Re: RE: care of teeth and gums

[Guest guest]

At 11:02 PM 8/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>You use a special toothbrush with tiny hollow bristles

>that basically pipettes up debris that's in between your

>teeth and gums. The idea is that if you take away the

> " food " that allow the bad bacteria to grow, the good

>bacteria gain the upper hand, and plaque, gum disease

>and dental caries go away.

I am so glad to read about this. My experience has been that good bacteria

are preventing dental caries (and my dentist confirms that my teeth are in

excellent shape - first time in several decades). I find that I tend to

leave particles of grass-fed red meat in my mouth after eating without

worrying too much about brushing, etc. I've been doing that about 4 years

now. When I do brush it is just with water to mechanically remove the

largest pieces - with no intent to sanitize. Also I think dark green

vegetable juices seem to help the feeling in my mouth and I enjoy swishing

them around the teeth languishing the sensation.

I wonder, then, if certain foods might help the " good " bacteria along (I

certainly know that sugary foods and carbohydrates seem to help the " bad "

bacteria in my mouth). I tend toward eating in a paleo-style now.

Thanks for any insight on foods in the mouth.

Regards,

-=mark=-

[Guest guest]

>Thanks for any insight on foods in the mouth.

Mark - Are you completely 'off' processed sugar?

Processed sugar has the most extreme effect on the delopment of

plaque in my mouth!

-Allan

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry but this doesn't make much sense to me. Also, I'm surprised that

Price-Pottenger would promote this theory of dental hygeine, since it is

basically the opposite of Price's findings, and Meinig, who is basically

the

PPNF dental guy, has expressed the opinion that dental decay is largely an

internal problem, rather than one of feeding or not feeding bacteria in the

mouth.

I first question the idea that there are " good bacteria " and " bad bacteria "

in the mouth which promote tooth decay or prevent tooth decay depending on

their status as " good " or " bad. " Kefir, which is full of bacteria that are

" good "

for the gut, contains S. Fecalis, which is the number one cause of tooth

decay in both Price's research and other research I've read of. So there is no

clear distinction between " good " and " bad " mouth bacteria. If there is, than

that means they sometimes have the opposite status in the mouth as they do the

gut, which would mean that by eating a diet that " feeds good bacteria in the

mouth " you're eating a diet that's bad for your gut! Not a likely proposition.

Second, " good bacteria " secrete acids like all other bacteria-- take lactic

acid for example, or acetic acid. I really don't see how these acids could be

protective of tooth decay. An acid is an acid-- the acidic part of the acid

is the H+ ion, the other part of the acid only determines how acidic the acid

is-- i.e. how many H+ ions will disociate. Teeth are primarly made up of

calcium carbonate-- CaCO3 -- (unless you take fluoride, they are made of Calcium

Fluoride, Ca(F)2) and the H+ ions will have an affinity for the carbonate no

matter what acid they came from. Which will ionize and free the calcium from

the

teeth.

Third, I'm not sure how you can differentiate between foods that feed " good "

and " bad " bacteria. Most foods feed both-- which is why someone who consumes

FOS might feed good bacteria like Bifidus while another might feed

Clostridium. Quite a few folks in Price's foundings consumed starches regularly

without

brushing their teeth, and starches certainly feed bad bacteria no matter how

they are prepared, if the bad bacteria are there to eat them, and it is at

least arguable that the more grains you consume-- however they're prepared--

beyond a certain reasonable amount, will lead to fungal overgrowths or some

other

gut problems. Yet the Swiss Price ate such foods and didn't clean their teeth

whatsoever, which were so dirty they had a green " slime " coating them, yet

they didn't get tooth decay.

So the much more likely explanation of why both of you are able to let your

dental hygeine slump while you are eating well is the same one that Price

offered, and Melvin Page after him-- tooth decay is primarily an internal

problem.

What primarily determines whether the acids secreted by bacteria in your

mouth will cause decay is not what kind of acid it is or what bacteria secreted

it, but the condition of your teeth based on the vitamins, minerals, and

cofactors in your diet.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/6/03 5:37:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> Normally you make so much saliva that your mouth can

> balance its PH pretty quickly. It is food held next to the teeth

> that tends to form cavities, it seems.

>

Heidi,

Good point. This may or may not be semantics, but food does not cause

cavities. If anything the bacteria do, but it seems quite clear the exact

opposite

dynamic is at work-- poorly nourished teeth cause cavities. And while I don't

think it would be perfectly correct to say so, I think it would be *more*

accurate to say that cavities cause the bacteria than that bacteria cause the

cavities.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>Second, " good bacteria " secrete acids like all other bacteria-- take lactic

>acid for example, or acetic acid. I really don't see how these acids could be

>protective of tooth decay.

I tend to agree, but there is a company researching a probiotic toothpaste.

I posted the link some time ago but can't find it now. Anyway, their

claim is that some bacteria prevent the plaque forming bacteria

from attaching to the teeth. Not all bacteria form plaque -- but once

the plaque forms, it holds the acids etc. next to the teeth. So the plaque

bacteria is " bad " in the sense it forms plaque.

Normally you make so much saliva that your mouth can

balance its PH pretty quickly. It is food held next to the teeth

that tends to form cavities, it seems.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

HP kills everything. Dip and rinse b4 using

Amy

Re: care of teeth and gums

While we're on the subject -- Does anyone have suggestions for

ensuring bacteria do not stay on your toothbrush?

Daphne (feeling paranoid these days)

> Heidi,

>

> Good point. This may or may not be semantics, but food does not

cause

> cavities. If anything the bacteria do, but it seems quite clear

the exact opposite

> dynamic is at work-- poorly nourished teeth cause cavities. And

while I don't

> think it would be perfectly correct to say so, I think it would be

*more*

> accurate to say that cavities cause the bacteria than that bacteria

cause the

> cavities.

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

>Heidi,

>

>Good point. This may or may not be semantics, but food does not cause

>cavities. If anything the bacteria do, but it seems quite clear the exact

opposite

>dynamic is at work-- poorly nourished teeth cause cavities. And while I don't

>think it would be perfectly correct to say so, I think it would be *more*

>accurate to say that cavities cause the bacteria than that bacteria cause the

>cavities.

>

>Chris

You are quite right, it isn't the food itself (except perhaps lemon juice).

And that is an interesting point ... my teeth are much better off than

they were, and they are " smoother " -- the bacteria don't stick so

easily. Semantically I guess the correct thing to say would be something

about bacterial byproducts being held in close proximity to poor

tooth enamel?

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>While we're on the subject -- Does anyone have suggestions for

>ensuring bacteria do not stay on your toothbrush?

>

>Daphne (feeling paranoid these days)

If you are REALLY paranoid they have these little

gadgets with an ultraviolet light that sit there

and sterilize your brush as it sits!

If you use baking soda, it is a non-issue, the baking

soda residue will kill most anything. As will salt. At

least it will kill the things you want killed.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/7/03 1:57:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

amyleewaters@... writes:

>

> HP kills everything. Dip and rinse b4 using

>

Amy,

It kills *everything*? I thought it only killed anaerobic organisms. This

is the logic I've read presented by folks who support rinsing with HP. How

does it kill aerobic organisms?

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/7/03 7:44:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ---->if i'm not mistaken you are sounding more and more like aajonus

> vonderplatz daily! LOL

I'm not familiar with his theory, but in general I do not buy the idea that

bacteria do not cause disease. I think this has been proven incorrect. What

is also incorrect is that an association with bacteria indicates a causal role

for the bacteria.

I believe that sometimes bacteria are causal and sometimes they are nto.

In the case of tooth decay, gingivitis, and periodontitis, it seems

ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, that NONE of these diseases are actually caused by bacteria or

other

organisms, but they are all caused by poor nutrition.

In the etiology of plaque, what happens is a pellicle forms, which is a thin

layer of proteins and other stuff over the teeth, then bacteria come in and

feed off it. Eventually it gets mixed with food debris and all sorts of other

stuff. But a) the bacteria are not necessarily in the mouth before the onset

of the pellicle b)the food you eat is NOT the initial feeder of the bacteria

that adhere to the pellicle and c) the composition of the pellicle, the areas it

exists in, and the rate it is being formed at, affect the composition of

mouth bacteria, rather than the other way around apparently, which indicates

that

bacterial associations with tooth decay are not indicative of a causal role

for those bacteria, but rather that degrading your teeth and gums with poor

nutrition will cause the certain types of bacteria to proliferate who like to

eat

degraded tooth and gum tissue.

This is shown by the fact that CoQ10 supplementation is a fantastic remedy

for periodontal disease. Is it an anti-microbial? No, but it is essential for

gum health. You fix the problem from the inside out, and like magic the

bacteria go away.

This will not work for all periodontitis, but somewhere between 60-90% of

periodontal patients have gum tissues deficient in CoQ10. For them it should

work.

But Price's experiments and many after him demonstrate without a smidgeon of

a doubt that if dental disease progresses bacteria will have direct causal

role in many degenerative diseases. The only way to stop this progression is to

remove the infected tooth, its accompanying periodontal ligament, and some of

the diseased bone under it.

So for tooth decay, you can eliminate it by drinking raw milk, consuming bone

stocks, taking codliver oil and eating raw grass-fed butter, and appanrelty

you can do this while you are still eating foods that feed " bad " bacteria in

the mouth, which indicates that the bacteria are relatively irrelevant and that

nutrition is causal. Further, you can induce cavities by injecting sugar into

the stomachs of rats, which indicates sugars role is purely nutritional and

it's effect on mouth bacteria is relatively irrelevant.

On the other hand, to fix a systemic infection induced by a root canal or

dead tooth you have to remove the source of bacteria, which indicates the

bacteria are causal. Furthermore, you can take the tooth (i.e. source of

bacteria)

and implant it under the skin of the animal and induce the same disease, while

other non-infected agents do not cause the diease when implanted, and no

dietary changes are necessary to induce the disease, which clearly indicates the

bacteria are causal.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>>>>>Good point. This may or may not be semantics, but food does not cause

>cavities. If anything the bacteria do, but it seems quite clear the exact

opposite

>dynamic is at work-- poorly nourished teeth cause cavities. And while I

don't

>think it would be perfectly correct to say so, I think it would be *more*

>accurate to say that cavities cause the bacteria than that bacteria cause

the

>cavities.

---->if i'm not mistaken you are sounding more and more like aajonus

vonderplatz daily! LOL

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------