Re: Negative study on saturated fat? Any thoughts?

[Guest guest]

Roman I didn't get your analogy in any way shape or form.

That aside, I completely disagree with the notion that one substance

could even " possibly " be responsible for the better health of a

culture and could counteract an alleged dangerous and illness

producing dietary staple.

This is the same kind of " logic " or lack of logic that spawned

the " magic bullet " theories. Both my observations and experience is

that you get the most out of what you do the most.

This gives me some memory of one of the few valuable things actually

did learn in Chiropractic college. A professor in my freshman year

said... " Lot's of things are possible, few things are probable,

before you start worring about the possibles make sure you've covered

the probables. "

Yes its possible that saturated fat is a artery clogging and heart

killing substance that is only counterbalanced by some unusual bark

tea found in some remote forest. That is in fact possible. However

the probability is that it ain't true. The probability is actually

so small that one might consider it not possible when the amount of

sat fat consumed by the Masai is actually taken into account.

The drug and supplement magic culture has " educated " us to " believe "

that you can do everything wrong and there may be a magical

chemical/substance to avery the reaction to your action. Bottom line

is it just ain't so.

Can substances blunt the stress effects of certain negative actions?

Certainly. But the notion of " for every action... " most certainly

applies in this analysis.

DMM

>

> > @@@@@@@@@@@ Chris:

> >

> >>Additionally, we don't even have to show what kept them healthy,

we simply

> >>need to show that one can eat loads of saturated fat and have no

proportionate

> >>increase in CHD-- which the Masai did.

> >

> > @@@@@@@@@@@@@

> >

> > yes! that's the key logic. and the idea that a minor component

of

> > the diet could counteract a strong negative impact of saturated

fat,

> > given the quantities involved, is pretty implausible.

>

> Not implausible to me. I am sure you could come up with a few

example of very powerful substances, be it from plants or synthetic

chemicals. There are plant compounds very small amounts of which

could kill you very quickly or make you hallucinate for a long time,

for example. I think it's reasonable to admit a possibility of

existence of very healing substances as well. Not claiming that,

but... couldn't the tea contain substances that dilate vessels, thin

blood, remove plaque, and/or heal diseases arterial walls. I don't

want my words to be misinterpreted as a statement that the tea Masai

drink does all or any of these things. I am talking about a

possibility. Powerful chemicals aren't taken in large amounts (that

what makes them powerful).

>

> Based on the above, I disagree that Chris' logic is necessarily

correct. Not to repeat myself, I will use a metaphor. You'll probably

agree that, in general, leaving your doors and windows open,

increases your chances of being robbed. But if you keep a guard with

a machine gun by each window and door (in addition to 7 snipers at

the roof), your chances of being robbed goes down dramatically.

>

> Roman

[Guest guest]

>>>but... couldn't the tea contain substances that dilate vessels, thin

blood, remove plaque, and/or heal diseases arterial walls.

--->i dunno...maybe. but since saturated fat doesn't cause arterial plaque

or " diseased arterial walls " , it's moot in the context of this discussion.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

How many grassfed eating, raw milk drinking, organic food swillin',

lacto fermenting folk have you come across who routinely drink vodka

and shoot heroin? I'd suggest that in reality, at least the one I

live in the folks who are shooting heroin or drinking vodka daily

are generally NOT eating or living particularly well and their

health will in all " probability " reflect what they do MOST.

DMM

>

> > This is the same kind of " logic " or lack of logic that spawned

> > the " magic bullet " theories. Both my observations and experience

is

> > that you get the most out of what you do the most.

>

> Dr. Marasco,

>

> You would be right if you were comparing things of similar power.

But this logic fails when dealing with radically different things,

in terms of power. For example, if you drink 8 or 10 glasses of

water a day and eat normal size meals, then a glass or two of vodka

a day would be a minor thing. Yet, you'd probably find yourself

feeling your liver in a pretty short time. Or... if you had a couple

of shots of heroin a day, I am pretty sure you'd have some

significant negative effects too, even though this would be a minor

thing in your life, compared to drinking various beverages and

eating food.

>

> Just to be clear, please don't take it that I claim that SF's are

harmful. I was merely commenting on someone else's arguments. It's

partly a philosophical discussion.

>

> Roman

[Guest guest]

Hmm. I for one would be hammered after a " glass or two " of vodka and perhaps

on the way to the hospital. On the other hand, a moderate dose of vodka, say

a shot after a meal, I doubt would produce much liver damage to speak of.

Chris

[Guest guest]

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

> Hmm. I for one would be hammered after a " glass or two " of vodka and perhaps

> on the way to the hospital. On the other hand, a moderate dose of vodka, say

> a shot after a meal, I doubt would produce much liver damage to speak of.

A friend of a relative of mine drinks a bottle a day (probably one that is 3/4

quart or so) and is reportedly still healthy (he's over 40 now and has been

drinking like this for years).

Roman

[Guest guest]

Dr. Marasco wrote:

> How many grassfed eating, raw milk drinking, organic food swillin',

> lacto fermenting folk have you come across who routinely drink vodka

> and shoot heroin? I'd suggest that in reality, at least the one I

> live in the folks who are shooting heroin or drinking vodka daily

> are generally NOT eating or living particularly well and their

> health will in all " probability " reflect what they do MOST.

I think I failed to convey my point clearly enough. Perhaps, I should be more

careful when using metaphors. You seem to have taken it literally.

There are *VERY* powerful herbs, DMM, at least in reality I live in. So, a minor

dietary ingredient could more powerful than pounds of regular food. And that was

the point of my metaphor.

Roman

[Guest guest]

The information in that abstract is completely useless and quite

misleading.

You can find some numbers from the study at:

http://www.junkscience.com/images/transtab.gif

This data doesn't support the conclusions of the abstract.

Anyway, the data is pretty useless in the first place, since they used

food questionaires (how often did you eat how much of a particular

item) and then made guesses at what the food actually contained (and

how much was really consumed - it wasn't measured or anything). The

data is far too coarse-grained (i.e. polyunsaturated fat is not broken

out).

One thing, you may be able to conclude from the data is that trans

fats are not good, especially if you consider that the trans fat

consumption of the study group was a lot lower than average (compared

to the whole US population). But then, there is likely a correlation

between sugar consumption and trans fat intake. So, even here I would

be careful with any conclusion.

--

> Someone gave me this link to a pubmed study with a negative review

> concerning saturated fat. Is it flawed? It seems quite convincing to

> me- but I don't know what to think anymore!

>

>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=

Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=9366580 & dopt=Abstract

>

> -

[Guest guest]

,

Your post is very much appreciated!! I was looking for someone to find

the actual flaw in the study at hand. Do you mind if I copy/paste your

response to the person who originally sent me the study?

Cheers!

-

> > Someone gave me this link to a pubmed study with a negative review

> > concerning saturated fat. Is it flawed? It seems quite convincing to

> > me- but I don't know what to think anymore!

> >

> >

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=

> Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=9366580 & dopt=Abstract

> >

> > -