Re: Kefir expert questions

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

August 24, 2003

I would like to order some kefir grains from Dom and start making kefir but

i'm overwhelmed by his website. I was hoping it would be easy. Is it?

Elaine

August 24, 2003

>------->i think it would be rare exception for someone to actually get a

>grain lodged in their intestines and have it grow until it becomes

>problematic. i can only imagine someone with diverticulitis (crypts) could

>potentially get one lodged in a crypt. but for the vast majority of people,

>i don't see how a kefir grain could get " stuck " in the intestines - it

>should get pushed out as other food passes through the intestines.

I tend to think this goes with the urban legends of bubblegum,

black pepper, watermelon seeds, etc. getting " stuck. " I suppose it could

happen, as Suze says, with diverticulitis, but I watched a colonoscopy

once and was totally amazed at how clean the intestines actually

are! And pink! Further, kefir grains aren't the slightest bit sticky,

or sharp, and they don't attach to much of anything.

There are certain bacteria that glom onto the cell walls of the

intestine and colonize there, but in general this is considered

a good thing (the ones I've heard of doing that are useful

bacteria, in general). Kefir bacteria may do this, I don't know,

but it is a separate issue from the grains.

The grains are said to be made from kefiran, which is

a polysaccharide. Kefiran is a known anti-tumor agent,

and it is also present (I think) in thick kefir. The grains

may or may not be broken down by digestion, I don't

know -- certainly they are resistant to acid! But they

have been reported to have good health results when

eaten.

As for contamination -- kefiili DOES get thin under

some circumstances (heat, mainly, and airport scanners)

but all the results of " changed " kefir mainly had to do

with taste and texture. Mine hasn't changed except with

heat, and sour cream made from it lasts for MONTHS

without molding, and cookies etc. made from it don't

mold either. Experiments have been done using kefir

to kill e-coli on raw beef -- the e-coli lose.

There is also the very real (to me) issue of bacteriophages.

These are very common lifeforms that you never hear

about -- but they attack bacteria. Kefir seems to be

resistant to them. If you have a certain germ in YOUR

house, like a strain of staph, chances are there are

bacteriophages to that strain of staph in your house

too. The phages, I think based on experiments and reading,

live with the kefir colonies -- the colonies sort of " host "

them which helps protect the colony. Now when you drink

kefir from YOUR HOUSE, you get the antibodies, phages,

whatever, that the kefir is using to PROTECT ITSELF from

that staph. And it protects you too, and probably builds up

your own defenses to that staph too. You can only

get that kind of defense from probiotics that live WITH

you -- commercial cultures are grown very carefully in a closed

environment, and they are too wimpy to fight much of

anything.

In general the people I've heard talk about the " Dangers "

of kefir grains are the ones selling starter cultures.

It is abolutely true that kefir grains are dangerous

to people selling starter cultures ... they are self-replicating

which is totally against the " consumer " ethic. In the

last century we have switched from being *producers*

to being *consumers*, and people who grow kefir-grains

are producers.

The " Wild Fermentation " book has a whole lecture on

the " fear of germs " ethic too, as well as the idea

of having " exactly the same " result each time with

fermentation. To have absolutely constant results

in a ferment, you have to sterilize the medium and

use a commercial culture. But for some of us, that

is against the whole point of fermenting ...

I used to make " commercial " style beer, and I

may do it again someday. We bought lots of

ingredients, boiled the wort, added commercial

beer yeast, and were very careful about germs,

and got delicious beer, making the beer store

richer in the process. Took a couple of hundred

dollars worth of gear, plus $40 a batch, plus about

10 hours of my time.

Now I have a jar, with two " extra " kefir grains.

I add some water, some sugar, and some juice

from the berries in the yard. Wait a couple

of days, strain, and drink. It tastes different

every day, but it is wonderful ... and to me,

THAT is the difference between starting culture

and grains!

-- Heidi

August 24, 2003

I tend to think this goes with the urban legends of bubblegum,

black pepper, watermelon seeds, etc. getting " stuck. " I suppose it could

happen, as Suze says, with diverticulitis, but I watched a colonoscopy

once and was totally amazed at how clean the intestines actually

are! And pink!

--------->i'm sure some people already think i'm weird and this is not going

to help my case at all, but i have *felt* the inside of my chihuahua's

colon, and it *felt* squeaky clean! i don't normally stick my finger up my

dog's ass (honest!) but he had impacted twice around that time and was

having difficulty elminating, so i put my finger in to see if he had

impacted again, in which case i wanted to give him some lubricant ASAP. i

fed him too much bone at the time, which caused the impactions, and sure

enough when i put my finger up in there, i felt a hard, boney ball. now it's

possible that these hard balls were essentially scarping his intestines

clean, but i remember being surprised that it felt like sticking your finger

into a moist, smooth rubber hose. you know you read about how horrible

crusted toxic waste products accumulate in the intestines over time,

blocking nutrient absorption, causing disease, etc, etc, so it was pretty

cool to feel the inside of what felt like a squeaky clean colon ;-)

>>>>> The phages, I think based on experiments and reading,

live with the kefir colonies -- the colonies sort of " host "

them which helps protect the colony. Now when you drink

kefir from YOUR HOUSE, you get the antibodies, phages,

whatever, that the kefir is using to PROTECT ITSELF from

that staph. And it protects you too, and probably builds up

your own defenses to that staph too. You can only

get that kind of defense from probiotics that live WITH

you -- commercial cultures are grown very carefully in a closed

environment, and they are too wimpy to fight much of

anything.

----->this is a very good point. i wonder if kombucha colonies act in the

same way?

>>>Now I have a jar, with two " extra " kefir grains.

I add some water, some sugar, and some juice

from the berries in the yard. Wait a couple

of days, strain, and drink.

---->sorry, if you've already been asked, but what approx. ratios of each of

these do you use? and is it a *quart* jar?

------->sorry to be anal <wg>, but you forgot the closing tag forward slash.

</END OF RANT>

LOL!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://www.gemcultures.com

----------------------------

August 24, 2003

--- In , " Elaine " <itchyink@s...>

wrote:

> I would like to order some kefir grains from Dom and start making

kefir but

> i'm overwhelmed by his website. I was hoping it would be easy. Is

it?

> Elaine

Elaine

Go to his group /group/kefir_making and post a

request for grains on there. Either Dom or someone else near you

will be able to get you started

Jo

August 24, 2003

--- In , " Elaine " <itchyink@s...>

wrote:

> I would like to order some kefir grains from Dom and start making

kefir but

> i'm overwhelmed by his website. I was hoping it would be easy. Is

it?

> Elaine

------>i know at least one person posted that they had good luck with dom's

grains, but i know 2 or 3 others including myself who didn't have much luck

with dom's grains, but had fantastic luck with GEM's grains.

dom's are dried, GEM's are wet, and come in the milk, ready to go. i don't

know if that makes the difference or not.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

August 24, 2003

>I would like to order some kefir grains from Dom and start making kefir but

>i'm overwhelmed by his website. I was hoping it would be easy. Is it?

>Elaine

It is REALLY REALLY easy.

1. Put milk in jar.

2. Add grain

3. Wait a day or two

4. Remove grain (straining is easiest, for most folks)

Repeat.

Plus a few datails like covering the jar so the flies don't

get in. I swap between two containers -- I have kefiili

which is too thick to strain so I just scoop the

grains off the top.

-- Heidi

August 24, 2003

>--------->i'm sure some people already think i'm weird and this is not going

>to help my case at all, but i have *felt* the inside of my chihuahua's

>colon, and it *felt* squeaky clean!

After reading what the vets do in " All Creatures Great and Small " that

sounds downright normal ...

> ----->this is a very good point. i wonder if kombucha colonies act in the

>same way?

I think all probiotic cultures do, to some extent. Even plain ol'

sea water is FULL of phages, as are most rivers. The water most

of use use and bathe in is sterilized, which makes me wonder ...

my Mom's old doc used to say that to cure sinusitis, she

should go into the ocean (she lived on the beach) and swim

and snarf some salt water up her nose. But salt water never

worked for me. But MY salt water was just salt+water -- hers

was from the microbe-filled ocean! Kefir whey does kill

sinusitis though (just a tad in some water, for those who

try it: it is very acidic!).

Phages are the most common life form on earth,

and there is next to no research on them. I think they

are a real important part of how probiotics help people.

>>>>Now I have a jar, with two " extra " kefir grains.

>I add some water, some sugar, and some juice

>from the berries in the yard. Wait a couple

>of days, strain, and drink.

>

>---->sorry, if you've already been asked, but what approx. ratios of each of

>these do you use? and is it a *quart* jar?

It is a quart, and it's about 2 T sugar, half a cup of juice (berry juice

is very concentrated) and the rest water. Or all straight apple

juice. Or 3T concentrated frozen juice. It really doesn't matter,

just do it to taste. However, leave the lid on loose or use a

pressure-proof jar ... this is one of those that WILL make gas!

Plain mason jars with a tight lid are NOT recommended.

><END OF RANT>

>

>------->sorry to be anal <wg>, but you forgot the closing tag forward slash.

>

></END OF RANT>

>

>LOL!

Oh, you web programmers think you are hot stuff!

August 24, 2003

----- Original Message -----

From: " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...>

> <END OF RANT>

>

> ------->sorry to be anal <wg>, but you forgot the closing tag forward

slash.

>

> </END OF RANT>

You're thinking of XML. In HTML (Heidi's Text Markup Language?),

elements with no content (<br>, for example) are not required to have a

closing tag. In any case, it probably would have been more appropriate

to open with <rant intensity= " mild " topics= " cola kefir phages

fermentation " > and close with </rant>. Of course, the bit about kefir

could probably be inferred from the author.

August 24, 2003

That sounds doable, thanks heidi! One more question -- how do i preserve my

kefir grains if i don't want to use them for a while? Just keep making

kefir? Or can they sit in the same jar of milk for weeks on end?

Elaine

--

>> I would like to order some kefir grains from Dom and start making kefir but

>> i'm overwhelmed by his website. I was hoping it would be easy. Is it?

>> Elaine

>

> It is REALLY REALLY easy.

>

> 1. Put milk in jar.

> 2. Add grain

> 3. Wait a day or two

> 4. Remove grain (straining is easiest, for most folks)

> Repeat.

>

> Plus a few datails like covering the jar so the flies don't

> get in. I swap between two containers -- I have kefiili

> which is too thick to strain so I just scoop the

> grains off the top.

>

> -- Heidi

>

August 24, 2003

>> </END OF RANT>

>

>You're thinking of XML. In HTML (Heidi's Text Markup Language?),

>elements with no content (<br>, for example) are not required to have a

>closing tag. In any case, it probably would have been more appropriate

>to open with <rant intensity= " mild " topics= " cola kefir phages

>fermentation " > and close with </rant>. Of course, the bit about kefir

>could probably be inferred from the author.

Actually in the programming languages I use, we don't use

no stinking slashes. Or brackets! Hey, and in COBOL

you mark the end of a paragraph with a DOT ...... how

weird is that?

END.

August 24, 2003

>That sounds doable, thanks heidi! One more question -- how do i preserve my

>kefir grains if i don't want to use them for a while? Just keep making

>kefir? Or can they sit in the same jar of milk for weeks on end?

>Elaine

>--

If you put them in a jar of fresh milk and put the jar in the fridge,

they can last a LONG time. Kefiili thins out after a month or so,

but regular kefir can last longer. I just change the milk

after a month, or rotate the grains.

-- Heidi

August 25, 2003

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

> In a message dated 8/24/03 12:48:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> heidis@t... writes:

>

> > Remove grain (straining is easiest, for most folks)

>

> If you don't get them from Dom, you'll probably get a chunk instead

of a

> bunch of little ones. In that case, you can just spoon it out with

a plastic

> spoon, which is about 300 times easier than straining, in my

opinion.

>

> Chris

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

i second that!!! in the 200+ batches of kefir i've made so far, i've

never used a strainer. i just pick the grains out with chopsticks or

a wooden spoon or hold the chopsticks/spoon up against the mouth of

the jar with the grains and pour into another jar so the grains stay

behind in the first jar. if a tiny grain escapes my notice or

something, then it just gets drunk. i've grown very large chunks of

grains, maybe at least two or three tablespoons in volume. i could

never understand the *extensive* discussions of straining methods on

the kefir list when using a spoon is so much easier.

mike parker

August 25, 2003

----- Original Message -----

From: " Anton " <bwp@...>

> in the 200+ batches of kefir i've made so far, i've

> never used a strainer. i just pick the grains out with chopsticks or

> a wooden spoon or hold the chopsticks/spoon up against the mouth of

> the jar with the grains and pour into another jar so the grains stay

> behind in the first jar.

I just make a small hole with my mouth and sip the kefir out of the jar.

> if a tiny grain escapes my notice or something, then it just gets

drunk.

Mine have a 30% chance of being drunk and a 70% chance of being spit

back out. No one else drinks my kefir.

August 25, 2003

In a message dated 8/25/03 8:04:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> After reading what the vets do in " All Creatures Great and Small " that

> sounds downright normal ...

It's a funny coincidence because the night you posted that was right after I

watched " Serving Sara " with that guy that plays Chandler on Friends in it.

There was a part where he pretended he was a vet when they were sneaking around

on a Texas ranch, and they wanted him to " relieve the pressure on the

prostate " of this bull, which they were having trouble getting to mate with the

fake

cow so they could take his semen. So he had to stick his arm up there to his

shoulder!

Chris

August 25, 2003

--- In , " Elaine " <itchyink@s...>

wrote:

> That sounds doable, thanks heidi! One more question -- how do i

preserve my

> kefir grains if i don't want to use them for a while? Just keep

making

> kefir? Or can they sit in the same jar of milk for weeks on end?

> Elaine

> --

Elaine

YOu can keep them in milk in the fridge, changing the milk every 3-4

weeks.

Jo

August 25, 2003

>--------->i'm sure some people already think i'm weird and this is not

going

>to help my case at all, but i have *felt* the inside of my chihuahua's

>colon, and it *felt* squeaky clean!

After reading what the vets do in " All Creatures Great and Small " that

sounds downright normal ...

----->er ya...that's the ticket! i was just pretending i was a country vet

;-)

>>>> But MY salt water was just salt+water -- hers

was from the microbe-filled ocean! Kefir whey does kill

sinusitis though (just a tad in some water, for those who

try it: it is very acidic!).

----->i actually did try this based on your posts about it. but the

container i got doesn't " mist " it squirts a stream up your nostril. so i

kind of gag after i squirt. i've only used it a few times when i felt stuffy

and i think it did help a little.

><END OF RANT>

>

>------->sorry to be anal <wg>, but you forgot the closing tag forward

slash.

>

></END OF RANT>

>

>LOL!

>>>Oh, you web programmers think you are hot stuff!

----->maybe if i *were* a web programmer i'd think i was hot stuff, but i'm

actually a web *designer* - basically a graphic designer for the web :-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics