Re: Biotest/Prohormones

[Guest guest]

Tom Incledon wrote: I suspect that any anecdotal reports people have about

prohormones working are due to an increase in body fat that they perceive as

an increase in lean body mass. I have worked with several different

researchers and one consistent trend we noticed is that prohormones actually

increased body fat, not decreased it.

*** I really find this most amazing and is the reason I would be very

interested in seeing the study results when they become available. My

question is the ages of the people involved in the study. I'd also be

interested in who funded the study because unfortunately that can determine

the results, as has been discussed on ST some time ago.

My opinion has always been that younger people don't need prohromones and this

was seconded in a private post from someone who has done a lot of work on the

subject. The comment was that the middle-age adult market is really the one

that would derive the most benefits, but it's a hard market to crack;

bodybuilders are easier (and we all know why). Unfortunately the middle-aged

individual who doesn't understand the bodybuilding mentality and can get

beyond the marketing hype, will not give prohormones a try. I'm not sure

prohormones by themselves are going to do much. As I've always said, you'd

better have all your other ducks in a row as well.

OTH Prohormone and AAS (specifically testosterone) use by middle aged adults

is also seconded by Karlis Ullis, M.D. (a specialist in anti-ageing) who

wouldn't just go saying something like that off the top of his head. Anyone

interested in his thoughts can search the archives of www.musclemonthly.com

for his articles on the subject for both men and women. Karlis does think

that his patients should be in the gym as well and he practices what he

preaches as I've seen him at Gold's on several occasions.

Because I started using prohormones at about age 56 may be the reason I was so

successful with them. I wish I could answer whether my sensitivity to

medications in general or my lack of natural estrogen was what enabled(s) me

to use such low doses (making the product extremely affordable). Women I know

who are in their late 30's to 40's needed twice the dose I got results from.

It's a question that people I have asked can only speculate upon.

I never had any fat gain, or at least subcutaneous fat gain. Maybe I had

intramuscular fat gain, which, of course, would be hard to tell. Prohormones

leaned me out and even though I was eating a lot and on a mass building

program, I could see the outline of my abs for the first time in my life. Not

being a scientist, I really can't explain it except to say I was very happy!

I certainly got stronger and had more endurance. I don't know how you could

make your abs appear with a placebo effect, but I suppose it's possible.

On the flip side, I did have some side effects in the form of oilier skin and

breakouts. This was easily solved by using the products for shorter cycles.

As far as increased libido, the 4-diols and diones did increase it slightly; I

didn't notice that with 1-AD, although I had a much greater increase in

strength than I did from the others.

Personally I'd like to see some scientific research done on prohormone use in

older adults and specifically those who were concurrently in the gym or active

in other sports. As I am finding out the hard way, my body is definitely

changing as I age. So what I needed as a young woman and what I need now are

often quite different. Ah, to be able to turn back the physical clock, to

know what I know now with the body of a 30 year old. Dream on . . .

Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon

Venice, CA

cookiemagic@...

[Guest guest]

Rosemary wrote:

>Because I started using prohormones at about age 56 may be the

reason I was so successful with them. I wish I could answer whether

my sensitivity to medications in general or my lack of natural

estrogen was what enabled(s) me to use such low doses (making the

product extremely affordable).

Is it possible that the prohormone supplements you took simply acted

like hormone replacement therapy as prohormones have been shown to

elevate estrogen-related compounds?

>I never had any fat gain, or at least subcutaneous fat gain. Maybe

I had intramuscular fat gain, which, of course, would be hard to

tell. Prohormones leaned me out and even though I was eating a lot

and on a mass building program, I could see the outline of my abs for

the first time in my life.

An increase in estrogen-related compounds may have different effects

on males versus females. There are some studies suggesting an

increase in bodyfat with increases in estrogen in males, if I recall.

This may not be the case in postmenopausal females.

>Personally I'd like to see some scientific research done on

prohormone use in older adults and specifically those who were

concurrently in the gym or active in other sports. As I am finding

out the hard way, my body is definitely changing as I age.

Here are some studies done you might find interesting:

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Fertil Steril 2001 Aug;76(2):241-8

Oral dehydroepiandrosterone supplementation modulates spontaneous and

growth hormone-releasing hormone-induced growth hormone and insulin-

like growth factor-1 secretion in early and late postmenopausal women.

Genazzani AD, Stomati M, Strucchi C, Puccetti S, i S, Genazzani

AR.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Modena,

Modena, Italy

Objective: To evaluate the effects of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA)

supplementation on the growth hormone-releasing hormone-growth

hormone (GHRH-GH) axis in lean and obese postmenopausal women.Design:

Prospective study.Setting: Postmenopausal women in a clinical

research environment.Patient(s): Thirty-one postmenopausal women were

divided in two groups by age (50 to 55 and 60 to 65 years). Within

each group, lean and obese patients were considered.Intervention(s):

All patients underwent hormonal evaluations before and at the third

and sixth month of therapy (50 mg of DHEA orally each day) and a GHRH

test (1 & mgr;g/kg) before and at the sixth month of treatment.

Ultrasound and bone mass density (BMD) examinations were performed

before and after the sixth month of therapy.Main Outcome Measure(s):

Plasma dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate

(DHEAS), E(1), E(2), androstenedione (A), testosterone (T),

osteocalcin, GH, insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1)

concentrations.Result(s): The levels of all of the steroids that

derived from DHEA metabolism (E(1), E(2), A, T, DHEAS) and

osteocalcin were increased in plasma under DHEA supplementation. The

supplementation protocol also increased the levels of GH and IGF-1.

However, GHRH-induced GH and IGF-1 responses were not modified by

DHEA supplementation.Conclusion(s): Administration of DHEA

significantly affects several endocrine parameters in early and late

postmenopausal women independently from body mass index. Our data

support the hypothesis that DHEA treatment acts similarly to estrogen-

progestin replacement therapy on the GHRH-GH-IGF-1 axis. This

suggests that DHEA is more than a more than a simple " diet

supplement " or " antiaging product " ; rather it should be considered an

effective hormonal replacement treatment.

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Arch Intern Med 2000 Nov 13;160(20):3093-104

The Andro Project: physiological and hormonal influences of

androstenedione supplementation in men 35 to 65 years old

participating in a high-intensity resistance training program.

Broeder CE, Quindry J, Brittingham K, Panton L, Thomson J, Appakondu

S, Breuel K, Byrd R, J, Earnest C, C, Olson M, Roy

T, Yarlagadda C.

The Human Performance Lab, East Tennessee State University, Box

70654, City, TN 37614-0654, USA. broeder@...

BACKGROUND: Since the passage of The Dietary Supplement Health and

Education Act in 1994, there has been a flood of new " dietary "

supplements promoting anti-aging benefits such as the enhancement of

growth hormone or testosterone levels. Androstenediol and

androstenedione are such products. This study's purpose was to

elucidate the physiological and hormonal effects of 200 mg/d of oral

androstenediol and androstenedione supplementation in men aged 35 to

65 years while participating in a 12-week high-intensity resistance

training program. METHODS: Fifty men not consuming any androgenic-

enhancing substances and with normal total testosterone levels,

prostate-specific antigen, hemoglobin, and hematocrit, and with no

sign of cardiovascular or metabolic diseases participated. Subjects

were randomly assigned to a placebo, androstenediol (diol), or

androstenedione (dione) group using a double-blind study design. Main

outcomes included serum sex hormone profile, body composition

assessment, muscular strength, and blood lipid profiles. RESULTS:

During the 12 weeks of androstenedione or androstenediol use, a

significant increase in the aromatization by-products estrone and

estradiol was observed in both groups (P =.03). In the dione group,

total testosterone levels significantly increased 16% after 1 month

of use, but by the end of 12 weeks, they returned to pretreatment

levels. This return to baseline levels resulted from increases in

aromatization and down-regulation in endogenous testosterone

synthesis based on the fact that luteinizing hormone was attenuated

18% to 33% during the treatment period. Neither androstenediol nor

androstenedione enhanced the adaptations to resistance training

compared with placebo for body composition or muscular strength.

However, both androstenediol and androstenedione supplementation

adversely affected high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C)

levels, coronary heart disease risk (representing a 6.5% increase),

and each group's respective (low-density lipoprotein cholesterol [LDL-

C]/HDL-C)/(apolipoprotein A/apolipoprotein lipid ratio (diol:

+5.2%; dione: +10.5%; P =.05). In contrast, the placebo group's HDL-C

levels increased 5.1%, with a 12.3% decline in the (LDL-C/HDL-C)/

(apolipoprotein A/apolipoprotein lipid ratio. These negative and

positive lipid effects occurred despite no significant alterations in

body composition or dietary intakes in the supplemental groups or

placebo group, respectively. CONCLUSIONS: Testosterone precursors do

not enhance adaptations to resistance training when consumed in

dosages recommended by manufacturers. Testosterone precursor

supplementation does result in significant increases in estrogen-

related compounds, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate concentrations,

down-regulation in testosterone synthesis, and unfavorable

alterations in blood lipid and coronary heart disease risk profiles

of men aged 35 to 65 years.

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Gynecol Endocrinol 2000 Oct;14(5):342-63

Six-month oral dehydroepiandrosterone supplementation in early and

late postmenopause.

Stomati M, Monteleone P, Casarosa E, Quirici B, Puccetti S, Bernardi

F, Genazzani AD, Rovati L, i M, Genazzani AR.

Department of Reproductive Medicine and Child Development, University

of Pisa, Italy.

The adrenal production of the delta 5-androgens,

dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate ester

dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS), declines linearly with aging.

The evidence that DHEA or DHEAS administration may alleviate some of

the problems related to aging has opened new perspectives for

clinical research. The present study aims to investigate the effects

of a 6-month DHEA supplementation in early and late postmenopausal

women, with normal or overweight body mass index (BMI), on the level

of circulating steroids, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), beta-

endorphin and gonadotropins, and on the adrenal gland response to

dexamethasone suppression and adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH)

stimulation. Early postmenopausal women (50-55 years) both normal

weight (BMI 20-24, n = 9) and overweight (BMI 26-30, n = 9) and late

postmenopausal women (60-65 years) both of normal weight and

overweight, were treated with oral DHEA (50 mg/day). Circulating

DHEA, DHEAS, 17-OH pregnenolone, progesterone, 17-OH progesterone,

allopregnenolone, androstenedione, testosterone, dihydrotestosterone,

estrone, estradiol, SHBG, cortisol, luteinizing hormone, follicle

stimulating hormone and beta-endorphin levels were evaluated monthly

and a Kupperman score was performed. The product/precursor ratios of

adrenal steroid levels were used to assess the relative activities of

the adrenal cortex enzymes. Before and after 3 and 6 months of

therapy, each women underwent an ACTH stimulating test (10 micrograms

i.v. in bolus) after dexamethasone administration (0.5 mg p.o.) to

evaluate the response of cortisol, DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione, 17-

OH pregnenolone, allopregnanolone, progesterone and 17-OH

progesterone. The between-group differences observed before treatment

disappeared during DHEA administration. Levels of 17-OH pregnenolone

remained constant during the 6 months. Levels of DHEA, DHEAS,

androstenedione, testosterone and dihydrotestosterone increased

progressively from the first month of treatment. Levels of estradiol

and estrone significantly increased after the first/second month of

treatment. Levels of SHBG significantly decreased from the second

month of treatment only in overweight late postmenopausal women,

while the other groups showed constant levels. Progesterone levels

remained constant in all groups, while 17-OH progesterone levels

showed a slight but significant increase in all groups.

Allopregnanolone and plasma beta-endorphin levels increased

progressively and significantly in the four groups, reaching values

three times higher than baseline. Levels of cortisol and

gonadotropins progressively decreased in all groups. The

product/precursor ratios of adrenal steroid levels at the sixth month

were used to assess the relative activities of the adrenal cortex

enzymes and were compared to those found before therapy. The 17,20-

desmolase, sulfatase and/or sulfotransferase, 17,20-lyase and 5 alpha-

reductase activities significantly increased, while the 3 beta-

hydroxysteroid-oxidoreductase activity did not vary. On the contrary,

the 11-hydroxylase and/or 21-hydroxylase activities showed a

significant decrease after 6 months of treatment. In basal

conditions, dexamethasone significantly suppressed all the adrenal

steroids and this suppression was greater after 3 and 6 months of

treatment for DHEA, DHEAS and allopregnanolone, while it remained

unchanged for other steroids. Before treatment, ACTH stimulus induced

a significant response in all parameters; after the treatment, it

prompted a greater response in delta 5- and delta 4-androgens,

progesterone and 17-OH progesterone, while cortisol responded less in

both younger and older normal-weight women. The endometrial thickness

did not show significant modifications in any of the groups of

postmenopausal women during the 6 months of treatment. Treatment with

DHEA was associated with a progressive improvement of the Kupperman

score in all groups, with major effects on the vasomotor symptoms in

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Gus Karageorgos

Toronto, Canada

[Guest guest]

Sorry for being late in replying those on the list who provided some advice

and opinions on my statements. I've been gone this week trying to help my 90

year old mother get rid of years of accumulation so she can move to Santa

next month.

Gus K wrote: Is it possible that the prohormone supplements you took simply

acted like hormone replacement therapy as prohormones have been shown to

elevate estrogen-related compounds?

*** This is a question I've been asking for a long time. The DHEA studies you

provided as regards postmenopausal women were very interesting. I tried DHEA

for a short while before prohormones hit the market, but didn't like it. It's

been several years so I don't remember the exact reasons, but I recall not

feeling very good even though I used a very minimal dose. Prohormones never

made me feel bad; to the contrary, I always felt better when I use(d) them.

Of course, if you can go in and tear up the gym, that always makes one feel

better! Since DHEA is related to prohormones, one might infer that

prohormones in post-menopausal women act the same way.

Tom Incledon wrote: What continues to amaze me is why people would buy

prohormones when it

is easy to get a prescription for testosterone creams, patches, gels,

etc.There is a quite a bit more research on how to use testosterone safely and

doctors are more aware of what should be monitored.

*** It's not really easy at all. You may recall my story about my HMO doctor

wanting to give me estrogen when I was 52 even though I never asked for it or

complained of any menopausal symptoms. When I requested testosterone instead,

he just laughed, told me I had a good point, but wouldn't prescribe it. I now

know a doctor who would give it to me if, after doing a blood profile,

determined I needed it. However, it would cost me a lot of money I don't have

at the present time because I doubt my insurance would cover it unless I had a

real need to see him for reasons other than vanity or not wanting to grow old.

OTH, If I want prohormones, all I need to do is go down to the corner

supplement store and buy them.

Yes, it would be wise to have the blood work done (which was also recommended

from everything I read prior to taking DHEA), but alas, this would be out of

pocket and is very expensive here in West LA. If you're going to have an

inexpensive way of doing this at some time, I'd like to know about it and what

other things your lab will do. As far as the results of the study you

mentioned, whenever . . .

Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon

Venice, CA

cookiemagic@...

[Guest guest]

" Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon " <CookieMagic@m...> wrote:

>

> *** This is a question I've been asking for a long time. The DHEA studies you

> provided as regards postmenopausal women were very interesting. I tried DHEA

> for a short while before prohormones hit the market, but didn't like it. It's

> been several years so I don't remember the exact reasons, but I recall not

> feeling very good even though I used a very minimal dose. Prohormones never

> made me feel bad; to the contrary, I always felt better when I use(d) them.

You are not the first person to comment like this about DHEA. I have

a theory as to why DHEA makes some people anxious and dysphoric.

DHEA is quite well documented to have antagonistic effects on GABA(A)

receptors. This can be thought of as essentially the opposite of what

an anxiolytic benzodiazepines (like valium) does to your brain. I

think that for certain individuals that are prone to GABA related

anxiety problems, the DHEA may exacerbate their miserable feelings.

OTOH, maybe someone else who has a different brain chemistry may feel

the DHEA / GABA effect as stimulating and energizing

Other prohormones (with possible exception of 5-diol) do not share

this neurological effect of DHEA, so they do not promote these psychological

effects.

Arnold

Illinois