Re: Carotene, Radiation &amp; Thyroid

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol

cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -

-

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at

Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg & cmd=Retrieve & db=Pu

> ----------------------------

August 30, 2003

In a message dated 8/30/03 11:36:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ----->again, i have to ask why? what information do you have the suggests

> that carotenes that the body uses for other functions (other than vit. A

> precursors) is somehow dangerous?

To add a further point to this discussion, carotenes are generally almost

worthless as a vitamin A source anyway, and the vast majority of carotenes in

the

diet of someone with a healthy and present thyroid will not be converted to

vitamin A, so I would expect a healthy thyroid person and a person absent a

thyroid to have similar needs to avoid the carotenes, were there such a need,

right?

Chris

August 30, 2003

>>>>Dear Suze, While a lot of the information you provided is very

beneficial, suggesting carotene may have adverse implications when

there is increased radiation exposure.

-------->how?

and how could one possibly avoid consuming carotenes since they are

ubiquitous in the human food chain? including in milk, butter, and cream

from grass-fed animals, as well as in the animal's body fat, in egg yolks,

plus in most (or all?) fruits and veggies.

>>>>Thyroid Disorders - The Most Obvious And Pronounced Health Effect Of

The Chernobyl Radiological Disaster: E.M.Parshkov, A.F.Tsyb,

V.A.Sokolov, V.V.Shakchtarin, I.V.Chebotareva, Medical Radiological

Research Center of Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, Obninsk,

Russia.

Click here for abstract.

And since I do not have a thyroid I know from www.about.thyroid.com

that my body cannot convert beta carotene to vitamin A, so I have to

avoid most, or all sources of it.

----->again, i have to ask why? what information do you have the suggests

that carotenes that the body uses for other functions (other than vit. A

precursors) is somehow dangerous? that just doesn't make sense to me

especially since some of the carotenoids play vital functions in our bodies

other than as vit. A precursors (all cartenoids are not vit. A precursors,

btw). the role of lutein and zeaxanthin in macular health would be one

example of a vital function of cartenoids aside from their usefulness as

vit. A precursors. the macular pigment is composed mainly of these two

carotenoids. see:

bMed & list_uids=11361022 & dopt=Abstract also, diets high in lutein are

associated with lower macular degeneratoin.

everything i've read to date indicates it is not dangerous to consume more

carotenoids than your body can convert to vit. A, likely because they have

other functions in the body. if you have info to the contrary, please do

share it.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

August 30, 2003

>>>>Dear Suze, While a lot of the information you provided is very

beneficial, suggesting carotene may have adverse implications when

there is increased radiation exposure.

------>whoops...forgot to mention in my previous post that this statement

totally contradicts what i posted. carotenoids have, in fact, been found to

be *protective* against UV radiation damage, which was the whole point of my

first post. and that not only goes for carotenoids that increase melanin,

but also for lutein and zeaxanthin that protect the macula against UV

radiation. there is reams of info on the role of carotenoids in protecting

against UV radiation (don't know about other types of radiation, but

radiation causes free radical formation and carotenoids act as antioxidants

against free radicals...so i'd guess they're effective against other types

of radiation.), so it is important that you post some evidence to support

your statement that contradicts this, if you have any. not trying to be

argumentative, just being skeptical ;-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

August 30, 2003

Suze, There's nothing wrong with skepticism. It's healthy and makes

us all back up our statements. Thanks.

Bee

> >>>>Dear Suze, While a lot of the information you provided is very

> beneficial, suggesting carotene may have adverse implications when

> there is increased radiation exposure.

>

> ------>whoops...forgot to mention in my previous post that this

statement

> totally contradicts what i posted. carotenoids have, in fact, been

found to

> be *protective* against UV radiation damage, which was the whole

point of my

> first post. and that not only goes for carotenoids that increase

melanin,

> but also for lutein and zeaxanthin that protect the macula against

UV

> radiation. there is reams of info on the role of carotenoids in

protecting

> against UV radiation (don't know about other types of radiation, but

> radiation causes free radical formation and carotenoids act as

antioxidants

> against free radicals...so i'd guess they're effective against

other types

> of radiation.), so it is important that you post some evidence to

support

> your statement that contradicts this, if you have any. not trying

to be

> argumentative, just being skeptical ;-)

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol

cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -

-

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at

Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/9/vegetarianism_myths_04.htm

> ----------------------------

August 30, 2003

Dear Suze, Vitamin A and beta-carotene are not the same thing: see

Myth #4: The body's needs for vitamin A can be entirely obtained from

plant foods.

Vitamin A, or retinol and its associated esters, is only found in

animal fats and organs like liver (26). Plants do contain beta-

carotene, a substance that the body can convert into vitamin A if

certain conditions are present (see below).

Beta-carotene, however, is not vitamin A. It is typical for vegans

and vegetarians (as well as most popular nutrition writers) to say

that plant foods like carrots and spinach contain vitamin A and that

beta-carotene is just as good as vitamin A. These things are not true

even though beta-carotene is an important nutritional factor for

humans.

The conversion from carotene to vitamin A in the intestines can only

take place in the presence of bile salts. This means that fat must be

eaten with the carotenes to stimulate bile secretion. Additionally,

infants and people with hypothyroidism, gall bladder problems or

diabetes (altogether, a significant portion of the population) either

cannot make the conversion, or do so very poorly.

Lastly, the body's conversion from carotene to vitamin A is not very

efficient: it takes roughly 6 units of carotene to make one unit of

vitamin A. What this means is that a sweet potato (containing about

25,000 units of beta-carotene) will only convert into about 4,000

units of vitamin A (assuming you ate it with fat, are not diabetic,

are not an infant, and do not have a thyroid or gall bladder problem)

[27].

Relying on plant sources for vitamin A, then, is not a very wise

idea. This provides yet another reason to include animal foods and

fats in our diets. Butter and full-fat dairy foods, especially from

pastured cows, are good vitamin A sources, as is cod liver oil.

Vitamin A earned its name from the fact that it was the first vitamin

discovered. Researchers in the 1930s described vitamin A as the " anti-

infective vitamin " as it is intimately involved in the health of the

mucous membranes and in fighting off infections.

Since its discovery, vitamin A has been shown to be pivotal in

several bodily functions: formation of " visual purple " which allows

us to see partially in low light; maintenance of healthy vision and

proper eye function; repair and maintenance of epithelial tissues,

especially those of the skin and mucous membranes; maintenance of the

endocrine system, espeically the thyroid gland; proper utilization of

dietary proteins; and stimulation of the thymus gland, a major part

of the immune system.

Radiation destroys the thyroid. That's how I lost mine. Also, see

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=8925035 & dopt=Abstract

[The probable sequelae of thyroid damage from radioactive iodine

during the Chernobyl accident][Article in Russian]Poverennyi AM,

Shinkarkina AP, Vinogradova IuE, Beziaeva GP, Podgorodnichenko VK,

Tsyb AF.

An important peculiarity of the Chernobyl catastrophe is the

discharge into the atmosphere of tremendous amount of radioactive

iodine and, as a result, selective damage of the thyroid in children

from the affected areas. The most dangerous consequence is the

thyroid cancer. The analysis of the situation when children's

thyroids were subjected to irradiation shows that tumors can most

frequently develop as late as 20-30 years after irradiation. There

are reasons to believe that tumors are induced by low dose of

irradiation. The most important factor in development of pathologies

is for sure the age of the children of the moment of irradiation. A

well-known consequence of the impact of radiation on the thyroid is

the lymphocyte thyroiditis. The interest to this pathology is

determined by the fact that it substantially increases the

probability of development of various haematologic diseases (lympho-

and myeloproliferative neoplasms).PMID: 8925035 [PubMed - indexed for

MEDLINE]

http://foodsupplements.homestead.com/ABETACAROTENE.html

Conversion to Vitamin A requires Vitamin C, zinc, protein and thyroid

hormones.

Bee

> >>>>Dear Suze, While a lot of the information you provided is very

> beneficial, suggesting carotene may have adverse implications when

> there is increased radiation exposure.

>

> ------>whoops...forgot to mention in my previous post that this

statement

> totally contradicts what i posted. carotenoids have, in fact, been

found to

> be *protective* against UV radiation damage, which was the whole

point of my

> first post. and that not only goes for carotenoids that increase

melanin,

> but also for lutein and zeaxanthin that protect the macula against

UV

> radiation. there is reams of info on the role of carotenoids in

protecting

> against UV radiation (don't know about other types of radiation, but

> radiation causes free radical formation and carotenoids act as

antioxidants

> against free radicals...so i'd guess they're effective against

other types

> of radiation.), so it is important that you post some evidence to

support

> your statement that contradicts this, if you have any. not trying

to be

> argumentative, just being skeptical ;-)

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol

cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -

-

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at

Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/9/vegetarianism_myths_04.htm

> ----------------------------

August 31, 2003

Bee,

I know this was addressed to Suze but since I share the same skepticism over

the idea that carotenes are harmful if you can't convert them and I know we're

both aware of the poor conversion of carotenes, I'd like to jump in and say I

don't see what bearing the Mercola article has on the potential harm of

carotenes.

If anything, I'd say it supports the other view, that carotenes would *not*

be harmful, as it shows that any normal and healthy person with all organs in

tact will have plenty of carotenes in the diet that do not convert, to no

negative effect on health.

Chris

In a message dated 8/30/03 4:27:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

bwilder@... writes:

> Dear Suze, Vitamin A and beta-carotene are not the same thing: see

> Myth #4: The body's needs for vitamin A can be entirely obtained from

> plant foods.

>

> Vitamin A, or retinol and its associated esters, is only found in

> animal fats and organs like liver (26). Plants do contain beta-

> carotene, a substance that the body can convert into vitamin A if

> certain conditions are present (see below).

>

> Beta-carotene, however, is not vitamin A. It is typical for vegans

> and vegetarians (as well as most popular nutrition writers) to say

> that plant foods like carrots and spinach contain vitamin A and that

> beta-carotene is just as good as vitamin A. These things are not true

> even though beta-carotene is an important nutritional factor for

> humans.

>

> The conversion from carotene to vitamin A in the intestines can only

> take place in the presence of bile salts. This means that fat must be

> eaten with the carotenes to stimulate bile secretion. Additionally,

>

> infants and people with hypothyroidism, gall bladder problems or

> diabetes (altogether, a significant portion of the population) either

> cannot make the conversion, or do so very poorly.

>

> Lastly, the body's conversion from carotene to vitamin A is not very

> efficient: it takes roughly 6 units of carotene to make one unit of

> vitamin A. What this means is that a sweet potato (containing about

> 25,000 units of beta-carotene) will only convert into about 4,000

> units of vitamin A (assuming you ate it with fat, are not diabetic,

> are not an infant, and do not have a thyroid or gall bladder problem)

> [27].

>

> Relying on plant sources for vitamin A, then, is not a very wise

> idea. This provides yet another reason to include animal foods and

> fats in our diets. Butter and full-fat dairy foods, especially from

> pastured cows, are good vitamin A sources, as is cod liver oil.

>

> Vitamin A earned its name from the fact that it was the first vitamin

> discovered. Researchers in the 1930s described vitamin A as the " anti-

> infective vitamin " as it is intimately involved in the health of the

> mucous membranes and in fighting off infections.

>

> Since its discovery, vitamin A has been shown to be pivotal in

> several bodily functions: formation of " visual purple " which allows

> us to see partially in low light; maintenance of healthy vision and

> proper eye function; repair and maintenance of epithelial tissues,

> especially those of the skin and mucous membranes; maintenance of the

> endocrine system, espeically the thyroid gland; proper utilization of

> dietary proteins; and stimulation of the thymus gland, a major part

> of the immune system.

>

> Radiation destroys the thyroid. That's how I lost mine. Also, see

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

> cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=8925035 & dopt=Abstract

>

> [The probable sequelae of thyroid damage from radioactive iodine

> during the Chernobyl accident][Article in Russian]Poverennyi AM,

> Shinkarkina AP, Vinogradova IuE, Beziaeva GP, Podgorodnichenko VK,

> Tsyb AF.

>

> An important peculiarity of the Chernobyl catastrophe is the

> discharge into the atmosphere of tremendous amount of radioactive

> iodine and, as a result, selective damage of the thyroid in children

> from the affected areas. The most dangerous consequence is the

> thyroid cancer. The analysis of the situation when children's

> thyroids were subjected to irradiation shows that tumors can most

> frequently develop as late as 20-30 years after irradiation. There

> are reasons to believe that tumors are induced by low dose of

> irradiation. The most important factor in development of pathologies

> is for sure the age of the children of the moment of irradiation. A

> well-known consequence of the impact of radiation on the thyroid is

> the lymphocyte thyroiditis. The interest to this pathology is

> determined by the fact that it substantially increases the

> probability of development of various haematologic diseases (lympho-

> and myeloproliferative neoplasms).PMID: 8925035 [PubMed - indexed for

> MEDLINE]

>

> http://foodsupplements.homestead.com/ABETACAROTENE.html

>

> Conversion to Vitamin A requires Vitamin C, zinc, protein and thyroid

> hormones.

>

> Bee

>

" To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are

to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. " --Theodore

Roosevelt

August 31, 2003

>>>>The body synthesizes its own caretonoids as well.

-------->*really*??? wow...i did not know that. from what? what are the

precursors?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/9/vegetarianism_myths_04.htm

----------------------------

August 31, 2003

>>>>Dear Suze, Vitamin A and beta-carotene are not the same thing: see

Myth #4: The body's needs for vitamin A can be entirely obtained from

plant foods.

----------->bee, i'm fully aware of this. but this has nothing to do with

the information i posted about carotenoids, UV radiation and melanin. the

info i posted is about *other* functions of carotenoids.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/9/vegetarianism_myths_04.htm

----------------------------

August 31, 2003

Dear do you have any more information on the body synthesizing

its own caretonoids?

I don't know if this is related but I am stumped about something.

Years ago I recall how healthy it was to allow the sun to reflect

directly on the iris of the eye because it creates a vital nutrient.

It was recommended that people who wear eye glasses or contact lenses

take them off for this purpose. I thought it was lutein, or some

similar nutrient, but I cannot find anything on it.

Bee

> The body synthesizes its own caretonoids as well.

>

> Chris

>

August 31, 2003

Dear Suze, Maybe I misunderstood your original post but I thought

you were recommending carotenoid supplement and carotenoid-rich foods

before and during the months while tanning to provide protective from

burning. My posts were simply that " some people " cannot take

carotenoid as a protective measure when tanning, i.e. thyroid

deficient people and others.

Other information on sunscreen, etc. indicate there is no need to

take supplements if you gradually expose yourself to the sun because

your skin will produce melanin.

" The Sun & Sunscreen " http://www.mercola.com/2000/oct/15/sunscreen.htm

" Staying out of the sun early on in the season and limiting your

exposure until your system adjusts by increasing melanin pigmentation

in your skin. "

There is nothing wrong with carotenoid per se, but for most people it

is not necessary because they do not convert it to Vitamin A

properly, and can do the same thing with gradual exposure to the

sun. And the purpose of taking carotenoid supplements is to obtain

Vitamin A, when there are good food sources of Vitamin A without

having to convert carotene to Vitamin A.

Cheers, Bee

> >>>>Dear Suze, Vitamin A and beta-carotene are not the same thing:

see

> Myth #4: The body's needs for vitamin A can be entirely obtained

from

> plant foods.

>

> ----------->bee, i'm fully aware of this. but this has nothing to

do with

> the information i posted about carotenoids, UV radiation and

melanin. the

> info i posted is about *other* functions of carotenoids.

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol

cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -

-

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at

Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> ----------------------------

August 31, 2003

Dear My post was not intended to portray carotenes as being

harmful, but to merely indicate that some people cannot convert them

properly, so they could not avail themselves to the remedy Suze

suggested. Also, in the same vein I provided alternatives to prevent

burning from the sun, like gradually exposing oneself to the sun to

build up melanin on the skin like carotenes do.

You are right. I agree that a normal person would be fine on

carotenes and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. Because I

don't have a thyroid I knew about the problems of conversion, and

wanted to offer useful information on it. Also it was a concern to

me because there are many people with undiagnosed thyroid problems,

especially women.

Do you agree that gradually exposing yourself to the sun to build up

melanin on the skin would be a simplier and cheaper method than than

taking carotene supplements, unless you were taking carotene

supplements for it's other benefits?

Take good care, Bee

> Bee,

>

> I know this was addressed to Suze but since I share the same

skepticism over

> the idea that carotenes are harmful if you can't convert them and I

know we're

> both aware of the poor conversion of carotenes, I'd like to jump in

and say I

> don't see what bearing the Mercola article has on the potential

harm of

> carotenes.

>

> If anything, I'd say it supports the other view, that carotenes

would *not*

> be harmful, as it shows that any normal and healthy person with all

organs in

> tact will have plenty of carotenes in the diet that do not convert,

to no

> negative effect on health.

>

> Chris

August 31, 2003

In a message dated 8/31/03 12:51:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> -------->*really*??? wow...i did not know that. from what? what are the

> precursors?

Acetyl CoA-->3 HMG-CoA-->Mevalonate-->Carotenes

Statins block the conversion of 3 HMG-CoA to Mevalonate, and therefore stop

carotene synthesis, along with CoQ10, squalene, and cholesterol.

From Rosch's WAPF conference lecture.

Chris

August 31, 2003

Bee,

We must have had some miscommunication. I thought you said supplementing

carotenes could have adverse effects without the thyroid or with increased

radiation. By the way, I think you misunderstood Suze, as the effects she were

noting were from unconverted carotenes, not vitamin A.

I think the gradual exposure to sun and carotenes would be good

complimentary, but I don't see the point of buying a carotene supplement. Eat

carrots and

dark green veggies, egg yolks, and cook with palm oil and with the latter

alone you'd get enormous amounts of superiorly absorbed carotenes and with all

together you'd have more than enough. If you want more carotenes, you should

buy

palm oil as your supplement, since it can displace other fats in your diet

and would therefore be far more cost-effective.

Chris

In a message dated 8/31/03 9:54:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

beewilder@... writes:

> Dear My post was not intended to portray carotenes as being

> harmful, but to merely indicate that some people cannot convert them

> properly, so they could not avail themselves to the remedy Suze

> suggested. Also, in the same vein I provided alternatives to prevent

> burning from the sun, like gradually exposing oneself to the sun to

> build up melanin on the skin like carotenes do.

>

> You are right. I agree that a normal person would be fine on

> carotenes and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. Because I

> don't have a thyroid I knew about the problems of conversion, and

> wanted to offer useful information on it. Also it was a concern to

> me because there are many people with undiagnosed thyroid problems,

> especially women.

>

> Do you agree that gradually exposing yourself to the sun to build up

> melanin on the skin would be a simplier and cheaper method than than

> taking carotene supplements, unless you were taking carotene

> supplements for it's other benefits?

" To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are

to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. " --Theodore

Roosevelt

August 31, 2003

In a message dated 8/31/03 11:15:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

beewilder@... writes:

> I don't know if this is related but I am stumped about something.

> Years ago I recall how healthy it was to allow the sun to reflect

> directly on the iris of the eye because it creates a vital nutrient.

> It was recommended that people who wear eye glasses or contact lenses

> take them off for this purpose. I thought it was lutein, or some

> similar nutrient, but I cannot find anything on it.

Bee,

I believe the connection would be that lutein will protect the macula from

harmful effects of radiation. The radiation will have positive effect of

stimulating certain glands behind the eye and make significant differences in

hormonoal balances, and people who wear glasses or contacts or sunglasses should

take them off to get UV exposure whenever possible.

Chris

September 1, 2003

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:33:24 -0400

" Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

> everything i've read to date indicates it is not dangerous to consume more

> carotenoids than your body can convert to vit. A, likely because they have

> other functions in the body. if you have info to the contrary, please do

> share it.

>

Yes, but is this true of carotenoid *supplementation* ? Getting them from

your diet is one thing, but is there a level where it becomes unsafe to

consume them as supplements, or maybe unsafe for certain people with

certain conditions, such as Bee is suggesting?

This isn't my thread but I am just curious.

September 1, 2003

> everything i've read to date indicates it is not dangerous to consume more

> carotenoids than your body can convert to vit. A, likely because they have

> other functions in the body. if you have info to the contrary, please do

> share it.

>

>>>Yes, but is this true of carotenoid *supplementation* ? Getting them from

your diet is one thing, but is there a level where it becomes unsafe to

consume them as supplements, or maybe unsafe for certain people with

certain conditions, such as Bee is suggesting?

This isn't my thread but I am just curious.

---->hehe...what...bee and i *own* this thread?? LOL. i thought they are all

*communal* threads? anyway, the only problem i'm aware of is when men

who*smoked* and drank alcohol in excess in a Finnish study and were

supplemented with *synthetic* beta-carotene, had a slight increase in lung

cancers. there may be other problems that i'm simply not aware of, but, i

would definitely stick with natural carotenoids, and i'd be sure to NOT

consume only one type, but rather a wide variety, as found in nature. i take

a supplement of mixed natural carotenoids, myself. also, my original

suggestion to jo was not intended to mean she should consume astronomically

large amounts, so it's kind of moot, at least in regards to my original post

about consuming carotenoid-rich foods and/or supplements to help protect

against UV damage.

it is a good question though, but, IIRC, i've read in a number of sources

that there is no known toxic level of natural carotenoids, as opposed to

these other fat-soluble nutrients that ARE known to have a toxicity ceiling

(ie; vit. A, vit D. etc).

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://www.herbalchem.net/Carotenoids_Introductory.htm

----------------------------

September 1, 2003

>>>>Acetyl CoA-->3 HMG-CoA-->Mevalonate-->Carotenes

Statins block the conversion of 3 HMG-CoA to Mevalonate, and therefore stop

carotene synthesis, along with CoQ10, squalene, and cholesterol.

From Rosch's WAPF conference lecture.

----->hmmm...that's odd. i've read elsewhere that humans (and animals in

general) cannot synthesize carotenes. a few examples below:

" Animals cannot synthesize carotenoids, but some can ingest them in the diet

and metabolically transform them into new variations. "

http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:OsdM_yKIYBwJ:aedes.biosci.arizona.edu/P

DFPapers/ref161.pdf+humans+synthesize+carotenes & hl=en & ie=UTF-8

Only plants and microorganisms synthesize carotenoids, so insects, like all

animals, must obtain them from their diets. "

also, the antioxidant researcher i mentioned previously - lester packer -

writes in " the antioxidant miracle " that animals must get carotenoids

through diet.

just ran across a thorne article that addresses what rosch was talking about

in regards to statins inhibiting mevalonate synthesis though:

http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:rgsmuo2-AUYJ:www.thorne.com/altmedrev/f

ulltext/squalene4-1.html+Mevalonate+carotene+human+synthesis & hl=en & ie=UTF-8

" The endogenous synthesis of squalene (see Figure 3) begins with the

production of 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A (HMG CoA). The initial

reduction of HMG CoA (a niacin-dependent reaction) results in the formation

of mevalonate. The enzyme involved in this reduction, HMG CoA reductase, has

been the target of a class of cholesterol-lowering drugs; however, since

these drugs reduce the formation of prenyl compounds, they also interfere

with the synthesis of CoQ10.1-3 "

i honestly don't understand the biochemistry involved here, but i'm

wondering how to reconcile this contradictory info on whether or not we

humans can synthesize our own carotenes.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

September 1, 2003

> I don't know if this is related but I am stumped about something.

> Years ago I recall how healthy it was to allow the sun to reflect

> directly on the iris of the eye because it creates a vital nutrient.

> It was recommended that people who wear eye glasses or contact lenses

> take them off for this purpose. I thought it was lutein, or some

> similar nutrient, but I cannot find anything on it.

>>>>>>I believe the connection would be that lutein will protect the macula

from

harmful effects of radiation.

-------->not only that, but part of the macula, called the " macula pigment "

is_composed_of (primarily) lutein as well as zeaxanthin and meso-zeaxanthin.

these carotenoids are actually *part* of our eyes!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

Re: Re: Carotene, Radiation & Thyroid

In a message dated 8/31/03 11:15:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

beewilder@... writes:

> I don't know if this is related but I am stumped about something.

> Years ago I recall how healthy it was to allow the sun to reflect

> directly on the iris of the eye because it creates a vital nutrient.

> It was recommended that people who wear eye glasses or contact lenses

> take them off for this purpose. I thought it was lutein, or some

> similar nutrient, but I cannot find anything on it.

Bee,

I believe the connection would be that lutein will protect the macula from

harmful effects of radiation. The radiation will have positive effect of

stimulating certain glands behind the eye and make significant differences

in

hormonoal balances, and people who wear glasses or contacts or sunglasses

should

take them off to get UV exposure whenever possible.

Chris

September 1, 2003

In a message dated 9/1/03 2:46:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> i honestly don't understand the biochemistry involved here, but i'm

> wondering how to reconcile this contradictory info on whether or not we

> humans can synthesize our own carotenes.

maybe we can synthesis some carotenes out of others, and that's what

" carotenes " was referring to in the chart I copied down from Rosch's lecture?

Chris

September 1, 2003

>>>>---->hehe...what...bee and i *own* this thread?? LOL. i thought they are

all

*communal* threads? anyway, the only problem i'm aware of is when men

who*smoked* and drank alcohol in excess in a Finnish study and were

supplemented with *synthetic* beta-carotene, had a slight increase in lung

cancers.

---->actually, there was another study that had similar results with

synthetic beta carotene. although i'm not aware of any studies that showed

negative results using *mixed* *natural* carotenoids.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

September 1, 2003

> i honestly don't understand the biochemistry involved here, but i'm

> wondering how to reconcile this contradictory info on whether or not we

> humans can synthesize our own carotenes.

>>>maybe we can synthesis some carotenes out of others, and that's what

" carotenes " was referring to in the chart I copied down from Rosch's

lecture?

----->i don't know...i'm really clueless on this one!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics