Defying reinforcement methods

[Guest guest]

Hi, I'm new to this list, and I found this list after deciding I had no

idea what to do about my almost-10-yr-old. He's verbal, and reads

well, but comprehension and conversation are still very weak. Our

biggest issue with him has been vocal, annoying behaviors. For two

years he screamed, not in tantrum but in a deliberate manner, sometimes

doing it and laughing when he made a sibling cry--he learned, in two

days in a poorly-managed school setting, that he could get all sorts of

reaction/attention from being loud, and even if teachers and parents

ignored it, if he was loud enough often enough he could make SOMEONE

jump or acknowledge it or something. (He has several younger siblings,

and I have yet to figure out how to tell a 2-yr-old how to do

extinction on a big brother.)

Over time, with a lot of token systems and work and a few drastic loss

of privileges (when he began to do it at a summer program he liked, I

instituted a zero-tolerance policy and would come pick him up if he

yelled even once) the screaming was brought under control. But he's

developed a whole bunch of annoying verbal behaviors, from yelling to

loud scripting to a doofy, " yucky voice " that can be disruptive in

school because it's grating and loud and timed to interrupt! A month

ago home and school got together on extinction for scripting and yucky

voice, while proactively encouraging nice talking, and after the usual

spike in negative behavior he did much better. He does have a pattern

of doing anything we tell him even casually he should not do.

But recently, he is deliberately doing exactly what he's not supposed

to, even when he is trying to earn some special privilege. Or he'll be

distraught over not getting to watch his movie or something else

because he was disruptive at the dinner table or at school, but when

given the chance to earn it back or earn some other neat thing by using

a nice voice, he will immediately use a yucky voice instead, very

deliberately, looking right at us (which is usually a good thing to

see!). It's as if he's determined to do what annoys those around him,

even if he loses out because of it, and even if he's ignored, and

despite the usual motivational techniques like attention for good

behavior, reinforcement, ignoring, etc.

I'm trying to figure out how to cope with this recent twist--for some

reason I feel like it should be obvious what's wrong, but maybe I'm too

frustrated to see it.

Thanks!

Sue F.

[Guest guest]

Sue Freivald wrote:

>

>

> But recently, he is deliberately doing exactly what he's not supposed

> to, even when he is trying to earn some special privilege. Or he'll be

> distraught over not getting to watch his movie or something else

> because he was disruptive at the dinner table or at school, but when

> given the chance to earn it back or earn some other neat thing by using

> a nice voice, he will immediately use a yucky voice instead, very

> deliberately, looking right at us (which is usually a good thing to

> see!). It's as if he's determined to do what annoys those around him,

> even if he loses out because of it, and even if he's ignored, and

> despite the usual motivational techniques like attention for good

> behavior, reinforcement, ignoring, etc.

It sounds like you may need to up your rate of reinforcement. He needs

to have about an 80% success in earning the reward. Below that there is

the chance that he will give up and just go for the intrinsic

reinforcement of being annoying.

R

[Guest guest]

Sue Freivald wrote:

>

>

> But recently, he is deliberately doing exactly what he's not supposed

> to, even when he is trying to earn some special privilege. Or he'll be

> distraught over not getting to watch his movie or something else

> because he was disruptive at the dinner table or at school, but when

> given the chance to earn it back or earn some other neat thing by using

> a nice voice, he will immediately use a yucky voice instead, very

> deliberately, looking right at us (which is usually a good thing to

> see!). It's as if he's determined to do what annoys those around him,

> even if he loses out because of it, and even if he's ignored, and

> despite the usual motivational techniques like attention for good

> behavior, reinforcement, ignoring, etc.

It sounds like you may need to up your rate of reinforcement. He needs

to have about an 80% success in earning the reward. Below that there is

the chance that he will give up and just go for the intrinsic

reinforcement of being annoying.

R

[Guest guest]

I should check to see how often he's actually making it to the reward

right now, that's true, thanks for the idea.

But even as he's racking up checks (because we know to make sure he can

earn them quickly enough) he'll just turn and look right at us and do

something inappropriate, getting worse until he hits the point when the

privilege is lost, period. So he isn't getting the reward as

frequently, but it's because of his change in behavior, not because the

rate he was at before wasn't yielding 80%, if that makes sense. And

up until about two weeks ago he was doing great on his various token

systems for months, earning computer time at school and shows at home

or other privileges and basking in everyone's praise. Then he began

doing exactly what he shouldn't constantly and going out of his way to

do it. HIs teacher told me today she's seeing defiant behavior that she

hasn't seen since last school year. If we lower the standards of

behavior by which he earns his privileges now by making it easier to

earn his rewards than it used to be, might we just teach him that he

can lower his standards of behavior and still get what he wants? Even

so, I have been trying to have him earn his rewards speedily this week,

but it's almost like he's refusing to earn them...

Sue F

On Apr 27, 2006, at 6:18 PM, wrote:

>

> It sounds like you may need to up your rate of reinforcement. He needs

> to have about an 80% success in earning the reward. Below that there

> is

> the chance that he will give up and just go for the intrinsic

> reinforcement of being annoying.

> R

[Guest guest]

Hello Sue, Is there a wide enough variety of options he is able to exchange his checks/points for? It could be that he is satiated (has grown tired of the offerings) and they have therefore lost their potency. It may be helpful at this point to reassess what he might enjoy as new options to trade his points in for. One way I track this with learners I work with is to periodically update my list of items/activities that they are reaching for, requesting, and using throughout the day. That way I have some fresh ideas on various things to include on the choice board or in exchange for tokens. Hope that helps! It might just be that right now there isn't anything potent enough that is being offered to him, so the negative adult interaction is the new "reinforcer". Best of luck! ~KarrieSue Freivald

<sue@...> wrote: I should check to see how often he's actually making it to the reward right now, that's true, thanks for the idea.But even as he's racking up checks (because we know to make sure he can earn them quickly enough) he'll just turn and look right at us and do something inappropriate, getting worse until he hits the point when the privilege is lost, period. So he isn't getting the reward as frequently, but it's because of his change in behavior, not because the rate he was at before wasn't yielding 80%, if that makes sense. And up until about two weeks ago he was doing great on his various token systems for months, earning computer time at school and shows at home or other privileges and basking in everyone's praise. Then he began doing exactly what he shouldn't

constantly and going out of his way to do it. HIs teacher told me today she's seeing defiant behavior that she hasn't seen since last school year. If we lower the standards of behavior by which he earns his privileges now by making it easier to earn his rewards than it used to be, might we just teach him that he can lower his standards of behavior and still get what he wants? Even so, I have been trying to have him earn his rewards speedily this week, but it's almost like he's refusing to earn them...Sue FOn Apr 27, 2006, at 6:18 PM, wrote:>> It sounds like you may need to up your rate of reinforcement. He needs> to have about an 80% success in earning the reward. Below that there > is> the chance that he will give up and just go for the intrinsic> reinforcement of being annoying.> R

[Guest guest]

I know denying/earning tv time for my son is a really big motivator...

or earning enough (stickers or check marks) to get a toy.

But I think sometimes words are " habits " and learned so its really good

for them to realize that it hurts peoples feelings.

[Guest guest]

Sue Freivald wrote:

If we lower the standards of

behavior by which he earns his privileges now by making it easier to

earn his rewards than it used to be, might we just teach him that he

can lower his standards of behavior and still get what he wants? Even

so, I have been trying to have him earn his rewards speedily this week,

but it's almost like he's refusing to earn them...

I don't want to sound like I think I know the answer because I don't but

I do have some comments. Look at this from the other direction. By

making the rewards very hard to earn (not that you are), you are

encouraging him to seek other, more easily obtained rewards. For

example, I want a new Cadillac and am saving up for it. I start out

great guns, putting away a big chunk of my pay check every week and

being thrifty in every way I can. At the end of 3 months, I don't even

have enough for a down payment and skipping Starbuck's and eating PB & J

is getting old. By the end of 6 months, I go out and get a used Chevy

because I just can't see myself ever saving enough for that Cadillac.

R

[Guest guest]

That's an excellent analogy. From MY perspective, I feel like he's

getting a ride in a Cadillac every day by washing it, but if he's

difficult and quits washing it he gets to ride in it twice every day

just for hitting the button to clean the windshields! But my

perspective is not the important one, I suppose.

It has not been hard to earn his rewards, though with the onset of

allergy season I think kids on the spectrum are often affected and he

has a more difficult time and I hadn't taken that into

consideration--he may be chafing more at these demands. But the post

on varying the reinforcers might be dead on--the past few days he's

talking about going to the library and bookstore non-stop, instead of

his usual reinforcers. Maybe we got way too routine about his rewards?

Maybe he's not motivated to put forth all the effort for the same old

things, or to have his compliance taken for granted (if that isn't

projecting too much adult thought onto a child?) At the very least,

I'm able to see more from his perspective than I could several days

ago, thanks to the input here, and am starting to brainstorm. (OK,

you're all brainstorming and leading me by the nose, and I'm very

grateful for it!)

Sue

On Apr 28, 2006, at 6:08 PM, wrote:

>

> I don't want to sound like I think I know the answer because I don't

> but

> I do have some comments. Look at this from the other direction. By

> making the rewards very hard to earn (not that you are), you are

> encouraging him to seek other, more easily obtained rewards. For

> example, I want a new Cadillac and am saving up for it. I start out

> great guns, putting away a big chunk of my pay check every week and

> being thrifty in every way I can. At the end of 3 months, I don't even

> have enough for a down payment and skipping Starbuck's and eating PB & J

> is getting old. By the end of 6 months, I go out and get a used Chevy

> because I just can't see myself ever saving enough for that Cadillac.

> R

[Guest guest]

Sue Freivald wrote:

But my

perspective is not the important one, I suppose.

And neither is mine. As you so wisely

noted, HIS is the only opinion that counts in this case. It is

recommended in ABA programs that one frequently evaluate reinforcers to

make sure that they are still as important to the subject (again as you

observed). And, as a life long allergy sufferer, I expect that point

is right on too. With such a mother, his problem is bound to be

solved.

R