Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

[Guest guest]

Hi Tim,

This offers another perspective on just why our schools should begin to move away from the "twist and pop" type of clinical training offered now and into the more sophisticated realm of instrument analysis and corrrection.

I know this message will make a lot of docs on the listserve angry but these students represent how a large segment of the lay public views our profession.

Herb Freeman D.C.

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

Hi Herb, You make a good point from the standpoint of professional identity. If we think that making an argument for exclusivity of manual manipulation based on our 100 year history is going to be convincing and protective of the profession, we should rethink that position. Tuina as a form of manipulation/bonesetting taught formally in Chinese academies goes back to 700 A.D., and taught not just as a way of alleviating pain but of “preventing disease from getting a start”. There is a familiar theme to chiropractors, eh? German bonesetting tradition goes back much further than our profession as well, and it we put a little anthropological investigation into this we’ll find that humans have been manipulating the spine and other joints for a long time. All of us are aware that there is a long history to manipulation in human history, and we rightly see our profession as having taken manual manipulation to a much higher level of precision and efficacy. The only point I’m making is that if we want to argue exclusivity, it will be hard to make a convincing case to those outside our profession, or to invalidate those who claim to do manipulation as part of some therapeutic tradition they have studied; especially when that tradition is centuries longer than ours. On the other hand, there have been some truly unique contributions from innovators in our profession, people like Fuhr, Pettibon, on, your own contribution to Ed ’s development of the Arthrostim and other fine instruments from IMPAC, -Pierce-Stillwagon, that don’t look to anyone like the manual manipulative techniques that so many others lay claim to. If you add to these unique methodologies of adjusting/manipulation the brilliant insight of DD and BJ of an informational basis of health and disease as an interference and disconnection of the mind-body from it source, Universal Intelligence/Innate, then you have further evidence of something really original, innovative, and powerful that we can lay claim to. In this area of informational medicine fall a number of very effective approaches developed by many really creative chiropractors including Victor , Goodheart, Devi Nambudripad, , and, dare I say, yours truly. I strongly endorse your recommendation that our schools stop for a moment and consider what is unique and effective within our profession, stop producing obstacles to including these in our schools, put some effort into sponsoring research studies that demonstrate what so many of us know from decades of clinical experience, stop the arrogant attitude toward innovators by labeling them as “technique peddlers” and discouraging chiropractic students from considering these methods in a respectful and interested way. Our profession has a potentially great future. There is certainly no shortage of intelligence, insight, and groundbreaking creativity among us. At some point the profession as a whole and the chiropractic colleges as virtually our only institutional platforms must turn their gaze to the future and realize that this addiction to manual manipulation as the defining characteristic of our profession is a dead end. Our schools should showcase the vast repertoire of truly original chiropractic methodologies to their students, actively solicit innovators in the field to come and speak to the students, develop some mutually supportive relationship with these field doctors who have created original chiropractic methodologies that brings their seminars into the schools as elective study, and include such procedures in their clinics. I don’t recommend anyone hold their breath waiting for that to happen. S. Feinberg, D.C.NMT Seminarswww.nmt.md From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BERNICE FREEMANSent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 9:02 AMdr_tim_irving_dc; Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... Hi Tim, This offers another perspective on just why our schools should begin to move away from the " twist and pop " type of clinical training offered now and into the more sophisticated realm of instrument analysis and corrrection. I know this message will make a lot of docs on the listserve angry but these students represent how a large segment of the lay public views our profession. Herb Freeman D.C. OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing " chiropractic-like " adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

Hi Les,

What a truly magnificent message, you have said it all. I hope everyone on the listserve reads it and takes what you have written to heart.

I don't know how it could have been presented in an any more lucid manner.

Thank you for your response.

Herb

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

Well expressed, Les. Adding the brilliance of Dr. DeJarnette to those great minds that contributed to developing us would be my only suggestion. With all due respect to Herb - and no denigration to ArthroStim - seems to me we will be better served when our docs learn more than 'snap and crack'. Every time a doc (or a patient) brags about that aspect, 3 or more other people in the background cringe and vow 'never to go there'. We shoot-ourselves-in-the-foot every time. Learning to develop our hands or putting emphasis on what can be achieved manually - with the help of an instrument, when needed - would so better serve both our public and ourselves. I personaly think the public WANTS to be touched...professionally, of course. Touched in manner that gently and effectively changes their immediate pain or metabolic concern. Perhaps adds to the long term goal as well but certainly downtrends or quiets today's concern. Our hands-on ability and approach is one of our biggest assets. Teach therapeutic touch in our schools is one needed subject. That nursing background comes up so often....hadn't really realized how one learns to professionally touch until attempting to write about it recently. It seems so natural to caregivers but, after sitting on the PRC for a time or three, it obviously isn't instinctual. But it is such an important aspect of our approach to the body, to our care, to our medicine, if you will.Sunny Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com hbf4747@...; tirving@...; Oregondcs From: feinberg@...Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 09:36:54 -0700Subject: RE: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

Hi Herb, You make a good point from the standpoint of professional identity. If we think that making an argument for exclusivity of manual manipulation based on our 100 year history is going to be convincing and protective of the profession, we should rethink that position. Tuina as a form of manipulation/bonesetting taught formally in Chinese academies goes back to 700 A.D., and taught not just as a way of alleviating pain but of “preventing disease from getting a start”. There is a familiar theme to chiropractors, eh? German bonesetting tradition goes back much further than our profession as well, and it we put a little anthropological investigation into this we’ll find that humans have been manipulating the spine and other joints for a long time. All of us are aware that there is a long history to manipulation in human history, and we rightly see our profession as having taken manual manipulation to a much higher level of precision and efficacy. The only point I’m making is that if we want to argue exclusivity, it will be hard to make a convincing case to those outside our profession, or to invalidate those who claim to do manipulation as part of some therapeutic tradition they have studied; especially when that tradition is centuries longer than ours. On the other hand, there have been some truly unique contributions from innovators in our profession, people like Fuhr, Pettibon, on, your own contribution to Ed ’s development of the Arthrostim and other fine instruments from IMPAC, -Pierce-Stillwagon, that don’t look to anyone like the manual manipulative techniques that so many others lay claim to. If you add to these unique methodologies of adjusting/manipulation the brilliant insight of DD and BJ of an informational basis of health and disease as an interference and disconnection of the mind-body from it source, Universal Intelligence/Innate, then you have further evidence of something really original, innovative, and powerful that we can lay claim to. In this area of informational medicine fall a number of very effective approaches developed by many really creative chiropractors including Victor , Goodheart, Devi Nambudripad, , and, dare I say, yours truly. I strongly endorse your recommendation that our schools stop for a moment and consider what is unique and effective within our profession, stop producing obstacles to including these in our schools, put some effort into sponsoring research studies that demonstrate what so many of us know from decades of clinical experience, stop the arrogant attitude toward innovators by labeling them as “technique peddlers” and discouraging chiropractic students from considering these methods in a respectful and interested way. Our profession has a potentially great future. There is certainly no shortage of intelligence, insight, and groundbreaking creativity among us. At some point the profession as a whole and the chiropractic colleges as virtually our only institutional platforms must turn their gaze to the future and realize that this addiction to manual manipulation as the defining characteristic of our profession is a dead end. Our schools should showcase the vast repertoire of truly original chiropractic methodologies to their students, actively solicit innovators in the field to come and speak to the students, develop some mutually supportive relationship with these field doctors who have created original chiropractic methodologies that brings their seminars into the schools as elective study, and include such procedures in their clinics. I don’t recommend anyone hold their breath waiting for that to happen. S. Feinberg, D.C.NMT Seminarswww.nmt.md From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BERNICE FREEMANSent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 9:02 AMdr_tim_irving_dc; Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... Hi Tim, This offers another perspective on just why our schools should begin to move away from the "twist and pop" type of clinical training offered now and into the more sophisticated realm of instrument analysis and corrrection. I know this message will make a lot of docs on the listserve angry but these students represent how a large segment of the lay public views our profession. Herb Freeman D.C. OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

Sunny,

As you know from having seen me work that palpation is a major part of my procedure. The use of an instrument for precise spinal adjustments is always precluded by a careful manual physical exam to facilitate a proper correction.

Thanks for your input.

Herb

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

I knew that, babe .... that's why I was attempting to walk so very carefully around the subject .... manual touch is so very important to our profession ... it seems a disappearing art. just my 2 cents this beautiful oregon game day! SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com From: hbf4747@...To: Oregondcs ; skrndc1@...Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:39:37 -0700

Sunny,

As you know from having seen me work that palpation is a major part of my procedure. The use of an instrument for precise spinal adjustments is always precluded by a careful manual physical exam to facilitate a proper correction.

Thanks for your input.

Herb

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

What's the deal? No kudos for Dr Toftness. Lyle Zurflu, D.C.From: " S. Feinberg, DC" <feinberg@...>'BERNICE FREEMAN' <hbf4747@...>; 'dr_tim_irving_dc' <tirving@...>; '' <Oregondcs >Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 9:36 AMSubject: RE: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing

adjustments.....

Hi Herb, You make a good point from the standpoint of professional identity. If we think that making an argument for exclusivity of manual manipulation based on our 100 year history is going to be convincing and protective of the profession, we should rethink that position. Tuina as a form of manipulation/bonesetting taught formally in Chinese academies goes back to 700 A.D., and taught not just as a way of alleviating pain but of “preventing disease from getting a startâ€. There is a familiar theme to chiropractors, eh? German bonesetting tradition goes back much further than our

profession as well, and it we put a little anthropological investigation into this we’ll find that humans have been manipulating the spine and other joints for a long time. All of us are aware that there is a long history to manipulation in human history, and we rightly see our profession as having taken manual manipulation to a much higher level of precision and efficacy. The only point I’m making is that if we want to argue exclusivity, it will be hard to make a convincing case to those outside our profession, or to invalidate those who claim to do manipulation as part of some therapeutic tradition they have studied; especially when that tradition is centuries longer than ours. On the other hand, there have been some truly unique contributions from innovators in our profession, people like Fuhr, Pettibon, on, your own contribution to Ed ’s development of the Arthrostim and other fine instruments from IMPAC,

-Pierce-Stillwagon, that don’t look to anyone like the manual manipulative techniques that so many others lay claim to. If you add to these unique methodologies of adjusting/manipulation the brilliant insight of DD and BJ of an informational basis of health and disease as an interference and disconnection of the mind-body from it source, Universal Intelligence/Innate, then you have further evidence of something really original, innovative, and powerful that we can lay claim to. In this area of informational medicine fall a number of very effective approaches developed by many really creative chiropractors including Victor , Goodheart, Devi Nambudripad, , and, dare I say, yours truly. I strongly

endorse your recommendation that our schools stop for a moment and consider what is unique and effective within our profession, stop producing obstacles to including these in our schools, put some effort into sponsoring research studies that demonstrate what so many of us know from decades of clinical experience, stop the arrogant attitude toward innovators by labeling them as “technique peddlers†and discouraging chiropractic students from considering these methods in a respectful and interested way. Our profession has a potentially great future. There is certainly no shortage of intelligence, insight, and groundbreaking creativity among us. At some point the profession as a whole and the chiropractic colleges as virtually

our only institutional platforms must turn their gaze to the future and realize that this addiction to manual manipulation as the defining characteristic of our profession is a dead end. Our schools should showcase the vast repertoire of truly original chiropractic methodologies to their students, actively solicit innovators in the field to come and speak to the students, develop some mutually supportive relationship with these field doctors who have created original chiropractic methodologies that brings their seminars into the schools as elective study, and include such procedures in their clinics. I don’t recommend anyone hold their breath waiting for that to happen. S. Feinberg, D.C.NMT Seminarswww.nmt.md From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BERNICE FREEMANSent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 9:02 AMdr_tim_irving_dc; Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... Hi Tim, This offers another perspective on just why our schools should begin to move away from the "twist and pop" type of clinical training offered now and into the more sophisticated realm of instrument analysis and corrrection. I know this message will make a lot of docs on the listserve angry but these students represent how a large segment of the lay public views our profession. Herb Freeman

D.C. OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take

600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]



You're right forgive the oversight, he played a significant part in formulating atitudes about how much force is necessary to give an adjustment.

Herb

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

Hi Lyle and Sunny, No disrespect to any of the many brilliant minds who have contributed to the broad and deep spectrum of chiropractic methodologies that exist throughout the field doctors, but are intentionally and consistently omitted from the narrow spectrum of what our schools define as “this and no more, is chiropracticâ€.   There are so many wonderful and unique approaches to healing in the chiropractic field.  That’s why I said people like….  It would be difficult to name them all, but certainly DeJarnette and Toftness deserve mention. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: Lyle Zurflu [mailto:drzurflu@...] Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 12:57 PM S. Feinberg, DC; 'BERNICE FREEMAN'; 'dr_tim_irving_dc'; ''Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... What's the deal? No kudos for Dr Toftness. Lyle Zurflu, D.C. From: " S. Feinberg, DC " <feinberg@...>'BERNICE FREEMAN' <hbf4747@...>; 'dr_tim_irving_dc' <tirving@...>; '' <Oregondcs >Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 9:36 AMSubject: RE: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... Hi Herb, You make a good point from the standpoint of professional identity. If we think that making an argument for exclusivity of manual manipulation based on our 100 year history is going to be convincing and protective of the profession, we should rethink that position. Tuina as a form of manipulation/bonesetting taught formally in Chinese academies goes back to 700 A.D., and taught not just as a way of alleviating pain but of “preventing disease from getting a startâ€. There is a familiar theme to chiropractors, eh? German bonesetting tradition goes back much further than our profession as well, and it we put a little anthropological investigation into this we’ll find that humans have been manipulating the spine and other joints for a long time. All of us are aware that there is a long history to manipulation in human history, and we rightly see our profession as having taken manual manipulation to a much higher level of precision and efficacy. The only point I’m making is that if we want to argue exclusivity, it will be hard to make a convincing case to those outside our profession, or to invalidate those who claim to do manipulation as part of some therapeutic tradition they have studied; especially when that tradition is centuries longer than ours. On the other hand, there have been some truly unique contributions from innovators in our profession, people like Fuhr, Pettibon, on, your own contribution to Ed ’s development of the Arthrostim and other fine instruments from IMPAC, -Pierce-Stillwagon, that don’t look to anyone like the manual manipulative techniques that so many others lay claim to. If you add to these unique methodologies of adjusting/manipulation the brilliant insight of DD and BJ of an informational basis of health and disease as an interference and disconnection of the mind-body from it source, Universal Intelligence/Innate, then you have further evidence of something really original, innovative, and powerful that we can lay claim to. In this area of informational medicine fall a number of very effective approaches developed by many really creative chiropractors including Victor , Goodheart, Devi Nambudripad, , and, dare I say, yours truly. I strongly endorse your recommendation that our schools stop for a moment and consider what is unique and effective within our profession, stop producing obstacles to including these in our schools, put some effort into sponsoring research studies that demonstrate what so many of us know from decades of clinical experience, stop the arrogant attitude toward innovators by labeling them as “technique peddlers†and discouraging chiropractic students from considering these methods in a respectful and interested way. Our profession has a potentially great future. There is certainly no shortage of intelligence, insight, and groundbreaking creativity among us. At some point the profession as a whole and the chiropractic colleges as virtually our only institutional platforms must turn their gaze to the future and realize that this addiction to manual manipulation as the defining characteristic of our profession is a dead end. Our schools should showcase the vast repertoire of truly original chiropractic methodologies to their students, actively solicit innovators in the field to come and speak to the students, develop some mutually supportive relationship with these field doctors who have created original chiropractic methodologies that brings their seminars into the schools as elective study, and include such procedures in their clinics. I don’t recommend anyone hold their breath waiting for that to happen. S. Feinberg, D.C.NMT Seminarswww.nmt.md From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BERNICE FREEMANSent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 9:02 AMdr_tim_irving_dc; Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... Hi Tim, This offers another perspective on just why our schools should begin to move away from the " twist and pop " type of clinical training offered now and into the more sophisticated realm of instrument analysis and corrrection. I know this message will make a lot of docs on the listserve angry but these students represent how a large segment of the lay public views our profession. Herb Freeman D.C. OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing " chiropractic-like " adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

Well Tim, I say let them think they can "pop n pray" seemingly duplicating what we do with very limited training Les is correct we as a profession have never "owned" spinal and extremity manipulation it has be practiced for thousands of years. What we must do is be better at it and we are and I remind everyone there is a reason DCs provide 94% of all "hands-on" manipulation in this country we are the best but we can be better. While chiropractic students recieve an average of 1000 hours in spinal and extremity analysis and hands on adjusting/manipulation, and as you all know non of us were worth our salt until about our five year in practice a few thousand more hours and several hundred adjustments later, osteopaths on average have 150 hrs which is an elective, PTs have a five weekend certification program with many simply taking single weekend courses then believing they have the ability to do what we do, they don't. As a result they simply hurt people, make them uncomfortable, and do not gain the clinical outcomes we do what we as a profession need and deserve and that which the Oregon Chiropractic Association is fighting hard everyday for is a level playing field equal access to patients with equal reimbursements. In short the OCA believes our chiropractic colleagues with all they/we have to offer patients, with our healing touch, compassionate caring clinical environment, is to not just survive but all chiropractic colleagues deserve to prosper and we are not stopping until we achieve this for this wonderful profession. As per a true "sophisticated realm" I submit we must look to hands on chiropractic adjustive analysis and technique and I suggest watching Dr. Ted Carrick or Ken Stillwell, Leonard Faye, you can't fake those psychomotor adjustive procedures....I look forward to taking Ken Stillwell's hands on lab if life and my schedule doesn't get in the way....improving our adjustive skills isn't a destination it should be a continued journey wherein you never arrive you just keep improving.....

Vern Saboe, DC FACO

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

Just for the record, My original post didn't have much to do with " owning " high

velocity thrusts. It's just interesting that some of the OCOM students want to

add it to their scope and yet they are up in arms about us using a small gauge

filament needle to treat trigger points. I am not opposed to other health care

providers performing high velocity joint manipulation; I am very confidentthat

the health care consumers would choose us over them most of the time because we

are better at using that tool.

My primary point was that the people in the video really have no idea what we

know. I understand some of the people who responded to my post have differing

ideas of what we should to, the beauty of our profession is that we can have

differing opinions and we can treat differently too. I find it sad that OCOM

would even suggest that we dot have the knowledge to use any instrument we need

to help our patients' neuromyofascial system so they can maintain a homeodynamic

state of health.

-Tim Irving

>

> Well Tim, I say let them think they can " pop n pray " seemingly duplicating

what we do with very limited training Les is correct we as a profession have

never " owned " spinal and extremity manipulation it has be practiced for

thousands of years. What we must do is be better at it and we are and I remind

everyone there is a reason DCs provide 94% of all " hands-on " manipulation in

this country we are the best but we can be better. While chiropractic students

recieve an average of 1000 hours in spinal and extremity analysis and hands on

adjusting/manipulation, and as you all know non of us were worth our salt until

about our five year in practice a few thousand more hours and several hundred

adjustments later, osteopaths on average have 150 hrs which is an elective, PTs

have a five weekend certification program with many simply taking single weekend

courses then believing they have the ability to do what we do, they don't. As a

result they simply hurt people, make them uncomfortable, and do not gain the

clinical outcomes we do what we as a profession need and deserve and that which

the Oregon Chiropractic Association is fighting hard everyday for is a level

playing field equal access to patients with equal reimbursements. In short the

OCA believes our chiropractic colleagues with all they/we have to offer

patients, with our healing touch, compassionate caring clinical environment, is

to not just survive but all chiropractic colleagues deserve to prosper and we

are not stopping until we achieve this for this wonderful profession. As per a

true " sophisticated realm " I submit we must look to hands on chiropractic

adjustive analysis and technique and I suggest watching Dr. Ted Carrick or Ken

Stillwell, Leonard Faye, you can't fake those psychomotor adjustive

procedures....I look forward to taking Ken Stillwell's hands on lab if life and

my schedule doesn't get in the way....improving our adjustive skills isn't a

destination it should be a continued journey wherein you never arrive you just

keep improving.....

>

> Vern Saboe, DC FACO

>

>

> OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly

doing adjustments.....

>

>

>

> http://vimeo.com/18806859

>

> At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the

possibility of doing " chiropractic-like " adjustments under the guise of Tuina.

>

> I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on

every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would

take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them

to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?

>

> We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they

actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP

experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after

we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We

just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and

insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses

know).

>

> Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a

window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training,

regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting.

>

> -Tim Irving

>

[Guest guest]

Well written, Vern. Thanks for your focus. ....to the continued 'good fight'! ;'-)) SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com Oregondcs ; tirving@...From: vsaboe@...Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 08:13:10 -0700Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

Well Tim, I say let them think they can "pop n pray" seemingly duplicating what we do with very limited training Les is correct we as a profession have never "owned" spinal and extremity manipulation it has be practiced for thousands of years. What we must do is be better at it and we are and I remind everyone there is a reason DCs provide 94% of all "hands-on" manipulation in this country we are the best but we can be better. While chiropractic students recieve an average of 1000 hours in spinal and extremity analysis and hands on adjusting/manipulation, and as you all know non of us were worth our salt until about our five year in practice a few thousand more hours and several hundred adjustments later, osteopaths on average have 150 hrs which is an elective, PTs have a five weekend certification program with many simply taking single weekend courses then believing they have the ability to do what we do, they don't. As a result they simply hurt people, make them uncomfortable, and do not gain the clinical outcomes we do what we as a profession need and deserve and that which the Oregon Chiropractic Association is fighting hard everyday for is a level playing field equal access to patients with equal reimbursements. In short the OCA believes our chiropractic colleagues with all they/we have to offer patients, with our healing touch, compassionate caring clinical environment, is to not just survive but all chiropractic colleagues deserve to prosper and we are not stopping until we achieve this for this wonderful profession. As per a true "sophisticated realm" I submit we must look to hands on chiropractic adjustive analysis and technique and I suggest watching Dr. Ted Carrick or Ken Stillwell, Leonard Faye, you can't fake those psychomotor adjustive procedures....I look forward to taking Ken Stillwell's hands on lab if life and my schedule doesn't get in the way....improving our adjustive skills isn't a destination it should be a continued journey wherein you never arrive you just keep improving.....

Vern Saboe, DC FACO

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

I too love your focus Vern.  I was into the email several sentences without having read who the author was. I began to sense that this sounds like Vern just from the energy and power of the vision being presented. 

  Keep that vision Vern-it is contagious and clear. Schneider DCPDXOn Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Sunny Kierstyn <skrndc1@...> wrote:

 

Well written, Vern.  Thanks for your focus. ....to the continued 'good fight'!  ;'-)) SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

 Oregondcs ; tirving@...From: vsaboe@...

Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 08:13:10 -0700Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

 

Well Tim, I say let them think they can " pop n pray " seemingly duplicating what we do with very limited training Les is correct we as a profession have never " owned " spinal and extremity manipulation it has be practiced for thousands of years.  What we must do is be better at it and we are and I remind everyone there is a reason DCs provide 94% of all " hands-on "  manipulation in this country we are the best but we can be better.  While chiropractic students recieve an average of 1000 hours in spinal and extremity analysis and hands on adjusting/manipulation, and as you all know non of us were worth our salt until about our five year in practice a few thousand more hours and several hundred adjustments later, osteopaths on average have 150 hrs which is an elective, PTs have a five weekend certification program with many simply taking single weekend courses then believing they have the ability to do what we do, they don't.  As a result they simply hurt people, make them uncomfortable, and do not gain the clinical outcomes we do what we as a profession need and deserve and that which the Oregon Chiropractic Association is fighting hard everyday for is a level playing field equal access to patients with equal reimbursements.  In short the OCA believes our chiropractic colleagues with all they/we have to offer patients, with our healing touch, compassionate caring clinical environment, is to not just survive but all chiropractic colleagues deserve to prosper and we are not stopping until we achieve this for this wonderful profession.  As per a true " sophisticated realm " I submit we must look to hands on chiropractic adjustive analysis and technique and I suggest watching Dr. Ted Carrick or Ken Stillwell, Leonard Faye, you can't fake those psychomotor adjustive procedures....I look forward to taking Ken Stillwell's hands on lab if life and my schedule doesn't get in the way....improving our adjustive skills isn't a destination it should be a continued journey wherein you never arrive you just keep improving..... 

 

Vern Saboe, DC FACO

 

 

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

 

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing " chiropractic-like " adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

-- Schneider DC PDX

[Guest guest]



And...I'm surprised no kudos for psychic adjusting of a child through a mother over the phone from a vacation home in the Bahamas'? (;-)))

RR

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

Bravo, Vern!

Christian Mathisen, DC, CCWFN

3654 S Pacific Hwy

Medford, OR 97501

cmathdc@...

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

Here here!

I perform nearly 100% of adjustments manually. I’ve had a lot of experience with instrument adjusting and light force as well. I prefer to provide the service that I’ve found to be the most helpful for the specific patient. I rarely find that a patient would benefit more from the latter. The former is also hard to beat when rehabilitating spinal injury and goes together so well with that type of care. Again, when I here chiropractors talking about abandoning HVLA, I cringe. Some of their reasoning seems to be that it cannot be copied and we would have some sort of monopoly on the service. I maintain that a high quality HVLA performed by and experienced and skilled chiropractor cannot be copied via these rediculous little seminars.

As a matter of fact, you take a student just graduated from chiro school and compare their skills with a seasoned veteran in the field, the discrepancy in ability is noticeable. So, not only is it a matter of education, but experience. Chiropractors perform this in high numbers on a daily basis. Practitioners who feel they are going to help people with a wknd seminar and performing the maneuver 1x/week are misguided and perhaps a danger to the community.

We don’t have to “officially own†manipulation. The public knows who the “bone crackers†are.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Vern Saboe

Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 8:13 AM

Oregondcs ; dr_tim_irving_dc

Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

Well Tim, I say let them think they can "pop n pray" seemingly duplicating what we do with very limited training Les is correct we as a profession have never "owned" spinal and extremity manipulation it has be practiced for thousands of years. What we must do is be better at it and we are and I remind everyone there is a reason DCs provide 94% of all "hands-on" manipulation in this country we are the best but we can be better. While chiropractic students recieve an average of 1000 hours in spinal and extremity analysis and hands on adjusting/manipulation, and as you all know non of us were worth our salt until about our five year in practice a few thousand more hours and several hundred adjustments later, osteopaths on average have 150 hrs which is an elective, PTs have a five weekend certification program with many simply taking single weekend courses then believing they have the ability to do what we do, they don't. As a result they simply hurt people, make them uncomfortable, and do not gain the clinical outcomes we do what we as a profession need and deserve and that which the Oregon Chiropractic Association is fighting hard everyday for is a level playing field equal access to patients with equal reimbursements. In short the OCA believes our chiropractic colleagues with all they/we have to offer patients, with our healing touch, compassionate caring clinical environment, is to not just survive but all chiropractic colleagues deserve to prosper and we are not stopping until we achieve this for this wonderful profession. As per a true "sophisticated realm" I submit we must look to hands on chiropractic adjustive analysis and technique and I suggest watching Dr. Ted Carrick or Ken Stillwell, Leonard Faye, you can't fake those psychomotor adjustive procedures....I look forward to taking Ken Stillwell's hands on lab if life and my schedule doesn't get in the way....improving our adjustive skills isn't a destination it should be a continued journey wherein you never arrive you just keep improving.....

Vern Saboe, DC FACO

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

Still after 30 years it seems the best strategy is to master HVT and some low force methods some of which use instruments and some do not. For those biomechanically oriented who do not like instruments there is Muscle Energy Technique. Drop table work can be kind of in between.

Re monofiliment needles- they have only been around since the 1930s. It takes occidental based technology to manufacture them. Kahn DC Eugene

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...>Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>; Oregondcs ; dr_tim_irving_dc <tirving@...>Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 10:59 AMSubject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

Here here!

I perform nearly 100% of adjustments manually. I’ve had a lot of experience with instrument adjusting and light force as well. I prefer to provide the service that I’ve found to be the most helpful for the specific patient. I rarely find that a patient would benefit more from the latter. The former is also hard to beat when rehabilitating spinal injury and goes together so well with that type of care. Again, when I here chiropractors talking about abandoning HVLA, I cringe. Some of their reasoning seems to be that it cannot be copied and we would have some sort of monopoly on the service. I maintain that a high quality HVLA performed by and experienced and skilled chiropractor cannot be copied via these rediculous little seminars.

As a matter of fact, you take a student just graduated from chiro school and compare their skills with a seasoned veteran in the field, the discrepancy in ability is noticeable. So, not only is it a matter of education, but experience. Chiropractors perform this in high numbers on a daily basis. Practitioners who feel they are going to help people with a wknd seminar and performing the maneuver 1x/week are misguided and perhaps a danger to the community.

We don’t have to “officially own†manipulation. The public knows who the “bone crackers†are.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Vern Saboe

Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 8:13 AM

Oregondcs ; dr_tim_irving_dc

Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

Well Tim, I say let them think they can "pop n pray" seemingly duplicating what we do with very limited training Les is correct we as a profession have never "owned" spinal and extremity manipulation it has be practiced for thousands of years. What we must do is be better at it and we are and I remind everyone there is a reason DCs provide 94% of all "hands-on" manipulation in this country we are the best but we can be better. While chiropractic students recieve an average of 1000 hours in spinal and extremity analysis and hands on adjusting/manipulation, and as you all know non of us were worth our salt until about our five year in practice a few thousand more hours and several hundred adjustments later, osteopaths on average have 150 hrs which is an elective, PTs have a five weekend certification program with many simply taking single weekend courses then believing they have the ability to do what we do, they

don't. As a result they simply hurt people, make them uncomfortable, and do not gain the clinical outcomes we do what we as a profession need and deserve and that which the Oregon Chiropractic Association is fighting hard everyday for is a level playing field equal access to patients with equal reimbursements. In short the OCA believes our chiropractic colleagues with all they/we have to offer patients, with our healing touch, compassionate caring clinical environment, is to not just survive but all chiropractic colleagues deserve to prosper and we are not stopping until we achieve this for this wonderful profession. As per a true "sophisticated realm" I submit we must look to hands on chiropractic adjustive analysis and technique and I suggest watching Dr. Ted Carrick or Ken Stillwell, Leonard Faye, you can't fake those psychomotor adjustive procedures....I

look forward to taking Ken Stillwell's hands on lab if life and my schedule doesn't get in the way....improving our adjustive skills isn't a destination it should be a continued journey wherein you never arrive you just keep improving.....

Vern Saboe, DC FACO

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't

take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

[Guest guest]

I am with you on this one .  It seems logical to have as many tools in your tool chest as possible to  handle the widest array of spine/joint problems.  Why limit yourself to just one mode of correcting joint problems?

Schneider DCPDXOn Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Dr. Kahn <gregorykahndc@...> wrote:

 

Still after 30 years it seems the best strategy is to master HVT and some low force methods some of which use instruments and some do not. For those biomechanically oriented who do not like instruments there is Muscle Energy Technique. Drop table work can be kind of in between.

Re monofiliment needles- they have only been around since the 1930s. It takes occidental based technology to manufacture them. Kahn DC Eugene

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...>

Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>; Oregondcs ; dr_tim_irving_dc <tirving@...>

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 10:59 AMSubject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

 

Here here!

 

I perform nearly 100% of adjustments manually.  I’ve had a lot of experience with instrument adjusting and light force as well.  I prefer to provide the service that I’ve found to be the most helpful for the specific patient. I rarely find that a patient would benefit more from the latter.  The former is also hard to beat when rehabilitating spinal injury and goes together so well with that type of care. Again, when I here chiropractors talking about abandoning HVLA, I cringe.  Some of their reasoning seems to be that it cannot be copied and we would have some sort of monopoly on the service. I maintain that a high quality HVLA performed by and experienced and skilled chiropractor cannot be copied via these rediculous little seminars.

 

As a matter of fact, you take a student just graduated from chiro school and compare their skills with a seasoned veteran in the field, the discrepancy in ability is noticeable.  So, not only is it a matter of education, but experience.  Chiropractors perform this in high numbers on a daily basis. Practitioners who feel they are going to help people with a wknd seminar and performing the maneuver 1x/week are misguided and perhaps a danger to the community.

 

We don’t have to “officially own” manipulation.  The public knows who the “bone crackers” are.

 

 

ph Medlin D.C.

 

From: Vern Saboe

Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 8:13 AM

Oregondcs ; dr_tim_irving_dc

Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

 

 

Well Tim, I say let them think they can " pop n pray " seemingly duplicating what we do with very limited training Les is correct we as a profession have never " owned " spinal and extremity manipulation it has be practiced for thousands of years.  What we must do is be better at it and we are and I remind everyone there is a reason DCs provide 94% of all " hands-on " manipulation in this country we are the best but we can be better.  While chiropractic students recieve an average of 1000 hours in spinal and extremity analysis and hands on adjusting/manipulation, and as you all know non of us were worth our salt until about our five year in practice a few thousand more hours and several hundred adjustments later, osteopaths on average have 150 hrs which is an elective, PTs have a five weekend certification program with many simply taking single weekend courses then believing they have the ability to do what we do, they

don't.  As a result they simply hurt people, make them uncomfortable, and do not gain the clinical outcomes we do what we as a profession need and deserve and that which the Oregon Chiropractic Association is fighting hard everyday for is a level playing field equal access to patients with equal reimbursements.  In short the OCA believes our chiropractic colleagues with all they/we have to offer patients, with our healing touch, compassionate caring clinical environment, is to not just survive but all chiropractic colleagues deserve to prosper and we are not stopping until we achieve this for this wonderful profession.  As per a true " sophisticated realm " I submit we must look to hands on chiropractic adjustive analysis and technique and I suggest watching Dr. Ted Carrick or Ken Stillwell, Leonard Faye, you can't fake those psychomotor adjustive procedures....I

look forward to taking Ken Stillwell's hands on lab if life and my schedule doesn't get in the way....improving our adjustive skills isn't a destination it should be a continued journey wherein you never arrive you just keep improving.....

 

Vern Saboe, DC FACO

 

 

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

  

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing " chiropractic-like " adjustments under the guise of Tuina.

I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?

We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't

take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting.

-Tim Irving

-- Schneider DC PDX

[Guest guest]

Exactly Will,

In my experience of 30 years now I believe it's rather suspect if any doc seems to have only one tool in their clinical tool box whatever that single intervention happens to be. Any clinician worth their salt has many tools and they use the tool(s) that their experience tells them is correct for that individual patient. This array of "tools" must always include the tool of last resort when nothing else seems to be working to relieve that individual's condition the "16-ounce framer's hammer" it is important however to show compassion even with these most difficult patients and as such ethics dictate that you first inquire which is their dominate hand.....then quickly without commentary (PARQ conf) strike the countralateral thumb with a mighty blow....relieves the other condition immediately and it's efficacy is 100% in doing so...lol....!

Cheers,

Vern Saboe

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

-- Schneider DC PDX

[Guest guest]

I love your subtle humor .  As an old home remodeler I had occasion to use a 16 ounce hammer for all kinds of odd jobs.  The ' BFH ' was our tool of last resort for many stubborn problems.   I have not used it for the purpose you suggest but it is does sound promising. 

Schneider DCPDXOn Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 10:29 PM, Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...> wrote:

Exactly Will,

 

In my experience of 30 years now I believe it's rather suspect if any doc seems to have only one tool in their clinical tool box whatever that single intervention happens to be.  Any clinician worth their salt has many tools and they use the tool(s) that their experience tells them is correct for that individual patient.  This array of " tools " must always include the tool of last resort when nothing else seems to be working to relieve that individual's condition the " 16-ounce framer's hammer " it is important however to show compassion even with these most difficult patients and as such ethics dictate that you first inquire which is their dominate hand.....then quickly without commentary (PARQ conf) strike the countralateral thumb with a mighty blow....relieves the other condition immediately and it's efficacy is 100% in doing so...lol....!

 

Cheers,

 

Vern Saboe

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

  

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing " chiropractic-like " adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

-- Schneider DC PDX

-- Schneider DC PDX

[Guest guest]

try winning a golf game with just a putter...vsaboe@...CC: gregorykahndc@...; spinetree@...; Oregondcs ; tirving@...From: portlandchiro1@...Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 09:56:01 -0700Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

I love your subtle humor . As an old home remodeler I had occasion to use a 16 ounce hammer for all kinds of odd jobs. The ' BFH ' was our tool of last resort for many stubborn problems. I have not used it for the purpose you suggest but it is does sound promising.

Schneider DCPDXOn Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 10:29 PM, Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...> wrote:

Exactly Will,

In my experience of 30 years now I believe it's rather suspect if any doc seems to have only one tool in their clinical tool box whatever that single intervention happens to be. Any clinician worth their salt has many tools and they use the tool(s) that their experience tells them is correct for that individual patient. This array of "tools" must always include the tool of last resort when nothing else seems to be working to relieve that individual's condition the "16-ounce framer's hammer" it is important however to show compassion even with these most difficult patients and as such ethics dictate that you first inquire which is their dominate hand.....then quickly without commentary (PARQ conf) strike the countralateral thumb with a mighty blow....relieves the other condition immediately and it's efficacy is 100% in doing so...lol....!

Cheers,

Vern Saboe

OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments.....

http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing "chiropractic-like" adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving

-- Schneider DC PDX

-- Schneider DC PDX

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Ha! That’s a great analogy doc…..gotta use that one since I be an avid golfer ….”try winning a golf game with just a putter” I love it….thanks, Vern From: p.scott roberts [mailto:sorghumdc@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:03 AMportlandchiro1@...; vsaboe@...Cc: gregorykahndc@...; spinetree@...; ; tirving@...Subject: RE: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... try winning a golf game with just a putter...vsaboe@...CC: gregorykahndc@...; spinetree@...; Oregondcs ; tirving@...From: portlandchiro1@...Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 09:56:01 -0700Subject: Re: OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... I love your subtle humor . As an old home remodeler I had occasion to use a 16 ounce hammer for all kinds of odd jobs. The ' BFH ' was our tool of last resort for many stubborn problems. I have not used it for the purpose you suggest but it is does sound promising. Schneider DCPDXOn Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 10:29 PM, Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...> wrote:Exactly Will, In my experience of 30 years now I believe it's rather suspect if any doc seems to have only one tool in their clinical tool box whatever that single intervention happens to be. Any clinician worth their salt has many tools and they use the tool(s) that their experience tells them is correct for that individual patient. This array of " tools " must always include the tool of last resort when nothing else seems to be working to relieve that individual's condition the " 16-ounce framer's hammer " it is important however to show compassion even with these most difficult patients and as such ethics dictate that you first inquire which is their dominate hand.....then quickly without commentary (PARQ conf) strike the countralateral thumb with a mighty blow....relieves the other condition immediately and it's efficacy is 100% in doing so...lol....! Cheers, Vern Saboe OCOM DN discussion video, they talk about possibly doing adjustments..... http://vimeo.com/18806859At about 29 minutes into the video, an OCOM student asks about the possibility of doing " chiropractic-like " adjustments under the guise of Tuina. I just can't get past the fact that they think we have minimal training on every aspect of trigger point therapy, anatomy and physiology and that it would take 600-800 hours of training to learn dry needling. How long does it take them to insert their first needle in acupuncture school?We know the anatomy better, we know trigger point therapy better (they actually talk about teaching us trigger point therapy as if they are the TP experts), we know how to treat myofascial lesions, how to prescribe rehab after we treat them, and give advice on how to avoid developing them in the future. We just need training on clean needle technique (easy), needle selection and insertion...... That doesn't take long (as those of us who have taken DN courses know).Anyway, thought some of you would like to see the video, it gives us a window into what the acupuncture community thinks of us and our training, regarding myofascial lesions and even adjusting. -Tim Irving -- Schneider DC PDX-- Schneider DC PDX