Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 >Heidi, > >I was able to follow your suggestion and saw how to make kefiili. >But I have another questions. Once the kefiili is made is it best to >refrigerate it or not? I wasn't sure if I understood what you said. >I read that it becomes thicker when refrigerated. I always refrigerate it. If you leave it out it gets thin and sour -- which might be what you want, on occasion. Dom leaves kefir out for a week after which it gets all kinds of neat growths and smells etc. >And if you don't mind my asking, how do you know all this stuff? >What is your background? All your recipes seem to be coming from >someone with much experience in nutrition and nutritious cooking (or >not). I'm flattered. I'm just a Mom who has to cook a lot. I did a fair bit of biology as a kid and in college, and I read Cooks magazine and fermenting books. I started growing bacteria when I was about in 3rd grade though -- I'd put out water with grass in it and put the resulting scum under the microscope, then I graduated to " yeastie beasties " (yeast and flour in various combinations) with little balloons to watch the CO2 production. My goal in life was to be a microbiologist like my aunt, but I quit college because I got sick (with what I now know was gluten intolerance, but it took another 20 years to figure that out). When I met my husband he was into beer and wine making, so kefir and kimchi was a natural next step. Since I can't eat gluten, we pretty much gave up on commercial foods. Also my son was born with " issues " and I had to learn how to feed him, so I do a lot of research. Since I have to cook everything from scratch, I've gotten fairly fast at throwing a meal together. My Mom was a good roll model that way though! >The kefiili I made from the starter I had turned out good and my >protein shake was very tasty. Great! What starter did you use? Are we talking kefiili or regular kefir? (i.e. if you had success with the " buttermilk method " I'd like to know for future reference). -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 > I'm flattered. I'm just a Mom who has to cook a lot. Just a mom... From what you say next, that sounds a little understated. I did a fair bit of biology > as a kid and in college, and I read Cooks magazine and fermenting books. > I started growing bacteria when I was about in 3rd grade though -- I'd > put out water with grass in it and put the resulting scum under the > microscope, then I graduated to " yeastie beasties " (yeast and flour in > various combinations) with little balloons to watch the CO2 production. > My goal in life was to be a microbiologist like my aunt, but I quit > college because I got sick (with what I now know was gluten > intolerance, but it took another 20 years to figure that out). > When I met my husband he was into beer and wine making, so kefir > and kimchi was a natural next step. > > Great! What starter did you use? Are we talking kefiili or regular kefir? (i.e. > if you had success with the " buttermilk method " I'd like to know > for future reference). I used kefiili that had been made from raw milk. I came home with a portion cup full. My raw milk was left out overnight and then I added the starter to the warmed raw milk at 3 to 1. Is that considered to be buttermilk? And I left it out all day until it was quite thick. I was told that with each new batch to just save a portion of it (about a third) to use as a starter for the next batch. I had a second portion cup full (I came home with 2 different ones) and mixed it today at 4 to 1 and it didn't seem to get as thick. I put it in the frig tonight thinking it would thicken up and it didn't. So it's back out on my kitchen counter. Don't know what will happend. Even if it doesn't get thick do you think I can still use it? Or does leaving it out, then refrigerating it, and then putting it back out again going to adversely effect it? Janice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 >Just a mom... From what you say next, that sounds a little >understated. What, most kids don't have a microscope? OK, I admit -- I was a nerd kid and now I'm a nerd Mom ;-) >I used kefiili that had been made from raw milk. I came home with a >portion cup full. My raw milk was left out overnight and then I >added the starter to the warmed raw milk at 3 to 1. Is that >considered to be buttermilk? And I left it out all day until it was >quite thick. Well, it is a SORT of buttermilk but not what I meant. I meant commercial buttermilk that has live cultures ... it's a quick and dirty way of getting some Leuconostoc Cremoris of the " gooey " kind. If you leave raw milk out, it will culture, and it might make a really good tasting culture, but it isn't the same as commercial buttermilk (which has the leuconostoc cremoris in it that makes kefiili " stringy " ). Usually people who sour milk though, just get raw milk and leave it out, they don't use it as a starter. Raw milk that gets thick is called " clabbered " and it can vary a bit from batch to batch, but it is very traditional. I'm not sure what would happen if you used it as a starter. There ARE cultures that work well as starters, but you have to " luck out " and get a good batch of bacteria. It is kind of like yeasts ... when someone gets a good sourdough going they share it and make backups, because some sourdough tastes better than others. The reason people use commercial buttermilk to make viili is that the commercial starter has the Leuconostoc Cremoris in it that happens to work well for viili. There might be 200 strains of LC! The LC I have I got from GEM cultures, and it seems to be a good one, but I've heard of people getting it successfully from buttermilk. I'll have to try the buttermilk method myself though, so I can compare. >I was told that with each new batch to just save a portion of it >(about a third) to use as a starter for the next batch. I had a >second portion cup full (I came home with 2 different ones) and mixed >it today at 4 to 1 and it didn't seem to get as thick. I put it in >the frig tonight thinking it would thicken up and it didn't. So it's >back out on my kitchen counter. Don't know what will happend. > >Even if it doesn't get thick do you think I can still use it? Or >does leaving it out, then refrigerating it, and then putting it back >out again going to adversely effect it? If you keep using some of the old " starter " for the new batch, eventually you will end up with " something " and it may be quite good, or not. It probably won't be toxic (if it smells bad, don't eat it). Are you using kefir grains? If you use kefir grains with milk, you will get kefir -- which is thin and sour, though it can be thicker and sweeter if you do half the ferment in the fridge (the hotter it gets, the sourer it gets). Kefiili made with viili culture+kefir grains seems to keep it's thickness from batch to batch. I take it in and out of the fridge all the time -- the " thick " bacteria seem to like the colder temps. I hope this isn't too confusing ... it is a LOT simpler to see it done. Someone told me I should host " fermenting workshops " so people can just do it. -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 Heidi (or anyone), Would the commercial buttermilk say on the box " live cultures " or leuconostoc cremoris? Thanks, Del > > >Just a mom... From what you say next, that sounds a little > >understated. > > What, most kids don't have a microscope? OK, I admit -- I was > a nerd kid and now I'm a nerd Mom ;-) > > > >I used kefiili that had been made from raw milk. I came home with a > >portion cup full. My raw milk was left out overnight and then I > >added the starter to the warmed raw milk at 3 to 1. Is that > >considered to be buttermilk? And I left it out all day until it was > >quite thick. > > > Well, it is a SORT of buttermilk but not what I meant. I meant > commercial buttermilk that has live cultures ... it's a quick > and dirty way of getting some Leuconostoc Cremoris of the > " gooey " kind. > > If you leave raw milk out, it will culture, and it > might make a really good tasting culture, but it isn't the > same as commercial buttermilk (which has the leuconostoc > cremoris in it that makes kefiili " stringy " ). > > Usually people who sour milk though, just get raw milk > and leave it out, they don't use it as a starter. Raw milk that > gets thick is called " clabbered " and it can vary a bit from > batch to batch, but it is very traditional. I'm not sure what > would happen if you used it as a starter. > > There ARE cultures that work well as starters, but you have > to " luck out " and get a good batch of bacteria. It is kind > of like yeasts ... when someone gets a good sourdough going > they share it and make backups, because some sourdough > tastes better than others. The reason people use commercial > buttermilk to make viili is that the commercial starter > has the Leuconostoc Cremoris in it that happens to work > well for viili. There might be 200 strains of LC! The LC I > have I got from GEM cultures, and it seems to be a good > one, but I've heard of people getting it successfully from > buttermilk. I'll have to try the buttermilk method myself > though, so I can compare. > > > >I was told that with each new batch to just save a portion of it > >(about a third) to use as a starter for the next batch. I had a > >second portion cup full (I came home with 2 different ones) and mixed > >it today at 4 to 1 and it didn't seem to get as thick. I put it in > >the frig tonight thinking it would thicken up and it didn't. So it's > >back out on my kitchen counter. Don't know what will happend. > > > >Even if it doesn't get thick do you think I can still use it? Or > >does leaving it out, then refrigerating it, and then putting it back > >out again going to adversely effect it? > > If you keep using some of the old " starter " for the new batch, > eventually you will end up with " something " and it may be > quite good, or not. It probably won't be toxic (if it smells bad, > don't eat it). Are you using kefir grains? If you use kefir grains > with milk, you will get kefir -- which is thin and sour, though > it can be thicker and sweeter if you do half the ferment in > the fridge (the hotter it gets, the sourer it gets). > > Kefiili made with viili culture+kefir grains seems to keep > it's thickness from batch to batch. I take it in and out of > the fridge all the time -- the " thick " bacteria seem to like > the colder temps. > > I hope this isn't too confusing ... it is a LOT simpler to > see it done. Someone told me I should host " fermenting > workshops " so people can just do it. > > -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 >Heidi (or anyone), >Would the commercial buttermilk say on the box " live cultures " or >leuconostoc cremoris? >Thanks, >Del I don't know. I should go to the store and check, and try it myself ... I've heard of people doing it, but have not tried it myself. Also I'm not sure it will be an accurate experiment, because my kitchen is full of viili spores probably ... -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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