RE: DCs as Primary Care Providers?

[Guest guest]

Dr. Chestnut mentions hemochromatosis and other genetic problems in his recent blog about Species Specific & Species Wide Nutrition.Check it out : http://www.wellnessandprevention.com/index.cfm/2011/4/21/Species-Wide-and-Species-Specific-The-Science-and-Paradigm-of-Wellness--Prevention-NutritionI'm sure if he was presented with how to go about creating a DC PCP program, some type of screening for these rare issues would be addressed. His current program and recommendations, in my opinion, are designed for practicing DCs to implement wellness lifestyle programs into their current practice, not necessarily to become a PCP.Jamey D.On Apr 21, 2011, at 9:15 PM, Vern Saboe wrote:Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a "wellness assessment" but clearly at a different level than what "Master Chestnut" would have performed. A different level of assessing just how "well" is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete "wellness assessment" the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by "Master Cessna." Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that "black and white." I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients... Have a great weekend, Vern Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW ◠Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 ◠Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of "Master Chestnut" I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using "natural remedies" rather than medicine's "big pharma" etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a "heart attack." He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an "exercise nut" since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via "Master Chestnut's" words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11

[Guest guest]

I agree with this.

We do have to be a bit more well rounded as chiropractic physicians if we are to be true and effective PCP's. We must realize that there is many times much more to a story than "poor choices and toxic environments". Disease and genetic predisposition is real. We must be careful that we analyze each case accordingly. We certainly don't want this patient of Vern's to walk away with a "Wellness Ratio" etc. and have him later diagnosed with Hemochromotosis. Patient: "Yea, and I went to this chiropractor who told me I made poor choices all my life and that I just needed to live more healthy and this wouldn't be happening." Not the best PR and a bit cool in the compassion department.

Get to the root of the problem first by diagnosing as accurately as possible what the patient's condition is. The Wellness management follows.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Vern Saboe

Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:15 PM

Abrahamson ; 'Jamey Dyson'

Cc: Oregondcs

Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"

 Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a "wellness assessment" but clearly at a different level than what "Master Chestnut" would have performed. A different level of assessing just how "well" is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete "wellness assessment" the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by "Master Cessna." Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that "black and white." I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...

Have a great weekend,

Vern

RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of "Master Chestnut" I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using "natural remedies" rather than medicine's "big pharma" etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a "heart attack." He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an "exercise nut" since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via "Master Chestnut's" words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe

No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11

[Guest guest]

I agree with this.

We do have to be a bit more well rounded as chiropractic physicians if we are to be true and effective PCP's. We must realize that there is many times much more to a story than "poor choices and toxic environments". Disease and genetic predisposition is real. We must be careful that we analyze each case accordingly. We certainly don't want this patient of Vern's to walk away with a "Wellness Ratio" etc. and have him later diagnosed with Hemochromotosis. Patient: "Yea, and I went to this chiropractor who told me I made poor choices all my life and that I just needed to live more healthy and this wouldn't be happening." Not the best PR and a bit cool in the compassion department.

Get to the root of the problem first by diagnosing as accurately as possible what the patient's condition is. The Wellness management follows.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Vern Saboe

Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:15 PM

Abrahamson ; 'Jamey Dyson'

Cc: Oregondcs

Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"

 Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a "wellness assessment" but clearly at a different level than what "Master Chestnut" would have performed. A different level of assessing just how "well" is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete "wellness assessment" the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by "Master Cessna." Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that "black and white." I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...

Have a great weekend,

Vern

RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of "Master Chestnut" I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using "natural remedies" rather than medicine's "big pharma" etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a "heart attack." He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an "exercise nut" since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via "Master Chestnut's" words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe

No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11

[Guest guest]

Perfectly said Jamey…..Vern From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:30 AMVern SaboeCc: Abrahamson; Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Dr. Chestnut mentions hemochromatosis and other genetic problems in his recent blog about Species Specific & Species Wide Nutrition. Check it out : http://www.wellnessandprevention.com/index.cfm/2011/4/21/Species-Wide-and-Species-Specific-The-Science-and-Paradigm-of-Wellness--Prevention-Nutrition I'm sure if he was presented with how to go about creating a DC PCP program, some type of screening for these rare issues would be addressed. His current program and recommendations, in my opinion, are designed for practicing DCs to implement wellness lifestyle programs into their current practice, not necessarily to become a PCP. Jamey D. On Apr 21, 2011, at 9:15 PM, Vern Saboe wrote:Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients... Have a great weekend, Vern Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW ◠Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 ◠Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. " He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11

[Guest guest]

Perfectly said Jamey…..Vern From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:30 AMVern SaboeCc: Abrahamson; Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Dr. Chestnut mentions hemochromatosis and other genetic problems in his recent blog about Species Specific & Species Wide Nutrition. Check it out : http://www.wellnessandprevention.com/index.cfm/2011/4/21/Species-Wide-and-Species-Specific-The-Science-and-Paradigm-of-Wellness--Prevention-Nutrition I'm sure if he was presented with how to go about creating a DC PCP program, some type of screening for these rare issues would be addressed. His current program and recommendations, in my opinion, are designed for practicing DCs to implement wellness lifestyle programs into their current practice, not necessarily to become a PCP. Jamey D. On Apr 21, 2011, at 9:15 PM, Vern Saboe wrote:Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients... Have a great weekend, Vern Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW ◠Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 ◠Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. " He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11

[Guest guest]

Just to take this to another step:

I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually.

Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!

And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis” complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy”.

I’m not buying “familial” anything. Prove it.

And “possible cardiomyopathy”; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing.

Take this to the legislature and your practice:

80% of Americans have a chronic illness!

55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.

Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole” symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?

Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels!

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>

Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>

Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700

Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>

Cc: <Oregondcs >

Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...

Have a great weekend,

Vern

Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors.

However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything.

This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches.

With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage.

I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound!

As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health.

So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more.

A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world.

You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time.

If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver.

Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system!

Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy!

That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think?

Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWP

Doctor of Chiropractic (DC)

Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)

Advanced Chiropractic - a licensed

Eat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center

1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304

Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444

www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com>

On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote:

Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc.

He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever.

He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. "

He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day!

I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman??

Vern Saboe

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11

[Guest guest]

Wellness Doctor does not mean PCP. PCP's can be wellness orientated (but I don't know any who are), but most of what is done under the guise of wellness is "preventive services", i.e. the annual exam, the breast screening, the PSA, the lipid panels. Then when the findings are abnormal the person is NOT counseled on a wellness lifestyle approach, but is told to "eat healthy and exercise", and when that ultimately "fails" they are prescribed medication. Looking at lab work with a wellness perspective or from a pathogenic perspective are different points of view. Doesn't mean that a truly ill shouldn't get focused aggressive care, but we as as society spend a lot on tests only to be told "your normal", when maybe your not, or "your lipids are bad, you need Lipitor" when what we really need is a change in diet and lifestyle. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724vsaboe@...; drjdyson1@...CC: Oregondcs From: drscott@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:47:06 -0700Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels! E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a "wellness assessment" but clearly at a different level than what "Master Chestnut" would have performed. A different level of assessing just how "well" is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete "wellness assessment" the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by "Master Cessna." Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that "black and white." I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients... Have a great weekend, Vern RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of "Master Chestnut" I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using "natural remedies" rather than medicine's "big pharma" etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a "heart attack." He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an "exercise nut" since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via "Master Chestnut's" words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11

[Guest guest]

Wellness Doctor does not mean PCP. PCP's can be wellness orientated (but I don't know any who are), but most of what is done under the guise of wellness is "preventive services", i.e. the annual exam, the breast screening, the PSA, the lipid panels. Then when the findings are abnormal the person is NOT counseled on a wellness lifestyle approach, but is told to "eat healthy and exercise", and when that ultimately "fails" they are prescribed medication. Looking at lab work with a wellness perspective or from a pathogenic perspective are different points of view. Doesn't mean that a truly ill shouldn't get focused aggressive care, but we as as society spend a lot on tests only to be told "your normal", when maybe your not, or "your lipids are bad, you need Lipitor" when what we really need is a change in diet and lifestyle. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724vsaboe@...; drjdyson1@...CC: Oregondcs From: drscott@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:47:06 -0700Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels! E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a "wellness assessment" but clearly at a different level than what "Master Chestnut" would have performed. A different level of assessing just how "well" is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete "wellness assessment" the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by "Master Cessna." Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that "black and white." I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients... Have a great weekend, Vern RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of "Master Chestnut" I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using "natural remedies" rather than medicine's "big pharma" etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a "heart attack." He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an "exercise nut" since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via "Master Chestnut's" words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11

[Guest guest]

CBC would have been of no help though he had elevated hemoglobin, hematocrit his sed rate was normal his white cells were within normal “clinical†range but elevated as per the “homeostatic†range and as such would have not given the medics a clue….no signs of kidney dysfunction…btw…..as per lifestyle changes being the only answer you yourself y have admitted that not all patients are willing to make those changes, some will, many will not, and many many will do something in between what you suggest and what they are willing to do that shades of grey deal again.   Also, if we can expedite the bodies cleaning up or addressing the organ/system dysfunction(s) via non-toxic natural remedies that will relieve that patient’s symptoms faster getting them feeling much better while at the same time instructing them on the why and how to make those lifestyle changes doesn’t that sound reasonable? Vern From: Abrahamson [mailto:drscott@...] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:47 AMVern Saboe; 'Jamey Dyson'Cc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels! E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...Have a great weekend,Vern RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. " He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11

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Exactly what I was running into with the Governor’s “Health System Transformation Team†8-weeks of meetings regarding health care reform.  Prevention in all of the states entities was really “screenings†screening individuals with know chronic disease to ensure they were being managed properly so they didn’t fall into crisis and end up in the local ER.  Or…screening of asymptomatic individuals for unrecognized disease so they could start treatment via of course big pharma.  They would refer to lifestyle choices being 40% or more of the problem but really didn’t speak in terms of what to do about changing that as in a Chestnut educational program.  All of which I continued to point out in our small group break out sessions I also kept beating the desk top stating that if we were going to get meaningful health care reform here in Oregon we need to move away from the over-reliance on all the pharmacology DRUGS!  Why do I say that because we are approaching in this country nearly 4 billion prescription purchases per year that’s “B†BILLION and it is projected we will spend right at $500 billion for prescription medications by 2015 the year universal health care kicks in!  All these drugs result in just about 2 million hospitalizations and 800,000+ ER visits each year due to “Adverse Drug Events†(reactions) resulting in several billons of $$ in additional cost and that is on top of the direct cost of these meds it is not sustainable.  Many of these drugs don’t work as big pharma would have you believe and the side effects are misreported not reported at all.  About 250,000 folks die each year to to adverse drug events and medication errors the equivalent to one 747 400 D crashing every single day!  How long would the FAA allow this before grounding all 747 400 Ds??? One day, two, max yet no one is shutting down big pharma.  This group was over represented by folks believing in the medical model of health care they would just have this glazed look on their faces…..but I will continue to beat on my desk until they wake up from their slumber…. Vern Saboe From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BRIAN SEITZSent: Friday, April 22, 2011 9:11 AM Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Wellness Doctor does not mean PCP. PCP's can be wellness orientated (but I don't know any who are), but most of what is done under the guise of wellness is " preventive services " , i.e. the annual exam, the breast screening, the PSA, the lipid panels. Then when the findings are abnormal the person is NOT counseled on a wellness lifestyle approach, but is told to " eat healthy and exercise " , and when that ultimately " fails " they are prescribed medication. Looking at lab work with a wellness perspective or from a pathogenic perspective are different points of view. Doesn't mean that a truly ill shouldn't get focused aggressive care, but we as as society spend a lot on tests only to be told " your normal " , when maybe your not, or " your lipids are bad, you need Lipitor " when what we really need is a change in diet and lifestyle. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724vsaboe@...; drjdyson1@...CC: Oregondcs From: drscott@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:47:06 -0700Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Error! Filename not specified.Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels!Error! Filename not specified. E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...Have a great weekend,Vern RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. " He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11

[Guest guest]

Exactly what I was running into with the Governor’s “Health System Transformation Team†8-weeks of meetings regarding health care reform.  Prevention in all of the states entities was really “screenings†screening individuals with know chronic disease to ensure they were being managed properly so they didn’t fall into crisis and end up in the local ER.  Or…screening of asymptomatic individuals for unrecognized disease so they could start treatment via of course big pharma.  They would refer to lifestyle choices being 40% or more of the problem but really didn’t speak in terms of what to do about changing that as in a Chestnut educational program.  All of which I continued to point out in our small group break out sessions I also kept beating the desk top stating that if we were going to get meaningful health care reform here in Oregon we need to move away from the over-reliance on all the pharmacology DRUGS!  Why do I say that because we are approaching in this country nearly 4 billion prescription purchases per year that’s “B†BILLION and it is projected we will spend right at $500 billion for prescription medications by 2015 the year universal health care kicks in!  All these drugs result in just about 2 million hospitalizations and 800,000+ ER visits each year due to “Adverse Drug Events†(reactions) resulting in several billons of $$ in additional cost and that is on top of the direct cost of these meds it is not sustainable.  Many of these drugs don’t work as big pharma would have you believe and the side effects are misreported not reported at all.  About 250,000 folks die each year to to adverse drug events and medication errors the equivalent to one 747 400 D crashing every single day!  How long would the FAA allow this before grounding all 747 400 Ds??? One day, two, max yet no one is shutting down big pharma.  This group was over represented by folks believing in the medical model of health care they would just have this glazed look on their faces…..but I will continue to beat on my desk until they wake up from their slumber…. Vern Saboe From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BRIAN SEITZSent: Friday, April 22, 2011 9:11 AM Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Wellness Doctor does not mean PCP. PCP's can be wellness orientated (but I don't know any who are), but most of what is done under the guise of wellness is " preventive services " , i.e. the annual exam, the breast screening, the PSA, the lipid panels. Then when the findings are abnormal the person is NOT counseled on a wellness lifestyle approach, but is told to " eat healthy and exercise " , and when that ultimately " fails " they are prescribed medication. Looking at lab work with a wellness perspective or from a pathogenic perspective are different points of view. Doesn't mean that a truly ill shouldn't get focused aggressive care, but we as as society spend a lot on tests only to be told " your normal " , when maybe your not, or " your lipids are bad, you need Lipitor " when what we really need is a change in diet and lifestyle. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724vsaboe@...; drjdyson1@...CC: Oregondcs From: drscott@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:47:06 -0700Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Error! Filename not specified.Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels!Error! Filename not specified. E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...Have a great weekend,Vern RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. " He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11

[Guest guest]

Hurray for the desk pounder ! Let us know how many brass drums and tubas you need behind that pounded fist and we'll bring em'! To coin a phrase: to the continuted good fight! SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com dcdocbrian@...; From: vsaboe@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:34:05 -0700Subject: RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Exactly what I was running into with the Governor’s “Health System Transformation Team†8-weeks of meetings regarding health care reform. Prevention in all of the states entities was really “screenings†screening individuals with know chronic disease to ensure they were being managed properly so they didn’t fall into crisis and end up in the local ER. Or…screening of asymptomatic individuals for unrecognized disease so they could start treatment via of course big pharma. They would refer to lifestyle choices being 40% or more of the problem but really didn’t speak in terms of what to do about changing that as in a Chestnut educational program. All of which I continued to point out in our small group break out sessions I also kept beating the desk top stating that if we were going to get meaningful health care reform here in Oregon we need to move away from the over-reliance on all the pharmacology DRUGS! Why do I say that because we are approaching in this country nearly 4 billion prescription purchases per year that’s “B†BILLION and it is projected we will spend right at $500 billion for prescription medications by 2015 the year universal health care kicks in! All these drugs result in just about 2 million hospitalizations and 800,000+ ER visits each year due to “Adverse Drug Events†(reactions) resulting in several billons of $$ in additional cost and that is on top of the direct cost of these meds it is not sustainable. Many of these drugs don’t work as big pharma would have you believe and the side effects are misreported not reported at all. About 250,000 folks die each year to to adverse drug events and medication errors the equivalent to one 747 400 D crashing every single day! How long would the FAA allow this before grounding all 747 400 Ds??? One day, two, max yet no one is shutting down big pharma. This group was over represented by folks believing in the medical model of health care they would just have this glazed look on their faces…..but I will continue to beat on my desk until they wake up from their slumber…. Vern Saboe From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BRIAN SEITZSent: Friday, April 22, 2011 9:11 AM Subject: RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Wellness Doctor does not mean PCP. PCP's can be wellness orientated (but I don't know any who are), but most of what is done under the guise of wellness is "preventive services", i.e. the annual exam, the breast screening, the PSA, the lipid panels. Then when the findings are abnormal the person is NOT counseled on a wellness lifestyle approach, but is told to "eat healthy and exercise", and when that ultimately "fails" they are prescribed medication. Looking at lab work with a wellness perspective or from a pathogenic perspective are different points of view. Doesn't mean that a truly ill shouldn't get focused aggressive care, but we as as society spend a lot on tests only to be told "your normal", when maybe your not, or "your lipids are bad, you need Lipitor" when what we really need is a change in diet and lifestyle. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724vsaboe@...; drjdyson1@...CC: Oregondcs From: drscott@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:47:06 -0700Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Error! Filename not specified.Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels!Error! Filename not specified. E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a "wellness assessment" but clearly at a different level than what "Master Chestnut" would have performed. A different level of assessing just how "well" is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete "wellness assessment" the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by "Master Cessna." Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that "black and white." I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...Have a great weekend,Vern RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of "Master Chestnut" I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using "natural remedies" rather than medicine's "big pharma" etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a "heart attack." He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an "exercise nut" since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via "Master Chestnut's" words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11

[Guest guest]

Hurray for the desk pounder ! Let us know how many brass drums and tubas you need behind that pounded fist and we'll bring em'! To coin a phrase: to the continuted good fight! SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com dcdocbrian@...; From: vsaboe@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:34:05 -0700Subject: RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Exactly what I was running into with the Governor’s “Health System Transformation Team†8-weeks of meetings regarding health care reform. Prevention in all of the states entities was really “screenings†screening individuals with know chronic disease to ensure they were being managed properly so they didn’t fall into crisis and end up in the local ER. Or…screening of asymptomatic individuals for unrecognized disease so they could start treatment via of course big pharma. They would refer to lifestyle choices being 40% or more of the problem but really didn’t speak in terms of what to do about changing that as in a Chestnut educational program. All of which I continued to point out in our small group break out sessions I also kept beating the desk top stating that if we were going to get meaningful health care reform here in Oregon we need to move away from the over-reliance on all the pharmacology DRUGS! Why do I say that because we are approaching in this country nearly 4 billion prescription purchases per year that’s “B†BILLION and it is projected we will spend right at $500 billion for prescription medications by 2015 the year universal health care kicks in! All these drugs result in just about 2 million hospitalizations and 800,000+ ER visits each year due to “Adverse Drug Events†(reactions) resulting in several billons of $$ in additional cost and that is on top of the direct cost of these meds it is not sustainable. Many of these drugs don’t work as big pharma would have you believe and the side effects are misreported not reported at all. About 250,000 folks die each year to to adverse drug events and medication errors the equivalent to one 747 400 D crashing every single day! How long would the FAA allow this before grounding all 747 400 Ds??? One day, two, max yet no one is shutting down big pharma. This group was over represented by folks believing in the medical model of health care they would just have this glazed look on their faces…..but I will continue to beat on my desk until they wake up from their slumber…. Vern Saboe From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BRIAN SEITZSent: Friday, April 22, 2011 9:11 AM Subject: RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Wellness Doctor does not mean PCP. PCP's can be wellness orientated (but I don't know any who are), but most of what is done under the guise of wellness is "preventive services", i.e. the annual exam, the breast screening, the PSA, the lipid panels. Then when the findings are abnormal the person is NOT counseled on a wellness lifestyle approach, but is told to "eat healthy and exercise", and when that ultimately "fails" they are prescribed medication. Looking at lab work with a wellness perspective or from a pathogenic perspective are different points of view. Doesn't mean that a truly ill shouldn't get focused aggressive care, but we as as society spend a lot on tests only to be told "your normal", when maybe your not, or "your lipids are bad, you need Lipitor" when what we really need is a change in diet and lifestyle. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724vsaboe@...; drjdyson1@...CC: Oregondcs From: drscott@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:47:06 -0700Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Error! Filename not specified.Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels!Error! Filename not specified. E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a "wellness assessment" but clearly at a different level than what "Master Chestnut" would have performed. A different level of assessing just how "well" is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete "wellness assessment" the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by "Master Cessna." Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that "black and white." I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...Have a great weekend,Vern RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of "Master Chestnut" I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using "natural remedies" rather than medicine's "big pharma" etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a "heart attack." He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an "exercise nut" since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via "Master Chestnut's" words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11

[Guest guest]

I like your vision Vern.  Keep up the battle and eventually the truth will triumph. Schneider DCPDXOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, Sunny Kierstyn <skrndc1@...> wrote:

 

Hurray for the desk pounder !   Let us know how many brass drums and tubas you need behind that pounded fist and we'll bring em'!

 

To coin a phrase:  to the continuted good fight!

 

 

 

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834

www.drsunnykierstyn.com 

dcdocbrian@...; From: vsaboe@...

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:34:05 -0700Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

 

Exactly what I was running into with the Governor’s “Health System Transformation Team†8-weeks of meetings regarding health care reform.  Prevention in all of the states entities was really “screenings†screening individuals with know chronic disease to ensure they were being managed properly so they didn’t fall into crisis and end up in the local ER.  Or…screening of asymptomatic individuals for unrecognized disease so they could start treatment via of course big pharma.  They would refer to lifestyle choices being 40% or more of the problem but really didn’t speak in terms of what to do about changing that as in a Chestnut educational program.  All of which I continued to point out in our small group break out sessions I also kept beating the desk top stating that if we were going to get meaningful health care reform here in Oregon we need to move away from the over-reliance on all the pharmacology DRUGS!  Why do I say that because we are approaching in this country nearly 4 billion prescription purchases per year that’s “B†BILLION and it is projected we will spend right at $500 billion for prescription medications by 2015 the year universal health care kicks in!  All these drugs result in just about 2 million hospitalizations and 800,000+ ER visits each year due to “Adverse Drug Events†(reactions) resulting in several billons of $$ in additional cost and that is on top of the direct cost of these meds it is not sustainable.  Many of these drugs don’t work as big pharma would have you believe and the side effects are misreported not reported at all.  About 250,000 folks die each year to to adverse drug events and medication errors the equivalent to one 747 400 D crashing every single day!  How long would the FAA allow this before grounding all 747 400 Ds??? One day, two, max yet no one is shutting down big pharma. 

 

This group was over represented by folks believing in the medical model of health care they would just have this glazed look on their faces…..but I will continue to beat on my desk until they wake up from their slumber….

 

Vern Saboe

 

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BRIAN SEITZ

Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 9:11 AM Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

 

 

Wellness Doctor does not mean PCP.  PCP's can be wellness orientated (but I don't know any who are), but most of what is done under the guise of wellness is " preventive services " , i.e. the annual exam, the breast screening, the PSA, the lipid panels.  Then when the findings are abnormal the person is NOT counseled on a wellness lifestyle approach, but is told to " eat healthy and exercise " , and when that ultimately " fails " they are prescribed medication.  Looking at lab work with a wellness perspective or from a pathogenic perspective are different points of view. Doesn't mean that a truly ill shouldn't get focused aggressive care, but we as as society spend a lot on tests only to be told " your normal " , when maybe your not, or " your lipids are bad, you need Lipitor " when what we really need is a change in diet and lifestyle. 

Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724

vsaboe@...; drjdyson1@...CC: Oregondcs

From: drscott@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:47:06 -0700Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

 

Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!

And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by  familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing.

Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?

Error! Filename not specified.Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels!Error! Filename not specified.

E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>

Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>

Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed.  A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure.  I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. "  Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. "   I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more.  Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...

Have a great weekend,Vern

 RE: " DCs as Primary Care  Providers? "

      Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others.  Jamey I need to  educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that  would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive  lifestyle changes….

 In the 2-year internal disorders program I  took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a  battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in  the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person  and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology.   This  testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early  subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating  these aggressively with evidence based “natural† substances so they  didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the  while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive  lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not  enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears  stuff and wish to learn from him.

 The “wellness screen†includes  the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung  function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron  saturation, serum ferritin.  It includes the usual lipid panel and we  calculate the cardiovascular risk.  It includes a complete blood count  with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well  (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly  blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood  typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy  etc.

 The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had  elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated  triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated  serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532!   Remember  he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas).  Elevated ferritin such  as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing  systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good  deal as well….

 My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by  familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what  his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely  died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.† I referred him to his MD  PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it  did and he started his  phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich  foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet,  exercise, and thinking well  (lifestyle changes) would not have saved  him.  The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was  “normal.â€

 I believe it is safe to say that it is at least  probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of  untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to  the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes  “stiff.â€

 My point? As first contact, portal of entry  chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and  differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on  neuromusculoskeletal complaints.  Many life threatening diseases can  masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to  recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology.  In  addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ  and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do  not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on  why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect  sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating  wellness while effectively managing common health  disorders.â€

 Vern Saboe  From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...]  

Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern  SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject:  Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

First of all I would recognized that this man  is a product of his environment and choices.  He has lived for a number  of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic  and deficient choices day-in and day-out.  He is the way he is because of  these toxic-deficient stressors.  

 However, he is  gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate  intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been  putting his body and mind through over the years.  That intelligence is  just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be  removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function.  This man  is programmed for health!  The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight  gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a  long time.  He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin  resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced  immunity.  There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on  with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything.   

 This is the defining difference between a DC  PCP and an MD PCP.  We believe the body is strong, intelligent,  self-healing, perfectly self-regulating.  They believe the body is weak,  stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction.  2 different  beliefs, 2 different approaches.

 With this  understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the  toxicity and deficiency in his life.  To be successful, it needs to  happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about  his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility.  He needs to  live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period  of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all  the years of damage.

 I would put him on the Innate  Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that  teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most  importantly - how to get themselves to change.  On this program, he would  have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of  health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional  health and vitality.  On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for  a 12 month period.  He would attend lifestyle education workshops.   He would be connected with others who are going through the same process  of changing their life.  The program helps a person remove the toxicity  and deficiency in their life.  Their internal regulatory system, relieved  from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function.  Simple, yet  elegantly powerful and profound!

 As a DC PCP, I would  also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement  therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input  to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better  spinothalamic tract function.  Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12  weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures  with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks.  He would be taught  spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this  gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree.  However,  because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive  chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal  health.

 So, if we did the lifestyle program and  chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually  become healthier.  He would continue improving his lifestyle after  the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer.  He would  be a role model for his kids and grandkids.  He would feel like he has  more control of his health.  He would be demanding healthier products  with his purchasing dollars.  He would not be a burden as he gets older,  but an asset.  He would cost the system less, not  more.

 A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like  this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year.  Then  $1,000-$2,000 thereafter.  This type of care would improve almost all of  the chronic illness that people would come in with.  Instead of  healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a  person learns how to live healthy in our modern  world.

 You could also through in blood work as something  a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after  lifestyle/chiropractic intervention.  This would add to the cost,  however.  It would also be cool to document changes in brain function  over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably  cost-prohibitive at this time.

 If he did the standard MD  PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and  told he needs to lose some weight.  He might get a referral to a physical  therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn  some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to  exercise in general.  After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has  been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the  effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol  in the liver.  

 Cholesterol is essential for the  internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is  stressed out.  Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones  and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body.  The statin  is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more  problems.  It is another stressor to the system!   

 Every year he would cost the system more money, he  would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes,  he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between  60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease.  We lose a husband, a father,  a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community.  (The  government also loses a tax payor).  However, sadly with his passing, it  almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was  so low at that point.  Even the government feels relieved because it was  paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes!   Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy!

 That  would be my approach in a nutshell.  What do you  think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)

Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner  (CCWP)

Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ®  Center

1295 Wallace Rd NW ◠Salem, OR   97304

Phone 503-361-3949 ◠Fax  503-763-6444

www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com  <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com>   

On Apr 19, 2011,  at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe  wrote:   Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master  Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both:   This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to  know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs  as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc.,  etc.

 He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and  reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar  junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction.  The back pain  has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a  3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever.

 He denies any significant traumatic event.   However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his  doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due  to a " heart attack. "  

 He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet  though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually  rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out  daily if not twice a day!

 I'm curious considering all you know via " Master  Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this  gentleman??

  Vern Saboe    

 

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I like your vision Vern.  Keep up the battle and eventually the truth will triumph. Schneider DCPDXOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, Sunny Kierstyn <skrndc1@...> wrote:

 

Hurray for the desk pounder !   Let us know how many brass drums and tubas you need behind that pounded fist and we'll bring em'!

 

To coin a phrase:  to the continuted good fight!

 

 

 

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834

www.drsunnykierstyn.com 

dcdocbrian@...; From: vsaboe@...

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:34:05 -0700Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

 

Exactly what I was running into with the Governor’s “Health System Transformation Team†8-weeks of meetings regarding health care reform.  Prevention in all of the states entities was really “screenings†screening individuals with know chronic disease to ensure they were being managed properly so they didn’t fall into crisis and end up in the local ER.  Or…screening of asymptomatic individuals for unrecognized disease so they could start treatment via of course big pharma.  They would refer to lifestyle choices being 40% or more of the problem but really didn’t speak in terms of what to do about changing that as in a Chestnut educational program.  All of which I continued to point out in our small group break out sessions I also kept beating the desk top stating that if we were going to get meaningful health care reform here in Oregon we need to move away from the over-reliance on all the pharmacology DRUGS!  Why do I say that because we are approaching in this country nearly 4 billion prescription purchases per year that’s “B†BILLION and it is projected we will spend right at $500 billion for prescription medications by 2015 the year universal health care kicks in!  All these drugs result in just about 2 million hospitalizations and 800,000+ ER visits each year due to “Adverse Drug Events†(reactions) resulting in several billons of $$ in additional cost and that is on top of the direct cost of these meds it is not sustainable.  Many of these drugs don’t work as big pharma would have you believe and the side effects are misreported not reported at all.  About 250,000 folks die each year to to adverse drug events and medication errors the equivalent to one 747 400 D crashing every single day!  How long would the FAA allow this before grounding all 747 400 Ds??? One day, two, max yet no one is shutting down big pharma. 

 

This group was over represented by folks believing in the medical model of health care they would just have this glazed look on their faces…..but I will continue to beat on my desk until they wake up from their slumber….

 

Vern Saboe

 

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BRIAN SEITZ

Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 9:11 AM Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

 

 

Wellness Doctor does not mean PCP.  PCP's can be wellness orientated (but I don't know any who are), but most of what is done under the guise of wellness is " preventive services " , i.e. the annual exam, the breast screening, the PSA, the lipid panels.  Then when the findings are abnormal the person is NOT counseled on a wellness lifestyle approach, but is told to " eat healthy and exercise " , and when that ultimately " fails " they are prescribed medication.  Looking at lab work with a wellness perspective or from a pathogenic perspective are different points of view. Doesn't mean that a truly ill shouldn't get focused aggressive care, but we as as society spend a lot on tests only to be told " your normal " , when maybe your not, or " your lipids are bad, you need Lipitor " when what we really need is a change in diet and lifestyle. 

Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724

vsaboe@...; drjdyson1@...CC: Oregondcs

From: drscott@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:47:06 -0700Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

 

Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!

And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by  familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing.

Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?

Error! Filename not specified.Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels!Error! Filename not specified.

E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>

Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>

Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed.  A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure.  I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. "  Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. "   I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more.  Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...

Have a great weekend,Vern

 RE: " DCs as Primary Care  Providers? "

      Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others.  Jamey I need to  educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that  would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive  lifestyle changes….

 In the 2-year internal disorders program I  took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a  battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in  the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person  and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology.   This  testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early  subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating  these aggressively with evidence based “natural† substances so they  didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the  while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive  lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not  enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears  stuff and wish to learn from him.

 The “wellness screen†includes  the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung  function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron  saturation, serum ferritin.  It includes the usual lipid panel and we  calculate the cardiovascular risk.  It includes a complete blood count  with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well  (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly  blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood  typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy  etc.

 The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had  elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated  triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated  serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532!   Remember  he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas).  Elevated ferritin such  as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing  systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good  deal as well….

 My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by  familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what  his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely  died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.† I referred him to his MD  PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it  did and he started his  phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich  foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet,  exercise, and thinking well  (lifestyle changes) would not have saved  him.  The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was  “normal.â€

 I believe it is safe to say that it is at least  probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of  untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to  the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes  “stiff.â€

 My point? As first contact, portal of entry  chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and  differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on  neuromusculoskeletal complaints.  Many life threatening diseases can  masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to  recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology.  In  addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ  and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do  not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on  why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect  sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating  wellness while effectively managing common health  disorders.â€

 Vern Saboe  From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...]  

Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern  SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject:  Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

First of all I would recognized that this man  is a product of his environment and choices.  He has lived for a number  of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic  and deficient choices day-in and day-out.  He is the way he is because of  these toxic-deficient stressors.  

 However, he is  gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate  intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been  putting his body and mind through over the years.  That intelligence is  just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be  removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function.  This man  is programmed for health!  The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight  gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a  long time.  He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin  resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced  immunity.  There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on  with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything.   

 This is the defining difference between a DC  PCP and an MD PCP.  We believe the body is strong, intelligent,  self-healing, perfectly self-regulating.  They believe the body is weak,  stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction.  2 different  beliefs, 2 different approaches.

 With this  understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the  toxicity and deficiency in his life.  To be successful, it needs to  happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about  his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility.  He needs to  live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period  of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all  the years of damage.

 I would put him on the Innate  Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that  teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most  importantly - how to get themselves to change.  On this program, he would  have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of  health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional  health and vitality.  On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for  a 12 month period.  He would attend lifestyle education workshops.   He would be connected with others who are going through the same process  of changing their life.  The program helps a person remove the toxicity  and deficiency in their life.  Their internal regulatory system, relieved  from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function.  Simple, yet  elegantly powerful and profound!

 As a DC PCP, I would  also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement  therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input  to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better  spinothalamic tract function.  Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12  weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures  with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks.  He would be taught  spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this  gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree.  However,  because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive  chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal  health.

 So, if we did the lifestyle program and  chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually  become healthier.  He would continue improving his lifestyle after  the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer.  He would  be a role model for his kids and grandkids.  He would feel like he has  more control of his health.  He would be demanding healthier products  with his purchasing dollars.  He would not be a burden as he gets older,  but an asset.  He would cost the system less, not  more.

 A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like  this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year.  Then  $1,000-$2,000 thereafter.  This type of care would improve almost all of  the chronic illness that people would come in with.  Instead of  healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a  person learns how to live healthy in our modern  world.

 You could also through in blood work as something  a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after  lifestyle/chiropractic intervention.  This would add to the cost,  however.  It would also be cool to document changes in brain function  over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably  cost-prohibitive at this time.

 If he did the standard MD  PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and  told he needs to lose some weight.  He might get a referral to a physical  therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn  some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to  exercise in general.  After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has  been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the  effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol  in the liver.  

 Cholesterol is essential for the  internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is  stressed out.  Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones  and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body.  The statin  is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more  problems.  It is another stressor to the system!   

 Every year he would cost the system more money, he  would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes,  he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between  60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease.  We lose a husband, a father,  a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community.  (The  government also loses a tax payor).  However, sadly with his passing, it  almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was  so low at that point.  Even the government feels relieved because it was  paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes!   Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy!

 That  would be my approach in a nutshell.  What do you  think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)

Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner  (CCWP)

Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ®  Center

1295 Wallace Rd NW ◠Salem, OR   97304

Phone 503-361-3949 ◠Fax  503-763-6444

www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com  <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com>   

On Apr 19, 2011,  at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe  wrote:   Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master  Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both:   This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to  know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs  as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc.,  etc.

 He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and  reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar  junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction.  The back pain  has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a  3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever.

 He denies any significant traumatic event.   However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his  doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due  to a " heart attack. "  

 He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet  though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually  rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out  daily if not twice a day!

 I'm curious considering all you know via " Master  Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this  gentleman??

  Vern Saboe    

 

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-- Schneider DC PDX

[Guest guest]

THanks buddy will do…..blessings Vern From: Schneider [mailto:portlandchiro1@...] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 10:04 AMSunny KierstynCc: Vern Saboe; Seitz; Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " I like your vision Vern. Keep up the battle and eventually the truth will triumph. Schneider DCPDXOn Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:37 AM, Sunny Kierstyn <skrndc1@...> wrote: Hurray for the desk pounder ! Let us know how many brass drums and tubas you need behind that pounded fist and we'll bring em'! To coin a phrase: to the continuted good fight! SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com dcdocbrian@...; From: vsaboe@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:34:05 -0700Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Exactly what I was running into with the Governor’s “Health System Transformation Team†8-weeks of meetings regarding health care reform. Prevention in all of the states entities was really “screenings†screening individuals with know chronic disease to ensure they were being managed properly so they didn’t fall into crisis and end up in the local ER. Or…screening of asymptomatic individuals for unrecognized disease so they could start treatment via of course big pharma. They would refer to lifestyle choices being 40% or more of the problem but really didn’t speak in terms of what to do about changing that as in a Chestnut educational program. All of which I continued to point out in our small group break out sessions I also kept beating the desk top stating that if we were going to get meaningful health care reform here in Oregon we need to move away from the over-reliance on all the pharmacology DRUGS! Why do I say that because we are approaching in this country nearly 4 billion prescription purchases per year that’s “B†BILLION and it is projected we will spend right at $500 billion for prescription medications by 2015 the year universal health care kicks in! All these drugs result in just about 2 million hospitalizations and 800,000+ ER visits each year due to “Adverse Drug Events†(reactions) resulting in several billons of $$ in additional cost and that is on top of the direct cost of these meds it is not sustainable. Many of these drugs don’t work as big pharma would have you believe and the side effects are misreported not reported at all. About 250,000 folks die each year to to adverse drug events and medication errors the equivalent to one 747 400 D crashing every single day! How long would the FAA allow this before grounding all 747 400 Ds??? One day, two, max yet no one is shutting down big pharma. This group was over represented by folks believing in the medical model of health care they would just have this glazed look on their faces…..but I will continue to beat on my desk until they wake up from their slumber…. Vern Saboe From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of BRIAN SEITZSent: Friday, April 22, 2011 9:11 AM Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Wellness Doctor does not mean PCP. PCP's can be wellness orientated (but I don't know any who are), but most of what is done under the guise of wellness is " preventive services " , i.e. the annual exam, the breast screening, the PSA, the lipid panels. Then when the findings are abnormal the person is NOT counseled on a wellness lifestyle approach, but is told to " eat healthy and exercise " , and when that ultimately " fails " they are prescribed medication. Looking at lab work with a wellness perspective or from a pathogenic perspective are different points of view. Doesn't mean that a truly ill shouldn't get focused aggressive care, but we as as society spend a lot on tests only to be told " your normal " , when maybe your not, or " your lipids are bad, you need Lipitor " when what we really need is a change in diet and lifestyle. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724vsaboe@...; drjdyson1@...CC: Oregondcs From: drscott@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:47:06 -0700Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Error! Filename not specified.Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels!Error! Filename not specified. E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...Have a great weekend,Vern RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. " He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11 -- Schneider DC PDXNo virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11

[Guest guest]

Follow-up, 83% of the elderly take at least one prescription drug daily, 75% take four, and 11% take five daily! From: Abrahamson [mailto:drscott@...] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:47 AMVern Saboe; 'Jamey Dyson'Cc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels! E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...Have a great weekend,Vern RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. " He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11

[Guest guest]

Good one.

And the side affects commonly lead to demonstrable changes in the ability to pursue behaviors that keep us well.

One side effect of statins is mild depression. It’s already hard to drag your butt to the health club. Add sore joints, and mild depression.

Honey, bring me some more of those pork rinds. Oprah is on!

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/521641_4

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:38:14 -0700

Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>

Cc: <Oregondcs >

Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

Follow-up, 83% of the elderly take at least one prescription drug daily, 75% take four, and 11% take five daily!

From: Abrahamson [mailto:drscott@...]

Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:47 AM

Vern Saboe; 'Jamey Dyson'

Cc: Oregondcs

Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

Just to take this to another step:

I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually.

Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!

And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis” complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy”.

I’m not buying “familial” anything. Prove it.

And “possible cardiomyopathy”; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing.

Take this to the legislature and your practice:

80% of Americans have a chronic illness!

55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.

Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole” symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?

Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels!

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>

Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>

Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700

Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>

Cc: <Oregondcs >

Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...

Have a great weekend,

Vern

Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors.

However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything.

This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches.

With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage.

I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound!

As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health.

So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more.

A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world.

You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time.

If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver.

Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system!

Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy!

That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think?

Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWP

Doctor of Chiropractic (DC)

Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)

Advanced Chiropractic - a licensed

Eat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center

1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304

Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444

www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com>

On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote:

Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc.

He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever.

He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. "

He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day!

I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman??

Vern Saboe

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[Guest guest]

Vern,

I misspoke. I meant, are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done screening lab work on him?!!!

And you chose a vague and rare disease that most primary care MD’s miss to prove that the wellness model is insufficient.

Again, You are Kill-Ling-Me!

http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/hemochromatosis/.

You said, “if we can expedite the bodies cleaning up or addressing the organ/system dysfunction(s) via non-toxic natural remedies that will relieve that patient’s symptoms faster getting them feeling much better while at the same time instructing them on the why and how to make those lifestyle changes doesn’t that sound reasonable?“

Only if you want to practice allopathic care with natural substances, you Birkenstock wearing, patchouli oil smelling, natural healer person!

(Saw you at the Country Fair last summer!)

If you focus on diseases and treatment, you are going to lose all interest in wellness care. It happened to the osteopaths; it’s human nature.

I’m getting bored just talking about it.

Your commentary about wellness care sounds exactly like the MD’s who tell their patients, sure, you can get adjusted (pat on the head) but for real health care, come here. Go ahead wellness docs, give out some sheets with exercises and stretches and diet recommendations; you can even have little wellness classes on making smoothies, but if the patient gets symptoms, I’m here to do lab work, and proper diagnosis.

(But puh-lease! Lifestyle management...snore.)

Except, wait a minute!

Millions dying of plague in the cities of Europe. Who will save us??? We need a magic bullet!

Turns out that all of the major advances in disease eradication and trauma control came from public health measures [except penicillin].

Boring.

Public health and wellness aren’t exciting.

Tuesdays at 7 p.m. See Young as Dr. Welby, PhD, as his crack team of public health experts find and address trends in water sanitation, food refrigeration, and sewage treatment.

What’s in the test tube Dr. Welby?

How the heck should I know?

I’m an actor you dope!

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:16:28 -0700

Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>

Cc: <Oregondcs >

Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

CBC would have been of no help though he had elevated hemoglobin, hematocrit his sed rate was normal his white cells were within normal “clinical” range but elevated as per the “homeostatic” range and as such would have not given the medics a clue….no signs of kidney dysfunction…btw…..as per lifestyle changes being the only answer you yourself y have admitted that not all patients are willing to make those changes, some will, many will not, and many many will do something in between what you suggest and what they are willing to do that shades of grey deal again.   Also, if we can expedite the bodies cleaning up or addressing the organ/system dysfunction(s) via non-toxic natural remedies that will relieve that patient’s symptoms faster getting them feeling much better while at the same time instructing them on the why and how to make those lifestyle changes doesn’t that sound reasonable?

Vern

From: Abrahamson [mailto:drscott@...]

Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:47 AM

Vern Saboe; 'Jamey Dyson'

Cc: Oregondcs

Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

Just to take this to another step:

I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually.

Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!

And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis” complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy”.

I’m not buying “familial” anything. Prove it.

And “possible cardiomyopathy”; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing.

Take this to the legislature and your practice:

80% of Americans have a chronic illness!

55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.

Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole” symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?

Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels!

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>

Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>

Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700

Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>

Cc: <Oregondcs >

Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...

Have a great weekend,

Vern

Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors.

However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything.

This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches.

With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage.

I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound!

As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health.

So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more.

A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world.

You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time.

If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver.

Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system!

Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy!

That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think?

Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWP

Doctor of Chiropractic (DC)

Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)

Advanced Chiropractic - a licensed

Eat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center

1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304

Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444

www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com>

On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote:

Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc.

He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever.

He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. "

He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day!

I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman??

Vern Saboe

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Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11

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[Guest guest]

I thinks dr. scott is turning into an idealistic hippie......talk about wellness and lifestyle changes!! whoa. It's about time you saw the light.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Abrahamson

Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 12:11 PM

Vern Saboe ; 'Jamey Dyson'

Cc: Oregondcs

Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"

Vern,I misspoke. I meant, are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done screening lab work on him?!!!And you chose a vague and rare disease that most primary care MD’s miss to prove that the wellness model is insufficient.Again, You are Kill-Ling-Me!http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/hemochromatosis/.You said, “if we can expedite the bodies cleaning up or addressing the organ/system dysfunction(s) via non-toxic natural remedies that will relieve that patient’s symptoms faster getting them feeling much better while at the same time instructing them on the why and how to make those lifestyle changes doesn’t that sound reasonable?“Only if you want to practice allopathic care with natural substances, you Birkenstock wearing, patchouli oil smelling, natural healer person!(Saw you at the Country Fair last summer!)If you focus on diseases and treatment, you are going to lose all interest in wellness care. It happened to the osteopaths; it’s human nature. I’m getting bored just talking about it.Your commentary about wellness care sounds exactly like the MD’s who tell their patients, sure, you can get adjusted (pat on the head) but for real health care, come here. Go ahead wellness docs, give out some sheets with exercises and stretches and diet recommendations; you can even have little wellness classes on making smoothies, but if the patient gets symptoms, I’m here to do lab work, and proper diagnosis. (But puh-lease! Lifestyle management...snore.) Except, wait a minute! Millions dying of plague in the cities of Europe. Who will save us??? We need a magic bullet!Turns out that all of the major advances in disease eradication and trauma control came from public health measures [except penicillin]. Boring. Public health and wellness aren’t exciting.Tuesdays at 7 p.m. See Young as Dr. Welby, PhD, as his crack team of public health experts find and address trends in water sanitation, food refrigeration, and sewage treatment.What’s in the test tube Dr. Welby?How the heck should I know? I’m an actor you dope! E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:16:28 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" CBC would have been of no help though he had elevated hemoglobin, hematocrit his sed rate was normal his white cells were within normal “clinical†range but elevated as per the “homeostatic†range and as such would have not given the medics a clue….no signs of kidney dysfunction…btw…..as per lifestyle changes being the only answer you yourself y have admitted that not all patients are willing to make those changes, some will, many will not, and many many will do something in between what you suggest and what they are willing to do that shades of grey deal again. Also, if we can expedite the bodies cleaning up or addressing the organ/system dysfunction(s) via non-toxic natural remedies that will relieve that patient’s symptoms faster getting them feeling much better while at the same time instructing them on the why and how to make those lifestyle changes doesn’t that sound reasonable? Vern From: Abrahamson [mailto:drscott@...] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:47 AMVern Saboe; 'Jamey Dyson'Cc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels! E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a "wellness assessment" but clearly at a different level than what "Master Chestnut" would have performed. A different level of assessing just how "well" is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete "wellness assessment" the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by "Master Cessna." Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that "black and white." I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...Have a great weekend,Vern RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of "Master Chestnut" I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using "natural remedies" rather than medicine's "big pharma" etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a "heart attack." He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an "exercise nut" since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via "Master Chestnut's" words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe

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Well the statins are generating a whole generation (500,000+ individuals each year) of congestive heart failure folks because the statins poison a key enzyme HMG-CoA cause a dose-related depletion of CoQ10 leading to muscle weakness in the heart which uses a lot of energy.  Cholesterol isn’t the enemy big pharma is…..Vern Saboe From: Abrahamson [mailto:drscott@...] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 10:59 AMVern Saboe; 'Jamey Dyson'Cc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Good one.And the side affects commonly lead to demonstrable changes in the ability to pursue behaviors that keep us well.One side effect of statins is mild depression. It’s already hard to drag your butt to the health club. Add sore joints, and mild depression.Honey, bring me some more of those pork rinds. Oprah is on!http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/521641_4 E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:38:14 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Follow-up, 83% of the elderly take at least one prescription drug daily, 75% take four, and 11% take five daily! From: Abrahamson [mailto:drscott@...] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:47 AMVern Saboe; 'Jamey Dyson'Cc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels! E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...Have a great weekend,Vern RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. " He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11

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Ok, now your scaring me y….re-read my posts slowly….very, very slowly……Vern From: Abrahamson [mailto:drscott@...] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 12:12 PMVern Saboe; 'Jamey Dyson'Cc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Vern,I misspoke. I meant, are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done screening lab work on him?!!!And you chose a vague and rare disease that most primary care MD’s miss to prove that the wellness model is insufficient.Again, You are Kill-Ling-Me!http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/hemochromatosis/.You said, “if we can expedite the bodies cleaning up or addressing the organ/system dysfunction(s) via non-toxic natural remedies that will relieve that patient’s symptoms faster getting them feeling much better while at the same time instructing them on the why and how to make those lifestyle changes doesn’t that sound reasonable?“Only if you want to practice allopathic care with natural substances, you Birkenstock wearing, patchouli oil smelling, natural healer person!(Saw you at the Country Fair last summer!)If you focus on diseases and treatment, you are going to lose all interest in wellness care. It happened to the osteopaths; it’s human nature. I’m getting bored just talking about it.Your commentary about wellness care sounds exactly like the MD’s who tell their patients, sure, you can get adjusted (pat on the head) but for real health care, come here. Go ahead wellness docs, give out some sheets with exercises and stretches and diet recommendations; you can even have little wellness classes on making smoothies, but if the patient gets symptoms, I’m here to do lab work, and proper diagnosis. (But puh-lease! Lifestyle management...snore.) Except, wait a minute! Millions dying of plague in the cities of Europe. Who will save us??? We need a magic bullet!Turns out that all of the major advances in disease eradication and trauma control came from public health measures [except penicillin]. Boring. Public health and wellness aren’t exciting.Tuesdays at 7 p.m. See Young as Dr. Welby, PhD, as his crack team of public health experts find and address trends in water sanitation, food refrigeration, and sewage treatment.What’s in the test tube Dr. Welby?How the heck should I know? I’m an actor you dope! E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:16:28 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " CBC would have been of no help though he had elevated hemoglobin, hematocrit his sed rate was normal his white cells were within normal “clinical†range but elevated as per the “homeostatic†range and as such would have not given the medics a clue….no signs of kidney dysfunction…btw…..as per lifestyle changes being the only answer you yourself y have admitted that not all patients are willing to make those changes, some will, many will not, and many many will do something in between what you suggest and what they are willing to do that shades of grey deal again. Also, if we can expedite the bodies cleaning up or addressing the organ/system dysfunction(s) via non-toxic natural remedies that will relieve that patient’s symptoms faster getting them feeling much better while at the same time instructing them on the why and how to make those lifestyle changes doesn’t that sound reasonable? Vern From: Abrahamson [mailto:drscott@...] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:47 AMVern Saboe; 'Jamey Dyson'Cc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Just to take this to another step:I’m not used to being a primary care doctor but I would run some simple screening lab work annually. Are you telling me that this guy has been in the medical system for 47 years and they haven’t done a CBC on him?!!!And belay that “My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathyâ€.I’m not buying “familial†anything. Prove it.And “possible cardiomyopathyâ€; why didn’t you include possible kidney failure? I know, you spend time in Salem where cuts in spending immediately lead to old ladies freezing on a park bench wrapped in newspapers, but most people don’t have genetic diseases easily ruled out by lab testing. Take this to the legislature and your practice:80% of Americans have a chronic illness!55% of Americans have 2 chronic illnesses.Can we all agree that crisi care “Whack a Mole†symptom management is not going to change these illnesses?Lifestyle changing is the only answer and Dr. Medlin is right; it’s the work of angels! E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Reply-Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:15:11 -0700 Abrahamson <drscott@...>, 'Jamey Dyson' <drjdyson1@...>Cc: <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...Have a great weekend,Vern RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " Thanks Jamey, , and Sunny…and others. Jamey I need to educate myself to the “Innate Lifestyle Programâ€â€¦.sounds like something that would improvement my education of patients relative to them making positive lifestyle changes…. In the 2-year internal disorders program I took with Dr. Mike Cessna we learned what he called his “Wellness Panel†a battery of blood lab and UA testing to look at every major system and organ in the body to determine the current health or level of “wellness†of that person and to rule out early brewing and frank pathology. This testing helped us to determine what organs and systems were in early subclinical trouble early as in prior to symptoms with the notion of treating these aggressively with evidence based “natural†substances so they didn’t fall into clinical symptomatic trouble and onto “big pharmaâ€â€¦all the while we would also instruct on the why and the how as per making positive lifestyle changes….I admit I focused more on the diet and exercise and not enough on the mental (Think Well) aspects which is why I love Sears stuff and wish to learn from him. The “wellness screen†includes the basic smac-26 chemistries but includes serum magnesium and C02 for lung function and in addition to serum iron, iron binding capacity, Iron saturation, serum ferritin. It includes the usual lipid panel and we calculate the cardiovascular risk. It includes a complete blood count with differential, but in addition to a standard sed rate CRP as well (C-reactive protein), it includes a thyroid panel, urinalysis, and lastly blood typing as we were instructed to the work (One Man’s Meat) that blood typing was useful to determine if a patient should consume red meat, dairy etc. The old grade school friend that I’m talking about had elevated liver enzyme findings, elevated cholesterol (240), elevated triglycerides (289), elevated LDLs, depressed HDLs, elevated CRP, elevated serum iron, and a ferritin that was off the charts 1532! Remember he came in with back pain (T/L, and L/S areas). Elevated ferritin such as this is one of Dr. Cessna’s “four ominous signs†ominous as in brewing systemic pathology somewhere in the body and an elevated CRP is not a good deal as well…. My diagnosis “hemochromatosis†complicated by familial hyperlipidemia and possible cardiomyopathy……this is very likely what his father died from and it would be more appropriate to say his dad likely died of cardiac failure than a “heart attack.†I referred him to his MD PCP with a comprehensive note suggesting a liver biopsy to confirm, which it did and he started his phlebotomies combined with restricting iron rich foods and of course there are some iron binding nutrients…..but, diet, exercise, and thinking well (lifestyle changes) would not have saved him. The good news is that his resting ECG which I performed was “normal.†I believe it is safe to say that it is at least probable that I saved this old school bud from an early exit as 30% to 40% of untreated, unrecognized hemochromatosis folks die from heart failure due to the accumulation of iron in the myocardium which just becomes “stiff.†My point? As first contact, portal of entry chiropractic physicians it is imperative that we correlatively and differentially diagnose especially considering our focus on neuromusculoskeletal complaints. Many life threatening diseases can masquerade as simple “backache†and we must have at least the capacity to recognize the red flags which can be harbingers to frank pathology. In addition treating early subclinical (so they don’t fall into pathology) organ and system dysfunction (not simply symptoms) with natural substances that do not have the toxicity of the synthetic drugs while educating our patients on why and how to make positive lifestyle changes can co-exist and makes perfect sense. …or in the words of Vasquez DC, ND, DO “The art of co-creating wellness while effectively managing common health disorders.†Vern Saboe From: Jamey Dyson [mailto:drjdyson1@...] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:10 AMVern SaboeCc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? " First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. " He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11 No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3590 - Release Date: 04/22/11

[Guest guest]

I read through some of Dr. Chestnut's comments on hemochromatosis. I would disagree his examples represent an absolute "genetic inability". Making his point even more exceedingly rare.From his website:"The only exceptions to this, and they are EXCEEDINGLY RARE, are those with a genetic inability to biochemically digest, absorb, or manufacture a specific nutrient or enzyme. Examples would be hemochromatosis (iron metabolism disorder), Lysosomal Storage Disorders (enzyme disorders that often affect fat metabolism – Gaucher Disease is the most common which is a deficiency of the enzyme glucocerebrosidase), Phenylketonuria [PKU] (the inability to break down the amino acid phenylalanine due to defective gene responsible for production of the enzyme phenylalanine hydroxylase) and Tay-Sachs Disease (lack of enzyme Hexosaminidase A)."I disagree to an extent with this above statement by Dr. Chestnut.- (ie. vitamin-D and type I diabetes link, hemochromatosis, etc)My step dad was diagnosed with hemochromatosis and had to go in for blood draws for nearly 15 years as his iron levels would always continue to climb back up. I learned about www.deflame.com (Dr. Seaman was one of my professors at Palmer) and www.thepaleodiet.com (Dr. Cordain) and, while not my attempt, his hemochromatosis cleared after being on the diet and other life changes for several months. When he went in for his blood draws to "siphon" off the extra iron they turned him away and they told him his levels were fine. After several months of repeatedly being turned away he went to his prescribing physician.My step dad had BP meds for 25 years, OSAS with CPAP for 20 years and always overweight. So, we put him on the anti-inflammatory diet (paleo diet), exercise and supplements (basically a native/paleo lifestyle) and all his chronic diseases (symptoms of poor health) cleared. We are in the final stages of publication for a case study. Best part, his previous dr. treating his hemochromatosis told him he must have been "mis-diagnosed" because things like that never go away because they are genetic. Poor health (largely coming from individual choices) gets passed several generations- Pottengers cats, Weston Price, etc.To me, this is an excellent example of a chiropractor acting as a PCP while managing and effectively treating a multitude of conditions without drugs or surgery- simple treatment- diet, exercise, supplements and a dose of chiropractic guidance in self healing. These are all of his conditions that have completely "regressed" since lifestyle changes: 1) hemochromatosis 2) hypertension 3) Metabolic syndrome 4) OSAS 5) Obesity 6) Hypercholesterolemia 7) Decreased libido8) Chronic fatigue9) Depression10) Gout11) Poor coordination12) Elevated hs-CRP13) I'm sure there are more if I asked him.Thaddeus Gala DC Complete Care Chiropractic & Massage 21885 Hwy 62PO Box 866 Shady Cove, OR 97539 (541) 878-HEALTH (4325) (541) 830-HEALTH (4325) (541) 941-2409 CellCC: drscott@...; Oregondcs To: vsaboe@...From: drjdyson1@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:29:38 -0700Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Dr. Chestnut mentions hemochromatosis and other genetic problems in his recent blog about Species Specific & Species Wide Nutrition.Check it out : http://www.wellnessandprevention.com/index.cfm/2011/4/21/Species-Wide-and-Species-Specific-The-Science-and-Paradigm-of-Wellness--Prevention-NutritionI'm sure if he was presented with how to go about creating a DC PCP program, some type of screening for these rare issues would be addressed. His current program and recommendations, in my opinion, are designed for practicing DCs to implement wellness lifestyle programs into their current practice, not necessarily to become a PCP.Jamey D.On Apr 21, 2011, at 9:15 PM, Vern Saboe wrote:Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a "wellness assessment" but clearly at a different level than what "Master Chestnut" would have performed. A different level of assessing just how "well" is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete "wellness assessment" the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by "Master Cessna." Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that "black and white." I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients... Have a great weekend, Vern Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW ◠Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 ◠Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of "Master Chestnut" I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using "natural remedies" rather than medicine's "big pharma" etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a "heart attack." He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an "exercise nut" since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via "Master Chestnut's" words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the thoughtful insights, Thad.

Are you sure that you’re not blurring the distinction between having a disease and how it is being controlled.

My step-daughter has type 1 diabetes.

When she exercises daily and eats carefully, her insulin needs diminish and her A1C hemoglobin is excellent.

When she gets lazy, things fall apart.

Either way, she still fails to make her own insulin.

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: Thaddeus Gala <thaddeusgala@...>

Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 16:06:06 -0400

Jamey Dyson <drjdyson1@...>, Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>

Cc: Abrahamson <drscott@...>, < >

Subject: RE: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

I read through some of Dr. Chestnut's comments on hemochromatosis. I would disagree his examples represent an absolute " genetic inability " . Making his point even more exceedingly rare.

From his website:

" The only exceptions to this, and they are EXCEEDINGLY RARE, are those with a genetic inability to biochemically digest, absorb, or manufacture a specific nutrient or enzyme. Examples would be hemochromatosis (iron metabolism disorder), Lysosomal Storage Disorders (enzyme disorders that often affect fat metabolism – Gaucher Disease is the most common which is a deficiency of the enzyme glucocerebrosidase), Phenylketonuria [PKU] (the inability to break down the amino acid phenylalanine due to defective gene responsible for production of the enzyme phenylalanine hydroxylase) and Tay-Sachs Disease (lack of enzyme Hexosaminidase A). "

I disagree to an extent with this above statement by Dr. Chestnut.- (ie. vitamin-D and type I diabetes link, hemochromatosis, etc)

My step dad was diagnosed with hemochromatosis and had to go in for blood draws for nearly 15 years as his iron levels would always continue to climb back up. I learned about www.deflame.com (Dr. Seaman was one of my professors at Palmer) and www.thepaleodiet.com (Dr. Cordain) and, while not my attempt, his hemochromatosis cleared after being on the diet and other life changes for several months.

When he went in for his blood draws to " siphon " off the extra iron they turned him away and they told him his levels were fine. After several months of repeatedly being turned away he went to his prescribing physician.

My step dad had BP meds for 25 years, OSAS with CPAP for 20 years and always overweight. So, we put him on the anti-inflammatory diet (paleo diet), exercise and supplements (basically a native/paleo lifestyle) and all his chronic diseases (symptoms of poor health) cleared. We are in the final stages of publication for a case study.

Best part, his previous dr. treating his hemochromatosis told him he must have been " mis-diagnosed " because things like that never go away because they are genetic.

Poor health (largely coming from individual choices) gets passed several generations- Pottengers cats, Weston Price, etc.

To me, this is an excellent example of a chiropractor acting as a PCP while managing and effectively treating a multitude of conditions without drugs or surgery- simple treatment- diet, exercise, supplements and a dose of chiropractic guidance in self healing.

These are all of his conditions that have completely " regressed " since lifestyle changes:

1) hemochromatosis

2) hypertension

3) Metabolic syndrome

4) OSAS

5) Obesity

6) Hypercholesterolemia

7) Decreased libido

8) Chronic fatigue

9) Depression

10) Gout

11) Poor coordination

12) Elevated hs-CRP

13) I'm sure there are more if I asked him.

Thaddeus Gala DC <http://completecarechiropractic.org/custom_content/c_40500_meet_the_doctor.html>

Complete Care Chiropractic & Massage <http://completecarechiropractic.org/blog/blog.html>

21885 Hwy 62

PO Box 866

Shady Cove, OR 97539

(541) 878-HEALTH (4325)

(541) 830-HEALTH (4325)

(541) 941-2409 Cell

CC: drscott@...; Oregondcs

vsaboe@...

From: drjdyson1@...

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:29:38 -0700

Subject: Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

Dr. Chestnut mentions hemochromatosis and other genetic problems in his recent blog about Species Specific & Species Wide Nutrition.

Check it out : http://www.wellnessandprevention.com/index.cfm/2011/4/21/Species-Wide-and-Species-Specific-The-Science-and-Paradigm-of-Wellness--Prevention-Nutrition

I'm sure if he was presented with how to go about creating a DC PCP program, some type of screening for these rare issues would be addressed. His current program and recommendations, in my opinion, are designed for practicing DCs to implement wellness lifestyle programs into their current practice, not necessarily to become a PCP.

Jamey D.

On Apr 21, 2011, at 9:15 PM, Vern Saboe wrote:

Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a " wellness assessment " but clearly at a different level than what " Master Chestnut " would have performed. A different level of assessing just how " well " is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete " wellness assessment " the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by " Master Cessna. " Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that " black and white. " I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients...

Have a great weekend,

Vern

Re: " DCs as Primary Care Providers? "

First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors.

However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything.

This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches.

With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage.

I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound!

As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health.

So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more.

A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world.

You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time.

If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver.

Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system!

Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy!

That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think?

Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWP

Doctor of Chiropractic (DC)

Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)

Advanced Chiropractic - a licensed

Eat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center

1295 Wallace Rd NW â— Salem, OR 97304

Phone 503-361-3949 â— Fax 503-763-6444

www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com>

On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote:

Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of " Master Chestnut " I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using " natural remedies " rather than medicine's " big pharma " etc., etc.

He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever.

He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a " heart attack. "

He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an " exercise nut " since she works out daily if not twice a day!

I'm curious considering all you know via " Master Chestnut's " words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman??

Vern Saboe

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com>

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[Guest guest]

,Thanks for the input-Blurring the lines- quite possible. I take this approach with my patients- Our genetic make up governs what we will express (cancer, heart disease) when we do not do the right things (including subsequent generation consequences, alcohol fetal syndrome, neural tube defects, etc)- For your daughter it may have been prevented if you and her mother had proper levels of vitamin D, EPA/DHA, exercise, ate organic, etc. so her genes would never have been expressed/repressed improperly during her development. Maybe. Of course no way to know for sure other than looking at percentages in the research and making a best guess or checking her C-peptide, pancreatic biopsy, etc. after rigorous lifestyle changes.My question/statement would be, Aren't we all controlling disease every moment of every day? Only when the body fails to control the disease do we express a problem, heart disease, hemochromatosis, cancer, diabetes (including type I in certain cases)I agree there are limitations to matter and for your daughter, regardless of lifestyle choices & experiences, may not be able to reverse what she has. I would not argue that conditions such as situs inversus and Down syndrome can be reversed in the individual by the eat/move/think well approach. But, maybe if the parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. had experienced a healthier lifestyle such conditions could also have been prevented or experienced a delayed onset. Overall, our body is capable of amazing regeneration if given the right tools, which as chiropractors we have the luxury and pleasure of experiencing many times over.... every day.Have a great week and save some lives~!Thaddeus Gala DC Complete Care Chiropractic & Massage 21885 Hwy 62PO Box 866 Shady Cove, OR 97539 (541) 878-HEALTH (4325) (541) 830-HEALTH (4325) (541) 941-2409 CellDate: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 16:15:31 -0700Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"From: drscott@...To: thaddeusgala@...; drjdyson1@...; vsaboe@...CC: Message bodyThanks for the thoughtful insights, Thad.Are you sure that you’re not blurring the distinction between having a disease and how it is being controlled.My step-daughter has type 1 diabetes. When she exercises daily and eats carefully, her insulin needs diminish and her A1C hemoglobin is excellent.When she gets lazy, things fall apart. Either way, she still fails to make her own insulin. E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.comFrom: Thaddeus Gala <thaddeusgala@...>Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 16:06:06 -0400Jamey Dyson <drjdyson1@...>, Vern Saboe <vsaboe@...>Cc: Abrahamson <drscott@...>, < >Subject: RE: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"I read through some of Dr. Chestnut's comments on hemochromatosis. I would disagree his examples represent an absolute "genetic inability". Making his point even more exceedingly rare.From his website:"The only exceptions to this, and they are EXCEEDINGLY RARE, are those with a genetic inability to biochemically digest, absorb, or manufacture a specific nutrient or enzyme. Examples would be hemochromatosis (iron metabolism disorder), Lysosomal Storage Disorders (enzyme disorders that often affect fat metabolism – Gaucher Disease is the most common which is a deficiency of the enzyme glucocerebrosidase), Phenylketonuria [PKU] (the inability to break down the amino acid phenylalanine due to defective gene responsible for production of the enzyme phenylalanine hydroxylase) and Tay-Sachs Disease (lack of enzyme Hexosaminidase A)."I disagree to an extent with this above statement by Dr. Chestnut.- (ie. vitamin-D and type I diabetes link, hemochromatosis, etc)My step dad was diagnosed with hemochromatosis and had to go in for blood draws for nearly 15 years as his iron levels would always continue to climb back up. I learned about www.deflame.com (Dr. Seaman was one of my professors at Palmer) and www.thepaleodiet.com (Dr. Cordain) and, while not my attempt, his hemochromatosis cleared after being on the diet and other life changes for several months. When he went in for his blood draws to "siphon" off the extra iron they turned him away and they told him his levels were fine. After several months of repeatedly being turned away he went to his prescribing physician.My step dad had BP meds for 25 years, OSAS with CPAP for 20 years and always overweight. So, we put him on the anti-inflammatory diet (paleo diet), exercise and supplements (basically a native/paleo lifestyle) and all his chronic diseases (symptoms of poor health) cleared. We are in the final stages of publication for a case study. Best part, his previous dr. treating his hemochromatosis told him he must have been "mis-diagnosed" because things like that never go away because they are genetic. Poor health (largely coming from individual choices) gets passed several generations- Pottengers cats, Weston Price, etc.To me, this is an excellent example of a chiropractor acting as a PCP while managing and effectively treating a multitude of conditions without drugs or surgery- simple treatment- diet, exercise, supplements and a dose of chiropractic guidance in self healing. These are all of his conditions that have completely "regressed" since lifestyle changes: 1) hemochromatosis 2) hypertension 3) Metabolic syndrome 4) OSAS 5) Obesity 6) Hypercholesterolemia 7) Decreased libido8) Chronic fatigue9) Depression10) Gout11) Poor coordination12) Elevated hs-CRP13) I'm sure there are more if I asked him.Thaddeus Gala DC <http://completecarechiropractic.org/custom_content/c_40500_meet_the_doctor.html> Complete Care Chiropractic & Massage <http://completecarechiropractic.org/blog/blog.html> 21885 Hwy 62PO Box 866 Shady Cove, OR 97539 (541) 878-HEALTH (4325) (541) 830-HEALTH (4325) (541) 941-2409 CellCC: drscott@...; Oregondcs To: vsaboe@...From: drjdyson1@...Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:29:38 -0700Subject: Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?" Dr. Chestnut mentions hemochromatosis and other genetic problems in his recent blog about Species Specific & Species Wide Nutrition.Check it out : http://www.wellnessandprevention.com/index.cfm/2011/4/21/Species-Wide-and-Species-Specific-The-Science-and-Paradigm-of-Wellness--Prevention-NutritionI'm sure if he was presented with how to go about creating a DC PCP program, some type of screening for these rare issues would be addressed. His current program and recommendations, in my opinion, are designed for practicing DCs to implement wellness lifestyle programs into their current practice, not necessarily to become a PCP.Jamey D.On Apr 21, 2011, at 9:15 PM, Vern Saboe wrote:Not at all y...what I performed as I said in my original email was in fact a "wellness assessment" but clearly at a different level than what "Master Chestnut" would have performed. A different level of assessing just how "well" is this person a comprehensive assessment of their current state of health or level of wellness but with the added benefit of ruling out or in this case ruling in unrecongized pathology which very likely saved him from early heart failure. I frist did a comprehesive review (questions) of systems via a questionair from Dr. Cessna and interview and because of those findings recommended a complete "wellness assessment" the blood chemistries I described that look at every organ and system as taught by "Master Cessna." Not everyone wishes to pay for that assessment and if this fellow would have declined I would never had made the diagnosis such is life and its many shades of grey...it was simply a reflection of a different type of training and I used this case to show that things are not that "black and white." I agree with the majority of what Dr. Chestnut offers but I don't agree with all of what he has to offer as there is more...there will always be more. Kinda' like improving your clinical skills as a clinician doing so isn't a destination you never quite arrive you can always improve, learn more, and become better for your patients... Have a great weekend, Vern Re: "DCs as Primary Care Providers?"First of all I would recognized that this man is a product of his environment and choices. He has lived for a number of years in a toxic and deficient environment and has made many small toxic and deficient choices day-in and day-out. He is the way he is because of these toxic-deficient stressors. However, he is gifted with an amazingly intelligent internal regulatory system (innate intelligence) that is doing it's best to adapt to the stress that he has been putting his body and mind through over the years. That intelligence is just sitting there waiting for some of the toxicity and deficiency to be removed so that it can shift back to normal healthy function. This man is programmed for health! The back pain, high cholesterol, and weight gain are all signs that his internal regulatory system has been stressed for a long time. He is now suffering from increased stress hormones, insulin resistance, inflammation, reduced sex hormone binding globulin, and reduced immunity. There are no emergency, acute life-threatening things going on with this man - it's all chronic - no need to send him to an MD for anything. This is the defining difference between a DC PCP and an MD PCP. We believe the body is strong, intelligent, self-healing, perfectly self-regulating. They believe the body is weak, stupid, and prone to random internal regulatory dysfunction. 2 different beliefs, 2 different approaches. With this understanding, truly helping this man can ONLY be done be removing the toxicity and deficiency in his life. To be successful, it needs to happen gradually, it needs to be easy, it needs to change his beliefs about his choices, it needs to be about him taking responsibility. He needs to live with enough purity and sufficiency for a long enough period of time to allow his internal regulatory system to heal and repair from all the years of damage. I would put him on the Innate Lifestyle Program, which is an evidence-based applied education program that teaches a person what to change, why to change, how to change, and most importantly - how to get themselves to change. On this program, he would have 5 wellness evaluations over a 12 month period measuring current level of health, current risk of chronic illness, and current level of functional health and vitality. On a daily basis, he would record his behaviors for a 12 month period. He would attend lifestyle education workshops. He would be connected with others who are going through the same process of changing their life. The program helps a person remove the toxicity and deficiency in their life. Their internal regulatory system, relieved from the stress, then shifts toward healthier function. Simple, yet elegantly powerful and profound! As a DC PCP, I would also put him on a program of spinal and extremity adjusting and movement therapy to improve spinal motion and alignment, increase proprioceptive input to the CNS, reduce nocioceptive input to the CNS, and re-establish better spinothalamic tract function. Most likely 2 visits per week for 4-12 weeks, then reduce care as he improves with subjective and objective measures with the goal being supportive care every 2-4 weeks. He would be taught spinal hygiene exercises and sitting, sleeping, standing ergonomics - this gives him the tools to take care of himself to a great degree. However, because of all the sitting that modern humans are doing, regular supportive chiropractic care is now essential for maintaining spinal health. So, if we did the lifestyle program and chiropractic care over a 12 month period, you would see this man gradually become healthier. He would continue improving his lifestyle after the 12 months because he knows that is the only viable answer. He would be a role model for his kids and grandkids. He would feel like he has more control of his health. He would be demanding healthier products with his purchasing dollars. He would not be a burden as he gets older, but an asset. He would cost the system less, not more. A whole chiropractic and lifestyle program like this would cost approximately $3,000-$5,000 for the first year. Then $1,000-$2,000 thereafter. This type of care would improve almost all of the chronic illness that people would come in with. Instead of healthcare getting more expensive with time, it gets less expensive as a person learns how to live healthy in our modern world. You could also through in blood work as something a DC PCP could do to document risk factors before, during, and after lifestyle/chiropractic intervention. This would add to the cost, however. It would also be cool to document changes in brain function over time with some type of function brain scanning, but it is probably cost-prohibitive at this time. If he did the standard MD PCP route, he would most likely be put on a statin for high cholesterol and told he needs to lose some weight. He might get a referral to a physical therapist for the back pain where he will have 6 visits over 3 weeks and learn some home exercises, which he most likely won't do, based on his aversion to exercise in general. After 12 months, even though his cholesterol has been lowered, he will be getting sicker even faster, especially from the effects of the statins which are down-regulating the production of cholesterol in the liver. Cholesterol is essential for the internal regulatory system of his body to function properly when it is stressed out. Cholesterol is the building block for more stress hormones and it is important for healing damaged tissue in his body. The statin is basically over-riding the internal regulatory system which leads to more problems. It is another stressor to the system! Every year he would cost the system more money, he would feel and function worse, he would most likely develop type 2 diabetes, he would get on more medications every year, he would most likely die between 60 and 75 of some type of chronic disease. We lose a husband, a father, a grandfather, a friend, and an important member of our community. (The government also loses a tax payor). However, sadly with his passing, it almost seems like a relief for every everyone because his quality of life was so low at that point. Even the government feels relieved because it was paying out more in medical bills than they were collecting from taxes! Yikes - conspiracy theorist feeding frenzy! That would be my approach in a nutshell. What do you think? Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic - a licensedEat Well Move Well Think Well ® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW ◠Salem, OR 97304Phone 503-361-3949 ◠Fax 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> <http://www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com> On Apr 19, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Vern Saboe wrote: Ok so Drs. Jamey D. and A., disciples of "Master Chestnut" I've been busy in Salem but I've got a question for you both: This is a question relative to a real case/patient of mine...I want to know how you would manage this fellow considering our recent discussion of DCs as PCPs and using "natural remedies" rather than medicine's "big pharma" etc., etc. He is a 47 year old male who's main complaint and reason for presenting in my office is back pain thoracolumbar junction/transitional area and the lumbosacral junction. The back pain has been giving him trouble for one or two years not real bad ranging from a 3-5 on a scale of 0 = no pain, 10 worse pain ever. He denies any significant traumatic event. However he tells me that he knows he has high cholesterol because his doctor of 10 years told him he did and his father died in his early 40's due to a "heart attack." He is 30 pounds over weight, knows he has a lousy diet though he has improved it somewhat, should exercise more which is actually rarely done and he views his wife as an "exercise nut" since she works out daily if not twice a day! I'm curious considering all you know via "Master Chestnut's" words of incredible wisdom how would you guys manage this gentleman?? Vern Saboe No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3585 - Release Date: 04/20/11