Guest guest Posted October 27, 2001 Report Share Posted October 27, 2001 Was: Concentrated Loading and Delayed Training Effect Someone wrote: <<I was wondering how this type of " vibration training " should be incorporated in one's training. Could you provide an example of such a " stress workout? " >> Hobman wrote: <.... The vibration training is simply a person with two sticks drumming on the bar as I lift sub-maximal weights, which will also be done once per week....> Courtenay Schurman wrote: <With all the talk a few months back about vibration training and its potential assistance in speeding healing, I found our experiences with low-grade vibrations to be quite interesting.> Casler writes: <Vibration Training seems to be a viable training concept and it seems there has been a lot of parallel " thinking " going on. Many years ago before joining the lists, (in fact before I hadn't even heard of the internet) I had been working on the concept of " cyclic force " application system and a device for force controll to an exercise machine. (that patent issued in 1982 I think) Finally yesterday, I received word from the US Patent office that a device I had submitted will soon be a " granted " patent rights. This device is the heart of the BIO-FORCE Force application system. It allows a computer controlled application of forces to an exercise device. (not a new concept but this device does things other can't)> Mel Siff: *** At various Supertraining Camps I taught , Courtenay and many others a simply way of applying vibration training manually. You simply strike the bar with hands (like a skilled drummer) or a stick to impose a suitable degree of rhythmic or random vibration loading during various stages of a given lift to facilitate stronger production of the myotatic stretch reflex. I have also fitted high speed, large volume pumps in our deep jacuzzi so that we can impose strong pulsating water pressure on many muscle groups. Manual vibration loading is free and you can take it anywhere. For the jacuzzi method, you have to visit us in Denver! Casler: <In the general scheme of things, these machines we have designed have a " gravity based " Primary load, (weights or weight stack) coupled with this " patented device " which allows any type of " force overlay " desired. How does this relate to " vibration training " ?> Well, getting back to my original " cyclic force application " concept. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to track the general forces involved in weight training. Usually it is a mass/force/speed calculation which is not my area (I'm sure Mel will correct me here), but that is not the significant thing.> Mel Siff: *** Actually it is very difficult indeed to track forces, their transmission, attenuation and application from point to point and joint to joint multi-dimensionally in human biomechanics. The measurement of force in the form of soft tissue tension in various actions is even more daunting and well nigh impossible. Cyclical loading can create certain potentially serious problems because that can set up resonances in different subsystems and organs of the body, as I mentioned some months ago in earlier letters on this topic. Nobody is entirely sure about the long-term safety of such devices, especially in a commercial training facility. Until such time that scientists have proved the long term safety for a large population spectrum, I certainly would hesitate to allow the general public access to such devices. Casler: <This device allows either closed loop or open loop operation (which means it can be preset for forces curves, or it can provide forces based on a sensed force calculation during the exercise). How does this affect vibration training? Well, it would allow us to program in " ANY " cycle and amount of force we want at any place in the repetition eccentric or concentric. I wrote about this, some time ago when " vibration " training was a topic. My original concept was simple and came from two sources. 1) As unbeleivable as it sounds, (don't laugh) I used to do barbell squats on a haywagon pulled through a hay field at a rather high speed. I bet you haven't heard that one before. I was only 13 or 14 years old, but I wanted to do my leg routine while I worked on the farm. Talk about vibration and instability!!!! Very dangerous and probably much like " squatting " while skiing moguls. Some visual ehh? Did I ever mention the Bench Pressing the Amish Buggy routine? ( ; >V) 2) my second inspiration was based on the Bannister's 4 minute mile training concept. It was very simple. Bannister's concept was to run four one-minute 1/4 miles with a space in between them. He progressively reduced the space until they were run together. I chose to do the same thing, but by controlling the forces inside each rep. This means we could " cycle " a small force spike into small segements of each rep. This would allow us " over time " to adjust the valleys up to the " spikes " . Now with this invention, these cycles can be 10 cycles to a rep or 10,000 to a rep. If you want to get really out there realize that you can even program in " random " spikes within safety specifications (unlike my " haywagon " escapades which had no safety feature). The potential is very intriguing. The other " cool " aspect is the cycle can be of any force magnitude (within the capabilities of the device) desired. My original thinking (circa 1980 when I filed for the first version of this patent) was to provide a controlled " pulsing " force during the eccentric rep. This would provide some very interesting proprioceptive sensorimotor/force activity in the muscle. My thinking at the time was that since the greatest muscle tension forces seem to be experienced at the end of the stretch/shortening cycle, (and creating greater muscle tension was a goal of mine at the time) If I could create multiple SSC like cycles within a rep, it " might " be valuable. Mel Siff: *** Are you using the term " stretch-shortening " in its usual 'plyometric' sense or are you applying it to refer to the reflexive production of muscle tension in a typical flexion-extension exercise in the gym? If you are referring to the relationship of external joint torque to internal muscle tension, this is not true - while the largest torque may be produced at large joint angles, the lower mechanical advantage at smaller joint angles often means that muscle tension is greater there. In one of the sections of my PhD, I examined the relationship between muscle tension, EMG and joint angle, as did a later MSc student of mine and we found that this happened regularly in many resistance exercises. Casler: <It seems others have approached " vibratory stimlation " from the other direction. That is, they have started from providing " high frequency " vibrations that have certainly caused some interesting results. Luckily my patent allows the capability of frequency (and load) to be adjusted and controlled.> Mel Siff: *** Not exactly correct - various workers have been using a wide range of relatively low frequencies 9 as low as 1-3 Hz) and amplitudes of vibration, especially in military and occupational biomechanics settings for many decades. One can commercially purchase mechanical " actuators " or shakers, such as those which we have used in civil engineering research for many years. Only recently have Western strength scientists and coaches started picking up on some old Russian vibration research from the 1970s or so that was reported in the Soviet Sports Review a long time ago. Unfortunately, some of us on this list who would love to share some more details on this sort of training cannot do so yet because it is associated with original postgraduate or commissioned commercial research. Until then, we are compelled to talk in fairly broad generalisations, as you have. These are some of the reasons why I devised that simple and free " manual vibration facilitation " method to enable anyone to apply this method at any level they wish. In introducing that concept, I was simply expanding upon the repertoire of PNF (Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation) methods of muscle activation (some of these being summarised in Ch 7 of " Supertraininng " 2000). Casler: <I have been told that there are all types of devices from the " vibrating platform type " to the " vibrating device or bar " that offer some type of vibration. I find this type of training concept stimulating and feel that upon greater exploration it will yeild some incredible results in the future (especially now that there are devices- including mine - that allow these types of control) > Mel Siff: *** Some of the research has certainly shown some apparently large acute and short-term increases in strength and power, but results reported from prolonged or chronic use seem to suggest rapid habituation and much slower progress. Remember that vibration is but one of many different forms of neuromuscular facilitation, so we should temper our initial enthusiasm with a bit of patience. Casler: <This technology also offers some significant challenges. Of course it is easy to " bolt " this device on any number of strength machines " write up " some control software and " BAM " (was just watching Emeril) you have " cyclic/pulse/vibration force abilities. The challenge is to provide this ability in more complex machines (as many of you know, I am quite critical of most machines) that offer less restrictions and allow this technology to be applied in 3 planes of motion, with forces and planes controllable. (for those with a good imagination, this allows us to train in a 3-D force/plane environment and by adjusting the forces in those planes, we can adjust the stability of the exercise from " unstable to stable " ) Imagine a 45 degree angle push press or front squat in free space.> Mel Siff: *** Applying forces in 3-D is not the most crucial part of training, as all the latter-day evangelists of " functional training " seem to believe. What is far more important is using any degree of external dimensionality of functioning to produce multi-dimensional and multi-faceted storage and control within the central nervous system computer and command centre, distributed at motorsensory levels above and below the level of the spinal motoneurons. The value of good old " Pavlovian " conditioned reflex training applied in the sports conditioning situation should never be underestimated, especially if one expands the concept of conditioning to include cognitive and non-cognitive processes, local reflexes and central command (see Ch 8 of " Supertraining " 2000 for a systems model of this process). Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA Supertraining/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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