Guest guest Posted March 2, 2010 Report Share Posted March 2, 2010 Giovanni,  The ARP is obviously a form of EMS (it is Galvanic), however the square wave model, especially the one you referenced will only contract the muscles, and there in lies the problem. Her muscles are already in a tight contracted state. She needs to be able to get them into a more relaxed state. This can best be done via movement of the body (in which she is currently limited right now) which the kind of EMS that you are telling her to use does not allow. The ARP creates high velocity contractions of the muscles, but also allows you to move while hooked up (continous current). This will allow those tight muscles of hers to relax and thus help to fix the problem. In addition to that the ARP can help to identify exactly which muscles are causing the problems as opposed to someone guessing and just slapping the machine on 'where they think the problem is'.  As for research on the ARP there is stuff that has been completed (at the University of Hawaii, and with great results), but has yet to be published. However, I have been treated for injuries with both kinds of the devices. What I have found is that the square-wave EMS models do very little in comparison to the ARP.  You should try the ARP yourself and then you will know what I am saying. Not sure if you have any motivation for those devices to be sold, but if she would do what I said I get nothing out of it. However, I know it would be the most benefiicial thing that she could ever do. I have seen it with numerous people and even experienced it for myself. Along with the machine she will have direct assistance when it comes to all use. And they will even let her try it for free.   Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS Minneapolis, MN   > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All: > > > It's been a very long time since I've posted. Last year I was diagnosed > > > with degenerative joint disease--specifical ly in my spine from L3 to > S1. > > > > > Since that time I've started having more severe problems with my neck, > > and > > > recently was diagnosed with scoliosis as a result of the breakdown of > > > vertabrae. I'm trying to figure out if I can help relieve the pain with > > some > > > sort of exercise to build, or stretch, muscles in my back. > > > I thought maybe someone here could direct me to a book, or some online > > > source, since I live in the toolies and am not close enough to any > towns > > > with specialists, or gyms, or any other form of help. > > > Thanks in advance for any advice. > > > Vicki Lockwood > > > NW Missouri > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2010 Report Share Posted March 3, 2010 Chad, You are confusing the terminology. I can suggest an EMS Digest I put together to clarify some concepts: http://bit.ly/9jfW3W Galvanic means that the current flows only in one direction, which I think the ARP does. EMS means that you stimulate muscles (i.e. cause twitches or contractions), which can be obtained either with a current flowing in only one direction (Galvanic), or a current flowing in an alternated manner (first in one direction then in the opposite direction). The latter is the case for a biphasic current such as the square wave employed by professional devices for sport training. Although you are an educated professional, you are excused in confusing these concepts, as in the USA unfortunately there isn't enough education in electrical muscle stimulation, at least compared to what my experience has been in Europe. I'm not saying that the machine you advocate is not giving any result. However, you started this discussion by stating that EMS is the way to go. So if one advocates EMS (as you did), it has to be said that EMS is best obtained with square wave machines. The physics of electricity explains why motor-neurons are triggered faster and more easily with a square wave. If one instead advocates wound-healing properties, then there is a promising body of research showing that High-Volt Pulsed Currents (HVPC waveform) flowing in one direction help speeding up healing by accelerating the repair of the wound (either exposed or internal to a body part). To this regard the machine you are advocating is in good company, as there are several other reputable companies with HVPC waveforms. If instead you said that EMS is the way to go, because you are not clear about the meaning of EMS there is nothing I can say. However, you further state that the machine you advocate " high velocity contractions of the muscles, but also allows you to move while hooked up (continous current) " . So it seems that you are pretty convinced about muscle contractions, and are oblivious of the healing properties of HVPC. Again square wave is the best way to cause fast muscle contractions. And because one can use programs that are best suited to recruit slow-twitch or programs that are best for fast-twitch fibers, one can decide pretty much the type of training intended. But what you are describing is perhaps a series of twitches, because you write that the individual is free to move. Well, if the muscles are contracted and you can still move, then the contraction is weak, i.e. ineffective. If instead contraction you mean twitches, it's a different story. Twitches let you move to some extent and yet they cause an energetic massage that helps pump blood to the stimulated muscle. A program that is part of both Globus and Compex machines, called Active Recovery, does this nicely, and is actually more effective than intense massage. Regarding the study you're saying has not been published yet, your machine has been out for about 20 years, so you would expect that a study would have been published by now. Contrast this with the bibliography I mentioned in a previous post: 23 titles just for applications of EMS in Sport Training http://bit.ly/btLcvC. And many of the titles are very recent research of the past decade. All of them explain that the protocol used is biphasic-symmetrical-rectangular waveforms (aka square wave). I'd say this is substantial research. My motivation is in educating consumers to EMS, which is lacking here in the US: I'm the importer of the Globus brand. I see from you LinkedIn profile that you are involved in opening up a ARPWave clinic which uses the machine you are advocating. Again there are nice wound-healing properties in your machine, which I'm not disputing. However, when it comes muscle contraction, EMS square wave is the way to go. Giovanni Ciriani - www.GlobusSHT.com - West Hartford, CT - USA Exclusive distributor - Globus Italia srl and Domino srl - www.GlobusCorporation.com - Italy On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:11 PM, Chad Scheitel <chadscheitel@...>wrote: > > > Giovanni, > > The ARP is obviously a form of EMS (it is Galvanic), however the square > wave model, especially the one you referenced will only contract the > muscles, and there in lies the problem. > Her muscles are already in a tight contracted state. She needs to be able > to get them into a more relaxed state. This can best be done via movement > of the body (in which she is currently limited right now) which the kind of > EMS that you are telling her to use does not allow. The ARP creates high > velocity contractions of the muscles, but also allows you to move while > hooked up (continous current). This will allow those tight muscles of hers > to relax and thus help to fix the problem. In addition to that the ARP can > help to identify exactly which muscles are causing the problems as opposed > to someone guessing and just slapping the machine on 'where they think the > problem is'. > > As for research on the ARP there is stuff that has been completed (at the > University of Hawaii, and with great results), but has yet to be published. > However, I have been treated for injuries with both kinds of the devices. > What I have found is that the square-wave EMS models do very little in > comparison to the ARP. > > You should try the ARP yourself and then you will know what I am saying. > > Not sure if you have any motivation for those devices to be sold, but if > she would do what I said I get nothing out of it. However, I know it would > be the most benefiicial thing that she could ever do. I have seen it with > numerous people and even experienced it for myself. Along with the machine > she will have direct assistance when it comes to all use. And they will > even let her try it for free. > > Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS > Minneapolis, MN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All: > > > > It's been a very long time since I've posted. Last year I was > diagnosed > > > > with degenerative joint disease--specifical ly in my spine from L3 to > > S1. > > > > > > > Since that time I've started having more severe problems with my > neck, > > > and > > > > recently was diagnosed with scoliosis as a result of the breakdown of > > > > vertabrae. I'm trying to figure out if I can help relieve the pain > with > > > some > > > > sort of exercise to build, or stretch, muscles in my back. > > > > I thought maybe someone here could direct me to a book, or some > online > > > > source, since I live in the toolies and am not close enough to any > > towns > > > > with specialists, or gyms, or any other form of help. > > > > Thanks in advance for any advice. > > > > Vicki Lockwood > > > > NW Missouri > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 Giovanni,  Just to clarify a little. I understand the difference between DC and AC (I understand that by saying that a device is Galvanic I am mainly just stating that it is direct current). I also understand what EMS is ( " EMS means that you stimulate muscles (i.e. cause twitches or contractions) " ). The ARP is EMS, I know this and you know this, so why are we discussing this? However, I disagree with you on the fact that this woman should use a square-wave device for her problem. You stated this:  " So if one advocates EMS (as you did), it has to be said that EMS is best obtained with square wave machines. "  With that statement I disagree. What do you mean by EMS is best obtained??? The EMS that is best, is the EMS that gives you the best results, period. That doesn't mean it just gives you the hardest contraction. Heck, using a stun gun on someone gives a really hard contraction, but that doesn't mean that it is what is best when it comes to training the neuromuscular system to do what you want it to do. The best EMS to use is the one that can give you the greatest results (improvement in movement patterns, more regular bowel movements/digestion, better internal temperature regulation, etc...) in addition to those results being more predictable. This is our only disagreement here, and the reason why I would suggest that Vicki use the ARP instead of a square-wave producing EMS model.  I understand and agree with you when it comes to the lack of research that has been done on the ARP. Hopefully that will change in the near future.     As for my involvement with ARPwave, as you stated, I am currently looking to possibly open up an ARPwave clinic for myself. However, I don't get paid any money if someone goes and uses the current ARPwave services like I suggested to Vicki. I am interested in opening up a clinic myself because of all the benefits that I know can be obtained using the ARP and the ARPwave/EvoSport systems.  I am actually quite (self) educated when it comes to EMS, and agree that here in the US people aren't educated enough on the subject. But there are things called libraries and something called the Internet that now gives people knowledge from all across the world that they can use to educate themselves on EMS and its known effects on biological organisms regardless of where they live.  However, Vicki needs something and somebody that is going to help her to get rid of her problems, not just a machine that is known to cause significant muscle contractions. That is why I suggest she uses the services and the ARP that ARPwave can supply her with.  I can understand you being in disagreement with me considering your current line of work, your lack of use of an ARP, and the lack of research that has been done on the ARP. But from my experience the ARP has shown time and time again that it is the best tool to use, far above and beyond square-wave EMS devices, when it comes to fixing musculoskeletal issues like scoliosis.  Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS Minneapolis, MN From: Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@...> Subject: Re: scoliosis Supertraining Date: Wednesday, March 3, 2010, 6:56 PM  Chad, You are confusing the terminology. I can suggest an EMS Digest I put together to clarify some concepts: http://bit.ly/ 9jfW3W Galvanic means that the current flows only in one direction, which I think the ARP does. EMS means that you stimulate muscles (i.e. cause twitches or contractions) , which can be obtained either with a current flowing in only one direction (Galvanic), or a current flowing in an alternated manner (first in one direction then in the opposite direction). The latter is the case for a biphasic current such as the square wave employed by professional devices for sport training. Although you are an educated professional, you are excused in confusing these concepts, as in the USA unfortunately there isn't enough education in electrical muscle stimulation, at least compared to what my experience has been in Europe. I'm not saying that the machine you advocate is not giving any result. However, you started this discussion by stating that EMS is the way to go. So if one advocates EMS (as you did), it has to be said that EMS is best obtained with square wave machines. The physics of electricity explains why motor-neurons are triggered faster and more easily with a square wave. If one instead advocates wound-healing properties, then there is a promising body of research showing that High-Volt Pulsed Currents (HVPC waveform) flowing in one direction help speeding up healing by accelerating the repair of the wound (either exposed or internal to a body part). To this regard the machine you are advocating is in good company, as there are several other reputable companies with HVPC waveforms. If instead you said that EMS is the way to go, because you are not clear about the meaning of EMS there is nothing I can say. However, you further state that the machine you advocate " high velocity contractions of the muscles, but also allows you to move while hooked up (continous current) " . So it seems that you are pretty convinced about muscle contractions, and are oblivious of the healing properties of HVPC. Again square wave is the best way to cause fast muscle contractions. And because one can use programs that are best suited to recruit slow-twitch or programs that are best for fast-twitch fibers, one can decide pretty much the type of training intended. But what you are describing is perhaps a series of twitches, because you write that the individual is free to move. Well, if the muscles are contracted and you can still move, then the contraction is weak, i.e. ineffective. If instead contraction you mean twitches, it's a different story. Twitches let you move to some extent and yet they cause an energetic massage that helps pump blood to the stimulated muscle. A program that is part of both Globus and Compex machines, called Active Recovery, does this nicely, and is actually more effective than intense massage. Regarding the study you're saying has not been published yet, your machine has been out for about 20 years, so you would expect that a study would have been published by now. Contrast this with the bibliography I mentioned in a previous post: 23 titles just for applications of EMS in Sport Training http://bit.ly/ btLcvC. And many of the titles are very recent research of the past decade. All of them explain that the protocol used is biphasic-symmetrica l-rectangular waveforms (aka square wave). I'd say this is substantial research. My motivation is in educating consumers to EMS, which is lacking here in the US: I'm the importer of the Globus brand. I see from you LinkedIn profile that you are involved in opening up a ARPWave clinic which uses the machine you are advocating. Again there are nice wound-healing properties in your machine, which I'm not disputing. However, when it comes muscle contraction, EMS square wave is the way to go. ===================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Judy Give me a call there is a better way then a brace      Spinal quest Health Technologies A Center for non-surgical treatment of Scoliosis Carl  Bonofiglio, D.C. 503-608-7484 Cell 503-312-5744 www.spinalquest.net -- scoliosis Dear ListserveI have a young patient 6y/o with a 26 degree thoracic scoliosis. I think I remember someone mentioning a dynamic bracing method. Who does that in Portland?Judy Boothby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 The scoliosis bracing scene is a big racket. There is a brace fitter from San Diego that bullies doctors to x-ray adult patients, fits them with very expensive braces that don't work, and refits them every few years. He has patients flying al over the place, telling them they'll die without his brace. Sounds like what some of us say to our patients. The braces may help in a child. I don't know. I'd be more inclined to do a combination of exercises, massage, manipulation and brace if none of that helps. Ann GoldeenOn Thu, May 26, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Boothby Judith wrote: Dear Listserve I have a young patient 6y/o with a 26 degree thoracic scoliosis. I think I remember someone mentioning a dynamic bracing method. Who does that in Portland? Judy Boothby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 I have a 13 year old female with a scoliosis. Cobb angle: 35deg apex to the right in the lumbar spine and then 37deg apex to left in the thoracic spine. Leg length isdead even and no other pathology seen on plain films. Stage 4 Risser’s sign. Mom noted that through many sports physicals and pediatric visits and school scoliosis check nobody noticed it. Mom herself said she never noticed it until 3 weeks ago. I realize all these people are not expert observers but I am still concerned about the reported rapid onset.The girl is very active in sports but has been complaining of back pain since an MVA 18 months ago. The girl refused to be seen by anyone for the MVA related symptoms. They live in the Beaverton area; I would love to get a referral to a scoliosis specialist in the area for them. Thank you ahead of time. Glenn Sykes, DC Gresham Town Fair Chiropractic ClinicPhone: (503) 667-6744Fax: (503) 661-7896WWW.GRESHAMCHIROPRACTOR.NET __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6683 (20111204) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Dave Panzer is a specialist in Scoliosis and is in Aloha. Schneider DCPDXOn Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Dr. Glenn Sykes <drsykes@...> wrote: I have a 13 year old female with a scoliosis. Cobb angle: 35deg apex to the right in the lumbar spine and then 37deg apex to left in the thoracic spine. Leg length is dead even and no other pathology seen on plain films. Stage 4 Risser’s sign. Mom noted that through many sports physicals and pediatric visits and school scoliosis check nobody noticed it. Mom herself said she never noticed it until 3 weeks ago. I realize all these people are not expert observers but I am still concerned about the reported rapid onset. The girl is very active in sports but has been complaining of back pain since an MVA 18 months ago. The girl refused to be seen by anyone for the MVA related symptoms. They live in the Beaverton area; I would love to get a referral to a scoliosis specialist in the area for them. Thank you ahead of time. Glenn Sykes, DC Gresham Town Fair Chiropractic Clinic Phone: (503) 667-6744 Fax: (503) 661-7896 WWW.GRESHAMCHIROPRACTOR.NET __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6683 (20111204) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Schneider DC PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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