Re: More Gender Differences in Training

[Guest guest]

I would like to echo Krista's requests, and add a couple more.

I have read a number of drug testing incidents involving women who are

perimenopausal or menopausal, with regard to steroid testing in the drug

tested sports, under IOC in particular. I wonder if there isn't something

being missed in the population of women - since the tests check testosterone

levels and changes in hormones are part of menopause? fluctuations?

perhaps that might merit investigation.

I would also heartily LOVE to read more on women overall in strength

training, the aging process, and believe it or not, pregnancy and the

competing lifter. Yes, pregnancy and powerlifting, or Olympic lifting,

specifically those on platform, not just training for their own amusement.

There appears to be a great amount of data on women performing elite aerobic

athletics while pregnant, but a silence regarding heavy training while

expecting a bundle of joy. I suspect that conventional medicine would say

" don't. " .

As a woman competing and of reproductive age, that is a topic I am

interested in seeing at least some investigation.

With regard to your question about post exercise depression, I would say

there is no incidence here (n also = 1) personally, with one

exception/instance due to this reason. If I miss my nutritional window - If

I fail to eat with the first 2 hours post workout, I feel my spirits

plummet, along with my energy level, most significantly. Therefore I am

sure to eat SOMETHING in a timely fashion. I also have had one other person

relate a very frightening episode, where she threatened herself with

physical harm, due to not eating properly post workout (her mood, and her

problem, disappeared with intake of a protein shake). So I'm not sure how

you view that - it's linked to not eating, quickly and sufficiently, post

workout in the only instances I'm aware of, anecdotally and my own sole

instance. Part of the question is are we looking for mood problems post

workout over time - or an isolated incident possibly due to failure to eat

properly?

Good luck with your research and warmest regards,

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, Powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: More Gender Differences in Training

>

>----- Original Message -----

>From: " Elzinator Unreal " <elzinator@...>

>>

>> Please let me know what issues from the above mentioned MM column you

wish

>> to discuss further. I am running out of ideas for topics (currently

>writing

>> one on Exercise and Pregnancy)and welcome feedback in what others are

>> interested in.

>

>

>I thought the material on cortisol was particularly interesting, as was the

>stuff on thyroid hormones. I wouldn't mind seeing more of that,

particularly

>in the context of assigning appropriate training and diet protocols. What I

>find most intriguing is the intersection between body and behaviour: female

>athletes can often get into particular patterns, either thru their choice

or

>their coach's, and the resulting hormonal status of some combination of

>overtraining and caloric restriction is quite interesting. Maybe it's just

>that I'd like to have some ammo to fire at my sister's cheerleading coach

>who has them training on a grueling schedule as well as watching their

>weight stringently (trying to keep them all in double-digit weight).

>

>I also like a lot of the emerging stuff on women and menstrual cycle. I've

>been pestering all the women I know for more information about how they

feel

>subjectively over their cycles, in terms of things like strength, energy,

>appetite, pain of injury, etc.

>

>And I would walk over my mother's future grave for some decent research on

>women and strength training. I think we have all had quite enough of

>studies on endurance athletes! We still know so little about quite

basic

>topics: strength training young women, pregnant women, older women, etc.

>The world does not need another VO2 max study or studies showing one set to

>failure works on people who have never touched a weight; it is high time

for

>studies of strength training on experienced female lifters across

>demographic categories.

>

>

>

>> The topics I'm

>> currently investigating probably have little interest for others than

>myself

>> (e.g. Did you know that women, both young and old, have similar muscle

>> satellite cell populations as men? But our satellite cells and the

nuclear

>> area are larger, with a lower nuclear area/cell area ratio. How does this

>> influence the muscle regeneration capacity of both young and older

women?)

>

>

>Given the aging population and the growing influx of older women into gyms,

>as well as older women who used to be young athletes, I should think this

>type of research would be quite lucrative and interesting for the rest of

>us.

>

>

>> Any women

>> here experience post-exercise depression?

>>

>

>

>Sorry, this n=1 does not. But do let us know what you find.

>

>

>Krista -Dixon

>Toronto, ON

>

>

>

>

>Modify or cancel your subscription here:

>

>mygroups

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Elzi -- The article on Muscle Monthly was excellent and obviously only touched

the tip of the iceberg.

On a personal note, what really changed me from a fat to thin woman with no

strength and empowered me in the bargain in all aspects of my life was

resistance training. I'd been part of the aerobic dancing craze since 1978.

It was fun and got my juices flowing. In my case, the floor work in

Jazzercise (at it existed in those days) provided at least a tiny bit of

strength work in the form of leg raises, curls and pushups.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but what really got rid of my fat stores

was adding muscle mass which increased my sluggish middle aged metabolism and

put it back into high gear like it was when I was in my 20's and 30's. (And

yes, Matt, I agree, I think cardio is painful and boring. When I want intense

cardio, I do a 20-rep set of some kind of compound exercise with light weight.)

When I began lifting weights that I perceived as heavy and started thinking

about what I ate, the fat slowly disappeared. I don't believe in going hungry

but there's a big difference in stuffing yourself full of the right kind of

food versus eating a lot of simple carbs and sweets. Although I've gone

through periods of anal calorie counting and measuring, like The Phantom, I no

longer worry about it too much. OTH, I'm not a junker, either, or at least

most of the time. What's interesting about this is that I'm not adding fat

even though I'm not watching every morsel.

As far as being depressed after a workout, never! In fact, just the opposite.

When I was still working, there were days I would drag home after a rough day,

look at my gym and think, " Oh no, I can't do that. " But as someone who spent a

lot of time doing things I didn't necessarily want to do or feel like doing at

the moment, I went in anyway. I can only recall two times in the 12 years I

used my home gym that I actually packed it in before I finished. What usually

happened is that I emerged from the gym in an elevated mood, a raging appetite

and the ability to finally relax and get a decent night's sleep. In other

words, I left my stress at the squat rack, even though I might have limped

away from it.

Elzi, if you (or anyone else for that matter) needs anecdotal evidence as to

how weight training affects experienced women who train and you have some

specific questions, please don't hesitate to ask. I'm sure I speak for all

the women on this list.

Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon

Venice, CA

[Guest guest]

From: Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon <CookieMagic@...>

<Elzi -- The article on Muscle Monthly was excellent and obviously only

touched the tip of the iceberg.

On a personal note, what really changed me from a fat to thin woman with

no strength and empowered me in the bargain in all aspects of my life was

resistance training. I'd been part of the aerobic dancing craze since

1978. It was fun and got my juices flowing. In my case, the floor work in

Jazzercise (at it existed in those days) provided at least a tiny bit of

strength work in the form of leg raises, curls and pushups.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but what really got rid of my fat

stores was adding muscle mass which increased my sluggish middle aged metabolism

and put it back into high gear like it was when I was in my 20's and 30's.

(And yes, Matt, I agree, I think cardio is painful and boring. When I want

intense cardio, I do a 20-rep set of some kind of compound exercise with light

weight.)

When I began lifting weights that I perceived as heavy and started

thinking about what I ate, the fat slowly disappeared. I don't believe in going

hungry but there's a big difference in stuffing yourself full of the right kind

of food versus eating a lot of simple carbs and sweets. Although I've gone

through periods of anal calorie counting and measuring, like The Phantom,

I no longer worry about it too much. OTH, I'm not a junker, either, or at

least most of the time. What's interesting about this is that I'm not adding

fat even though I'm not watching every morsel.

As far as being depressed after a workout, never! In fact, just the

opposite. When I was still working, there were days I would drag home after a

rough

day, look at my gym and think, " Oh no, I can't do that. " But as someone who

spent a lot of time doing things I didn't necessarily want to do or feel like

doing at the moment, I went in anyway. I can only recall two times in the 12

years

I used my home gym that I actually packed it in before I finished. What

usually happened is that I emerged from the gym in an elevated mood, a raging

appetite and the ability to finally relax and get a decent night's sleep. In

other

words, I left my stress at the squat rack, even though I might have limped away

from it.

Elzi, if you (or anyone else for that matter) needs anecdotal evidence as

to how weight training affects experienced women who train and you have some

specific questions, please don't hesitate to ask. I'm sure I speak for

all the women on this list.>

While I am happy for you and others who strength train, I feel the need to

comment on the attitude towards aerobics and endurance training. Of course,

many who are here in strength arena came here because they tried the aerobix

stuff and didn't like it. IOW, our group is somewhat self selected. We

wouldn't be HERE if we weren't interested in strength and/or maybe more

interested in strength than endurance sports. However, the effectiveness of

distance running etc. for women and men in reducing bodyfat (bf), increasing

self-esteeem, general wellness, etc. is something that I have seen

anecdotally scores of times.

I have known many women (and men) who hate resistance training, and love

endurance, who maintain low bf and quite

aesthetic physiques through same. My point is that there are tons of

success stories on the other side of the coin (endurance sports) among both

men and women and that, despite the fact that I lift and don't do endurance

sports (anymore), I readily recognize their healthful and joyful aspects for

millions of people here in the US.

The secret is to find what YOU like, then do that. For many, it will be

more strength oriented, but for others it will be more endurance oriented.

FWIW, the one thing I miss most about running is racing. Competing in

OLing, PLing, whatever cannot compare, imo, to the thrill of racing

somebody, the strategy, the sprint to the finish, winning by an arm's

length, etc. While PLing competitions are fun to watch and compete in, imo

one of the great draws of running, triathlon, etc. is the thrill of racing.

That is an aside, of course.

Whitney Richtmyer

Seattle, WA

[Guest guest]

I will combine responses to Rosemary and Whitney in a single post:

Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon <CookieMagic@...> wrote:

<Elzi -- The article on Muscle Monthly was excellent and obviously only touched

the tip of the iceberg.

On a personal note, what really changed me from a fat to thin woman with

no strength and empowered me in the bargain in all aspects of my life was

resistance training. <snip personal testimony>

When I began lifting weights that I perceived as heavy and started

thinking about what I ate, the fat slowly disappeared. I don't believe in

going hungry but there's a big difference in stuffing yourself full of the

right kind of food versus eating a lot of simple carbs and sweets.>

What I stress to my clients is the importance of lifelong lifestyle changes,

not just jumping on the fitness bandwagon for a few weeks or months hoping

for miracles. That requires providing them with basic knowlege of nutrition,

phyisology, and exercise so that they can tailor the information to their

own circumstances. It also involves a fair component of psychology. Working

with the typical Austin population largely comprised of computer techs who

work long hours sitting down has been a challenge. There is a great deal of

compromise involved.

Any fat loss, or weight regulation, approach is primarily comprised of two

components: nutrition and total exercise program. Nutrition entails what and

how much you eat; exercise entails both resistance and

cardiovascular-respiratory training. Each of these can be tweaked according

to the individual and their parameters.

One of the largest battles I have found working with women (both athletes

and non-athletes) is the tendancy for high carbohydrate consumption. While I

originally thought this culturally-driven, I learned gleaning from the

literature that there is also a physiological component. (see my article on

" Why Women Love Carbohydrates " -and the one on chocolate- on coachsos.com)

As a person who doesn't care for most carb foods and is a meat and fish

lover, I had trouble emphasizing with this inherent female tendancy until I

learned the physiological reasons contributing to it.

--------------------

" Whit " <whittt@...> wrote:

<While I am happy for you and others who strength train, I feel the need to

comment on the attitude towards aerobics and endurance training. Of

course, many who are here in strength arena came here because they tried

the aerobix stuff and didn't like it. IOW, our group is somewhat self

selected. We wouldn't be HERE if we weren't interested in strength and/or

maybe more interested in strength than endurance sports. However, the

effectiveness of distance running etc. for women and men in reducing

bodyfat (bf), increasing self-esteeem, general wellness, etc. is something

that I have seen anecdotally scores of times.>

I have known many women (and men) who hate resistance training, and love

endurance, who maintain low bf and quite aesthetic physiques through same.

My point is that there are tons of success stories on the other side of the

coin (endurance sports) among both men and women and that, despite the fact

that I lift and don't do endurance sports (anymore), I readily recognize

their healthful and joyful aspects for millions of people here in the US.>

I can't agree with you more, Whit. And I have repeatedly commented thusly on

mfw and elsewhere that aerobic training has merits, too. It, just like

resistance training, can be done to excess, which is where I think some of

the disdain by the weightlifting population originates from, in addition to

the fact that most facility-confined aerobic activities tend to qiuckly

become monotonous and boring.

I realize that most weightlifters detest performing aerobic activity and

some will offer many reasons (evidence based and not)to support and affrim

their dislike. I don't care for it either. But the simple fact is, in order

to maintain fitness of our cardiovascular-respiratory system, we must train

aerobically. That does not mean we all need to jump on the treadmills four

times/week. A sensible and effective aerobic training program can be

accomplished with a reasonable amount of time and effort, depending on

individual goals and physiology.

[Mel Siff Certainly! Research has shown that much shorter periods of interval

training of

mixed high and low intensity can offer similar benefits to prolonged periods of

classical 'aerobic' training. For those who wish to include some cardiovascular

training

in their programs without compromising their strength and mass gains, interval

training

can be very useful. ]

Much to the chagrin of women, some amount of aerobic activity is almost

essential for an effective fat loss program. Because of the inherent gender

differences in physiology, fat loss is much easier for men than women, and

the addition of a sensible aerobic training program can not only enhance fat

loss, but also help mobilize fat loss from certain adipose depots, such as

the gluteo-femoral region.

Another supporting factor is supplied by the recent article that found

VO2max highly correlated with insulin-stimulated glucose clearance in

middle-aged, premenopausal women. This is also parallel with some of the

findings in glucose clearance and exercise coming out research on insulin

resistance and exercise.

< The secret is to find what YOU like, then do that. For many, it will be

more strength oriented, but for others it will be more endurance oriented.

FWIW, the one thing I miss most about running is racing. Competing in

OLing, PLing, whatever cannot compare, imo, to the thrill of racing

somebody, the strategy, the sprint to the finish, winning by an arm's

length, etc. While PLing competitions are fun to watch and compete in, imo

one of the great draws of running, triathlon, etc. is the thrill of racing.>

Each person has personal preferences. While I don't necessarily share your's

for running, Whit, I am well acquainted with the similar thrill of distance

swimming. In addition to the well-recognized physiological effects of

specific modes of training, there is also the psychological component(which

is related to the physiological), which may differ for activities as well as

each individual. When I must refrain from weight training (like right now)

due to my spinal limitations, I swim. A lot. It provides a similar

psychological effect (as most driven athletes are acquainted with that

psychological 'addiction')and release in lieu of weight training. In

addition, it helps maintain my insulin sensitivity. So the benefits are

two-fold.

[Mel Siff: Having back problems does not necessarily mean eliminating all

weight training. One can

avoid any exercises which exacerbate your back problems, and if legs are a

concern, you can

always do squats with weights suspended from special weight belts hanging below

the waist.

There are numerous strength exercises that you can do even if you have back

problems. Others

on the list might like to offer other suggestions. ]

Elzi Volk

Austin, Texas

[Guest guest]

I include responses to both Krista's and 's posts in this single post.

> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 06:38:15 -0400

>----- Original Message -----

>From: " Elzinator Unreal " <elzinator@...>

> >

> > Please let me know what issues from the above mentioned MM column you

>wish to discuss further. I am running out of ideas for topics (currently

>writing one on Exercise and Pregnancy)and welcome feedback in what others

>are interested in.>

" Krista--Dixon " <kristasd@...> wrote:

>I thought the material on cortisol was particularly interesting, as was the

>stuff on thyroid hormones. I wouldn't mind seeing more of that,

>particularly in the context of assigning appropriate training and diet

>protocols.>

The cortisol system is highly complex, as Sapolsky has mentioned and

demonstrated repeatedly in the his studies (he is one of the most noteworthy

researchers in stress response). The studies demonstrating cortisol

responses in training, both endurance and in resistance, are often

contradictory. Possibly because there are so many factors that play roles in

cortisol regulation (e.g. leptin, ACTH, DRH, GHRH, insulin, etc).

It is not surprising that plasma [cortisol] typcially increases in response

to an acute episode of endurance training, but does not change or exhibits

less change with chronic endurance training. I'm sure this is just one of

the many features of adaptation. What was surprising was the related lower

basal [cortisol] in males after resistance training, but not in females.

Whether this is directly sex hormone mediated or influenced more by other

factors, such as nutritional status has not been addressed. Tarnopolsky

suggests further investigation of gender differences in the glucocorticoid

receptor activation as well as plasma [cortisol].

One of the most important cortisol antagonists is insulin. I am aware of one

study where they looked at ingesting a carb-containing beverage during

resistance training to modulate associated cortisol changes, but I don't

recall if they included females in the study group. I know from my own

experience that it reduces fatigue, but since I still haven't developed a

way to analyze my hormone levels during and around training, even though I

am a willing guinea pig, I can't offer any credible data. Even then, n=1,

and I may not be a good candidate since my hormones (insulin, androgens,

etc) are not considered 'normal' (PCOS-associated insulin resistance and

high androgen levels).

Considering that corisol is a keen topic of interest for trainees, I may be

able to glean some prelinimary info from a researcher who measured cortisol

levels adjunct with glucose, etc. in heavy eccentric training. But realize

that the protocol was one that is not typically used by the average

gym-trainee, and I know that no females were included in the subject

population.

<What I find most intriguing is the intersection between body and behaviour:

female athletes can often get into particular patterns, either thru their

choice or their coach's, and the resulting hormonal status of some

combination of overtraining and caloric restriction is quite interesting.

Maybe it's just that I'd like to have some ammo to fire at my sister's

cheerleading coach who has them training on a grueling schedule as well as

watching their weight stringently (trying to keep them all in double-digit

weight).>

This is unfortunately typical in similar sports, especially gymnastics,

which is why many of the female athlete triad (and anorexia) studies were

done with female gymnists. There is an interesting book examining this very

issue, albeit without the emphasis on physiology, but I can't recall the

name at this time. And you are well acquainted with the

cultural/sociological factor in these sports: the perception of girls/women

and body image. You won't find many overweight girls as cheerleaders. It's

not 'acceptable.'

>I also like a lot of the emerging stuff on women and menstrual cycle. I've

>been pestering all the women I know for more information about how they

>feel subjectively over their cycles, in terms of things like strength,

>energy, appetite, pain of injury, etc.

>

>And I would walk over my mother's future grave for some decent research on

>women and strength training. I think we have all had quite enough of

>studies on endurance athletes! We still know so little about quite

>basic topics: strength training young women, pregnant women, older women,

>etc.

>The world does not need another VO2 max study or studies showing one set to

>failure works on people who have never touched a weight; it is high time

>for studies of strength training on experienced female lifters across

>demographic categories.>

I agree. But the reality is that strength training is more difficult

(complex) to study than endurance. VO2max is easier to measure. Strength

training is influenced by so many variables and it is very difficult to

control for all of those variables. The other factor is there is more money

in endurance sports than in strength sports. That also influences the

research focus (funding sources).

Resistance training research is increasing, but primarily focusing on other

populations than elite athletes. It emphsizes the aging, diabetic, and

muscle pathology populations. These interests drive the funding and the

research focus. That's academic reality. There is, however, more pressure on

including women and analyzing data appropriately in these studies. Which is

why my research focus is glucose transport, muscle biology and women. I hit

them all

> > The topics I'm currently investigating probably have little interest for

>others than myself (e.g. Did you know that women, both young and old, have

>similar muscle satellite cell populations as men? But our satellite cells

>and the nuclear area are larger, with a lower nuclear area/cell area ratio.

>How does this influence the muscle regeneration capacity of both young and

>older women?)>

>Given the aging population and the growing influx of older women into

>gyms,as well as older women who used to be young athletes, I should think

>this type of research would be quite lucrative and interesting for the rest

>of us.>

The emphasis on research in sarcopenia is increasing. Which is driving basic

research into muscle development, growth and regeneration. The NIH-funded

research projects are booming in the last few years due to the increasing

aging population, interests in disease-associated muscle loss and

weightlessness (the latter mostly NASA funded). I'm sure that some of this

basic research may also benefit athletes and the average gym trainee as

well. Interestingly, bodybuilders are frequently a population studied

because of muscle hypertrophy association. Talk about top-down research

>Message: 24

> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:10:17 -0600

> From: " Schaefer " <thephantom198@...>

>I would like to echo Krista's requests, and add a couple more.

>

>I have read a number of drug testing incidents involving women who are

perimenopausal or menopausal, with regard to steroid testing in the drug

>tested sports, under IOC in particular. I wonder if there isn't something

>being missed in the population of women - since the tests check

>testosterone levels and changes in hormones are part of menopause?

>fluctuations? perhaps that might merit investigation.>

I'm sure there are instances where some women's natural hormonal milieu

challenge the standards associated with the athletic associations. I am

probably one of those, as my androgen levels are normally high for a female

due to Polycystic Ovary Syndrome. I know of another female athlete whose

baseline androgen levels are relatively high because of an enzyme

dysfunction.

If Mauro di Pasqule is on this list (is he?), he could offer more insight

into the testing standards and politics. We have discussed it a few times

and he has some interesting comments.

>I would also heartily LOVE to read more on women overall in strength

>training, the aging process, and believe it or not, pregnancy and the

competing lifter. Yes, pregnancy and powerlifting, or Olympic lifting,

specifically those on platform, not just training for their own amusement.

There appears to be a great amount of data on women performing elite aerobic

athletics while pregnant, but a silence regarding heavy training while

expecting a bundle of joy. I suspect that conventional medicine would say

" don't " .>

While I would argue with your use of the term " amusement " in reference to

the training woman, I hope that your use was not derogatory. There are many

women who take their training very seriously but choose not to compete or,

for one reason or another, are restricted from competing.

I know several women who have weight trained during pregnancy, up until the

last week of their gestation. I have trained four pregnant women, two who

had gestational diabetes. I worked closely with their physicians who

monitored their continuing prenancy status and only one had to discontinue

due to possible fetal complications, unassociated with training. I recall

hearing that one of the US top female OL'ers competed while pregnant, but

there is NO data on pregnant elite weight training athletes during

competition.

>With regard to your question about post exercise depression, I would say

>there is no incidence here (n also = 1) personally, with one

>exception/instance due to this reason. If I miss my nutritional window -

>If I fail to eat with the first 2 hours post workout, I feel my spirits

>plummet, along with my energy level, most significantly. Therefore I am

>sure to eat SOMETHING in a timely fashion.I also have had one other person

>relate a very frightening episode, where she threatened herself with

>physical harm, due to not eating properly post workout (her mood, and her

>problem, disappeared with intake of a protein shake). So I'm not sure how

>you view that - it's linked to not eating, quickly and sufficiently, post

>workout in the only instances I'm aware of, anecdotally and my own sole

>instance. >

That sounds typically like hypoglycemia. Which can manifest or be perceived

as depression. This issue was raised during one of our discussions on the

topic. Considering that during part of the menstrual cycle, women are more

predisposed to hypoglycemia and it is exacerbated by exercise(and I have

seen a few women faint in the gym because of this), this may be the cause of

the episodes you related.

Elzi Volk

Austin, TX

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much for the detailed response, Elzi, and no, the word

" amusement " was not meant in a derogatory meaning, but verbatim. For their

own pleasure or end results, NOT for competition. (I, too, lift for my own

amusement as well as for competition - that's the only explanation for some

more vanity driven lifting I've performed, outside of my PL workouts from

time to time...) The problems of women competing in the iron sports can

differ from the challenges of women overall in weight training. There are

multitudes of women out there lifting for their own purposes, and not for

competition. I support their presence in the gym and encourage those around

me to lift or compete, whatever suits them.

I must admit, I do eagerly read information put forth on women performing

strength training or studies on women performing weight training - only to

find that the weights and sets involved are not comparable to me or other

powerlifters - or even serious, non-competing lifters (like Krista, for

example). And you have confirmed the problem as far as lack of information

regarding competing PL and OL under the circumstances of pregnancy and

menopause. The media seems determined to both grant, and then withdraw the

permission to lift weights....reading magazines devoted to women overall

seems to give a double sided view - " toning " and other horrors like

" sculpting " ... and that idiotic, but still prevailing myth about getting

BULKY! (as Mel is fond of pointing out, eev had GREAT tone....)

As serious lifters and competing athletes, we are all walking

experiments...and as statistical anomalies, cannot depend on studies or

generalities fitting us. But there appears to be far more information on

the hard core lifter male than on women in weight training in general....

and the hard core lifter female is virtually invisible it seems....

Warmest regards,

the Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: More Gender Differences in Training

>I include responses to both Krista's and 's posts in this single post.

>

>

>> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 06:38:15 -0400

>>----- Original Message -----

>>From: " Elzinator Unreal " <elzinator@...>

>> >

>> > Please let me know what issues from the above mentioned MM column you

>>wish to discuss further. I am running out of ideas for topics (currently

>>writing one on Exercise and Pregnancy)and welcome feedback in what others

>>are interested in.>

>

> " Krista--Dixon " <kristasd@...> wrote:

>>I thought the material on cortisol was particularly interesting, as was

the

>>stuff on thyroid hormones. I wouldn't mind seeing more of that,

>>particularly in the context of assigning appropriate training and diet

>>protocols.>

>

>The cortisol system is highly complex, as Sapolsky has mentioned and

>demonstrated repeatedly in the his studies (he is one of the most

noteworthy

>researchers in stress response). The studies demonstrating cortisol

>responses in training, both endurance and in resistance, are often

>contradictory. Possibly because there are so many factors that play roles

in

>cortisol regulation (e.g. leptin, ACTH, DRH, GHRH, insulin, etc).

>

>It is not surprising that plasma [cortisol] typcially increases in response

>to an acute episode of endurance training, but does not change or exhibits

>less change with chronic endurance training. I'm sure this is just one of

>the many features of adaptation. What was surprising was the related lower

>basal [cortisol] in males after resistance training, but not in females.

>Whether this is directly sex hormone mediated or influenced more by other

>factors, such as nutritional status has not been addressed. Tarnopolsky

>suggests further investigation of gender differences in the glucocorticoid

>receptor activation as well as plasma [cortisol].

>

>One of the most important cortisol antagonists is insulin. I am aware of

one

>study where they looked at ingesting a carb-containing beverage during

>resistance training to modulate associated cortisol changes, but I don't

>recall if they included females in the study group. I know from my own

>experience that it reduces fatigue, but since I still haven't developed a

>way to analyze my hormone levels during and around training, even though I

>am a willing guinea pig, I can't offer any credible data. Even then, n=1,

>and I may not be a good candidate since my hormones (insulin, androgens,

>etc) are not considered 'normal' (PCOS-associated insulin resistance and

>high androgen levels).

>

>Considering that corisol is a keen topic of interest for trainees, I may be

>able to glean some prelinimary info from a researcher who measured cortisol

>levels adjunct with glucose, etc. in heavy eccentric training. But realize

>that the protocol was one that is not typically used by the average

>gym-trainee, and I know that no females were included in the subject

>population.

>

>

><What I find most intriguing is the intersection between body and

behaviour:

>female athletes can often get into particular patterns, either thru their

>choice or their coach's, and the resulting hormonal status of some

>combination of overtraining and caloric restriction is quite interesting.

>Maybe it's just that I'd like to have some ammo to fire at my sister's

>cheerleading coach who has them training on a grueling schedule as well as

>watching their weight stringently (trying to keep them all in double-digit

>weight).>

>

>This is unfortunately typical in similar sports, especially gymnastics,

>which is why many of the female athlete triad (and anorexia) studies were

>done with female gymnists. There is an interesting book examining this very

>issue, albeit without the emphasis on physiology, but I can't recall the

>name at this time. And you are well acquainted with the

>cultural/sociological factor in these sports: the perception of girls/women

>and body image. You won't find many overweight girls as cheerleaders. It's

>not 'acceptable.'

>

>

>>I also like a lot of the emerging stuff on women and menstrual cycle. I've

>>been pestering all the women I know for more information about how they

>>feel subjectively over their cycles, in terms of things like strength,

>>energy, appetite, pain of injury, etc.

>>

>>And I would walk over my mother's future grave for some decent research on

>>women and strength training. I think we have all had quite enough of

>>studies on endurance athletes! We still know so little about quite

>>basic topics: strength training young women, pregnant women, older women,

>>etc.

>>The world does not need another VO2 max study or studies showing one set

to

>>failure works on people who have never touched a weight; it is high time

>>for studies of strength training on experienced female lifters across

>>demographic categories.>

>

>I agree. But the reality is that strength training is more difficult

>(complex) to study than endurance. VO2max is easier to measure. Strength

>training is influenced by so many variables and it is very difficult to

>control for all of those variables. The other factor is there is more money

>in endurance sports than in strength sports. That also influences the

>research focus (funding sources).

>

>Resistance training research is increasing, but primarily focusing on other

>populations than elite athletes. It emphsizes the aging, diabetic, and

>muscle pathology populations. These interests drive the funding and the

>research focus. That's academic reality. There is, however, more pressure

on

>including women and analyzing data appropriately in these studies. Which is

>why my research focus is glucose transport, muscle biology and women. I hit

>them all

>

>

>> > The topics I'm currently investigating probably have little interest

for

>>others than myself (e.g. Did you know that women, both young and old, have

>>similar muscle satellite cell populations as men? But our satellite cells

>>and the nuclear area are larger, with a lower nuclear area/cell area

ratio.

>>How does this influence the muscle regeneration capacity of both young and

>>older women?)>

>

>>Given the aging population and the growing influx of older women into

>>gyms,as well as older women who used to be young athletes, I should think

>>this type of research would be quite lucrative and interesting for the

rest

>>of us.>

>

>

>The emphasis on research in sarcopenia is increasing. Which is driving

basic

>research into muscle development, growth and regeneration. The NIH-funded

>research projects are booming in the last few years due to the increasing

>aging population, interests in disease-associated muscle loss and

>weightlessness (the latter mostly NASA funded). I'm sure that some of this

>basic research may also benefit athletes and the average gym trainee as

>well. Interestingly, bodybuilders are frequently a population studied

>because of muscle hypertrophy association. Talk about top-down research

>

>>Message: 24

>> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:10:17 -0600

>> From: " Schaefer " <thephantom198@...>

>

>>I would like to echo Krista's requests, and add a couple more.

>>

>>I have read a number of drug testing incidents involving women who are

>perimenopausal or menopausal, with regard to steroid testing in the drug

>>tested sports, under IOC in particular. I wonder if there isn't something

>>being missed in the population of women - since the tests check

>>testosterone levels and changes in hormones are part of menopause?

>>fluctuations? perhaps that might merit investigation.>

>

>I'm sure there are instances where some women's natural hormonal milieu

>challenge the standards associated with the athletic associations. I am

>probably one of those, as my androgen levels are normally high for a female

>due to Polycystic Ovary Syndrome. I know of another female athlete whose

>baseline androgen levels are relatively high because of an enzyme

>dysfunction.

>

>If Mauro di Pasqule is on this list (is he?), he could offer more insight

>into the testing standards and politics. We have discussed it a few times

>and he has some interesting comments.

>

>

>>I would also heartily LOVE to read more on women overall in strength

>>training, the aging process, and believe it or not, pregnancy and the

>competing lifter. Yes, pregnancy and powerlifting, or Olympic lifting,

>specifically those on platform, not just training for their own amusement.

>There appears to be a great amount of data on women performing elite

aerobic

>athletics while pregnant, but a silence regarding heavy training while

>expecting a bundle of joy. I suspect that conventional medicine would say

> " don't " .>

>

>While I would argue with your use of the term " amusement " in reference to

>the training woman, I hope that your use was not derogatory. There are many

>women who take their training very seriously but choose not to compete or,

>for one reason or another, are restricted from competing.

>

>I know several women who have weight trained during pregnancy, up until the

>last week of their gestation. I have trained four pregnant women, two who

>had gestational diabetes. I worked closely with their physicians who

>monitored their continuing prenancy status and only one had to discontinue

>due to possible fetal complications, unassociated with training. I recall

>hearing that one of the US top female OL'ers competed while pregnant, but

>there is NO data on pregnant elite weight training athletes during

>competition.

>

>

>>With regard to your question about post exercise depression, I would say

>>there is no incidence here (n also = 1) personally, with one

>>exception/instance due to this reason. If I miss my nutritional window -

>>If I fail to eat with the first 2 hours post workout, I feel my spirits

>>plummet, along with my energy level, most significantly. Therefore I am

>>sure to eat SOMETHING in a timely fashion.I also have had one other person

>>relate a very frightening episode, where she threatened herself with

>>physical harm, due to not eating properly post workout (her mood, and her

>>problem, disappeared with intake of a protein shake). So I'm not sure how

>>you view that - it's linked to not eating, quickly and sufficiently, post

>>workout in the only instances I'm aware of, anecdotally and my own sole

>>instance. >

>

>That sounds typically like hypoglycemia. Which can manifest or be perceived

>as depression. This issue was raised during one of our discussions on the

>topic. Considering that during part of the menstrual cycle, women are more

>predisposed to hypoglycemia and it is exacerbated by exercise(and I have

>seen a few women faint in the gym because of this), this may be the cause

of

>the episodes you related.

>

>Elzi Volk

>Austin, TX

>

>_________________________________________________________________

>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

>

>

>

>Modify or cancel your subscription here:

>

>mygroups

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> " Krista--Dixon " <kristasd@...> wrote:

><What I find most intriguing is the intersection between body and behaviour:

>female athletes can often get into particular patterns, either thru their

>choice or their coach's, and the resulting hormonal status of some

>combination of overtraining and caloric restriction is quite interesting.

>Maybe it's just that I'd like to have some ammo to fire at my sister's

>cheerleading coach who has them training on a grueling schedule as well as

>watching their weight stringently (trying to keep them all in double-digit

>weight).>

On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Elzinator Unreal wrote:

>This is unfortunately typical in similar sports, especially gymnastics,

>which is why many of the female athlete triad (and anorexia) studies were

>done with female gymnists. There is an interesting book examining this very

>issue, albeit without the emphasis on physiology, but I can't recall the

>name at this time. And you are well acquainted with the

>cultural/sociological factor in these sports: the perception of girls/women

>and body image. You won't find many overweight girls as cheerleaders. It's

>not 'acceptable.'

Joan 's " Little Girls in Pretty Boxes: The Making and Breaking of Elite

Gymnasts and Figure Skaters " comes to mind. It's on my List but I haven't

gotten that far yet.

To date I've only read some of the reviews-as-publicity-blurb ABOUT this

book. The one that continually sticks in my mind is a segment of a review

posted on the amazon.com site, which I'm including:

... The sport not only attracts tiny girls, it manufactures them:

these days the demanding physical requirements of championship

women's gymnastics can only be met by prepubescent, very light, very

flexible girls. Control their weight through intimidation, delay

the onset of puberty via exhaustion and starvation, and voila{ }!

You've got little girls forever. But by delaying puberty, one also

inhibits the production of estrogen, which is essential for adult

bone density. There are now former gymnasts in their twenties with

the bone density of 90-year-olds. ...

D.

--

Winters As iron sharpens iron, so a man

at or about 40°27'00 " N 80°00'00 " W sharpens the coutenance of his

aka Pittsburgh, PA, USA friend.

Prov. 27:17 (NKJV)

[Guest guest]

I love this thread and would like to comment on a few other women's posts:

Elzi recently asked:

<< However, I have had anecdotal testimony from some women that they

experience

post-exercise depression. While discussing this with a professor in

pharmacology at UTA (who collaborates with psychologists in depression

medication research), his interest was peaked and mentioned possibly

studying this phenomenon. But we need to provide more testimony. Any women

here experience post-exercise depression? >>

The only case I can include for " post-exercise depression " seems to have

more to do with " post-goal accomplishment sag " than anything -- i.e. getting

so up for a climb that I've looked forward to for weeks, or a meet that I've

trained for several months -- in such cases, in the few days following the

elation of reaching my goal, I feel a momentary " what's next? " sensation,

but I don't think that's quite what you're looking for. Exercise always

makes me feel better; accomplishing one long-term physical goal without

having the next firmly established leaves me feeling anxious and wondering

where to head next...

commented:

<<I would also heartily LOVE to read more on women overall in strength

training, the aging process, and believe it or not, pregnancy and the

competing lifter. Yes, pregnancy and powerlifting, or Olympic lifting,

specifically those on platform, not just training for their own amusement.

There appears to be a great amount of data on women performing elite aerobic

athletics while pregnant, but a silence regarding heavy training while

expecting a bundle of joy. I suspect that conventional medicine would say

" don't. " .>>

Ditto that -- or here's another area: women climbers/mountaineers (or others

who train at / go to high altitude) and pregnancy -- and whether the age-old

recommendation of keeping exercising heart rate under 145 is really valid.

Just walking around at elevations higher than 12,500' can get the pulse up

above 150 -- would that really harm a baby in the womb? I just can't see

giving up my favorite activities (lifting, climbing, step / dance workouts

etc.) for 9 months, yet I would never want to inflict any damage,

unknowingly, on a fetus -- and believe it or not, NOT knowing has me in a

tad bit of a holding pattern, hoping I can find research answering some of

these questions!! Insights from Rosemary, Krista, Elzi or are always

useful -- keep 'em coming!

Courtenay Schurman

Seattle, WA