Re: Plastic N American Food

[Guest guest]

Mel:

Do you believe there is less genetic modification, and a limited use of

artificial fertilisers, in countries such as Australia, New Zealand, and

South Africa? Are North Americans the only ones with a monopoly on " food

engineering'? I suspect not, but your questions are intriguing. Why aren't

other countries relying on similar techniques?

[My original letter asked if the widespread use of genetic engineering and other

artificial measures explained why N American food is so tasteless. As far as I

know,

the extent of such artificial means appears to be much higher in the USA,

according

to news reports. For instance, a recent report stated that over 65% of all

wheat and corn

in the USA is genetically modified, much of it being used for the production of

meat and

dairy produce. I think that same report stated that soya (our major meat

alternative)

also comes largely from genetically modified sources, as does canola oil.

Since bread comes

from similar sources, it may not be at all surprising that bread here is such a

culinary

disappointment. In several European countries there is a very strong lobby

against the use

of genetically modified crops and some of them even refuse to import American

foods on this

basis. My Aussie and Kiwi colleagues should be able to comment on the

situation in their

countries. Mel Siff ]

Ken Jakalski

Lisle, Illinois

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff wrote:

<Many of us who have stayed or lived in other countries of the world find

that North American food generally has considerably less flavour and aroma than

its overseas counterparts, even though its external appearance is spotless and

colourful. ........ >

Having traveled a fair bit around Europe as well as the US and Canada, I

must agree with this statement. I try to travel on a relatively sane budget

and do not eat in expensive restaurants; indeed I rather prefer the

experience of popping into the local delis, cafes, etc. and seeing what they

have to offer. Even the low-end culinary offerings of continental Europe

(and even some parts of the UK) are superior to the average restaurant in

North America.

In Florence, which is a tourist city where the main restaurants are quite

pricey, we ate in little hole-in-the-wall dive restaurants where an

omnipresent TV played the local soccer games. In these little places I had

some of the best food I have ever experienced, which may have been nothing

more complicated than a roast chicken and a glass of the house plonk. A

tiny deli-cafe in Amsterdam, which boasted of nothing more fancy than rough

wooden floors and tables served fresh yogurt, wonderful coffee, and

exquisite cheese. A smoky, stinky cheapo bar in Paris produced a beautiful

selection of fruit and salad. I don't recall seeing anyone in continental

Europe (though I did in the UK) running around with styrofoam cups of

coffee; rather they made coffee a sit-down event. Conversely, in my travels

across North America, I spent a good deal of my time being miserable after

eating the horrendous local offering of greasy, flavourless (and

vegetable/fruit-free) fuel.

I am lucky to live in a city in which the majority of the population are

first or second generation immigrants from all over the world. Toronto's

Chinatown, Kensington, and St.Lawrence markets are my culinary salvation.

The meat and produce from the large supermarket nearby is not only much more

expensive, but much less flavourful. The first time we bit into a chicken

from the butcher in Kensington market, we sat chewing in confusion: the

chicken tasted odd... unfamiliar... it tasted... like chicken! It actually

tasted like chicken instead of like styrofoam.

I wish that more North Americans would share the European love of good food!

It doesn't have to be fancy. Merely a basic attention to freshness, taste,

and the pleasure of consumption suffices. People are often accused of being

" food snobs " when they express this view; but what is more crass and basic

than being concerned with a happy palate and tummy?

Krista -Dixon

Toronto, ON

P.S. If anyone knows what kind of coffee they drink in the Netherlands, I

would love to know. It was delicious.

-------------------------

http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html

mistresskrista at home.com

[Guest guest]

Mel-

I think the answer to your questions in general is " yes " . All of the

factors you cited are necessary because the USA is such a large

country with much of the food we eat not being locally produced

(relative to the area you live in).

[This makes one wonder how countries with similar or much larger populations,

like China

and Russia manage to feed their millions without such widespread application of

technology.

Maybe Schumacher who wrote the book, " Small is Beautiful " , had an important

point to make.

Maybe the widespread monopolistic destruction of the small farmer and small

cooperative has

had more to do with the current low standard of food than anything else. No law

of economics

has decreed that huge commercial conglomerates offer the most efficient way of

catering for large

populations - on the contrary, research has shown quite the opposite. Mel Siff]

All of the preservatives, flavorants etc are necessary to both keep food from

going perishable

as well as give it some sort of good taste. Similarly, most

restaurants do not purchase their food locally. Mind you I am not

referring the Mcs type fare which is filled with artificial

flavors manufactured in Northern New Jersey. See the book " Fast Food

Nation " by Schlosser for more details.

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395977894/002-8962448-2949643>

That is a whole other story in which you get what you pay for.

Garth Landers

Stamford USA

-----------

Mcsiff@a... wrote:

The central question here is: " Why is N American food so flavourless

and odourless? " Is it because genetic modification is so widespread,

is it because everything relies on artificial fertilisers, is it because

most perishable food is irradiated, prematurely harvested or artificially

ripened? Why does one have to rely on artificial flavourants, spices, herbs,

dressings and other disguises to ensure that food has some taste?

[Guest guest]

As one who has had experience in agricuture industry (academically and as a

producer), perhaps I can offer some insight to your obsevations below.

1] The consumer is the main driving force behind the industry. Whatever the

consumer buys, the industry will strive to provide. While there is an

educational component (trickle-down from academia and industry), the

industry obeys supply and demand.

2] Consumer preferences here in the States are not the same as overseas. I

noted the differences in food preferences as well as food quality when I

have been overseas. There is a difference in both.

3] Cosumers are driven by several factors:

* Size and appearance: consumers here like 'big' and 'pretty'. The breeders

strive to select for those traits simply because that is what sells.

Ironically, those foods that are relegated to processing (such as juice

apples, preserve soft fruits, etc) are often considered unappealing and do

not sell as well intact although they taste better.

* Familiarity. Consumers are familiar with what they have eaten and what has

been available to them. When the tendancy prevailed for consumers to buy and

eat larger and prettier fruit/vegetables/meat, they became accustomed to

buying food with those characteristics. This forces the growers/producers to

provide them, simply because they sell more. It is self-propagating. Most

are unaware that these newer products are not as tasty as the previous or

older products. Nevertheless, many consumers will invariably choose for size

and appearance over taste. Several food industry commodity commissions have

demonstrated this in blinded and unblinded human trials. (I have seen them

personally for small fruits)

4] Selectively breeding for desired traits. Food stuffs are bred for ability

to withstand shipping and preserving, diseases, environmental conditions,

management practices, etc. These traits are sometimes selected for at the

expense of others, such as taste. In this way, the producer influences

consumer supply. The demand for pesticide-free produce has forces some

producers to grow varieties that may be smaller or less'pretty.' And often

must charge more.

Realize that all these factors may be different in Europe: consumer

preferences, management practices, economics (policy, scale of farming,

etc), environment, shipping, etc. One study found that most Europeans were

willing to sacrifice appearance for taste. e.g. they preferred a variety of

apple that is small and russetted (has a rough brown skin), but has a

wonderful astringent and slightly nutty taste ('s Orange Pippin)to other

varieties that were smooth, pretty and big. The consumer choice here in the

states would be the converse.

I raised and sold naturally grown lamb which was smaller on the hoof and

slightly more expensive, but tasted better (because of what they ate), and

was leaner than the commercially grown lamb. Only the discerning and

discriminating consumer was willing to pay the extra cost and deal with meat

cuts that were not prettily plastic wrapped, individually weighed and

labeled (even though it was delivered . However, my production could not

subsist on an optimal economy of size and thus depended on the small niche

market. I could not successfully compete with the bigger commercial

producers. This is an example how production is fostered by economics.

Hope this information helps.

Elzi Volk

Texas

----------------

Mel Siff wrote:

>Many of us who have stayed or lived in other countries of the world find

>that North American food generally has considerably less flavour and aroma than

>its overseas counterparts, even though its external appearance is spotless

>and colourful. Fruit and vegetables hardly have any typically strong

>fragrance that typifies these foods, while bread here is undoubtedly

>amongst the worst in the world. The texture and taste of meat products, even

from

>the famed Midwest ranches, does not vaguely compare with that from

>Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. Beef jerky is a pale, bland and tough

shadow

>of the same product in South Africa (called 'biltong'), while milk also has

>a very 'plastic' taste. Yoghurts and cheeses, even from health shops, are a

>pathetic analogue of their equivalents from Mediterranean Europe.

>

>Please do not misinterpret what I am saying as an attack on anything

>American and Canadian; my comments are observations made by many of us who have

not

>lived in the USA for most of our lives and they express genuine concern for

>the way in which the public is being mistreated by the food industry here.

>If I am to be interpreted as making some sociopolitical or commercial

>comment, it is that the public in N America are being fobbed off with

> " junk " food everywhere in many shapes and forms and that it is not just fast

food

>restaurants which serve " junk food " . Unless one can find a " health

>store " whose owners you know and trust, or unless you grow your own food from

> " healthy " sources, it seems to be virtually impossible to find food that is

>fragrant, tasty and nutritious in North America.

>

>The central question here is: " Why is N American food so flavourless and

>odourless? " Is it because genetic modification is so widespread, is it

>because everything relies on artificial fertilisers, is it because most

>perishable food is irradiated, prematurely harvested or artificially

>ripened? Why does one have to rely on artificial flavourants, spices, herbs,

>dressings and other disguises to ensure that food has some taste? Note

>that I have not even commented on macronutrient or micronutrient content,

though

>I am sure that there must be some correlation between flavour and nutritional

>value.

>

>There is something seriously wrong with the food industry in N America and

>the public seems to have lost much of its power of discernment and its

>demand for quality. While I was eating out at the " best " steak restaurant at a

>top hotel in Spokane during the NSCA conference last week, my American

>colleagues thought that the expensive house steak was " great " - I tasted some

of the

>most expensive cuts and found that it was amongst the worst " prime " steak I

>have ever ingested (at least the manager refunded my wife the cost of that

>steak). Besides lacking in flavour it was very fatty and sinewy, something

>that one expects from third grade steak, not from a cut that costs over $35

>for a smallish helping. I could hardly believe that we had tasted the same

>product. One of the Aussies there agreed fully with me. Food here has

>become something that is judged far more in terms of quantity and appearance,

>than quality and value. No wonder there is such a flourishing supplement and

>health food industry here!

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff wrote:

<Many of us who have stayed or lived in other countries of the world find

that North American food generally has considerably less flavour and aroma

than its overseas counterparts, even though its external appearance is spotless

and colourful. ........ >

Just to share a contrary experience. Travelling in sub-Saharan Africa, I

found the food to be alarmingly tasteless no matter what it was. There

seemed to be a trend toward cooking the devil out of the food (maybe a

colonial British influence?). Anyway, I was happy to eat North American

upon my return, for the flavour!!

Your mileage may vary . . . . . .

[sub-Saharan Africa covers a large number of vastly different countries and many

different

cultures within each of those countries - which ones did you visit? I have also

eaten in some

sub-Saharan restaurants and found that many of them could not even vaguely

prepare meals

like the local inhabitants at home. However, the raw fruit and vegetables

still had a flavour

and aroma, unlike their equivalents in N America. Mel Siff]

Greg Hart

Calgary, Alberta

[Guest guest]

The reason everything tastes so much better in Europe is because everyhting

in Europe (fruits, vegetables, dairy and meet) is natural without hormones,

GMO's, pesticides, antibiotics and all those killer chemicals used in the

USA. Actually many countries in Europe have laws against the usage of such

chemicals.

I am from Europe, Bulgaria, and I have only been here in the USA

for eleven years, and I still can remember the taste of the food from my

country. Here everything is about money, that is why the food looks so

appealing, but in actuallity it does not taste good and it is pretty much

worthless. So the only solution I can offer you is for you to start buying

organic food from certified distributors only.

Poptodorov

Dunedin, FL

----- Original Message -----

Mel Siff wrote:

<Many of us who have stayed or lived in other countries of the world find

that North American food generally has considerably less flavour and aroma

than its overseas counterparts, even though its external appearance is spotless

and colourful. ........ >

Krista -Dixon:

> Having traveled a fair bit around Europe as well as the US and Canada, I

> must agree with this statement. I try to travel on a relatively sane

> budget and do not eat in expensive restaurants; indeed I rather prefer the

> experience of popping into the local delis, cafes, etc. and seeing what

> they have to offer. Even the low-end culinary offerings of continental Europe

> (and even some parts of the UK) are superior to the average restaurant in

> North America.

>

> In Florence, which is a tourist city where the main restaurants are quite

> pricey, we ate in little hole-in-the-wall dive restaurants where an

> omnipresent TV played the local soccer games. In these little places I

> had some of the best food I have ever experienced, which may have been nothing

> more complicated than a roast chicken and a glass of the house plonk. A

> tiny deli-cafe in Amsterdam, which boasted of nothing more fancy than

> rough wooden floors and tables served fresh yogurt, wonderful coffee, and

> exquisite cheese. A smoky, stinky cheapo bar in Paris produced a

> beautiful selection of fruit and salad. I don't recall seeing anyone in

continental

> Europe (though I did in the UK) running around with styrofoam cups of

> coffee; rather they made coffee a sit-down event. Conversely, in my

> travels across North America, I spent a good deal of my time being miserable

after

> eating the horrendous local offering of greasy, flavourless (and

> vegetable/fruit-free) fuel.

>

> I am lucky to live in a city in which the majority of the population are

> first or second generation immigrants from all over the world. Toronto's

> Chinatown, Kensington, and St.Lawrence markets are my culinary salvation.

> The meat and produce from the large supermarket nearby is not only much

> more expensive, but much less flavourful. The first time we bit into a chicken

> from the butcher in Kensington market, we sat chewing in confusion: the

> chicken tasted odd... unfamiliar... it tasted... like chicken! It

> actually tasted like chicken instead of like styrofoam.

>

> I wish that more North Americans would share the European love of good

> food! It doesn't have to be fancy. Merely a basic attention to freshness,

> taste, and the pleasure of consumption suffices. People are often accused of

> being " food snobs " when they express this view; but what is more crass and

basic

> than being concerned with a happy palate and tummy?

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff:

<This makes one wonder how countries with similar or much larger

populations, like China and Russia manage to feed their millions

without such widespread application of technology.>

These countries have much larger proportion of population in

agriculture. In Russia, it is something like 25% or 50% (I forget),

in China I would imagine it is significantly above 1/2. In US, I

think it is around 3%, which also feeds much of the rest of the world.

Russian commercial agriculture has been a complete disaster for

economic reasons. The country is struggling to feed itself and had to

import wheat even during prosperous Communist times (bread is a staple

food, like rice in Asia). In Russia, American agriculture is

considered a miracle to be studied and emulated.

[However, some non-Chinese sources state that China is extremely efficient in

feeding its

huge population. Does anyone here have any inside information on this topic?

Mel Siff]

Btw, according to a Chinese coworker, in China refrigeration is

uncommon, so food is purchased daily at the market. The result is

very fresh & tasty.

Gleb Arshinov

City, CA USA

[Guest guest]

Both the plastic and the fitness threads have been incredibly interesting.

I always say I have to skim everything today and then get sucked in.

I do wonder about this number of obese Americans. I am 6'2 " , weigh 222, bf

11% (varies according to tests) and I show up as obese on some tests because

somehow they factor in age (63) and the moment my age is factored in, I go

from healthy to obese by the charts because a 63-year-old man should not be

carrying that much weight. There is nothing on the chart where I can point

out that I lift weights 4-5x per week.

Ron Dobrin

New York

www.dolphinfitnessclubs.com