17 year old female with digestive issues

[Guest guest]

Along these lines, here is a email I got last week. Re-printed with permission and names removed:: I can’t thank you enough for the referenced book. My wife and I started the program in the Six Week Cure for the Middle Aged Middle in January. Two months later I have lost 25 pounds and my wife has lost 15. The pounds aren’t as important as the fact we no longer need the medications for our diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol. Our blood sugars quit spiking and stay in the range of 80 to 120. Our blood pressure stays in the range of 120/70 constantly. I had a check on my cholesterol and the level was 190. The triglycerides were 140. The HDL (good kind) was 38 and

the LDL was 98. My A1C was 6.5 versus 7.5 the last time I tested. All we had to do was basically change the way we eat and change the way we see fats and meats and carbohydrates. So thank you once again for suggesting that I read the book. Another 75 pounds and I will be at my ideal weight. I struggled for so long with my weight and this program seems to be the answer!Moderation and grains would have never done what the paleo-diet did for this couple. Best, Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland OR 97211 From: Jamey Dyson <drjdyson1@...>ph Medlin <spinetree@...>Cc: DC Listserve < >Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011 9:51:04 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issuesWhat are you trying to say about Chestnut and cavemen?....I beg to differ. I think the science, logic and biology is very clear. Eating whole grains as part of a "balanced diet" is the wrong approach for creating

optimal human health. We are humans, not canaries. Sure there are many nutritionists and doctors who will disagree with that, but it doesn't make them right. They've just learned the "balanced diet" approach and are asking different questions. Who says grains should be part of a healthy balanced diet? Food pyramid? Food science experts? Grain lobbies?I would love for someone to explain to me the all wonderful, beneficial nutrients that we are designed to get from grains. Grains are calorically high and nutritionally weak - sure they can keep a person alive with calories, but they do not encourage a person's physiology to thrive. Just because grains could feed the masses and keep people alive long enough to reproduce so that our population exploded as a species, does not mean it is good food for humans. Grains are 3rd world foods, starvation foods,

last-resort foods. Grains contain phytates, lectins, gluten, and gliadin which wreak havoc on our digestive tracts and immune system. Please convince me otherwise.If you were out living in the wild, without agriculture and civilization, what would you eat to not only survive, but thrive?The whole point of this is patient outcomes. Which diet creates healthier people? With what I know about processed AND whole grains, I can't ethically recommend that my patients should eat them. We will just have to agree to disagree. I'll keep following the research by the evolutionary biology nutrition experts such as Eaton, Cordain, DeVany, and Wolf. That's what makes sense to me and that is what appears to properly meet our genetic requirements for healthy cell function to the greatest degree.Have a great weekend everyone... and keep the grains to a

minimum!Jamey Dyson, D.C.On Mar 17, 2011, at 1:25 PM, ph Medlin wrote:Oh boy, here we go with the Chestnut Cavemen again.... I think we can all agree that eating Refined Grains is not healthy and in LARGE amounts can contribute to the diseases you mention. However, Whole Grain consumption especially in moderation accompanied by a balanced diet is in fact healthy. The science is not as cut and dry as Chestnut et al would have you think. There's a world of nutritionists out there that you can debate with if you like, and no, most

of them aren't tied into General Mills. Much of these claims are unproven or have contradictory studies which is why many people disagree. As a chiropractic physician and not a nutritionist, collectively aiming our patients toward a path of healthy balanced diet and exercise shouldn't be deemed silly or ill informed. There's not necessarily a wrong way to do this in my opinion. Vegetarians would claim that we aren't meant to eat meat. They have their studies. I prefer a balanced approach. It's not the wrong approach. ph Medlin D.C.From: Jamey DysonSent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:07 AMDC ListserveSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issuesI find this whole debate silly. Grains are not good food for humans, period. They are filled with anti-nutrients and they are low in micronutrients. Our brain size has shrunk 11% since the introduction of grains in our diet. They are the backbone of the high carb, low fat diet which has exponentially increased the rates of chronic illness in the industrial world. They are also the source of omega 6 toxicity that is one of the main causes of chronic inflammation. It seems that Mason promotes a Neolithic Diet (grains & legumes) when he writes "Eat lots of brown rice, oats, corn, buckwheat, and millet. Eat lots of beans and legumes." Sure, this is way healthier than the modern Industrial Diet, but not nearly as healthy as the Paleolithic Diet from what I can tell.Our physiology is designed to things that come from the earth in their raw form... just think of living in the wild without fire. What would you be able to eat? The fact that you have to cook or soak or sprout grains and legumes to make them less toxic and half-way digestible just

shows that they are not ideal for human consumption.Grains now make us fat and ultimately cause heart disease, cancer, and type 2 diabetes. Just like cows in a feedlot. Simply compare the health of someone on a high grain diet vs. low or no grain diet and you will easily see the difference.Anyone who is arguing that grains are okay for human consumption, either hasn't looked at the science or is just trying to defend their eating habits - they don't want to give up their yummy bread! Here's a great ABC news clip on the Paleolithic Diet and Exercise trend. http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/rethinking-meat-veggies-13034429Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWP On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Lindekugel wrote:Joe and ,Since the point seems to be that gluten sensitivity is way over-diagnosed (which is the take of most people), let's look at the conservative numbers both sides of the issue seem to agree on: 1/133 have full-blown celiac disease. (Though most experts in this area feel this is just the tip of the iceberg as regards the larger category of gluten

sensitivity)I have no idea how many patients you see per week in your clinic, but it is reasonable to imagine missing one case Per Month or at least every six months in a busy clinic. If a chiropractor has never in 10-20 years of practice tested or sent a patient for testing for some sort of gluten sensitivity, couldn't we assume that they are Under-diagnosing this condition?And if it seems that those of us who do see that this is an under-diagnosed condition are a little sensitive about the issue, it is just our personal/clinical experience of watching dozens of family members and patients get really sick and then miraculously recover with the withdrawal of gluten. I am certain that my personal experience has made me a little hypersensitive to the issue. Best to you both,Jay Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...>oregon DCs < >; BRIAN SEITZ <dcdocbrian@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 12:35:35 PMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues Get back to me when the test IS sensitive enough and we DO know. Again, my point is that this is Over diagnosed, and it's easy to see why when there is such fervor even when one simply suggests that it's over diagnosed. I love when an opposing view is deemed uneducated and assumed to have not read the literature. There are studies that refute your studies, but the point is that like you said "who knows at this point". Take a deep breath. It's not the devil, and we should be careful as chiropractic physicians in recommending life

altering diets as an experiment on a hunch. "They feel better though" you may say, well, that may or may not have to do with gluten specifically. Obviously with Celiac Disease one can be aggressive in this, but for every headache or tingling in the hands and feet coming into the office, Gluten Sensitivity is Waayayyyyyyy down the list in my concerns. You're going to have to accept that you have colleagues that are skeptical, and that this issue of gluten intolerance being mutually exclusive from celiac disease is yet unproven and contentious with a lot of money to be made. For the last time, For me, this is not an issue of whether it exists, it's about Prevalence. Allergies of all kinds can cause systemic symptoms beyond coughing, sneezing, rashes etc......but how often ph Medlin D.C.From: BRIAN SEITZSent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:43 AMoregon DCsSubject: RE: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues "Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease."Really? Come on, read the

published studies! Granted, most of what I treat are MS conditions, but the literature shows (as in examples i have posted over the last couple days) that there are many real and serious conditions affecting many different organs and systems as a result of gluten sensitivity, in patients w/o celiac disease. How common? If the test is not sensitive enough who knows at this point. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724 ; pdxchiroguy@...From: spinetree@...Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:25:32 -0700Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues It's not 100% reaction to wheat, But is 100% to gluten. I misspoke, I should have said not 100% are wheat sensitive. Where we run into difficulty is

that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease. ph Medlin D.C.From:

LindekugelSent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 9:41 AM Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues Joe,Isn't celiac disease by definition an immune reaction to wheat? Doesn't that make 100% of celiac patients sensitive or allergic to wheat?Best, Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...> ; Tyna <tyna.moore@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 8:48:35 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues Hi Tyna, No offense intended. You'll see that I said "just about any ND's office" not every. But according to you even: "I diagnose and treat gluten intolerance all day long, it is real, it is a major issue and for those of us who suffer from it, a very real problem" and "Then there is the whole gluten-autoimmune connection. Every

single day I diagnose autoimmune disease, not an exaggeration. It's an epidemic. We know that gluten fans that flame (again, in the literature). So... If you are diagnosing autoimmune disease every day, you're certainly tying gluten sensitivity into that as well on a daily basis which makes it sort of your "catch all treatment" for autoimmune disorders.Look, I'm not saying Celiac disease doesn’t exist. Far from it. I agree that it's right around 1 in a 125 people. Of those, certainly not 100% are gluten sensitive, but

have a different sensitivity. I'm also not saying that some folks don't eat too much of it. They do and would benefit and feel better by reducing the levels. My only point is I feel the fad of Gluten Sensitivity has resulted in over diagnosis. ph Medlin D.C.From: Tyna Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:04 AM Subject: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues Wow, ph, thanks for the blanket statement regarding ND's! Yes, I do find it unsuccessful at times. It's not my "catch all" treatment, just like adjusting the upper cervicals is not the only thing you offer.Even MD's agree that 1-100 to 120 people in the US have frank Celiac. I see a lot of great results clinically by fishing out which foods patient's are intolerant too, just as DC's we find their structural faults and attempt to correct them.Tyna , ND, DCLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246www.corewellnesspdx.comwww.lakeoswegochiro.comwww.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

Jamey .... then how does one explain an entire nation of Asians, growing, thriving, succeeding on rice for so many milennia? Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

CC: To: spinetree@...From: drjdyson1@...Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:51:04 -0700Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issuesWhat are you trying to say about Chestnut and cavemen?....

I beg to differ. I think the science, logic and biology is very clear. Eating whole grains as part of a "balanced diet" is the wrong approach for creating optimal human health. We are humans, not canaries. Sure there are many nutritionists and doctors who will disagree with that, but it doesn't make them right. They've just learned the "balanced diet" approach and are asking different questions. Who says grains should be part of a healthy balanced diet? Food pyramid? Food science experts? Grain lobbies?

I would love for someone to explain to me the all wonderful, beneficial nutrients that we are designed to get from grains. Grains are calorically high and nutritionally weak - sure they can keep a person alive with calories, but they do not encourage a person's physiology to thrive. Just because grains could feed the masses and keep people alive long enough to reproduce so that our population exploded as a species, does not mean it is good food for humans.

Grains are 3rd world foods, starvation foods, last-resort foods. Grains contain phytates, lectins, gluten, and gliadin which wreak havoc on our digestive tracts and immune system. Please convince me otherwise.

If you were out living in the wild, without agriculture and civilization, what would you eat to not only survive, but thrive?

The whole point of this is patient outcomes. Which diet creates healthier people? With what I know about processed AND whole grains, I can't ethically recommend that my patients should eat them. We will just have to agree to disagree. I'll keep following the research by the evolutionary biology nutrition experts such as Eaton, Cordain, DeVany, and Wolf. That's what makes sense to me and that is what appears to properly meet our genetic requirements for healthy cell function to the greatest degree.

Have a great weekend everyone... and keep the grains to a minimum!

Jamey Dyson, D.C.

On Mar 17, 2011, at 1:25 PM, ph Medlin wrote:

Oh boy, here we go with the Chestnut Cavemen again....

I think we can all agree that eating Refined Grains is not healthy and in LARGE amounts can contribute to the diseases you mention. However, Whole Grain consumption especially in moderation accompanied by a balanced diet is in fact healthy. The science is not as cut and dry as Chestnut et al would have you think. There's a world of nutritionists out there that you can debate with if you like, and no, most of them aren't tied into General Mills. Much of these claims are unproven or have contradictory studies which is why many people disagree.

As a chiropractic physician and not a nutritionist, collectively aiming our patients toward a path of healthy balanced diet and exercise shouldn't be deemed silly or ill informed. There's not necessarily a wrong way to do this in my opinion. Vegetarians would claim that we aren't meant to eat meat. They have their studies. I prefer a balanced approach. It's not the wrong approach.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Jamey Dyson

Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:07 AM

DC Listserve

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

I find this whole debate silly. Grains are not good food for humans, period. They are filled with anti-nutrients and they are low in micronutrients. Our brain size has shrunk 11% since the introduction of grains in our diet. They are the backbone of the high carb, low fat diet which has exponentially increased the rates of chronic illness in the industrial world. They are also the source of omega 6 toxicity that is one of the main causes of chronic inflammation.

It seems that Mason promotes a Neolithic Diet (grains & legumes) when he writes "Eat lots of brown rice, oats, corn, buckwheat, and millet. Eat lots of beans and legumes." Sure, this is way healthier than the modern Industrial Diet, but not nearly as healthy as the Paleolithic Diet from what I can tell.

Our physiology is designed to things that come from the earth in their raw form... just think of living in the wild without fire. What would you be able to eat? The fact that you have to cook or soak or sprout grains and legumes to make them less toxic and half-way digestible just shows that they are not ideal for human consumption.

Grains now make us fat and ultimately cause heart disease, cancer, and type 2 diabetes. Just like cows in a feedlot. Simply compare the health of someone on a high grain diet vs. low or no grain diet and you will easily see the difference.

Anyone who is arguing that grains are okay for human consumption, either hasn't looked at the science or is just trying to defend their eating habits - they don't want to give up their yummy bread!

Here's a great ABC news clip on the Paleolithic Diet and Exercise trend. http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/rethinking-meat-veggies-13034429

Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWP

On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Lindekugel wrote:

Joe and ,Since the point seems to be that gluten sensitivity is way over-diagnosed (which is the take of most people), let's look at the conservative numbers both sides of the issue seem to agree on: 1/133 have full-blown celiac disease. (Though most experts in this area feel this is just the tip of the iceberg as regards the larger category of gluten sensitivity)I have no idea how many patients you see per week in your clinic, but it is reasonable to imagine missing one case Per Month or at least every six months in a busy clinic. If a chiropractor has never in 10-20 years of practice tested or sent a patient for testing for some sort of gluten sensitivity, couldn't we assume that they are Under-diagnosing this condition?And if it seems that those of us who do see that this is an under-diagnosed condition are a little sensitive about the issue, it is just our personal/clinical experience of watching dozens of family members and patients get really sick and then miraculously recover with the withdrawal of gluten. I am certain that my personal experience has made me a little hypersensitive to the issue. Best to you both,Jay Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...>oregon DCs < >; BRIAN SEITZ <dcdocbrian@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 12:35:35 PMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Get back to me when the test IS sensitive enough and we DO know.

Again, my point is that this is Over diagnosed, and it's easy to see why when there is such fervor even when one simply suggests that it's over diagnosed. I love when an opposing view is deemed uneducated and assumed to have not read the literature. There are studies that refute your studies, but the point is that like you said "who knows at this point".

Take a deep breath. It's not the devil, and we should be careful as chiropractic physicians in recommending life altering diets as an experiment on a hunch. "They feel better though" you may say, well, that may or may not have to do with gluten specifically. Obviously with Celiac Disease one can be aggressive in this, but for every headache or tingling in the hands and feet coming into the office, Gluten Sensitivity is Waayayyyyyyy down the list in my concerns.

You're going to have to accept that you have colleagues that are skeptical, and that this issue of gluten intolerance being mutually exclusive from celiac disease is yet unproven and contentious with a lot of money to be made.

For the last time, For me, this is not an issue of whether it exists, it's about Prevalence. Allergies of all kinds can cause systemic symptoms beyond coughing, sneezing, rashes etc......but how often

ph Medlin D.C.

From: BRIAN SEITZ

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:43 AM

oregon DCs

Subject: RE: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

"Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease."

Really? Come on, read the published studies! Granted, most of what I treat are MS conditions, but the literature shows (as in examples i have posted over the last couple days) that there are many real and serious conditions affecting many different organs and systems as a result of gluten sensitivity, in patients w/o celiac disease. How common? If the test is not sensitive enough who knows at this point. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724

; pdxchiroguy@...From: spinetree@...Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:25:32 -0700Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

It's not 100% reaction to wheat, But is 100% to gluten. I misspoke, I should have said not 100% are wheat sensitive. Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Lindekugel

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 9:41 AM

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Joe,Isn't celiac disease by definition an immune reaction to wheat? Doesn't that make 100% of celiac patients sensitive or allergic to wheat?Best, Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...> ; Tyna <tyna.moore@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 8:48:35 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Hi Tyna,

No offense intended. You'll see that I said "just about any ND's office" not every. But according to you even: "I diagnose and treat gluten intolerance all day long, it is real, it is a major issue and for those of us who suffer from it, a very real problem" and "Then there is the whole gluten-autoimmune connection. Every single day I diagnose autoimmune disease, not an exaggeration. It's an epidemic. We know that gluten fans that flame (again, in the literature).

So... If you are diagnosing autoimmune disease every day, you're certainly tying gluten sensitivity into that as well on a daily basis which makes it sort of your "catch all treatment" for autoimmune disorders.

Look, I'm not saying Celiac disease doesn’t exist. Far from it. I agree that it's right around 1 in a 125 people. Of those, certainly not 100% are gluten sensitive, but have a different sensitivity.

I'm also not saying that some folks don't eat too much of it. They do and would benefit and feel better by reducing the levels. My only point is I feel the fad of Gluten Sensitivity has resulted in over diagnosis.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Tyna

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:04 AM

Subject: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Wow, ph, thanks for the blanket statement regarding ND's!

Yes, I do find it unsuccessful at times. It's not my "catch all" treatment, just like adjusting the upper cervicals is not the only thing you offer.

Even MD's agree that 1-100 to 120 people in the US have frank Celiac. I see a lot of great results clinically by fishing out which foods patient's are intolerant too, just as DC's we find their structural faults and attempt to correct them.

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

Don't be so sure!

These folks could have benefited from even the smallest of alterations in diet and exercise.

Lets also see how long they can maintain it. Obviously the diet has it's benefits and one can lose weight rapidly with it. That’s not really a contention.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Lindekugel

Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 11:09 AM

DC Listserve

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Along these lines, here is a email I got last week. Re-printed with permission and names removed:: I can’t thank you enough for the referenced book. My wife and I started the program in the Six Week Cure for the Middle Aged Middle in January. Two months later I have lost 25 pounds and my wife has lost 15. The pounds aren’t as important as the fact we no longer need the medications for our diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol. Our blood sugars quit spiking and stay in the range of 80 to 120. Our blood pressure stays in the range of 120/70 constantly. I had a check on my cholesterol and the level was 190. The triglycerides were 140. The HDL (good kind) was 38 and the LDL was 98. My A1C was 6.5 versus 7.5 the last time I tested. All we had to do was basically change the way we eat and change the way we see fats and meats and carbohydrates. So thank you once again for suggesting that I read the book. Another 75 pounds and I will be at my ideal weight. I struggled for so long with my weight and this program seems to be the answer!Moderation and grains would have never done what the paleo-diet did for this couple. Best, Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland OR 97211

From: Jamey Dyson <drjdyson1@...>ph Medlin <spinetree@...>Cc: DC Listserve < >Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011 9:51:04 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issuesWhat are you trying to say about Chestnut and cavemen?....

I beg to differ. I think the science, logic and biology is very clear. Eating whole grains as part of a "balanced diet" is the wrong approach for creating optimal human health. We are humans, not canaries. Sure there are many nutritionists and doctors who will disagree with that, but it doesn't make them right. They've just learned the "balanced diet" approach and are asking different questions. Who says grains should be part of a healthy balanced diet? Food pyramid? Food science experts? Grain lobbies?

I would love for someone to explain to me the all wonderful, beneficial nutrients that we are designed to get from grains. Grains are calorically high and nutritionally weak - sure they can keep a person alive with calories, but they do not encourage a person's physiology to thrive. Just because grains could feed the masses and keep people alive long enough to reproduce so that our population exploded as a species, does not mean it is good food for humans.

Grains are 3rd world foods, starvation foods, last-resort foods. Grains contain phytates, lectins, gluten, and gliadin which wreak havoc on our digestive tracts and immune system. Please convince me otherwise.

If you were out living in the wild, without agriculture and civilization, what would you eat to not only survive, but thrive?

The whole point of this is patient outcomes. Which diet creates healthier people? With what I know about processed AND whole grains, I can't ethically recommend that my patients should eat them. We will just have to agree to disagree. I'll keep following the research by the evolutionary biology nutrition experts such as Eaton, Cordain, DeVany, and Wolf. That's what makes sense to me and that is what appears to properly meet our genetic requirements for healthy cell function to the greatest degree.

Have a great weekend everyone... and keep the grains to a minimum!

Jamey Dyson, D.C.

On Mar 17, 2011, at 1:25 PM, ph Medlin wrote:

Oh boy, here we go with the Chestnut Cavemen again....

I think we can all agree that eating Refined Grains is not healthy and in LARGE amounts can contribute to the diseases you mention. However, Whole Grain consumption especially in moderation accompanied by a balanced diet is in fact healthy. The science is not as cut and dry as Chestnut et al would have you think. There's a world of nutritionists out there that you can debate with if you like, and no, most of them aren't tied into General Mills. Much of these claims are unproven or have contradictory studies which is why many people disagree.

As a chiropractic physician and not a nutritionist, collectively aiming our patients toward a path of healthy balanced diet and exercise shouldn't be deemed silly or ill informed. There's not necessarily a wrong way to do this in my opinion. Vegetarians would claim that we aren't meant to eat meat. They have their studies. I prefer a balanced approach. It's not the wrong approach.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Jamey Dyson

Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:07 AM

DC Listserve

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

I find this whole debate silly. Grains are not good food for humans, period. They are filled with anti-nutrients and they are low in micronutrients. Our brain size has shrunk 11% since the introduction of grains in our diet. They are the backbone of the high carb, low fat diet which has exponentially increased the rates of chronic illness in the industrial world. They are also the source of omega 6 toxicity that is one of the main causes of chronic inflammation.

It seems that Mason promotes a Neolithic Diet (grains & legumes) when he writes "Eat lots of brown rice, oats, corn, buckwheat, and millet. Eat lots of beans and legumes." Sure, this is way healthier than the modern Industrial Diet, but not nearly as healthy as the Paleolithic Diet from what I can tell.

Our physiology is designed to things that come from the earth in their raw form... just think of living in the wild without fire. What would you be able to eat? The fact that you have to cook or soak or sprout grains and legumes to make them less toxic and half-way digestible just shows that they are not ideal for human consumption.

Grains now make us fat and ultimately cause heart disease, cancer, and type 2 diabetes. Just like cows in a feedlot. Simply compare the health of someone on a high grain diet vs. low or no grain diet and you will easily see the difference.

Anyone who is arguing that grains are okay for human consumption, either hasn't looked at the science or is just trying to defend their eating habits - they don't want to give up their yummy bread!

Here's a great ABC news clip on the Paleolithic Diet and Exercise trend. http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/rethinking-meat-veggies-13034429

Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWP

On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Lindekugel wrote:

Joe and ,Since the point seems to be that gluten sensitivity is way over-diagnosed (which is the take of most people), let's look at the conservative numbers both sides of the issue seem to agree on: 1/133 have full-blown celiac disease. (Though most experts in this area feel this is just the tip of the iceberg as regards the larger category of gluten sensitivity)I have no idea how many patients you see per week in your clinic, but it is reasonable to imagine missing one case Per Month or at least every six months in a busy clinic. If a chiropractor has never in 10-20 years of practice tested or sent a patient for testing for some sort of gluten sensitivity, couldn't we assume that they are Under-diagnosing this condition?And if it seems that those of us who do see that this is an under-diagnosed condition are a little sensitive about the issue, it is just our personal/clinical experience of watching dozens of family members and patients get really sick and then miraculously recover with the withdrawal of gluten. I am certain that my personal experience has made me a little hypersensitive to the issue. Best to you both,Jay Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...>oregon DCs < >; BRIAN SEITZ <dcdocbrian@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 12:35:35 PMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Get back to me when the test IS sensitive enough and we DO know.

Again, my point is that this is Over diagnosed, and it's easy to see why when there is such fervor even when one simply suggests that it's over diagnosed. I love when an opposing view is deemed uneducated and assumed to have not read the literature. There are studies that refute your studies, but the point is that like you said "who knows at this point".

Take a deep breath. It's not the devil, and we should be careful as chiropractic physicians in recommending life altering diets as an experiment on a hunch. "They feel better though" you may say, well, that may or may not have to do with gluten specifically. Obviously with Celiac Disease one can be aggressive in this, but for every headache or tingling in the hands and feet coming into the office, Gluten Sensitivity is Waayayyyyyyy down the list in my concerns.

You're going to have to accept that you have colleagues that are skeptical, and that this issue of gluten intolerance being mutually exclusive from celiac disease is yet unproven and contentious with a lot of money to be made.

For the last time, For me, this is not an issue of whether it exists, it's about Prevalence. Allergies of all kinds can cause systemic symptoms beyond coughing, sneezing, rashes etc......but how often

ph Medlin D.C.

From: BRIAN SEITZ

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:43 AM

oregon DCs

Subject: RE: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

"Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease."

Really? Come on, read the published studies! Granted, most of what I treat are MS conditions, but the literature shows (as in examples i have posted over the last couple days) that there are many real and serious conditions affecting many different organs and systems as a result of gluten sensitivity, in patients w/o celiac disease. How common? If the test is not sensitive enough who knows at this point. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724

; pdxchiroguy@...From: spinetree@...Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:25:32 -0700Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

It's not 100% reaction to wheat, But is 100% to gluten. I misspoke, I should have said not 100% are wheat sensitive. Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Lindekugel

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 9:41 AM

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Joe,Isn't celiac disease by definition an immune reaction to wheat? Doesn't that make 100% of celiac patients sensitive or allergic to wheat?Best, Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...> ; Tyna <tyna.moore@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 8:48:35 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Hi Tyna,

No offense intended. You'll see that I said "just about any ND's office" not every. But according to you even: "I diagnose and treat gluten intolerance all day long, it is real, it is a major issue and for those of us who suffer from it, a very real problem" and "Then there is the whole gluten-autoimmune connection. Every single day I diagnose autoimmune disease, not an exaggeration. It's an epidemic. We know that gluten fans that flame (again, in the literature).

So... If you are diagnosing autoimmune disease every day, you're certainly tying gluten sensitivity into that as well on a daily basis which makes it sort of your "catch all treatment" for autoimmune disorders.

Look, I'm not saying Celiac disease doesn’t exist. Far from it. I agree that it's right around 1 in a 125 people. Of those, certainly not 100% are gluten sensitive, but have a different sensitivity.

I'm also not saying that some folks don't eat too much of it. They do and would benefit and feel better by reducing the levels. My only point is I feel the fad of Gluten Sensitivity has resulted in over diagnosis.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Tyna

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:04 AM

Subject: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Wow, ph, thanks for the blanket statement regarding ND's!

Yes, I do find it unsuccessful at times. It's not my "catch all" treatment, just like adjusting the upper cervicals is not the only thing you offer.

Even MD's agree that 1-100 to 120 people in the US have frank Celiac. I see a lot of great results clinically by fishing out which foods patient's are intolerant too, just as DC's we find their structural faults and attempt to correct them.

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

Weight control is a trivial byproduct compared to: 1. Decreasing of inflamation, as evidenced by the change in the cholesterol profile. 2. Decreasing of glycated red blood cells, which has a whole host if disease processes related to it.This person has a long way to go, but he and his wife are healing, slowly. Really, you see these sorts of number changes all the time with trivial changes in diet and exercise? Then don't change what you are doing with folks.Sustainability has been proven in study after study to be better than the classic low fat diet.Best,JayFrom: ph Medlin <spinetree@...>DC Listserve < >; Lindekugel <pdxchiroguy@...>Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011 11:22:16 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Don't be so sure!

These folks could have benefited from even the smallest of alterations in diet and exercise.

Lets also see how long they can maintain it. Obviously the diet has it's benefits and one can lose weight rapidly with it. That’s not really a contention.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Lindekugel

Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 11:09 AM

DC Listserve

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Along these lines, here is a email I got last week. Re-printed with permission and names removed:: I can’t thank you enough for the referenced book. My wife and I started the program in the Six Week Cure for the Middle Aged Middle in January. Two months later I have lost 25 pounds and my wife has lost 15. The pounds aren’t as important as the fact we no longer need the medications for our diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol. Our blood sugars quit spiking and stay in the range of 80 to 120. Our blood pressure stays in the range of 120/70 constantly. I had a check on my cholesterol and the level was 190. The triglycerides were 140. The HDL (good kind) was 38 and the LDL was 98. My A1C was 6.5 versus 7.5 the last time I tested. All we had to do was basically change the way we eat and change the way we see fats and meats and carbohydrates. So thank you once again for suggesting that I read the book. Another 75 pounds and I will be at my ideal weight. I struggled for so long with my weight and this program seems to be the answer!Moderation and grains would have never done what the paleo-diet did for this couple. Best, Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland OR 97211

From: Jamey Dyson <drjdyson1@...>ph Medlin <spinetree@...>Cc: DC Listserve < >Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011 9:51:04 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issuesWhat are you trying to say about Chestnut and cavemen?....

I beg to differ. I think the science, logic and biology is very clear. Eating whole grains as part of a "balanced diet" is the wrong approach for creating optimal human health. We are humans, not canaries. Sure there are many nutritionists and doctors who will disagree with that, but it doesn't make them right. They've just learned the "balanced diet" approach and are asking different questions. Who says grains should be part of a healthy balanced diet? Food pyramid? Food science experts? Grain lobbies?

I would love for someone to explain to me the all wonderful, beneficial nutrients that we are designed to get from grains. Grains are calorically high and nutritionally weak - sure they can keep a person alive with calories, but they do not encourage a person's physiology to thrive. Just because grains could feed the masses and keep people alive long enough to reproduce so that our population exploded as a species, does not mean it is good food for humans.

Grains are 3rd world foods, starvation foods, last-resort foods. Grains contain phytates, lectins, gluten, and gliadin which wreak havoc on our digestive tracts and immune system. Please convince me otherwise.

If you were out living in the wild, without agriculture and civilization, what would you eat to not only survive, but thrive?

The whole point of this is patient outcomes. Which diet creates healthier people? With what I know about processed AND whole grains, I can't ethically recommend that my patients should eat them. We will just have to agree to disagree. I'll keep following the research by the evolutionary biology nutrition experts such as Eaton, Cordain, DeVany, and Wolf. That's what makes sense to me and that is what appears to properly meet our genetic requirements for healthy cell function to the greatest degree.

Have a great weekend everyone... and keep the grains to a minimum!

Jamey Dyson, D.C.

On Mar 17, 2011, at 1:25 PM, ph Medlin wrote:

Oh boy, here we go with the Chestnut Cavemen again....

I think we can all agree that eating Refined Grains is not healthy and in LARGE amounts can contribute to the diseases you mention. However, Whole Grain consumption especially in moderation accompanied by a balanced diet is in fact healthy. The science is not as cut and dry as Chestnut et al would have you think. There's a world of nutritionists out there that you can debate with if you like, and no, most of them aren't tied into General Mills. Much of these claims are unproven or have contradictory studies which is why many people disagree.

As a chiropractic physician and not a nutritionist, collectively aiming our patients toward a path of healthy balanced diet and exercise shouldn't be deemed silly or ill informed. There's not necessarily a wrong way to do this in my opinion. Vegetarians would claim that we aren't meant to eat meat. They have their studies. I prefer a balanced approach. It's not the wrong approach.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Jamey Dyson

Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:07 AM

DC Listserve

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

I find this whole debate silly. Grains are not good food for humans, period. They are filled with anti-nutrients and they are low in micronutrients. Our brain size has shrunk 11% since the introduction of grains in our diet. They are the backbone of the high carb, low fat diet which has exponentially increased the rates of chronic illness in the industrial world. They are also the source of omega 6 toxicity that is one of the main causes of chronic inflammation.

It seems that Mason promotes a Neolithic Diet (grains & legumes) when he writes "Eat lots of brown rice, oats, corn, buckwheat, and millet. Eat lots of beans and legumes." Sure, this is way healthier than the modern Industrial Diet, but not nearly as healthy as the Paleolithic Diet from what I can tell.

Our physiology is designed to things that come from the earth in their raw form... just think of living in the wild without fire. What would you be able to eat? The fact that you have to cook or soak or sprout grains and legumes to make them less toxic and half-way digestible just shows that they are not ideal for human consumption.

Grains now make us fat and ultimately cause heart disease, cancer, and type 2 diabetes. Just like cows in a feedlot. Simply compare the health of someone on a high grain diet vs. low or no grain diet and you will easily see the difference.

Anyone who is arguing that grains are okay for human consumption, either hasn't looked at the science or is just trying to defend their eating habits - they don't want to give up their yummy bread!

Here's a great ABC news clip on the Paleolithic Diet and Exercise trend. http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/rethinking-meat-veggies-13034429

Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWP

On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Lindekugel wrote:

Joe and ,Since the point seems to be that gluten sensitivity is way over-diagnosed (which is the take of most people), let's look at the conservative numbers both sides of the issue seem to agree on: 1/133 have full-blown celiac disease. (Though most experts in this area feel this is just the tip of the iceberg as regards the larger category of gluten sensitivity)I have no idea how many patients you see per week in your clinic, but it is reasonable to imagine missing one case Per Month or at least every six months in a busy clinic. If a chiropractor has never in 10-20 years of practice tested or sent a patient for testing for some sort of gluten sensitivity, couldn't we assume that they are Under-diagnosing this condition?And if it seems that those of us who do see that this is an under-diagnosed condition are a little sensitive about the issue, it is just our personal/clinical experience of watching dozens of family members and patients get really sick and then miraculously recover with the withdrawal of gluten. I am certain that my personal experience has made me a little hypersensitive to the issue. Best to you both,Jay Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...>oregon DCs < >; BRIAN SEITZ <dcdocbrian@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 12:35:35 PMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Get back to me when the test IS sensitive enough and we DO know.

Again, my point is that this is Over diagnosed, and it's easy to see why when there is such fervor even when one simply suggests that it's over diagnosed. I love when an opposing view is deemed uneducated and assumed to have not read the literature. There are studies that refute your studies, but the point is that like you said "who knows at this point".

Take a deep breath. It's not the devil, and we should be careful as chiropractic physicians in recommending life altering diets as an experiment on a hunch. "They feel better though" you may say, well, that may or may not have to do with gluten specifically. Obviously with Celiac Disease one can be aggressive in this, but for every headache or tingling in the hands and feet coming into the office, Gluten Sensitivity is Waayayyyyyyy down the list in my concerns.

You're going to have to accept that you have colleagues that are skeptical, and that this issue of gluten intolerance being mutually exclusive from celiac disease is yet unproven and contentious with a lot of money to be made.

For the last time, For me, this is not an issue of whether it exists, it's about Prevalence. Allergies of all kinds can cause systemic symptoms beyond coughing, sneezing, rashes etc......but how often

ph Medlin D.C.

From: BRIAN SEITZ

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:43 AM

oregon DCs

Subject: RE: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

"Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease."

Really? Come on, read the published studies! Granted, most of what I treat are MS conditions, but the literature shows (as in examples i have posted over the last couple days) that there are many real and serious conditions affecting many different organs and systems as a result of gluten sensitivity, in patients w/o celiac disease. How common? If the test is not sensitive enough who knows at this point. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724

; pdxchiroguy@...From: spinetree@...Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:25:32 -0700Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

It's not 100% reaction to wheat, But is 100% to gluten. I misspoke, I should have said not 100% are wheat sensitive. Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Lindekugel

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 9:41 AM

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Joe,Isn't celiac disease by definition an immune reaction to wheat? Doesn't that make 100% of celiac patients sensitive or allergic to wheat?Best, Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...> ; Tyna <tyna.moore@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 8:48:35 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Hi Tyna,

No offense intended. You'll see that I said "just about any ND's office" not every. But according to you even: "I diagnose and treat gluten intolerance all day long, it is real, it is a major issue and for those of us who suffer from it, a very real problem" and "Then there is the whole gluten-autoimmune connection. Every single day I diagnose autoimmune disease, not an exaggeration. It's an epidemic. We know that gluten fans that flame (again, in the literature).

So... If you are diagnosing autoimmune disease every day, you're certainly tying gluten sensitivity into that as well on a daily basis which makes it sort of your "catch all treatment" for autoimmune disorders.

Look, I'm not saying Celiac disease doesn’t exist. Far from it. I agree that it's right around 1 in a 125 people. Of those, certainly not 100% are gluten sensitive, but have a different sensitivity.

I'm also not saying that some folks don't eat too much of it. They do and would benefit and feel better by reducing the levels. My only point is I feel the fad of Gluten Sensitivity has resulted in over diagnosis.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Tyna

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:04 AM

Subject: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Wow, ph, thanks for the blanket statement regarding ND's!

Yes, I do find it unsuccessful at times. It's not my "catch all" treatment, just like adjusting the upper cervicals is not the only thing you offer.

Even MD's agree that 1-100 to 120 people in the US have frank Celiac. I see a lot of great results clinically by fishing out which foods patient's are intolerant too, just as DC's we find their structural faults and attempt to correct them.

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

Rice is the least problematic grain, (less antinutrients contained) and is only part of Asian diets, which tend to be made up of many more and varied foodstuffs. Paleolithic civilizations lived in vastly different areas of this word and thus consumed different proportions of carb/fat/protein. The common thread was lack of processing and increased fat consumption, decreased starches when moving away from the equator. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724drjdyson1@...; spinetree@...CC: From: skrndc1@...Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:14:05 -0700Subject: RE: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Jamey .... then how does one explain an entire nation of Asians, growing, thriving, succeeding on rice for so many milennia? Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

CC: To: spinetree@...From: drjdyson1@...Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:51:04 -0700Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issuesWhat are you trying to say about Chestnut and cavemen?....

I beg to differ. I think the science, logic and biology is very clear. Eating whole grains as part of a "balanced diet" is the wrong approach for creating optimal human health. We are humans, not canaries. Sure there are many nutritionists and doctors who will disagree with that, but it doesn't make them right. They've just learned the "balanced diet" approach and are asking different questions. Who says grains should be part of a healthy balanced diet? Food pyramid? Food science experts? Grain lobbies?

I would love for someone to explain to me the all wonderful, beneficial nutrients that we are designed to get from grains. Grains are calorically high and nutritionally weak - sure they can keep a person alive with calories, but they do not encourage a person's physiology to thrive. Just because grains could feed the masses and keep people alive long enough to reproduce so that our population exploded as a species, does not mean it is good food for humans.

Grains are 3rd world foods, starvation foods, last-resort foods. Grains contain phytates, lectins, gluten, and gliadin which wreak havoc on our digestive tracts and immune system. Please convince me otherwise.

If you were out living in the wild, without agriculture and civilization, what would you eat to not only survive, but thrive?

The whole point of this is patient outcomes. Which diet creates healthier people? With what I know about processed AND whole grains, I can't ethically recommend that my patients should eat them. We will just have to agree to disagree. I'll keep following the research by the evolutionary biology nutrition experts such as Eaton, Cordain, DeVany, and Wolf. That's what makes sense to me and that is what appears to properly meet our genetic requirements for healthy cell function to the greatest degree.

Have a great weekend everyone... and keep the grains to a minimum!

Jamey Dyson, D.C.

On Mar 17, 2011, at 1:25 PM, ph Medlin wrote:

Oh boy, here we go with the Chestnut Cavemen again....

I think we can all agree that eating Refined Grains is not healthy and in LARGE amounts can contribute to the diseases you mention. However, Whole Grain consumption especially in moderation accompanied by a balanced diet is in fact healthy. The science is not as cut and dry as Chestnut et al would have you think. There's a world of nutritionists out there that you can debate with if you like, and no, most of them aren't tied into General Mills. Much of these claims are unproven or have contradictory studies which is why many people disagree.

As a chiropractic physician and not a nutritionist, collectively aiming our patients toward a path of healthy balanced diet and exercise shouldn't be deemed silly or ill informed. There's not necessarily a wrong way to do this in my opinion. Vegetarians would claim that we aren't meant to eat meat. They have their studies. I prefer a balanced approach. It's not the wrong approach.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Jamey Dyson

Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:07 AM

DC Listserve

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

I find this whole debate silly. Grains are not good food for humans, period. They are filled with anti-nutrients and they are low in micronutrients. Our brain size has shrunk 11% since the introduction of grains in our diet. They are the backbone of the high carb, low fat diet which has exponentially increased the rates of chronic illness in the industrial world. They are also the source of omega 6 toxicity that is one of the main causes of chronic inflammation.

It seems that Mason promotes a Neolithic Diet (grains & legumes) when he writes "Eat lots of brown rice, oats, corn, buckwheat, and millet. Eat lots of beans and legumes." Sure, this is way healthier than the modern Industrial Diet, but not nearly as healthy as the Paleolithic Diet from what I can tell.

Our physiology is designed to things that come from the earth in their raw form... just think of living in the wild without fire. What would you be able to eat? The fact that you have to cook or soak or sprout grains and legumes to make them less toxic and half-way digestible just shows that they are not ideal for human consumption.

Grains now make us fat and ultimately cause heart disease, cancer, and type 2 diabetes. Just like cows in a feedlot. Simply compare the health of someone on a high grain diet vs. low or no grain diet and you will easily see the difference.

Anyone who is arguing that grains are okay for human consumption, either hasn't looked at the science or is just trying to defend their eating habits - they don't want to give up their yummy bread!

Here's a great ABC news clip on the Paleolithic Diet and Exercise trend. http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/rethinking-meat-veggies-13034429

Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWP

On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Lindekugel wrote:

Joe and ,Since the point seems to be that gluten sensitivity is way over-diagnosed (which is the take of most people), let's look at the conservative numbers both sides of the issue seem to agree on: 1/133 have full-blown celiac disease. (Though most experts in this area feel this is just the tip of the iceberg as regards the larger category of gluten sensitivity)I have no idea how many patients you see per week in your clinic, but it is reasonable to imagine missing one case Per Month or at least every six months in a busy clinic. If a chiropractor has never in 10-20 years of practice tested or sent a patient for testing for some sort of gluten sensitivity, couldn't we assume that they are Under-diagnosing this condition?And if it seems that those of us who do see that this is an under-diagnosed condition are a little sensitive about the issue, it is just our personal/clinical experience of watching dozens of family members and patients get really sick and then miraculously recover with the withdrawal of gluten. I am certain that my personal experience has made me a little hypersensitive to the issue. Best to you both,Jay Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...>oregon DCs < >; BRIAN SEITZ <dcdocbrian@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 12:35:35 PMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Get back to me when the test IS sensitive enough and we DO know.

Again, my point is that this is Over diagnosed, and it's easy to see why when there is such fervor even when one simply suggests that it's over diagnosed. I love when an opposing view is deemed uneducated and assumed to have not read the literature. There are studies that refute your studies, but the point is that like you said "who knows at this point".

Take a deep breath. It's not the devil, and we should be careful as chiropractic physicians in recommending life altering diets as an experiment on a hunch. "They feel better though" you may say, well, that may or may not have to do with gluten specifically. Obviously with Celiac Disease one can be aggressive in this, but for every headache or tingling in the hands and feet coming into the office, Gluten Sensitivity is Waayayyyyyyy down the list in my concerns.

You're going to have to accept that you have colleagues that are skeptical, and that this issue of gluten intolerance being mutually exclusive from celiac disease is yet unproven and contentious with a lot of money to be made.

For the last time, For me, this is not an issue of whether it exists, it's about Prevalence. Allergies of all kinds can cause systemic symptoms beyond coughing, sneezing, rashes etc......but how often

ph Medlin D.C.

From: BRIAN SEITZ

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:43 AM

oregon DCs

Subject: RE: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

"Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease."

Really? Come on, read the published studies! Granted, most of what I treat are MS conditions, but the literature shows (as in examples i have posted over the last couple days) that there are many real and serious conditions affecting many different organs and systems as a result of gluten sensitivity, in patients w/o celiac disease. How common? If the test is not sensitive enough who knows at this point. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724

; pdxchiroguy@...From: spinetree@...Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:25:32 -0700Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

It's not 100% reaction to wheat, But is 100% to gluten. I misspoke, I should have said not 100% are wheat sensitive. Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Lindekugel

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 9:41 AM

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Joe,Isn't celiac disease by definition an immune reaction to wheat? Doesn't that make 100% of celiac patients sensitive or allergic to wheat?Best, Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...> ; Tyna <tyna.moore@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 8:48:35 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Hi Tyna,

No offense intended. You'll see that I said "just about any ND's office" not every. But according to you even: "I diagnose and treat gluten intolerance all day long, it is real, it is a major issue and for those of us who suffer from it, a very real problem" and "Then there is the whole gluten-autoimmune connection. Every single day I diagnose autoimmune disease, not an exaggeration. It's an epidemic. We know that gluten fans that flame (again, in the literature).

So... If you are diagnosing autoimmune disease every day, you're certainly tying gluten sensitivity into that as well on a daily basis which makes it sort of your "catch all treatment" for autoimmune disorders.

Look, I'm not saying Celiac disease doesn’t exist. Far from it. I agree that it's right around 1 in a 125 people. Of those, certainly not 100% are gluten sensitive, but have a different sensitivity.

I'm also not saying that some folks don't eat too much of it. They do and would benefit and feel better by reducing the levels. My only point is I feel the fad of Gluten Sensitivity has resulted in over diagnosis.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Tyna

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:04 AM

Subject: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Wow, ph, thanks for the blanket statement regarding ND's!

Yes, I do find it unsuccessful at times. It's not my "catch all" treatment, just like adjusting the upper cervicals is not the only thing you offer.

Even MD's agree that 1-100 to 120 people in the US have frank Celiac. I see a lot of great results clinically by fishing out which foods patient's are intolerant too, just as DC's we find their structural faults and attempt to correct them.

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

Taubes related some info that I thought relevant to this question: The Asian question first. I do address this in the book and I address

it again in the afterward of the paperback. There are several variables

we have to consider with any diet/health interaction. Not just the fat

content and carb content, but the refinement of the carbs, the fructose

content (in HFCS and sucrose primarily) and how long they’ve had to

adapt to the refined carbs and sugars in the diet. In the case of

Japan, for instance, the bulk of the population consumed brown rice

rather than white until only recently, say the last 50 years. White

rice is labor intensive and if you’re poor, you’re eating the unrefined

rice, at least until machine refining became widely available. The more

important issue, though, is the fructose. China, Japan, Korea, until

very recently consumed exceedingly little sugar (sucrose). In the

1960s, when Keys was doing the Seven Countries Study and blaming the

absence of heart disease in the Japanese on low-fat diets, their sugar

consumption, on average, was around 40 pounds a year, or what the

Americans and British were eating a century earlier. In the China

Study, which is often evoked as refutation of the carb/insulin

hypothesis, the Chinese ate virtually no sugar. In fact, sugar

consumption wasn’t even measured in the study because it was so low.

The full report of the study runs to 800 pages and there are only a

couple of mentions of sugar. If I remember correctly (I don’t have my

files with me at the moment) it was a few pounds per year. The point is

that when researchers look at traditional populations eating their

traditional diets — whether in rural China, Japan, the Kitava study in

the South Pacific, Africa, etc — and find relatively low levels of

heart disease, obesity and diabetes compared to urban/westernized

societies, they’re inevitably looking at populations that eat

relatively little or no refined carbs and sugar compared to populations

that eat a lot. Some of these traditional populations ate high-fat

diets (the Inuit, plains Indians, pastoralists like the Masai, the

Tokelauans); some ate relatively low-fat diets (agriculturalists like

the Hunza, the Japanese, etc.), but the common denominator was the

relative absence of sugar and/or refined carbs. So the simplest

possible hypothesis to explain the health of these populations is that

they don’t eat these particularly poor quality carbohydrates, not that

they did or did not eat high fat diets. Now the fact that some of these

populations do have relatively high carb diets suggests that it’s the

sugar that is the fundamental problem. Ultimately we can only guess at

causes using this kind of observational evidence. To know anything with

certainty we’d need the kind of randomized controlled trials I yearn

for in the epilogue of GCBC.Have a great weekend all! Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211From: BRIAN SEITZ <dcdocbrian@...> Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011 1:41:26 PMSubject: RE: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Rice is the least problematic grain, (less antinutrients contained) and is only part of Asian diets, which tend to be made up of many more and varied foodstuffs. Paleolithic civilizations lived in vastly different areas of this word and thus consumed different proportions of carb/fat/protein. The common thread was lack of processing and increased fat consumption, decreased starches when moving away from the equator. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724drjdyson1@...; spinetree@...CC: From: skrndc1@...Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:14:05 -0700Subject: RE: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Jamey .... then how does one explain an entire nation of Asians, growing, thriving, succeeding on rice for so many milennia? Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

CC: To: spinetree@...From: drjdyson1@...Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:51:04 -0700Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issuesWhat are you trying to say about Chestnut and cavemen?....

I beg to differ. I think the science, logic and biology is very clear. Eating whole grains as part of a "balanced diet" is the wrong approach for creating optimal human health. We are humans, not canaries. Sure there are many nutritionists and doctors who will disagree with that, but it doesn't make them right. They've just learned the "balanced diet" approach and are asking different questions. Who says grains should be part of a healthy balanced diet? Food pyramid? Food science experts? Grain lobbies?

I would love for someone to explain to me the all wonderful, beneficial nutrients that we are designed to get from grains. Grains are calorically high and nutritionally weak - sure they can keep a person alive with calories, but they do not encourage a person's physiology to thrive. Just because grains could feed the masses and keep people alive long enough to reproduce so that our population exploded as a species, does not mean it is good food for humans.

Grains are 3rd world foods, starvation foods, last-resort foods. Grains contain phytates, lectins, gluten, and gliadin which wreak havoc on our digestive tracts and immune system. Please convince me otherwise.

If you were out living in the wild, without agriculture and civilization, what would you eat to not only survive, but thrive?

The whole point of this is patient outcomes. Which diet creates healthier people? With what I know about processed AND whole grains, I can't ethically recommend that my patients should eat them. We will just have to agree to disagree. I'll keep following the research by the evolutionary biology nutrition experts such as Eaton, Cordain, DeVany, and Wolf. That's what makes sense to me and that is what appears to properly meet our genetic requirements for healthy cell function to the greatest degree.

Have a great weekend everyone... and keep the grains to a minimum!

Jamey Dyson, D.C.

On Mar 17, 2011, at 1:25 PM, ph Medlin wrote:

Oh boy, here we go with the Chestnut Cavemen again....

I think we can all agree that eating Refined Grains is not healthy and in LARGE amounts can contribute to the diseases you mention. However, Whole Grain consumption especially in moderation accompanied by a balanced diet is in fact healthy. The science is not as cut and dry as Chestnut et al would have you think. There's a world of nutritionists out there that you can debate with if you like, and no, most of them aren't tied into General Mills. Much of these claims are unproven or have contradictory studies which is why many people disagree.

As a chiropractic physician and not a nutritionist, collectively aiming our patients toward a path of healthy balanced diet and exercise shouldn't be deemed silly or ill informed. There's not necessarily a wrong way to do this in my opinion. Vegetarians would claim that we aren't meant to eat meat. They have their studies. I prefer a balanced approach. It's not the wrong approach.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Jamey Dyson

Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:07 AM

DC Listserve

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

I find this whole debate silly. Grains are not good food for humans, period. They are filled with anti-nutrients and they are low in micronutrients. Our brain size has shrunk 11% since the introduction of grains in our diet. They are the backbone of the high carb, low fat diet which has exponentially increased the rates of chronic illness in the industrial world. They are also the source of omega 6 toxicity that is one of the main causes of chronic inflammation.

It seems that Mason promotes a Neolithic Diet (grains & legumes) when he writes "Eat lots of brown rice, oats, corn, buckwheat, and millet. Eat lots of beans and legumes." Sure, this is way healthier than the modern Industrial Diet, but not nearly as healthy as the Paleolithic Diet from what I can tell.

Our physiology is designed to things that come from the earth in their raw form... just think of living in the wild without fire. What would you be able to eat? The fact that you have to cook or soak or sprout grains and legumes to make them less toxic and half-way digestible just shows that they are not ideal for human consumption.

Grains now make us fat and ultimately cause heart disease, cancer, and type 2 diabetes. Just like cows in a feedlot. Simply compare the health of someone on a high grain diet vs. low or no grain diet and you will easily see the difference.

Anyone who is arguing that grains are okay for human consumption, either hasn't looked at the science or is just trying to defend their eating habits - they don't want to give up their yummy bread!

Here's a great ABC news clip on the Paleolithic Diet and Exercise trend. http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/rethinking-meat-veggies-13034429

Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWP

On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Lindekugel wrote:

Joe and ,Since the point seems to be that gluten sensitivity is way over-diagnosed (which is the take of most people), let's look at the conservative numbers both sides of the issue seem to agree on: 1/133 have full-blown celiac disease. (Though most experts in this area feel this is just the tip of the iceberg as regards the larger category of gluten sensitivity)I have no idea how many patients you see per week in your clinic, but it is reasonable to imagine missing one case Per Month or at least every six months in a busy clinic. If a chiropractor has never in 10-20 years of practice tested or sent a patient for testing for some sort of gluten sensitivity, couldn't we assume that they are Under-diagnosing this condition?And if it seems that those of us who do see that this is an under-diagnosed condition are a little sensitive about the issue, it is just our

personal/clinical experience of watching dozens of family members and patients get really sick and then miraculously recover with the withdrawal of gluten. I am certain that my personal experience has made me a little hypersensitive to the issue. Best to you both,Jay Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...>oregon DCs < >; BRIAN SEITZ <dcdocbrian@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 12:35:35 PMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Get back to me when the test IS sensitive enough and we DO know.

Again, my point is that this is Over diagnosed, and it's easy to see why when there is such fervor even when one simply suggests that it's over diagnosed. I love when an opposing view is deemed uneducated and assumed to have not read the literature. There are studies that refute your studies, but the point is that like you said "who knows at this point".

Take a deep breath. It's not the devil, and we should be careful as chiropractic physicians in recommending life altering diets as an experiment on a hunch. "They feel better though" you may say, well, that may or may not have to do with gluten specifically. Obviously with Celiac Disease one can be aggressive in this, but for every headache or tingling in the hands and feet coming into the office, Gluten Sensitivity is Waayayyyyyyy down the list in my concerns.

You're going to have to accept that you have colleagues that are skeptical, and that this issue of gluten intolerance being mutually exclusive from celiac disease is yet unproven and contentious with a lot of money to be made.

For the last time, For me, this is not an issue of whether it exists, it's about Prevalence. Allergies of all kinds can cause systemic symptoms beyond coughing, sneezing, rashes etc......but how often

ph Medlin D.C.

From: BRIAN SEITZ

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:43 AM

oregon DCs

Subject: RE: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

"Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease."

Really? Come on, read the published studies! Granted, most of what I treat are MS conditions, but the literature shows (as in examples i have posted over the last couple days) that there are many real and serious conditions affecting many different organs and systems as a result of gluten sensitivity, in patients w/o celiac disease. How common? If the test is not sensitive enough who knows at this point. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724

; pdxchiroguy@...From: spinetree@...Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:25:32 -0700Subject: Re:

Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

It's not 100% reaction to wheat, But is 100% to gluten. I misspoke, I should have said not 100% are wheat sensitive. Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Lindekugel

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 9:41 AM

Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Joe,Isn't celiac disease by definition an immune reaction to wheat? Doesn't that make 100% of celiac patients sensitive or allergic to wheat?Best, Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...> ; Tyna <tyna.moore@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 8:48:35 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Hi Tyna,

No offense intended. You'll see that I said "just about any ND's office" not every. But according to you even: "I diagnose and treat gluten intolerance all day long, it is real, it is a major issue and for those of us who suffer from it, a very real problem" and "Then there is the whole gluten-autoimmune connection. Every single day I diagnose autoimmune disease, not an exaggeration. It's an epidemic. We know that gluten fans that flame (again, in the literature).

So... If you are diagnosing autoimmune disease every day, you're certainly tying gluten sensitivity into that as well on a daily basis which makes it sort of your "catch all treatment" for autoimmune disorders.

Look, I'm not saying Celiac disease doesn’t exist. Far from it. I agree that it's right around 1 in a 125 people. Of those, certainly not 100% are gluten sensitive, but have a different sensitivity.

I'm also not saying that some folks don't eat too much of it. They do and would benefit and feel better by reducing the levels. My only point is I feel the fad of Gluten Sensitivity has resulted in over diagnosis.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Tyna

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:04 AM

Subject: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Wow, ph, thanks for the blanket statement regarding ND's!

Yes, I do find it unsuccessful at times. It's not my "catch all" treatment, just like adjusting the upper cervicals is not the only thing you offer.

Even MD's agree that 1-100 to 120 people in the US have frank Celiac. I see a lot of great results clinically by fishing out which foods patient's are intolerant too, just as DC's we find their structural faults and attempt to correct them.

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

First of all, it is my understanding that rice is not as toxic as other grains, so that's a plus. Also, I would say that there were other dietary factors that created better health in the Asian population, but I don't see how it was the rice. Higher amounts of veggies, fruit, fish, meat? Rice provides calories (sugar), but is not very dense with essential vitamin/mineral nutrients. Maybe Asians were even healthier before they began eating lots of rice?Ever thought about the history of agriculture? Why did grains become food "staples" in the first place? Great health? Or was it cheap food for an army or a slave population to do the work of those in power? Hmmmm.Jamey On Mar 18, 2011, at 11:14 AM, Sunny Kierstyn wrote:Jamey .... then how does one explain an entire nation of Asians, growing, thriving, succeeding on rice for so many milennia? Sunny Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.comCC: spinetree@...From: drjdyson1@...Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:51:04 -0700Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issuesWhat are you trying to say about Chestnut and cavemen?....<chestnut_cavement.jpg>I beg to differ. I think the science, logic and biology is very clear. Eating whole grains as part of a "balanced diet" is the wrong approach for creating optimal human health. We are humans, not canaries. Sure there are many nutritionists and doctors who will disagree with that, but it doesn't make them right. They've just learned the "balanced diet" approach and are asking different questions. Who says grains should be part of a healthy balanced diet? Food pyramid? Food science experts? Grain lobbies?I would love for someone to explain to me the all wonderful, beneficial nutrients that we are designed to get from grains. Grains are calorically high and nutritionally weak - sure they can keep a person alive with calories, but they do not encourage a person's physiology to thrive. Just because grains could feed the masses and keep people alive long enough to reproduce so that our population exploded as a species, does not mean it is good food for humans. Grains are 3rd world foods, starvation foods, last-resort foods. Grains contain phytates, lectins, gluten, and gliadin which wreak havoc on our digestive tracts and immune system. Please convince me otherwise.If you were out living in the wild, without agriculture and civilization, what would you eat to not only survive, but thrive?The whole point of this is patient outcomes. Which diet creates healthier people? With what I know about processed AND whole grains, I can't ethically recommend that my patients should eat them. We will just have to agree to disagree. I'll keep following the research by the evolutionary biology nutrition experts such as Eaton, Cordain, DeVany, and Wolf. That's what makes sense to me and that is what appears to properly meet our genetic requirements for healthy cell function to the greatest degree.Have a great weekend everyone... and keep the grains to a minimum!Jamey Dyson, D.C.On Mar 17, 2011, at 1:25 PM, ph Medlin wrote:Oh boy, here we go with the Chestnut Cavemen again.... I think we can all agree that eating Refined Grains is not healthy and in LARGE amounts can contribute to the diseases you mention. However, Whole Grain consumption especially in moderation accompanied by a balanced diet is in fact healthy. The science is not as cut and dry as Chestnut et al would have you think. There's a world of nutritionists out there that you can debate with if you like, and no, most of them aren't tied into General Mills. Much of these claims are unproven or have contradictory studies which is why many people disagree. As a chiropractic physician and not a nutritionist, collectively aiming our patients toward a path of healthy balanced diet and exercise shouldn't be deemed silly or ill informed. There's not necessarily a wrong way to do this in my opinion. Vegetarians would claim that we aren't meant to eat meat. They have their studies. I prefer a balanced approach. It's not the wrong approach. ph Medlin D.C.From: Jamey DysonSent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:07 AMDC ListserveSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issuesI find this whole debate silly. Grains are not good food for humans, period. They are filled with anti-nutrients and they are low in micronutrients. Our brain size has shrunk 11% since the introduction of grains in our diet. They are the backbone of the high carb, low fat diet which has exponentially increased the rates of chronic illness in the industrial world. They are also the source of omega 6 toxicity that is one of the main causes of chronic inflammation. It seems that Mason promotes a Neolithic Diet (grains & legumes) when he writes "Eat lots of brown rice, oats, corn, buckwheat, and millet. Eat lots of beans and legumes." Sure, this is way healthier than the modern Industrial Diet, but not nearly as healthy as the Paleolithic Diet from what I can tell.Our physiology is designed to things that come from the earth in their raw form... just think of living in the wild without fire. What would you be able to eat? The fact that you have to cook or soak or sprout grains and legumes to make them less toxic and half-way digestible just shows that they are not ideal for human consumption.Grains now make us fat and ultimately cause heart disease, cancer, and type 2 diabetes. Just like cows in a feedlot. Simply compare the health of someone on a high grain diet vs. low or no grain diet and you will easily see the difference.Anyone who is arguing that grains are okay for human consumption, either hasn't looked at the science or is just trying to defend their eating habits - they don't want to give up their yummy bread! Here's a great ABC news clip on the Paleolithic Diet and Exercise trend. http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/rethinking-meat-veggies-13034429Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWP On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Lindekugel wrote:Joe and ,Since the point seems to be that gluten sensitivity is way over-diagnosed (which is the take of most people), let's look at the conservative numbers both sides of the issue seem to agree on: 1/133 have full-blown celiac disease. (Though most experts in this area feel this is just the tip of the iceberg as regards the larger category of gluten sensitivity)I have no idea how many patients you see per week in your clinic, but it is reasonable to imagine missing one case Per Month or at least every six months in a busy clinic. If a chiropractor has never in 10-20 years of practice tested or sent a patient for testing for some sort of gluten sensitivity, couldn't we assume that they are Under-diagnosing this condition?And if it seems that those of us who do see that this is an under-diagnosed condition are a little sensitive about the issue, it is just our personal/clinical experience of watching dozens of family members and patients get really sick and then miraculously recover with the withdrawal of gluten. I am certain that my personal experience has made me a little hypersensitive to the issue. Best to you both,Jay Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...>oregon DCs < >; BRIAN SEITZ <dcdocbrian@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 12:35:35 PMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues Get back to me when the test IS sensitive enough and we DO know. Again, my point is that this is Over diagnosed, and it's easy to see why when there is such fervor even when one simply suggests that it's over diagnosed. I love when an opposing view is deemed uneducated and assumed to have not read the literature. There are studies that refute your studies, but the point is that like you said "who knows at this point". Take a deep breath. It's not the devil, and we should be careful as chiropractic physicians in recommending life altering diets as an experiment on a hunch. "They feel better though" you may say, well, that may or may not have to do with gluten specifically. Obviously with Celiac Disease one can be aggressive in this, but for every headache or tingling in the hands and feet coming into the office, Gluten Sensitivity is Waayayyyyyyy down the list in my concerns. You're going to have to accept that you have colleagues that are skeptical, and that this issue of gluten intolerance being mutually exclusive from celiac disease is yet unproven and contentious with a lot of money to be made. For the last time, For me, this is not an issue of whether it exists, it's about Prevalence. Allergies of all kinds can cause systemic symptoms beyond coughing, sneezing, rashes etc......but how often ph Medlin D.C.From: BRIAN SEITZSent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:43 AMoregon DCsSubject: RE: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues "Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease."Really? Come on, read the published studies! Granted, most of what I treat are MS conditions, but the literature shows (as in examples i have posted over the last couple days) that there are many real and serious conditions affecting many different organs and systems as a result of gluten sensitivity, in patients w/o celiac disease. How common? If the test is not sensitive enough who knows at this point. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724 ; pdxchiroguy@...From: spinetree@...Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:25:32 -0700Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues It's not 100% reaction to wheat, But is 100% to gluten. I misspoke, I should have said not 100% are wheat sensitive. Where we run into difficulty is that there are folks that believe that you can have sensitivity to Gluten and not have Celiac Disease. ph Medlin D.C.From: LindekugelSent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 9:41 AM Subject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues Joe,Isn't celiac disease by definition an immune reaction to wheat? Doesn't that make 100% of celiac patients sensitive or allergic to wheat?Best, Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...> ; Tyna <tyna.moore@...>Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 8:48:35 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues Hi Tyna, No offense intended. You'll see that I said "just about any ND's office" not every. But according to you even: "I diagnose and treat gluten intolerance all day long, it is real, it is a major issue and for those of us who suffer from it, a very real problem" and "Then there is the whole gluten-autoimmune connection. Every single day I diagnose autoimmune disease, not an exaggeration. It's an epidemic. We know that gluten fans that flame (again, in the literature). So... If you are diagnosing autoimmune disease every day, you're certainly tying gluten sensitivity into that as well on a daily basis which makes it sort of your "catch all treatment" for autoimmune disorders.Look, I'm not saying Celiac disease doesn’t exist. Far from it. I agree that it's right around 1 in a 125 people. Of those, certainly not 100% are gluten sensitive, but have a different sensitivity. I'm also not saying that some folks don't eat too much of it. They do and would benefit and feel better by reducing the levels. My only point is I feel the fad of Gluten Sensitivity has resulted in over diagnosis. ph Medlin D.C.From: Tyna Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:04 AM Subject: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues Wow, ph, thanks for the blanket statement regarding ND's! Yes, I do find it unsuccessful at times. It's not my "catch all" treatment, just like adjusting the upper cervicals is not the only thing you offer.Even MD's agree that 1-100 to 120 people in the US have frank Celiac. I see a lot of great results clinically by fishing out which foods patient's are intolerant too, just as DC's we find their structural faults and attempt to correct them.Tyna , ND, DCLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246www.corewellnesspdx.comwww.lakeoswegochiro.comwww.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

So What is considered a balance diet?

    

Spinal quest Health Technologies

A Center for non-surgical treatment of Scoliosis

Carl  Bonofiglio, D.C.

503-608-7484

Cell 503-312-5744

www.spinalquest.net

-- Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Wow, ph, thanks for the blanket statement regarding ND's!

Yes, I do find it unsuccessful at times. It's not my "catch all" treatment, just like adjusting the upper cervicals is not the only thing you offer.

Even MD's agree that 1-100 to 120 people in the US have frank Celiac. I see a lot of great results clinically by fishing out which foods patient's are intolerant too, just as DC's we find their structural faults and attempt to correct them.

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org

[Guest guest]

This discussion about diet is fascinating, but am I the only one who wants to know where Dr. Chestnut got that suit?! Glenn Sykes, DC Gresham Town Fair Chiropractic ClinicPhone: (503) 667-6744Fax: (503) 661-7896WWW.GRESHAMCHIROPRACTOR.NET From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of docbonoSent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 9:08 AMph Medlin; Jamey DysonCc: DC ListserveSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues So What is considered a balance diet?     Spinal quest Health TechnologiesA Center for non-surgical treatment of Scoliosis Carl  Bonofiglio, D.C.503-608-7484Cell 503-312-5744www.spinalquest.net -- Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues Wow, ph, thanks for the blanket statement regarding ND's! Yes, I do find it unsuccessful at times. It's not my " catch all " treatment, just like adjusting the upper cervicals is not the only thing you offer. Even MD's agree that 1-100 to 120 people in the US have frank Celiac. I see a lot of great results clinically by fishing out which foods patient's are intolerant too, just as DC's we find their structural faultsand attempt to correct them. Tyna , ND, DCLake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246www.corewellnesspdx.comwww.lakeoswegochiro.comwww.renegadewellness.org __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5950 (20110313) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5950 (20110313) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com

[Guest guest]

Carl,AHHHHH... The 10 million dollar question! What a healthy individual should/can eat is very different than the issue of food as medicine. We are in the stone-ages when it comes to research on truly healthy individuals. If your energy is good, digestion is strong, live a balanced relatively stress-free life, are free of the diseases of civilization, blood work looks good (by ND standards, not MD standards), and are in your 50's or 60's I wouldn't change a thing besides avoiding poisons in processed and fake foods. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But if you are typical in any way, ie fat accumulation around organs (poor hip/waist ratio), lipids off, A1c rising etc., looking into the paleo way of eating can be life changing. The lesson of Weston A.

Price was that hunter-gatherer societies across the world lived with very little to no heart disease on very different diets. They ranged from mostly vegetarian (including grains!), to 100% meat/blood/milk. The only reason we are having this discussion is because back in the 50's and 60's somebody got things really screwed up and told everyone that fat was evil, new industrialized oils were healthier than butter and lard, processed food is OK, and fiber is mandatory. We have not begun to pay for the hangover this has caused on our health. Paleolithic eating MAY be a great way for healthy individuals to eat, but it is certainly is great for your health if you suffer from any of the diseases of western civilization.Best, Lindekugel, DCConcordia Chiropractic Center5425 NE 33rd Ave.Portland Or. 97211From: docbono <docbono1@...>ph Medlin <spinetree@...>; Jamey Dyson <drjdyson1@...>Cc: DC Listserve < >Sent: Sat, March 19, 2011 9:08:00 AMSubject: Re: Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

So What is considered a balance diet?

    

Spinal quest Health Technologies

A Center for non-surgical treatment of Scoliosis

Carl  Bonofiglio, D.C.

503-608-7484

Cell 503-312-5744

www.spinalquest.net

-- Re: 17 year old female with digestive issues

Wow, ph, thanks for the blanket statement regarding ND's!

Yes, I do find it unsuccessful at times. It's not my "catch all" treatment, just like adjusting the upper cervicals is not the only thing you offer.

Even MD's agree that 1-100 to 120 people in the US have frank Celiac. I see a lot of great results clinically by fishing out which foods patient's are intolerant too, just as DC's we find their structural faults and attempt to correct them.

Tyna , ND, DC

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246

www.corewellnesspdx.com

www.lakeoswegochiro.com

www.renegadewellness.org