Re: Sweet Birch ** And Wintergreen

[Guest guest]

Hello Butch,

Thanks you for the very informative post. You hit the nail on the head for

me as it was for an aches and pains ointment that I was wanting the birch. I

was also looking at wintergreen so you really helped me today. The two

people I have in mind have constant arthritis pain and would probably use the

ointment at a high frequency. Lessening their pain in the long run does not

mean much if I also kill them in the process. :-) I am ditching thought of

birch and wintergreen and moving on. Thanks again.

Sage

[Guest guest]

You might try the MSM cream with menthol. It seems to do the trick for pain

relefe.

Chris

Re: Sweet Birch ** And Wintergreen

Hello Butch,

Thanks you for the very informative post. You hit the nail on the head for

me as it was for an aches and pains ointment that I was wanting the birch.

I

was also looking at wintergreen so you really helped me today. The two

people I have in mind have constant arthritis pain and would probably use

the

ointment at a high frequency. Lessening their pain in the long run does not

mean much if I also kill them in the process. :-) I am ditching thought of

birch and wintergreen and moving on. Thanks again.

Sage

[Guest guest]

Sage-

Look at a blend of Black Pepper (Piper nigrum) EO and Lavender EO (L.

angustifolia) in peanut oil for an arthritis blend. You could use

fractionated coconut as a more stable carrier, but peanut is supposed to

have properties that makes it especially good for arthritis.

HTH-

Lynda

Yaaruln@... wrote:

>Hello Butch,

>

>Thanks you for the very informative post. You hit the nail on the head for

>me as it was for an aches and pains ointment that I was wanting the birch. I

>was also looking at wintergreen so you really helped me today. The two

>people I have in mind have constant arthritis pain and would probably use the

>ointment at a high frequency. Lessening their pain in the long run does not

>mean much if I also kill them in the process. :-) I am ditching thought of

>birch and wintergreen and moving on. Thanks again.

>

>Sage

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/23/02 8:45:10 AM Central Standard Time,

cpfarm@... writes:

> You might try the MSM cream with menthol. It seems to do the trick for pain

> relefe.

> Chris

>

Thanks

I did get some MSM - with a non requested certificate of analysis included, I

might add. I was looking for additional things to add to the MSM recipe

because the two people I have in mind really have some very painful arthritis

conditions in localized spots. I just wanted to make it the best pain lotion

I could for them.

Sage

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/23/02 8:49:22 AM Central Standard Time,

lynda@... writes:

> Look at a blend of Black Pepper (Piper nigrum) EO and Lavender EO (L.

> angustifolia) in peanut oil for an arthritis blend. You could use

> fractionated coconut as a more stable carrier, but peanut is supposed to

> have properties that makes it especially good for arthritis.

>

>

Lynda,

Thank you so much. I have never heard that about peanut oil, so will

certainly research it. I appreciate the help. Lavender was already on my

list, but I totally forgot pepper. I am not in business and do not sell

anything, so when a friend or family member wants me to make something for

them, I really do have to research and scramble a bit. I'd just as soon not

poison or kill anyone. :-))

Sage

[Guest guest]

Sage-

You are very welcome! I sometimes don't say much because I think people

out there must think I am such a know-it-all, always commenting about EO

safety. It IS my bug in life! :-D But I know so little about making

toiletries that there isn't much else I can contribute. But hey,

anytime you have a question, I'll be happy to help.

Best wishes-

Lynda

Yaaruln@... wrote:

>In a message dated 11/23/02 8:49:22 AM Central Standard Time,

>lynda@... writes:

>

>

>>Look at a blend of Black Pepper (Piper nigrum) EO and Lavender EO (L.

>>angustifolia) in peanut oil for an arthritis blend. You could use

>>fractionated coconut as a more stable carrier, but peanut is supposed to

>>have properties that makes it especially good for arthritis.

>>

>>

>

>Lynda,

>Thank you so much. I have never heard that about peanut oil, so will

>certainly research it. I appreciate the help. Lavender was already on my

>list, but I totally forgot pepper. I am not in business and do not sell

>anything, so when a friend or family member wants me to make something for

>them, I really do have to research and scramble a bit. I'd just as soon not

>poison or kill anyone. :-))

>

>Sage

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/23/02 9:55:15 PM Central Standard Time,

cpfarm@... writes:

> Have you

> joined the MSM-DIY it has great classes and good contacts

> for menthol and MSM.

>

I have not It sounds like something that would be good for me. Thank you

very much.

Sage

[Guest guest]

You can get menthol crystals for the cream and this gives a good cooling and

then warming effect. I made up 24 oz's today and just love it. Have you

joined the MSM-DIY it has great classes and good contacts

for menthol and MSM.

Chris

Re: Sweet Birch ** And Wintergreen

> In a message dated 11/23/02 8:45:10 AM Central Standard Time,

> cpfarm@... writes:

>

>

> > You might try the MSM cream with menthol. It seems to do the trick for

pain

> > relefe.

> > Chris

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[Guest guest]

On Friday, November 22, Butch Owen wrote, in part:

<snip>

>Methyl salicylate is a dermal and oral toxin and there is not one person

>in the world of chemistry or medicine that will tell you otherwise, but

>that doesn't mean you're gonna fall down and die the first time you use

>it. But in concentration, and/or with frequent use, Methyl salicylate

>does make people sick, and it can be fatal if the overdose is high. I

>want to emphasize " frequent use " because of the cumulative effects of

>Methyl salicylate. Don't ask me what is too much .. I don't know .. but

>I won't sell them or use them.

<snip>

Welcome back, Butch

When Sage first posted asking about availability on these oils, I

literally shuddered and was trying to think of what to say, but no way

could I have come back with the goods the way you did. That was a great

response.

I've been surprised and appalled to see what purported to be Sweet Birch

oil and Wintergreen both being sold freely around Vancouver, with no real

understanding on the part of the sellers of what they were actually

trading in. As you say, this stuff's dangerous, even if it isn't the real

thing but the more likely methyl salicylate. I'm glad you raised the

question of cumulative effects, because I've been wondering about that.

Probably has something to do with how ubiquitous Tiger Balm is around

here, because of the influence of a large Asian population, but at some

point I found the implications of its ingredient list troubling: for the

record, it includes wintergreen along with menthol and camphor. For all I

know, there are people wandering about showing classic symptoms of

wintergreen/methyl salicylate poisoning (-- heck, it might even explain a

few things!) and their doctors have no idea what's going on. Your actual

numbers on different OTC preparations have done nothing to reassure me.

Is it just me or does that 29g figure for the amount of methyl salicylate

in 100g of Icy Hot not sound like rather a lot for a product that some

people use fairly regularly?

It all leaves me puzzling over how exactly us regular folk should broach

the subject of toxicity with people who are selling this stuff. There's

nothing like a pecuniary interest to compromise a person's ability to see

reason, so hostile defensiveness is almost a given. Add to that the blind

faith factor and you're almost snookered before you start. Any chance you

have this information somewhere on your website? Maybe I'll just go look

now...

By the way, could you explain that chiral analysis you mentioned at all?

I've never heard of it before, but it immediately made me think of the

concept of chirality in chemistry, which is that molecules have a

particular direction in the same way that, say, snail shells have a

particular direction. A mirror-twin of a molecule -- one that goes the

other way -- is called an eniantomer. If I remember correctly, the common

synthetic citrus D-Limonene is an eniantomer of naturally occurring

Limonene from citrus peel, with the D referring to its direction (Dexter

or Right). I seem to remember that eniantomers have a pretty big role in

the fragrance, flavouring AND pharmaceutical industries. I just took a

quick look at a chiral analysis webpage from Purdue's Chemical faculty,

and I think I might be on the right track, but I'd certainly appreciate

being straightened out if I'm not. Are eniantomers how chiral analysis

distinguishes Methyl Salicylate from Wintergreen or Sweet Birch?

regards,

Anne-Marie in Vancouver

E amst-laurent@...

W http://holecomm.ca/~redwing/

[Guest guest]

My previous post on this subject mentioned:

>eniantomers

Sorry, folks, but that's actually enantiomers. Sheesh. Isn't this what we

all love about chemistry, the sheer tongue-tangling complexity? In my

other life, as a graphic artist, I've had occasion to handle label copy

for cosmetics and toiletries and I can say with the kind of confidence

that comes only from painful personal experience that those bloody-long

chemical names are just as hard to typeset as they are to say. There is

an up side to it, though; after a while, you find yourself doing a better

job of parsing the names and they stop being mysterious agglomerations of

meaningless syllables. It's probably only out of self-defense because

you're the one who actually has to hyphenate the damn things, but why

look a gift horse in the mouth?

Apologies if I confused anyone,

Anne-Marie

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