Guest guest Posted August 30, 2001 Report Share Posted August 30, 2001 --- Hi Joe! The hamstring extends the hip and flexes the knee. The squats and RDL's will work the muscle as a hip extensor so add leg curls to work the muscle as a knee flexor. I find most athletes are very weak in knee flexion. Once the knee flexion strength improves the athlete will show improvement. Good Luck! Dan Wathen, Youngstown State University In Supertraining@y..., jdhallpa@a... wrote: > I have a running back who complains that his hamstring hurts, so he has not > practised at all during camp. This is a chronic Quad/Ham problem. He looks great and > squats 500, RDL's 250lbs. Any suggestions from anyone? > > Joe Hall > Doylestown,Pa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2001 Report Share Posted August 30, 2001 Re: Hamstring Pain Joe Hall wrote: I have a running back who complains that his hamstring hurts, so he has not practised at all during camp. This is a chronic Quad/Ham problem. He looks great and squats 500, RDL's 250lbs. Any suggestions from anyone? Dan Wathen wrote: The hamstring extends the hip and flexes the knee. The squats and RDL's will work the muscle as a hip extensor so add leg curls to work the muscle as a knee flexor. I find most athletes are very weak in knee flexion. Once the knee flexion strength improves the athlete will show improvement. Good Luck! Casler writes: Hi Dan, Very interesting advice. I have to assume this is " experience talking " , and if so, what specific conditioning effect of knee flexion (leg curls) might you attribute the improvement too? Regards, A. Casler TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Training Systems Century City, CA http://sites.netscape.net/summitfitnessco/homepage http://summitfitness.websitegalaxy.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2001 Report Share Posted August 31, 2001 --- Hi ! A good deal of personal experience as I injured both hamstrings many years ago and did not recover until I added leg curls to the rehab. At the time I had good flexibility and could squat 500# at 180# BW. Since that time(1975) I have worked with many athletes and non-athletes with acute and chronic hamstring problems. Most had good flexibility and many had good hip extensor strength but the vast majority have poor to very poor knee flexor strength. There is some evidence in the literature citing poor strength in knee flexion as a cause of hamstring problems ( search in Journal of Orthopaedic and Sports PT.) I don't expect you remember me but I went to UK( I was a walk on FB player) at the same time you did and remember you throwing and lifting prowess. Borden tells me your still in impressive condition. Best wishes and go Wildcats! Dan Wathen, Youngstown STate University In Supertraining@y..., " bioforce " <bioforce.inc@g...> wrote: > > Re: Hamstring Pain > > > Joe Hall wrote: > > I have a running back who complains that his hamstring hurts, so he > has not practised at all during camp. This is a chronic Quad/Ham problem. > He looks great and squats 500, RDL's 250lbs. Any suggestions from > anyone? > > > Dan Wathen wrote: > > The hamstring extends the hip and flexes the knee. The squats and > RDL's will work the muscle as a hip extensor so add leg curls to work > the muscle as a knee flexor. I find most athletes are very weak in > knee flexion. Once the knee flexion strength improves the athlete > will show improvement. Good Luck! > > Casler writes: > > Hi Dan, Very interesting advice. I have to assume this is " experience > talking " , and if so, what specific conditioning effect of knee flexion (leg > curls) might you attribute the improvement too? > > Regards, > > A. Casler > > TRI-VECTOR > 3-D Force Training Systems > Century City, CA > http://sites.netscape.net/summitfitnessco/homepage > http://summitfitness.websitegalaxy.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2001 Report Share Posted August 31, 2001 Re: Hamstring Pain Dan Wathen wrote: Hi ! A good deal of personal experience as I injured both hamstrings many years ago and did not recover until I added leg curls to the rehab. At the time I had good flexibility and could squat 500# at 180# BW. Since that time(1975) I have worked with many athletes and non-athletes with acute and chronic hamstring problems. Most had good flexibility and many had good hip extensor strength but the vast majority have poor to very poor knee flexor strength. There is some evidence in the literature citing poor strength in knee flexion as a cause of hamstring problems ( search in Journal of Orthopaedic and Sports PT.) Casler writes: Do you think that this suggests the hamstring problem/injury is to the short head of the biceps femorus? Dan Wathen writes: I don't expect you remember me but I went to UK( I was a walk on FB player) at the same time you did and remember you throwing and lifting prowess. Borden tells me your still in impressive condition. Casler writes: What a small world! UK was a great place. You must have been under Coach Bradshaw after he arrived from Notre Dame. You must also have known Jeff Van Note (he was getting pretty strong and occasionally trained with us - the weightmen on the field team) Dick Borden is too kind regarding my condition. (although I don't let it slide too much) I will say this. He was probably the single biggest influence in providing inspiration, direction and impetus to me into this field. He certainly was the first person with whom I had contact, that taught me there was an intellectual side to physical training and exercise besides the rehabilitative sciences of physical therapy. He was, and continues to be, a mentor and inspiration to many of us in this field. Regards, A. Casler TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Training Systems Century City, CA http://summitfitness.websitegalaxy.com http://sites.netscape.net/summitfitnessco/homepage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2001 Report Share Posted August 31, 2001 I strongly recommend the use of exercises for both hip joint extension and knee flexion in order to fully develop the hamstrings. Most athletes in my experiences have very strong knee flexors but weak hip joint extensors. The best exercise that involves both of these actions in sequence in one movement is the glute-ham-gastroc raise. For a full description, see pages 54 to 57 in " Kinesiology of Exercise " . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yessis, Ph.D President, Sports Training, Inc. www.dryessis.com (760) 480-0558 PO Box 460429 Escondido, CA 92046 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2001 Report Share Posted September 1, 2001 --- Hi ! Certainly the short head would receive more work from leg curls than hip extension movements due to its origin but my problems were with the semi-tendinosus. Mann and others have sited the hamstring as the most critically stressed muscle in the lower body during jump and sprint activities. It is stressed eccentrically so we accentuate the negative in leg curls by flexing with both legs and extending with one leg in prone and seated movements. I prefer standing leg curls for the concentric portion of the action as it is more biomechanically similar to the pawing action of sprinting. It is interesting that although the hamstring is active in both extension of the hip and flexion of the knee sometimes one movement does not stress the muscle in the same manner as the other. For complete development and rehab both knee flexion and hip extension are required for the hamstring. I certainly echo your sentiments about Dr. Borden. He has been a great influence on me as well. I started with Coach Bradshaw and finished with Coach Ray who came from Notre Dame ( along with Mike Burgener.) Good Luck! Dan Wathen, Youngstown State University In Supertraining@y..., " bioforce " <bioforce.inc@g...> wrote: > > Re: Hamstring Pain > > > Dan Wathen wrote: > > Hi ! > > A good deal of personal experience as I injured both hamstrings many > years ago and did not recover until I added leg curls to the rehab. > At the time I had good flexibility and could squat 500# at 180# BW. > Since that time(1975) I have worked with many athletes and > non-athletes with acute and chronic hamstring problems. Most had good > flexibility and many had good hip extensor strength but the vast > majority have poor to very poor knee flexor strength. There is some > evidence in the literature citing poor strength in knee flexion as a > cause of hamstring problems ( search in Journal of Orthopaedic and > Sports PT.) > > Casler writes: > > Do you think that this suggests the hamstring problem/injury is to the short > head of the biceps femorus? > > > Dan Wathen writes: > > I don't expect you remember me but I went to UK( I was a walk on FB > player) at the same time you did and remember you throwing and lifting > prowess. Borden tells me your still in impressive condition. > > > Casler writes: > > What a small world! UK was a great place. You must have been under Coach > Bradshaw after he arrived from Notre Dame. You must also have known Jeff > Van Note (he was getting pretty strong and occasionally trained with us - > the weightmen on the field team) > > Dick Borden is too kind regarding my condition. (although I don't let it > slide too much) > > I will say this. He was probably the single biggest influence in providing > inspiration, direction and impetus to me into this field. He certainly was > the first person with whom I had contact, that taught me there was an > intellectual side to physical training and exercise besides the > rehabilitative sciences of physical therapy. > > He was, and continues to be, a mentor and inspiration to many of us in this > field. > > Regards, > > A. Casler > > TRI-VECTOR > 3-D Force Training Systems > Century City, CA > http://summitfitness.websitegalaxy.com > http://sites.netscape.net/summitfitnessco/homepage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2001 Report Share Posted September 1, 2001 --- Hi Dr. Yessis! The athletes I was referring to are those who do a lot of squatting and pulling movements without knee flexion movements. Certainly there are many with both weak flexors of the knee and extensors of the hip. I don't run into many with strong knee flexors. If you have some send them to Youngstown State if they have any eligiblity left. I also favor the gluet-ham-gastroc raise along with the reverse hyperextension. Unfortunately too few of our athletes do them. Best wishes! Dan Wathen, Youngstown State University In Supertraining@y..., " Dr. Yessis " <dryessis@d...> wrote: > I strongly recommend the use of exercises for both hip joint extension and knee flexion in order to fully develop the hamstrings. Most athletes in my experiences have very strong knee flexors but weak hip joint extensors. The best exercise that involves both of these actions in sequence in one movement is the glute-ham-gastroc raise. For a full description, see pages 54 to 57 in " Kinesiology of Exercise " . > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Yessis, Ph.D > President, Sports Training, Inc. > www.dryessis.com > (760) 480-0558 > PO Box 460429 > Escondido, CA 92046 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2001 Report Share Posted September 2, 2001 Dear List The hamstring postings of late have been an excellent read and are hopefully stimulating plenty of thought. My opinions on the matter are more broad that simply hip vs knee. It seems that the varied demands placed on the hamstrings require equally varied and intelligent conditioning. For injury rehab and prevention purposes I incorporate exercises that stress the hamstring in knee flexion and hip extension using as much exercise variety as possible. I also pay deliberate attention to the repetition continuum, aiming to develop high levels of both maximum strength and muscular endurance (occasional use of v-high reps e.g. sets of 50 reps on a hamstring curl or 3-way hip machine etc). The speed of the movement also needs to be considered so fast eccentric catches (e.g. using a light weight on a prone, seated or standing curl machine and allowing it to drop quickly before trying to brake it in the last 30 degrees of extension) are useful. Rapid standing hip extensions using theraband or similar are also a good way to condition the muscle to high speeds. The concentric-eccentric action is clearly a key issue. During the gait cycle the hamstrings are acting eccentrically as they decelrate the forward swing of the lower leg and then have to immediately switch to a concentric action after heel strike (driving the leg through). Emphasising the eccentric component of all exercises is important but particularly those exercises that can load the hamstring in knee flexion. There is an excellent swiss ball exercise for the hamstrings that is worth a try also (lying supine on floor with ball resting under calves - lift hips off the ground to put body into a bridge position. Now roll the ball very slowly towards you by flexing the knees. Briefly hold and roll back to the start position) [please email me if you would like photos of this exercise] Yet another issue is intermuscle coordination. The glutes and the hamstrings must work together as a unit during the gait cycle so although exercises such as squats and lunges have only low-moderate hamstring activatation [see JSCR 13(2):168] they are very useful for the hamstrings because they improve the firing patterns in these complementary muscles. One of the most difficult aspects of dealing with troublesome hamstrings is planning and trying to 'cover all the bases'. The reality is that ensuring 'complete' rehab or prehab is very difficult because strength is only 1 of the numerous risk factors for hamstring injuries [poor flexibility, cardiovascular fatigue, poor warm-up, poor biomechanics, SI joint stiffness + pelvic control issues, nervous tension + other back related problems etc] Regards Lythe BSc, PGDiP, CSCS New Zealand Academy of Sport Auckland New Zealand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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