Re: Re: juicing--why avoid it?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/28/03 6:12:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

slethnobotanist@... writes:

> I would think that pot liquor (leftover water from cooked veggies)

> and/or juice from fermented plants would be far more useful on a regular

> basis. In fact on a number of long fasts I have used a concoction called

> potassium broth, which is a liquid made from *cooked* veggies.

Depending on what you were cooking, that sounds like a nice big mug of

oxalate tea.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:25:11 -0000

" paultheo2000 " <paultheo2000@...> wrote:

> ,

>

> Why avoid juicing?? Simply because it isn't traditional? The only

> disadvantage I see is the potentially increased glycemic index, which

> won't be too high anyway considering it's vegetable juicing...

>

> -

>

Hi ,

I can think of several reasons why I would avoid the modern penchant for

juicing.

1. It is in fact not traditional. And while that is not the be all and

end all of the matter, it is certainly something to take into

consideration. After all, this group is based in part on a book called

Nourishing *Traditions*

Many paleo folks reject juicing on the grounds that it was not technologically

feasible to juice, and whatever juice our forbears got would have been

from small amounts through grinding plants with their teeth. While I

agree with their conclusion about the lack of juicing, I do not agree

with how they arrived there. I'm not much on the paleo way of thinking

and reasoning but that is a topic for another time. Suffice it to say, I

think much of it meanders off into the realm of the highly speculative.

Nonetheless, many cultures have always had the means to make juice but

did not. Wherever there was a grain mill or the ability to make oil or

wine there was the ability to make juice. And even if the only

technology you had was your own feet you could still make juice from

soft fruit. Why didn't that occur? And when it did why did these folks

ferment their juice rather than drink it straight?

If this is such a healthy practice why didn't anyone before our time

adopt such a practice, even on an occasional basis?

2. When vegetable juicing is done as a regular thing, there is the

problem of concentrating the anti-nutrients. Yes juicing is a marvelous

way to increase the valuable constituents found in the plant, and it can

have great short term healing benefits, and there are lots of wonderful

stories about the power of juices and juice fasting (me included) but I

think with long term *regular* use you can run into some problems.

Now this may in fact be a problem related to modern agriculture in terms

of the amount of anti-nutrients available, but if it is, it is a big

problem and one not going away anytime soon.

There are a number of people on the live food list who were originally

quite enthusiastic juicers, but had to moderate their intake over time

as the regular consumption of juices became a problem.

3. The very large increase in sugar content is a problem. Nourishing

Traditions says we shouldn't drink fruit juice, but there are high sugar

veggies as well. The most prominent juice plant is carrot, and it is

very high in sugar, as are beets. Now don't get me wrong, I think

juicing can have a place in the modern diet, just not as a staple of the

diet.

IMO, juicing is in the same category as many herbs, something to be used

on an occasional or cyclical basis, but not as a staple dietary item.

4. It seems to me that the very problems we try to overcome by

fermenting or cooking vegetables/fruits are magnified by juicing. The

liberation of juice from the fiber, while concentrating many nutrients,

also removes many protective factors, as well as leaving behind many

nutritional factors as well. The Vita-Mix people have been using a

pretty good marketing campaign over the years about how much is actually

left behind by juicing (up to 91% of the nutritional factors according

to them): see http://tinyurl.com/lihz

or

http://www.vitamix.com/household/whats_new/brochures/Healing_and_Good_Health.pdf

I would think that pot liquor (leftover water from cooked veggies)

and/or juice from fermented plants would be far more useful on a regular

basis. In fact on a number of long fasts I have used a concoction called

potassium broth, which is a liquid made from *cooked* veggies.

In short, I think one can benefit from juicing therapeutically. It would

be silly to deny the anecdotal evidence of the fantastic results many

have received from such use. There is also the *clinical* experience of

the modern fasting clinics and some Doctors. But again that is a

cyclical/therapeutic use not a regular one. I have found juicing to be a

great support in fasting as well.

But as dietary staple? ly I think that is a modern fad which is

alive and well in the alternative health movement, and needs to be

examined a lot more closely.

[Guest guest]

> But as dietary staple? ly I think that is a modern fad which is

> alive and well in the alternative health movement, and needs to be

> examined a lot more closely.

bravo! Well done.

Lynn S.

-----

Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan

The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/

Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/

People-Powered ! http://www.deanforamerica.com/

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:45:39 EDT

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

> In a message dated 8/28/03 6:12:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> slethnobotanist@... writes:

>

> > I would think that pot liquor (leftover water from cooked veggies)

> > and/or juice from fermented plants would be far more useful on a regular

> > basis. In fact on a number of long fasts I have used a concoction called

> > potassium broth, which is a liquid made from *cooked* veggies.

>

> Depending on what you were cooking, that sounds like a nice big mug of

> oxalate tea.

>

> Chris

Ha!

I started to make a disclaimer to that effect. It does depend on what

you are cooking and most recipes for potassium broth do not use high

oxalate foods, although I doubt that is by design.

Recall Arnold

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/030812.shtml

[Guest guest]

>could still make juice from

>soft fruit. Why didn't that occur? And when it did why did these folks

>ferment their juice rather than drink it straight?

Probably one reason is for the same reason they drank most of their

milk fermented -- lack of refrigerators! If you juice grapes

and let them sit around, they are fermenting by the

next day, or, if you don't do it right, molding.

I have to say though that since I've been drinking a

fair bit of " kefir beer " , straight juice just seems

unappealing. Too sweet. My body definitely likes

the fermented version better. I can't speak to

vegie juices, though kimchi juice is much, much

more settling than any raw vegie or raw vegie juice

I've had.

-- Heidi