Weights Dangerous for Baseball?

[Guest guest]

For the last seven years I have specialized in the strength and

conditioning of baseball pitchers. It was the topic for my Master's graduate

project at San Francisco State University. I am driven with a passion to

open the minds of S & C coaches and pitchers to the simple idea of applying

science to the training of pitchers.

I agree completely with the scientific basis that Dr. Yessis puts

forth. People without training backgrounds put too much emphasis on the

" exercise " and not enough thinking about the plane of motion of the skill,

the muscle actions at the joint, and the types of contractions needed. From

this kinesiological and biomechanical perspective, the bench press, done

correctly, is the perfect choice for a baseball pitcher. It is not the

" what " as much as it is the " why " and the " how " of a movement choice.

Baseball pitchers have been treated like babies with regard to their

training. I can't imagine the mindset an athlete would need to have to throw

a fastball while their performing, yet be taught to be afraid of using their

arm over their head in the gym. If a pitcher is taught about scapular

stabilization and given the tools to understand and perform correct

technique, he can do anything.

Pitchers should be trained to be strong and powerful explosive

athletes... who also happen to be pitchers. From this perspective, it's all

good. Science has already worked out the details of this for us.

Angel Borrelli, M.A., C.S.C.S.

GymScience Sport Performance

Pleasant Hill, California 94523

[Guest guest]

In response to the messages below, it appears

1. Pitchers strength and conditioning programs have

been perceived as 'easy' or 'not sport specific in the past', and

2. Pitchers are like any other athlete in

the sense that after performing a needs analysis of a

pitcher, they should (among other things) be trained

explosively, while performing specific movements related to pitching.

I think coaches need to also consider benefits versus

risk (cost/benefit). As Dr. Siff has stated recently,

he has seen many so-called coordinated people on

balance balls and wobble boards unable to perform

Olympic lifting exercises. With this in mind, would

the benefits of performing the push press, snatch,

clean and jerk, etc. with pitchers outweigh the

possibly risks, i.e., improper technique resulting in

injury, as well as reducing power output, etc.?

Alternatively, what exercises could be done safely and

effectively for the baseball pitcher while reducing

the risk of injury. Does a pitcher ever press a

baseball overhead in a game? Although gains in

muscular power and strength can be substantial with

Olympic lifting, could alternative exercises (clean

pulls, snatch pulls, medball throws, etc.) train

pitcher to be explosive without causing injury or at

least reducing the possibility of senseless injury?

While the bench press and other 'front'of the body

muscles could lead to an increase in velocity, most

injuries occur due to a lack of strength of the

muscles in the 'back' of the body. While some coaches

see this as an opportunity to be overcautious and

eliminate upper body lifting or perhaps just bench

pressing, we probably need to find a proper balance

between the two(focusing on the 'back' of the body to

prevent injuries), while being safe and effective.

-----------Original Messages ---------

From: AngelEB@...

For the last seven years I have specialized in the strength and

conditioning of baseball pitchers. It was the topic for my Master's graduate

project at San Francisco State University. I am driven with a passion to

open the minds of S & C coaches and pitchers to the simple idea of applying

science to the training of pitchers.

I agree completely with the scientific basis that Dr. Yessis puts

forth. People without training backgrounds put too much emphasis on the

" exercise " and not enough thinking about the plane of motion of the skill,

the muscle actions at the joint, and the types of contractions needed. From

this kinesiological and biomechanical perspective, the bench press, done

correctly, is the perfect choice for a baseball pitcher. It is not the

" what " as much as it is the " why " and the " how " of a movement choice.

Baseball pitchers have been treated like babies with regard to their

training. I can't imagine the mindset an athlete would need to have to throw

a fastball while their performing, yet be taught to be afraid of using their

arm over their head in the gym. If a pitcher is taught about scapular

stabilization and given the tools to understand and perform correct

technique, he can do anything.

Pitchers should be trained to be strong and powerful explosive

athletes... who also happen to be pitchers. From this perspective, it's all

good. Science has already worked out the details of this for us.

Angel Borrelli, M.A., C.S.C.S.

-------

From: " Cable "

wrote:

I've missed a great deal of this, but Stottlemyre is one of the most

successful pitching coaches around and has worked with the NY Yankees for a

number of years. He don't need excuses.

Its also been noted that Clemons of the NY team trains rigorously

with weights year round and that Pettite has given Clemons weight training

ideas credit for his increased velocity this year. His everage fastball is

3-4 mph faster this year than it was last year.

I'm wondering if this is dated news and Stottlemyre has revised his

thinking on weight training?

Although I still don't think the bench press is the greatest exercise for a

baseball pitcher. I would tend to do more presses, push presses, jerks and

snatches for the upper body of a pitcher. As well squats, box squats and

split snatches. Not an exhaustive list of exercises -just off the top of my

head...

Hobman

>> , The Stottlemyer that is being discussed is Todd Stottlemyer

(pitcher for the Arizona Diamondbacks), son of

Yankee's pitching coach Mel Stottlemyer who is also former pitcher for the

Yankee's.

Cable

ez, Ca.

------------

T. Gearity, CSCS, USAW Club Coach

Graduate Assistant

University of Tennessee Men's Strength and Conditioning

and Graduate Teaching Associate

Dept. of Health, Physical Education, and Recreation

--------------

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[Guest guest]

... a perspective that I think is important to establish when training

any athlete is that an exercise has no inherent quality of being good or bad

in and of itself. Each pitcher has different individual needs that may deem

it necessary to perform certain movements. Additionally, a strength coach

must pull from his arsenal of weapons the movement that will not only give

the athlete the most bang for his buck, but also one that he, the strength

coach, feels adequate in teaching. Most pitchers are very kinesthetic;

selecting an exercise that teaches feel or body position is sometimes as

important as selecting an exercise because it is " sport specific " .

With regard to your comments on " front " and " back " of the body, I'm not sure

I understood. However, I can offer this as food for thought: more than 50%

of the power is generated by the lower body and trunk,(references available

on request) beginning, of course, from the ground reaction force (against the

pitching mound) of the balance leg equal to 30% of the pitcher's bodyweight

(references available). However, the upper body must be able to accept and

transmit the generated power.

Since I am paid for what I have learned combined with my opinions, I will

offer an opinion: the best insurance policy against injury is a joint that

is strong in all planes in which it moves. It then, when needed, stands a

good chance of handling unusual stresses in just one of those planes during

the performance of a skill.

Last opinion offered (again): it is not the what, as much as it is the " why "

and the " how " which are both products of the thinking of the S & C coach. We

have a tremendous responsibility which I know we all take seriously. To me,

there should be no " improper technique " . A pitcher can be taught about a

strike zone; he can also be taught proper technique (assuming you know it).

That is our job. If a pitcher is having trouble performing something

correctly, lower body or upper body, etc., that his body telling you about a

place in which some work is needed. Our job is to create an environment of

learning and movements in order to find those areas.

If you improve the pitcher's body, often times, the pitch improves itself.

Angel Borrelli

California

[Guest guest]

, I should know better than to use the word " perfect " among scientists.

Its usage was mostly a product of my passion for my work. I appreciate your

questions and perspective. However, let's bat this ball around with regard

to the bench press. I agree with your statement that a bench press should

only be a part of a well-designed program. And I also understand your

thinking about the bench press not being similar to the kinetic chain in

pitching, i.e., the upper body receiving forces transmitted through the lower

body. Here's some additional information that you may find useful and

thought provoking:

1) From the level of analysis of kinesiology, the bench press (standard

shoulder width grip or appropriate to the performer) does share the same

plane of motion as a baseball pitch: horizontal adduction at the shoulder

joint.

2) The exercise itself acts as an active stretch (and pre-stretch) to the pec

major when it is in full eccentric position. This same type of prestretch

occurs at the shoulder joint during the forced horizontal abduction which

occurs when the throwing arm lags behind the torso rotation.(during pitching

its forced, during exercise it can be controlled…this is good)

3) During the motion described in #2, the scapular musculature is stressed in

a way similar to pitching and the requirements of sound technique assist the

pitcher in developing upper body control and kinesthetic awareness (a

positive augment to any athlete's base of knowledge)

4) The bilateral deficit theory not withstanding, a pitcher can benefit from

bilateral movements. Since the shoulder girdle floats, (and I like to think

of it as a teeter totter with one side affecting the other) symmetrical usage

is as important as the unilateral sport-specific movements that are a part of

a program.

5) The bench press is also a great diagnostic tool for the S & C coach. As

the pitcher's body lay still on the bench, his trunk and shoulder girdle

become extremely easy to observe for imbalances and differences in symmetry

and motion. That information to you and feedback to the pitcher can be

extremely beneficial to his progress.

6) The decline bench press (or decline dumbbell press) is a favorite among my

pitchers. The high-to-low angle of the shoulder joint movement is the same

path as the ball flight (high to low).

7) Not everything has to be (and should be) a match to the skill. Mel's

comments on this point are well-taken. There are certain exercises that are

" athlete specific " , i.e., that help him perform better as an athlete…and in

the case of an elite pitcher, or even any pitcher looking for improvement,

those needs must also be addressed. Pitcher's never used to ask me to make

them bigger, faster, and stronger. Now they do. Look at the hitters they

face.

8) During the teaching process, we get to weed out those that are not

candidates for this move. That is our job.

Thank you for making me think about these things. I'm putting my glove on

waiting for you to hit this one back to me.

gymscienceâ„¢ Sport Performance

Pleasant Hill, California 94523

925-687-1977

angel@...

[Guest guest]

Angel wrote:

<, I should know better than to use the word " perfect " among scientists.>

Casler wrote:

Hi Angel, I hardly consider myself a scientist, just one very interested in

the science of exercise. My question was relating to your use of the word

" perfect " since I certainly see great value but not perfection.

Angel wrote:

<Its usage was mostly a product of my passion for my work. I appreciate your

questions and perspective. However, let's bat this ball around with regard

to the bench press. I agree with your statement that a bench press should

only be a part of a well-designed program. And I also understand your

thinking about the bench press not being similar to the kinetic chain in

pitching, i.e., the upper body receiving forces transmitted through the

lower body. Here's some additional information that you may find useful and

thought provoking:

1) From the level of analysis of kinesiology, the bench press (standard

shoulder width grip or appropriate to the performer) does share the same

plane of motion as a baseball pitch: horizontal adduction at the shoulder joint.

>

Casler writes:

Well, we agree that the bench is valuable to a well designed program.

I would suggest that a " shoulder width grip " bench would put the elbows

closer to the sides and of course we will have adduction of the shoulder,

but unless you are a side arm or underhand slinger the plane is

substantially different than that of a bench press.

Upon closer examination of the pitching movement, I would suggest that the

wider grip " elbows out " bench press might be valuable in the pre-stretch

when the chest/shoulder girdle is " pre-loaded " eccentrically.

In a quick internet search for pictures I came across this URL which

demonstrates the position. (upon looking at the site, it appears that this

photo comes from the source of controversy here. I trust it does not lessen

the effectiveness of the photo)

<http://www.pitching.com/mig.php?pageType=image & currDir=./Pitching_Delivery & imag\

e=Mvc-007f.jpg>

This photo certainly displays a " specific portion " of the movement that

could be trained effectively with a " somewhat " wide grip (elbows out) bench

press brought high to the chin or clavicles.

Angel wrote:

< 2) The exercise itself acts as an active stretch (and pre-stretch) to the

pecmajor when it is in full eccentric position. This same type of prestretch

occurs at the shoulder joint during the forced horizontal abduction which

occurs when the throwing arm lags behind the torso rotation.(during pitching

its forced, during exercise it can be controlled -this is good)

Casler writes:

I agree (see above) that the bench press (with a wider grip) can cause the

prestretch

you refer to. My earlier assessment that there were " no similar planes of

motion " was based on the generally performed humerus angle which seems to be

lower than the pitching ideal.

Angel wrote:

< 3) During the motion described in #2, the scapular musculature is stressed

in a way similar to pitching and the requirements of sound technique assist the

pitcher in developing upper body control and kinesthetic awareness (a

positive augment to any athlete's base of knowledge) >

Casler writes:

I agree as long as the humerus is not in too low an angle. Many times in

the attempt to use more weight, a biomechanically more efficient Plane of

Motion is used. This will cause the athlete to reflexively try to follow

that path of power rather than transfer a more limited ability to the more

correct pitching position.

It might be offset by the addition of high flyes and pullovers to provide a

transference to the higher humerus angles.

Angel wrote:

< 4) The bilateral deficit theory not withstanding, a pitcher can benefit from

bilateral movements. Since the shoulder girdle floats, (and I like to think

of it as a teeter totter with one side affecting the other) symmetrical

usage is as important as the unilateral sport-specific movements that are a part

of a program. >

Casler writes:

I agree that all athletes can benefit from bilateral exercise, but my

pointing this difference out was in reference to the " perfect " moniker.

Angel wrote:

< 5) The bench press is also a great diagnostic tool for the S & C coach. As

the pitcher's body lay still on the bench, his trunk and shoulder girdle

become extremely easy to observe for imbalances and differences in symmetry

and motion. That information to you and feedback to the pitcher can be

extremely beneficial to his progress.

6) The decline bench press (or decline dumbbell press) is a favorite among my

pitchers. The high-to-low angle of the shoulder joint movement is the same

path as the ball flight (high to low). >

Casler writes:

Now you are moving toward " perfection " . I would say that " segmental

functional specificity " might be more accurate.

If you analyze the " upper body " actions and segment them into " the stretch

and initial acceleration phase " , and the " final acceleration, release,

follow through phase " , you might have something like this:

" the stretch and initial acceleration phase " = Bench press, flyes, pullovers

" final acceleration, release, follow through phase " = Decline pullover triceps

press

Even though we still have many things that keep the Bench Press from being

" perfect " , it, along with other specific exercises offers steps toward

movement translation and power transference.

Angel wrote:

< 7) Not everything has to be (and should be) a match to the skill. Mel's

comments on this point are well-taken. There are certain exercises that are

" athlete specific " , i.e., that help him perform better as an athlete - and in

the case of an elite pitcher, or even any pitcher looking for improvement,

those needs must also be addressed. Pitcher's never used to ask me to make

them bigger, faster, and stronger. Now they do. Look at the hitters they

face. >

Casler writes:

I certainly want to stress that I am not in any way " devaluating " the basic

exercises as valuable or less than a great way to build a " general

foundation fitness " for many sports.

That said, I find the reasoning that a loaded " specific action " is in some

way inferior to a loaded " non-specific " action, faulty.

To illustrate that this is not true we have to simplify. Granted, complex

movements offer challenges and situations that may not " allow " us to

increase loading to the body through the whole action. But just because it

cannot be easily done does not mean that it is inferior. And it has to be

noted that loading to the extent of breaks in form could be less than

productive if not negated by technique training.

So as I said, we have to simplify. To use your terminology, if we are to

have a " perfect conditioning exercise " for our sporting action, it had to be

able to be progressively loaded in a " mirror " of the action, with similar (or

the same)

planes, joint angles, ROMs, RFDs and other factors.

For a simplified example: The perfect exercise to train for the Powerlifting

Squat, is the squat. The perfect exercise to train for the Olympic Snatch,

is the snatch. The perfect exercise for the Power Lifting Bench Press is

the bench press. It might also be said that the perfect exercise to improve

ones VJ would be jumping squats or Hanging Cleans.

It is clearly evident that to improve ones " power " RFD, and speed,

overloading the exact action is the ticket.

This point cannot be argued if one is looking for the " perfect " exercise.

All other conditioning exercises are " less than perfect " . This does not

mean that they are not valuable and contribute greatly for they do.

As we approach more complex actions, it becomes more difficult to load the

" exact

action " , so we must load " segments " and at some point integrate the gains

into fluid, powerful actions. Sometimes this is upper body, or lower, or

torso or whatever. Then after these segmented conditionings we

have to " integrate " the separately trained systems and translate the results

into the sporting action.

Obviously the bench press relating to pitching is upper body. But it is

even more limited than that. It is bilateral, so we lose the torso rotation

which is arguably the most important part of pitching and we have no legs at

all.

But what it does do, as you said, is strengthens the anterior shoulder but

more importantly, it indirectly strengthens the shoulder stabilization

complex. This effect is usually the result of " reflexive " activation of the

scapular stabilizers and compressors of the ACJ.

So make no mistake about it. I did not say the bench press was NOT a

valuable exercise (if performed correctly and in a way that will not lead to

injury), but I questioned the " perfection " you saw that I might have missed.

Angel wrote:

<Thank you for making me think about these things. I'm putting my glove on

waiting for you to hit this one back to me.>

Casler writes:

I also thank you for a " gentlemanly " exchange.

I wonder what you think is the perfect exercise for " catchers " ? Overhead

Squats? Snatches? Cleans? Olympic Squats?

Regards,

A. Casler

TRI-VECTOR

3-D Force Training Systems

Century City, CA

http://sites.netscape.net/summitfitnessco/homepage

http://summitfitness.websitegalaxy.com

[Guest guest]

Dick Mills said:

<My training philosophy is not an opinion since it has been working on real

pitchers since 1996. That makes it an experience.>

I say:

Wow, since 1996 - he sure has some vast experience and it shows through his

post. Actually, it is scary that people are taking his advice. I hate to

break it to him, but based on what I have read, his comments are based on

his " opinion " , since he offers no real evidence to back up his claims. But

everyone on this list knows that. It is just scary to see people accepting his

advice

as the word of god - yet another guru strikes again!

Buffington

Mechanicsburg, PA