Re: Re: OBCE scope of practice.

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr. ,

After reading Dr. Hacketts'paper on prolotherapy I decided to see if I could irritate a ligament sufficiently to initiate a positive change in its function without an injection, So I had Ed manufacture an adapter with a firm tip that I could use with my arthrostim, to date the results have been very encouraging. I have been using it for several months but only on pelvic ligts.

Herb Freeman D.C.

Re: OBCE scope of practice.

I became a Naturopath simply so I could do Prolotherapy and Injection Therapy.

It's not simply a matter of injecting a structure, there is a decent deal of knowledge beyond just the structures. I run labs to assess health status, there is pharmacology that comes into play, quite a bit of risk in some situation and malpractice DOES NOT cover it. (there are some very expensive policies that do).

Add to that the training I took in addition to going to ND school, I took hundreds of hours of seminars to be certified, and that was not cheap. It's in the several thousands of dollars. Beyond the seminars, you really need to shadow a qualified doc to actually know what you're doing, the seminars are mainly on cadavers. There are few docs who do it, and even fewer who are willing to take a shadowing doc/student on. So being properly trained is a real issue.

I was fortunate enough to work with Rick Marinelli over the past decade so I've been trained well, but most docs take a few weekend seminars and then are not sure what to do with the knowledge. It's forboding to stick a 4" , 22 gauge needle into someone's hip the first 10 times!

That's just my two cents:) For what it's worth:)

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

Dr. ,

I can appreciate your time and effort to acquire the skills and knowledge for

injections. Please do not take this the wrong way, I am truly curious. Do you

not believe DC's, as currently trained, can acquire the knowledge and skills in

a competent, structured post-graduate in depth program that includes clinical

rounds?

Second question. I am not familiar with " Biopuncture " . This is getting a lot

of media press lately. I have been told it uses a much smaller guage needle and

injects homeopathic substances into trigger points. It is my understanding it

uses products like Traumeel, Zeel, Spascupreel, arnica, echinaccea, chamomile

and is not combined with any local anesthetic like lidocaine. I was told most

injections with " biopuncture " procedure cause only minor discomfort because they

are very shallow, given just under the skin or into the muscle. There are MD's

in California that utilize it and I have been told it is not prolotherapy. In

Colorado, this procedure is with in the scope of licensed acupuncturists. Do

you have experience/opinion with this procedure?

Thank-you for contributing your knowledge to all. Your " two cents " are worth

alot.

Bill Hartje, DC, MS

Re: OBCE scope of practice.

I became a Naturopath simply so I could do Prolotherapy and Injection

Therapy.

It's not simply a matter of injecting a structure, there is a decent

deal of knowledge beyond just the structures. I run labs to assess

health status, there is pharmacology that comes into play, quite a bit

of risk in some situation and malpractice DOES NOT cover it. (there

are some very expensive policies that do).

Add to that the training I took in addition to going to ND school, I

took hundreds of hours of seminars to be certified, and that was not

cheap. It's in the several thousands of dollars. Beyond the

seminars, you really need to shadow a qualified doc to actually know

what you're doing, the seminars are mainly on cadavers. There are few

docs who do it, and even fewer who are willing to take a shadowing doc/

student on. So being properly trained is a real issue.

I was fortunate enough to work with Rick Marinelli over the past

decade so I've been trained well, but most docs take a few weekend

seminars and then are not sure what to do with the knowledge. It's

forboding to stick a 4 " , 22 gauge needle into someone's hip the first

10 times!

That's just my two cents:) For what it's worth:)

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

Tyna and all,

It is good to have someone around who can do this for thos patients that require it ...... it is exciting to be able to do a procedure that can make changes of that nature. As one of those who has injected butts and arms and legs and shoulders and abdomens thousands of times, it can be wonderful to be able to deliver ease and calm to a person.

But, now that I am a chiropractor and know how easy it is to deliver that peace and calm without injections, it seems a default mechanism too easy to reach for when the first adjustment doesnt deliver what the patient wants. You see, what I saw during those thousands of injections is that only a percentage deliver the peace and calm ..... the rest deliver problems the patient doens't way and didn't plan on ..... I got really tired of seeing people reach for resolution of one problem only to leave the arena with their presenting problem unresolved AND three more problems to boot.

Yes it can help ... but the McMurray move after blocking a pelvic can do more for a knee than any prolotherapy ever designed! Learning to use one's hands is also scary .... but FAR more productive and resolving. Creating scar tissue is never really a long-term resulotion

my 2 cents this am.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

From: tyna.moore@...Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 17:38:53 -0700Subject: Re: OBCE scope of practice.

I became a Naturopath simply so I could do Prolotherapy and Injection Therapy.

It's not simply a matter of injecting a structure, there is a decent deal of knowledge beyond just the structures. I run labs to assess health status, there is pharmacology that comes into play, quite a bit of risk in some situation and malpractice DOES NOT cover it. (there are some very expensive policies that do).

Add to that the training I took in addition to going to ND school, I took hundreds of hours of seminars to be certified, and that was not cheap. It's in the several thousands of dollars. Beyond the seminars, you really need to shadow a qualified doc to actually know what you're doing, the seminars are mainly on cadavers. There are few docs who do it, and even fewer who are willing to take a shadowing doc/student on. So being properly trained is a real issue.

I was fortunate enough to work with Rick Marinelli over the past decade so I've been trained well, but most docs take a few weekend seminars and then are not sure what to do with the knowledge. It's forboding to stick a 4" , 22 gauge needle into someone's hip the first 10 times!

That's just my two cents:) For what it's worth:)

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

Hi Sunny I am in complete agreement with you. One of the steps to Health is not too inject anything into the body, except human insulin for those without an operating pancreas. Dr. Freeman and Ed from IMPAC are geniuses. They are figuring out ways to effect the body using mechanical means, that substitute for pharmacology and surgical interventions. (I would put injections in the category of minor, minor surgery, using a sharp object to break the skin). My two cents added with Sunny's makes 4 cents this am.Alan D.C.tyna.moore@...; From: skrndc1@...Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 08:04:58 -0700Subject: RE: Re: OBCE scope of practice.

Tyna and all,

It is good to have someone around who can do this for thos patients that require it ...... it is exciting to be able to do a procedure that can make changes of that nature. As one of those who has injected butts and arms and legs and shoulders and abdomens thousands of times, it can be wonderful to be able to deliver ease and calm to a person.

But, now that I am a chiropractor and know how easy it is to deliver that peace and calm without injections, it seems a default mechanism too easy to reach for when the first adjustment doesnt deliver what the patient wants. You see, what I saw during those thousands of injections is that only a percentage deliver the peace and calm ..... the rest deliver problems the patient doens't way and didn't plan on ..... I got really tired of seeing people reach for resolution of one problem only to leave the arena with their presenting problem unresolved AND three more problems to boot.

Yes it can help ... but the McMurray move after blocking a pelvic can do more for a knee than any prolotherapy ever designed! Learning to use one's hands is also scary .... but FAR more productive and resolving. Creating scar tissue is never really a long-term resulotion

my 2 cents this am.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

From: tyna.moore@...Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 17:38:53 -0700Subject: Re: OBCE scope of practice.

I became a Naturopath simply so I could do Prolotherapy and Injection Therapy.

It's not simply a matter of injecting a structure, there is a decent deal of knowledge beyond just the structures. I run labs to assess health status, there is pharmacology that comes into play, quite a bit of risk in some situation and malpractice DOES NOT cover it. (there are some very expensive policies that do).

Add to that the training I took in addition to going to ND school, I took hundreds of hours of seminars to be certified, and that was not cheap. It's in the several thousands of dollars. Beyond the seminars, you really need to shadow a qualified doc to actually know what you're doing, the seminars are mainly on cadavers. There are few docs who do it, and even fewer who are willing to take a shadowing doc/student on. So being properly trained is a real issue.

I was fortunate enough to work with Rick Marinelli over the past decade so I've been trained well, but most docs take a few weekend seminars and then are not sure what to do with the knowledge. It's forboding to stick a 4" , 22 gauge needle into someone's hip the first 10 times!

That's just my two cents:) For what it's worth:)

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

It's not scar tissue. They've shown that it's regenerative. Healthy, normal, strong tissue is generated. Not scar tissue, not random collagen, but chondrocytes and fibroblasts are kicked into gear, producing remarkable results in many.If a ligament/tendon is torn, it needs blood supply. We can do this manually, sometimes causing a good deal of pain. Injections can generate the same blood flow, the local anesthetic numbs the area so it's quite painless, the needle itself counts (microtrauma leading to increased blood flow) and so on."Sclerotherapy" is an ancient term that has long since been dismissed. Regenerative Injection Therapy is the going term and that's what we understand is happening. Unfortunately I was taught at WSCC that's it's scar tissue, sclerotherapy, etc. We now know that is not correct. Tyna , ND, DCLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246www.corewellnesspdx.comwww.lakeoswegochiro.comwww.renegadewellness.org On Apr 16, 2011, at 8:04 AM, Sunny Kierstyn wrote:Tyna and all, It is good to have someone around who can do this for thos patients that require it ...... it is exciting to be able to do a procedure that can make changes of that nature. As one of those who has injected butts and arms and legs and shoulders and abdomens thousands of times, it can be wonderful to be able to deliver ease and calm to a person. But, now that I am a chiropractor and know how easy it is to deliver that peace and calm without injections, it seems a default mechanism too easy to reach for when the first adjustment doesnt deliver what the patient wants. You see, what I saw during those thousands of injections is that only a percentage deliver the peace and calm ..... the rest deliver problems the patient doens't way and didn't plan on ..... I got really tired of seeing people reach for resolution of one problem only to leave the arena with their presenting problem unresolved AND three more problems to boot. Yes it can help ... but the McMurray move after blocking a pelvic can do more for a knee than any prolotherapy ever designed! Learning to use one's hands is also scary .... but FAR more productive and resolving. Creating scar tissue is never really a long-term resulotion my 2 cents this am. SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com From: tyna.moore@...Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 17:38:53 -0700Subject: Re: OBCE scope of practice.I became a Naturopath simply so I could do Prolotherapy and Injection Therapy. It's not simply a matter of injecting a structure, there is a decent deal of knowledge beyond just the structures. I run labs to assess health status, there is pharmacology that comes into play, quite a bit of risk in some situation and malpractice DOES NOT cover it. (there are some very expensive policies that do). Add to that the training I took in addition to going to ND school, I took hundreds of hours of seminars to be certified, and that was not cheap. It's in the several thousands of dollars. Beyond the seminars, you really need to shadow a qualified doc to actually know what you're doing, the seminars are mainly on cadavers. There are few docs who do it, and even fewer who are willing to take a shadowing doc/student on. So being properly trained is a real issue.I was fortunate enough to work with Rick Marinelli over the past decade so I've been trained well, but most docs take a few weekend seminars and then are not sure what to do with the knowledge. It's forboding to stick a 4" , 22 gauge needle into someone's hip the first 10 times! That's just my two cents:) For what it's worth:)Tyna , ND, DCLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246www.corewellnesspdx.comwww.lakeoswegochiro.comwww.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

Drs. ,Kierstyn, et.al.,

Do any of you know what type of response could be elicited by using a cold laser unit instead of an injection? I haven't seen anything published in our various journals on this subject.

Herb Freeman D.C.

From: Tyna

BERNICE FREEMAN

Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 11:23 AM

Subject: Re: Re: OBCE scope of practice.

That's cool! And really the same idea. I like injections because I can numb the patient first and the treatment is not terribly painful to have done (the few days after can be sore), but it's the same idea. Blood flow is a good idea in any chronic injury!

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org

On Apr 15, 2011, at 6:10 PM, BERNICE FREEMAN wrote:

Hi Dr. ,

After reading Dr. Hacketts'paper on prolotherapy I decided to see if I could irritate a ligament sufficiently to initiate a positive change in its function without an injection, So I had Ed manufacture an adapter with a firm tip that I could use with my arthrostim, to date the results have been very encouraging. I have been using it for several months but only on pelvic ligts.

Herb Freeman D.C.

Re: OBCE scope of practice.

I became a Naturopath simply so I could do Prolotherapy and Injection Therapy.

It's not simply a matter of injecting a structure, there is a decent deal of knowledge beyond just the structures. I run labs to assess health status, there is pharmacology that comes into play, quite a bit of risk in some situation and malpractice DOES NOT cover it. (there are some very expensive policies that do).

Add to that the training I took in addition to going to ND school, I took hundreds of hours of seminars to be certified, and that was not cheap. It's in the several thousands of dollars. Beyond the seminars, you really need to shadow a qualified doc to actually know what you're doing, the seminars are mainly on cadavers. There are few docs who do it, and even fewer who are willing to take a shadowing doc/student on. So being properly trained is a real issue.

I was fortunate enough to work with Rick Marinelli over the past decade so I've been trained well, but most docs take a few weekend seminars and then are not sure what to do with the knowledge. It's forboding to stick a 4" , 22 gauge needle into someone's hip the first 10 times!

That's just my two cents:) For what it's worth:)

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org