Re: O.T. Tribunals/Evidence

[Guest guest]

Hi Vicky,

As parents now applying for LEA funding for our VB programme, we feel exactly the same despair as you. We've hired the top ed psychs, etc and are forking out a fortune in preparation for a possible tribunal. If it is any consolation, the government does recognise the conflict of interest inherent in a system that gives the LEA the burden of responsibility to provide for our children but forces them to do so within deficient budgets. There are proposals to reverse the budgeting system to a zero based budget which means the needs will determine the financial allocations rather than the financial allocations determining the needs (as is the case now).

This is all stated in the House of Commons Educational and Skills Committee Special Education Needs report 2005-2006.

The paper also recognised that tribunals can cost upwards of £18,000 for the parents and that only those with absolute bloodymindedness and dogged determination will successfully advocate for their children. The paper also recognises the socio-economic disparity among those kids who get help and those who don't. They recognise that successful parental advocacy for SEN kids is almost exclusively the domain of the middle classes.

Of course, this doesn't change anything for us right now, but reading the paper did help us to understand that the lunacy of the current system (which is indeed Kafkaesque as you have described!) is recognised by government bodies.

The publication can be found here: but be warned - it's an 147 page document.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmeduski/478/478i.pdf

I don't know if that's any consolation to you at all...

Hope it goes well, keep going, it's hard work, we know. We've just submitted our propsal today.

Regards,

Darla

In a message dated 11/09/2006 12:17:53 GMT Standard Time, MaddiganV@... writes:

Spoke to the solicitor this morning, with regards 's tribunal.She tells me I will need not only independent witnesses and herself but a Barrister also.Apparently I am asking County to stump up half a million pounds in education for the next 8yrs, so be prepared to pay the equivalent of a small car, which is beginning to sound more like a Porsche every day!What I just can't get my head round is all this sending psyche's and ed psyches plus SLT into the school to prove he can't do what they say he can when bringing him into the tribunal himself does the job far more effectively.We have the same thing when fighting for funding from PCT's why doesen't evidence from the best witness available count for anything?What's the score with ABA funding don't parents have to prove it is working in order to receive the funding yr on yr, and if they do then why are schools and LEA's not accountable in the same way?Seriously hacked off now at the complete injustice of it all, seems to me autistic children really need to be born into only the wealthiest of families.Vicky

[Guest guest]

Hi Margaret, I tried for legal aid before, but apparently not entitled, we seem to fall into that bracket where without being wealthy we are deemed wealthy enough.

I should imagine she is the best because if I find her intimidating and I'm the client Lord only knows what her opponents must feel, and I'm not easily intimidated.

Going to the school on Wednesday, must mail you offlist as something was said that led me to believe you have certainly had an impact in one quarter.

Vicky

xx

[Guest guest]

Thanks Margaret I do get the high rate DLA.

I can see both points of view on the whole solicitor issue, it would be really helpful if the first consult could be arranged as a 20-30 minute schedule and if not exactly free then maybe half the normal hourly rate, so parents could discover if they have a good case before they get too involved financially.

I think if we knew the oputcome was pretty much guaranteed it would make a huge difference, our tribunal is set for the fortnight around 11th Dec, so if god forbid we lose and have spent all that money it's going to be one heck of a miserable xmas.

Actually I don't know what I'll do if we do lose because the thought of sending back to his school after xmas is really gut wrenching, the place is just an adequate child minding service in my opinion, and he really is at a point now where he can learn, can't bear to lose any more time.

Ofcourse there is always Dorset in the long term but I don't want him to lose another minute, the emotional cost is really as always far higher than the financial one.

Vicky

[Guest guest]

The solicitor is Melinda Nettleton SEN Legal.

If you do a search under SEN Legal it should come up, if not post back and I will find the web address.

Vicky

[Guest guest]

The solicitor should be able to tell you if they deal with legal aid.

It won't matter what your earnings are though if you have over a certain amount of equity in your house.

Vicky

[Guest guest]

Dear Vicky,

I'm afraid the solicitor is merely being realistic.LEAs won't spend

money unless they are compelled to, and the way to compel them is

the Tribunal.

There may be some sources of charitable funding to help a bit with

costs if you are on a low enough income ; I guess your solicitor

would know about these, but basically, you're going to have to find

the money if you want to get the Tribunal to name an independent

school.

Although I have been lucky enough to have some Legal Aid because I

am on benefits, it actually doesn't cover very much and I am having

to find about £4K myself. At least you know you have a cracking good

solicitor - quite a few people think she's the best.

Margaret

>

> Spoke to the solicitor this morning, with regards 's tribunal.

> She tells me I will need not only independent witnesses and

herself but

> a Barrister also.

> Apparently I am asking County to stump up half a million pounds in

> education for the next 8yrs, so be prepared to pay the equivalent

of a

> small car, which is beginning to sound more like a Porsche every

day!

> What I just can't get my head round is all this sending psyche's

and

> ed psyches plus SLT into the school to prove he can't do what they

say

> he can when bringing him into the tribunal himself does the job

far

> more effectively.

> We have the same thing when fighting for funding from PCT's why

> doesen't evidence from the best witness available count for

anything?

> What's the score with ABA funding don't parents have to prove it

is

> working in order to receive the funding yr on yr, and if they do

then

> why are schools and LEA's not accountable in the same way?

> Seriously hacked off now at the complete injustice of it all,

seems to

> me autistic children really need to be born into only the

wealthiest of

> families.

> Vicky

>

[Guest guest]

Dear

Margaret and Vicky,

It definitely helps me to look on the

bright side. At least we have found a way to get some of the money together to

help our kids. As for injustice, it couldn’t be more injust – it STINKS!

I can’t stand the thought of all these bloodsucking barristers, etc

making a living out of our misery and our kids’ misfortune. Then again, I’m

glad they’re there. What a world! What a life!

Sara

Re: O.T. Tribunals/Evidence

Dear Vicky,

I'm afraid the solicitor is merely being realistic.LEAs won't spend

money unless they are compelled to, and the way to compel them is

the Tribunal.

There may be some sources of charitable funding to help a bit with

costs if you are on a low enough income ; I guess your solicitor

would know about these, but basically, you're going to have to find

the money if you want to get the Tribunal to name an independent

school.

Although I have been lucky enough to have some Legal Aid because I

am on benefits, it actually doesn't cover very much and I am having

to find about £4K myself. At least you know you have a cracking good

solicitor - quite a few people think she's the best.

Margaret

>

> Spoke to the solicitor this morning, with regards 's tribunal.

> She tells me I will need not only independent witnesses and

herself but

> a Barrister also.

> Apparently I am asking County to stump up half a million pounds in

> education for the next 8yrs, so be prepared to pay the equivalent

of a

> small car, which is beginning to sound more like a Porsche every

day!

> What I just can't get my head round is all this sending psyche's

and

> ed psyches plus SLT into the school to prove he can't do what they

say

> he can when bringing him into the tribunal himself does the job

far

> more effectively.

> We have the same thing when fighting for funding from PCT's why

> doesen't evidence from the best witness available count for

anything?

> What's the score with ABA funding don't parents have to prove it

is

> working in order to receive the funding yr on yr, and if they do

then

> why are schools and LEA's not accountable in the same way?

> Seriously hacked off now at the complete injustice of it all,

seems to

> me autistic children really need to be born into only the

wealthiest of

> families.

> Vicky

>

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[Guest guest]

Vicky do you get higher rate care and mobility DLA for your son? If

not, phone up today and get the claim pack. if you get it awarded,

it will be backdated to the date of your phone call. It's worth

about £5K a year and is non-taxable.

Margaret

Also do you get Invalid Care Allowance (basically, you won't if

you're in paid work)? And does your OH get all the right tax

credits - they're at a higher level if you have a disabled child or

children?

Good luck,Margaret

>

> Hi Margaret, I tried for legal aid before, but apparently not

entitled, we

> seem to fall into that bracket where without being wealthy we are

deemed

> wealthy enough.

> I should imagine she is the best because if I find her

intimidating and I'm

> the client Lord only knows what her opponents must feel, and I'm

not easily

> intimidated.

> Going to the school on Wednesday, must mail you offlist as

something was

> said that led me to believe you have certainly had an impact in

one quarter.

> Vicky

> xx

>

[Guest guest]

Sara, I don't see the lawyers who work in this field in that light

at all. Many could make more money in other areas of the law. The

good ones have a fire in their bellies when it comes to helping our

children.

The more junior barristers are often prepared to work for a lower

fee than normal. My Legal Aid solicitor is heavily out of pocket on

my case - the Legal Aid Board only allowed £1K to the firm and I

guess they've easily spent double that.

Margaret

> >

> > Spoke to the solicitor this morning, with regards 's

tribunal.

> > She tells me I will need not only independent witnesses and

> herself but

> > a Barrister also.

> > Apparently I am asking County to stump up half a million pounds

in

> > education for the next 8yrs, so be prepared to pay the

equivalent

> of a

> > small car, which is beginning to sound more like a Porsche every

> day!

> > What I just can't get my head round is all this sending psyche's

> and

> > ed psyches plus SLT into the school to prove he can't do what

they

> say

> > he can when bringing him into the tribunal himself does the job

> far

> > more effectively.

> > We have the same thing when fighting for funding from PCT's why

> > doesen't evidence from the best witness available count for

> anything?

> > What's the score with ABA funding don't parents have to prove it

> is

> > working in order to receive the funding yr on yr, and if they do

> then

> > why are schools and LEA's not accountable in the same way?

> > Seriously hacked off now at the complete injustice of it all,

> seems to

> > me autistic children really need to be born into only the

> wealthiest of

> > families.

> > Vicky

> >

>

>

>

>

> --

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>

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08/09/2006

>

[Guest guest]

She is in the process of getting a legal aid franchise don't know when she will have it though.

Vicky

[Guest guest]

I heard a lawyer speak recently who advised you can bring the action

in the child's name, rather than the parent. The child has no assets

or income so qualifies for legal aid.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, could i be nosey and ask who this fearsome solicitor is

please?

We are in the process of going thro reassessment to change schools

from maintained to independent and could very well need someone

scarey on our side!!!

TIA, Nikki

>

> Dear Vicky,

> I'm afraid the solicitor is merely being realistic.LEAs won't

spend

> money unless they are compelled to, and the way to compel them is

> the Tribunal.

At least you know you have a cracking

good

> solicitor - quite a few people think she's the best.

>

> Margaret

[Guest guest]

How do

you find out if you qualify for legal aid? Who do you contact? We are also

going to tribunal soon and it is crippling us (and the rest of my family)

Sara

Re: O.T. Tribunals/Evidence

Sara, I don't see

the lawyers who work in this field in that light

at all. Many could make more money in other areas of the law. The

good ones have a fire in their bellies when it comes to helping our

children.

The more junior barristers are often prepared to work for a lower

fee than normal. My Legal Aid solicitor is heavily out of pocket on

my case - the Legal Aid Board only allowed £1K to the firm and I

guess they've easily spent double that.

Margaret

> >

> > Spoke to the solicitor this morning, with regards 's

tribunal.

> > She tells me I will need not only independent witnesses and

> herself but

> > a Barrister also.

> > Apparently I am asking County to stump up half a million pounds

in

> > education for the next 8yrs, so be prepared to pay the

equivalent

> of a

> > small car, which is beginning to sound more like a Porsche every

> day!

> > What I just can't get my head round is all this sending psyche's

> and

> > ed psyches plus SLT into the school to prove he can't do what

they

> say

> > he can when bringing him into the tribunal himself does the job

> far

> > more effectively.

> > We have the same thing when fighting for funding from PCT's why

> > doesen't evidence from the best witness available count for

> anything?

> > What's the score with ABA funding don't parents have to prove it

> is

> > working in order to receive the funding yr on yr, and if they do

> then

> > why are schools and LEA's not accountable in the same way?

> > Seriously hacked off now at the complete injustice of it all,

> seems to

> > me autistic children really need to be born into only the

> wealthiest of

> > families.

> > Vicky

> >

>

>

>

>

> --

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08/09/2006

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

,

I'm afraid that doesn't work for Tribunal cases: it's the parent

(s)/legal guardians who have to be the Appellants.

margaret

>

> I heard a lawyer speak recently who advised you can bring the action

> in the child's name, rather than the parent. The child has no assets

> or income so qualifies for legal aid.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sara,

2 things: first you have to be on Income Support or virtually so

(rules are complicated).Second: you have to find a solicitor with a

legal aid franchise for education law. (I have a couple in my

address book). Melinda Nettleton does not have a Legal Aid franchise.

Margaret

> > >

> > > Spoke to the solicitor this morning, with regards 's

> tribunal.

> > > She tells me I will need not only independent witnesses and

> > herself but

> > > a Barrister also.

> > > Apparently I am asking County to stump up half a million

pounds

> in

> > > education for the next 8yrs, so be prepared to pay the

> equivalent

> > of a

> > > small car, which is beginning to sound more like a Porsche

every

> > day!

> > > What I just can't get my head round is all this sending

psyche's

> > and

> > > ed psyches plus SLT into the school to prove he can't do what

> they

> > say

> > > he can when bringing him into the tribunal himself does the

job

> > far

> > > more effectively.

> > > We have the same thing when fighting for funding from PCT's

why

> > > doesen't evidence from the best witness available count for

> > anything?

> > > What's the score with ABA funding don't parents have to prove

it

> > is

> > > working in order to receive the funding yr on yr, and if they

do

> > then

> > > why are schools and LEA's not accountable in the same way?

> > > Seriously hacked off now at the complete injustice of it all,

> > seems to

> > > me autistic children really need to be born into only the

> > wealthiest of

> > > families.

> > > Vicky

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

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> 08/09/2006

> >

> >

> >

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> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

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> 08/09/2006

> >

>

>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

On the subject of tribunals we have just has our tribunal today for

a statutory assessment of Philip. It is one stressful m*****f****r.

If we get through this stage, we have just done the easy bit (!!) as

I'm sure the LEA will contest what we want in any statement with

everything they've got.

Am interested to know whether anyone else knows of good solicitors

and barristers they would recommend.

I have heard Elaine Maxwell of Maxwell Gillott is good (based

Lancaster I think?) but would really appreciate any further info on

legal people....good, bad, indifferent.

Fingers crossed for all of us going through this shambles of a

process

Zoe

>

> The solicitor is Melinda Nettleton SEN Legal.

> If you do a search under SEN Legal it should come up, if not post

back and I

> will find the web address.

> Vicky

>

[Guest guest]

So sorry

to hear you’ve got to go to tribunal just to get a bloody statement! Lots

of luck and best wishes to you too! SARA

Re: O.T. Tribunals/Evidence

On the subject of

tribunals we have just has our tribunal today for

a statutory assessment of Philip. It is one stressful m*****f****r.

If we get through this stage, we have just done the easy bit (!!) as

I'm sure the LEA will contest what we want in any statement with

everything they've got.

Am interested to know whether anyone else knows of good solicitors

and barristers they would recommend.

I have heard Elaine Maxwell of Maxwell Gillott is good (based

Lancaster I think?) but would really appreciate any further info on

legal people....good, bad, indifferent.

Fingers crossed for all of us going through this shambles of a

process

Zoe

>

> The solicitor is Melinda Nettleton SEN Legal.

> If you do a search under SEN Legal it should come up, if not post

back and I

> will find the web address.

> Vicky

>

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[Guest guest]

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=941

The NAS may be able to help. This web page has details of our education

advocacy service. This is the bit that caaught my eye. I do not know if they

can provide a barrister but it is worth a shot.

Tribunal Support Scheme - 0845 070 4002

Volunteers provide telephone advice and information for parents who wish to

challenge the decision made by their local education authority (LEA) about

their child's educational needs and provision, at tribunal. Volunteer

caseworkers help parents lodge their appeal and prepare their case.

Representation at Tribunal: our alliance with Clifford Chance and Addleshaw

Goddard

Wherever possible, we aim to help families to represent themselves at

Tribunal through giving them advice and support in preparing their case and

identifying witnesses. However, there are always some situations where

families are unable to represent themselves.

As part of their pro bono and community affairs programme both Clifford

Chance and Addleshaw Goddard have formed an alliance with the Advocacy for

Education Service. Their role is to provide free legal representation, where

appropriate, for parents of children with an autistic spectrum disorder who

are challenging decisions made by their LEAs at Special Educational Needs

and Disability Tribunal. Clifford Chance also host all our volunteer

training.

Autism Treatment wrote:

> Dear Vicky,

> I'm afraid the solicitor is merely being realistic.LEAs won't

> spend money unless they are compelled to, and the way to compel them

> is the Tribunal. There may be some sources of charitable funding to

> help a bit with costs if you are on a low enough income ; I guess your

> solicitor would know about these, but basically, you're going

> to have to find the money if you want to get the Tribunal to name an

> independent school. Although I have been lucky enough to have some

> Legal Aid because I am on benefits, it actually doesn't cover very

> much and I am having to find about £4K myself. At least you know

> you have a cracking good solicitor - quite a few people think she's

> the best.

>

> Margaret

>

>

>>

>> Spoke to the solicitor this morning, with regards 's tribunal.

>> She tells me I will need not only independent witnesses and herself

>> but a Barrister also. Apparently I am asking County to stump up half

>> a million pounds in education for the next 8yrs, so be prepared to

>> pay the equivalent of a small car, which is beginning to sound more

>> like a Porsche every day! What I just can't get my head round is all

>> this sending psyche's and ed psyches plus SLT into the school to

>> prove he can't do what they say he can when bringing him into the

>> tribunal himself does the job far more effectively. We have the same

>> thing when fighting for funding from PCT's why doesen't evidence

>> from the best witness available count for anything? What's the score

>> with ABA funding don't parents have to prove it is working in order

>> to receive the funding yr on yr, and if they do then why are schools

>> and LEA's not accountable in the same way? Seriously hacked off now

>> at the complete injustice of it all, seems to me autistic children

>> really need to be born into only the wealthiest of families. Vicky

>>

>

--

Mike Stanton

Let's make autism a happy place :-)

http://mikestanton.wordpress.com

[Guest guest]

Zoe

I've also heard that Elaine is very good - we nearly used her four

years ago. But then we got our statement. I am flabbergasted that

you need to go to tribunal to get a statement. Jeesh.

We used GP, Ed Psych, Paediatrician, Speech therapist, primary

school (nursery unit), headteacher of nursery school (great asset)

to write Tom's support info for a statement. We were lucky to get

them all on side (but Tom had lost so many skills by this stage we

were all genuinely frightened, it was very stark).

Good luck - this seems like utter madness to me

Steph xxx

> >

> > The solicitor is Melinda Nettleton SEN Legal.

> > If you do a search under SEN Legal it should come up, if not

post

> back and I

> > will find the web address.

> > Vicky

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Zoe,

We used Elaine Maxwell 6 years ago, she was very good and we won

against West yorkshire LEA. She had 3 (?) children of her own who had

various special needs. Let me know if you want any more information,

though I think thinks have changed dramatically if you need to go to

tribunal in order to get a statment!

Good luck ,

.

> > >

> > > The solicitor is Melinda Nettleton SEN Legal.

> > > If you do a search under SEN Legal it should come up, if not

> post

> > back and I

> > > will find the web address.

> > > Vicky

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I tried using the NAS Tribunal advice people 4 1/2 years ago. I

don't recommend it, but of course it may have improved since then.

It took 2 weeks from the initial phone call to hear back from

someone who then gave poor advice. I gave up and went back to IPSEA.

IPSEA, while much better (I persuaded Sally Capper to help with the

Statement of Case and she is the author of the IPSEA publication on

the Tribunal) couldn't help with eith expert reports or with

advocacy. Had I had the money it is possible I would have got Henry

a home programme at the age of 2. As it stands, I only achieved more

minor aims: speech therapy, music therapy.I really wish I had had a

barrister. I did have a volunteer representative from Resources for

Autism, but she hardly opened her mouth and didn't challenge the

other side's evidence.

The trouble with using pro bono trainees from Clifford Chance and

the like is that they are training to be commercial solicitors and

are most unlikely to have an interest in education law. They are

also inexperienced as advocates - which is why they volunteer to do

Tribunals.

The big costs are solicitor's preparation time, instructing experts

and getting their reports and then calling them as witnesses. It

actually doesn't cost an enormous amount to use a junior barrister

on the day, but I think the situation remains that a member of the

public can't hire a barrister - you have to go through a solicitor

who does it for you. We have 4 expert reports this time and 2 paid

expert witnesses, as well as a barrister.

Margaret

>

> http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=941

> The NAS may be able to help. This web page has details of our

education

> advocacy service. This is the bit that caaught my eye. I do not

know if they

> can provide a barrister but it is worth a shot.

>

> Tribunal Support Scheme - 0845 070 4002

>