Re: Organic versus ethical etc...

[Guest guest]

>

> I just would like to open this debate as, unless someone can prove

me

> wrong, I start believing that the organic trend has become a huge

and

> deceiving commercial issue.

> * In the US, we have recently had legislators, (backed by big

business) attempting to allow nonorganic compounds to be added to

products and labeled as organic.

> I have had a request to create an 'ORGANIC FLORAL WATER,ALCOHOL

FREE

> BASED SPLASH'!! Why am I getting uptight about it, will you ask?

> Well, first of all, part of the request is that the floral waters

> must be UK Soil Association certified. Now, when you look at the

list

> of these accredited floral waters, you end up with 12 most simple

> ones such as lavender, chamomile, rosemary, verbena, orange

flowers,

> rose... Vetiver is not even in their list so where do I start? And

> alcohol-free???

*not like I know so much about perfume, but I'd burn off the alcohol,

as in cooking and add in some water.

>

> Second of all, WHY on earth are there hundreds of Organic

> associations with their own accreditation, in each country, which

> confuses everyone, with some apparently more flexible than others.

> For instance, the UK Organic Farmers Group allows essential oils

that the Soil Association does not authorize. The soil Association

has just banned CEDARWOOD as it is supposedly an endangered species.

* In the US, it is a dilemna similar to which one of the grant

funded, non-profit, earth saving, organizations am I going to

support. So it seems you need a sustainable agriculture association

>

> My dilemna is: I don't see how I am going to make a yummy men's

> fragrance based on a maximum of 12 floral waters... Surely, there

> can't be any lasting power and it will smell of either slightly

> scented water or nothing but definitely not of a men's fragrance.

>

> The way I look at it is as follows:

>

> - As a NP, I thrive on creativity. I believe that the ORGANIC trend

> has become just like the FRENCH MICHELIN STARS for restaurants.

> Indeed, in the last few years, some restaurants all over the world,

> accredited with one or several Michelin stars actually withdrew and

> gave their stars back because they were so hindered in terms of

> creativity, that having those stars was not serving their interests

> at all.

>

> The organic world is about to become the same: by banning and

> preventing normal and pure essential oils - which have not

> necessarily been grown organically (for whatever this means

anyway),

*IMHO pesticide residue would change the composition of the oil.

> we will end up with unscented and rather boring fragrances since we

> will not be able to work with beautiful oils such as magnolia,

nard,

> costus, frangipani etc....

* Who supports the soil organization? Here it is big business who

push the politicians to create laws and organziations that support

only their view. Are the soil people backed by say big companies who

want to limit the supplies, so they have it all to themselves? only a

thought.

>

> I believe that we and the 'organic' cosmetics industry should

strive

> to create 'ETHICAL' products rather than 'ORGANIC' ones as the way

it

> goes, the endangered species is more likely to be the HUMAN RACE.

We

> should ensure that the oils and supplies we buy are serving the

> interest of a less lucky country and less lucky people - with

> supported evidence. That is why I will always endeavour to supply

> from suppliers with an ethical and human philosophy rather than

from

> those 'jumping on the organic bandwagon'.

* Ethical is the way it should be

>

> I would like to know what are your point of views on this and

whether

> you had had to work with such a request in your business.

* I don't have a business myself just an agriculture/horticulture

past, chemistry/physics teacher present, and an NP future!

Sincerely

Kathy

>

> Thank you

>

> Isabelle

> www.lilymoon.co.uk

>

[Guest guest]

On Jul 31, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Isabelle Gelle wrote:

> I just would like to open this debate as, unless someone can prove me

> wrong, I start believing that the organic trend has become a huge and

> deceiving commercial issue....

I have a long association with organics. I am a long-time organic

gardener (mini farmer is more like it). Agricultural studies (along

with sustainable-development topics) was a focus of mine. I've worked

for organic farmers and at health-food stores.

The people who are obfuscating and confusing people are the enormous

commercial interests. In the USA, we now have a federal unified

organic certifying agency. You still see some products labeled with

the old private and state labels, but very soon now, anyone selling

things they want labeled organic will have to abide by the federal

regulations and be approved by the federal regulators.

Many of us fought long and hard to make sure that the accreditation

of " USDA Organic " actually means something. It does mean something;

it's not just a marketing ploy. Big business was trying to get things

like " municipal bio sludge " allowed in and still be called organic.

We stopped them.

From my studies (at quite a high level), I can tell you that there

is no question at all that there are toxic residues on and in plants

not grown organically. I met an Ayurvedic doctor once who claimed to

have done his own testing and determined this was not the case. He's

wrong. You need to be a heavily capitalized entity to accurately

assess such a thing.

All chemicals in all areas concentrate most in fatty areas, in our

bodies, in animals, in plants. That's why, for example, it is such a

crime against the American people that cotton-seed oil is allowed

into food products because, on the production side of things, cotton

is not seen as a food crop. Talk about a loophole. More chemicals are

applied to cotton than to all other crops combined. And they all

concentrate themselves in the SEEDS.

If you don't know it, the agricultural chemicals in common use came

onto the scene after WWII. Why? There was a huge surplus of chemical

weapons and someone got the great idea to use them on bugs instead of

wartime enemies.

The cost to the public of the toxic effects of agricultural chemicals

is measured in BILLIONS of dollars, when measured conservatively. I

have MS. Since MANY of the chemicals in common use are known

neurotoxins, there's every reason in the world to believe they are at

least partly responsible. A recent study not only honed in on the

genes responsible, but acknowledged that there is some environmental

component. You mean like neurotoxins in my food and water might be

responsible? How outlandish.....

I know, also from studying, that the deleterious effects of an

enormous organic farm are not much different from those of an

enormous conventional farm. Again, BIG business is to blame.

And big business does it's best to make it seem like " organic " is

just confusing everybody. I saw a news clip once about " consumers'

worries and confusion with all the organic labels. " The TV station,

with large agri-business investors, skillfully avoided any camera

shots of the new USDA Organic labels, meant to alleviate confusion.

I must say that I and everyone I know involved in the field would

much prefer have private certifying agencies over government ones.

But " organic " is definitely NOT a marketing ploy, though big business

does its best to make it appear as one. I've been buying exclusively

organic food for almost 20 years, even when I hardly earned any money

at all, I paid more. I understand all too clearly the full social

costs of conventional agriculture. I do it for the children and I

don't even have any.

To me, it's almost EXACTLY like natural-perfumery vs synthetic-

perfumery. In both cases, the " organic " /natural way was the original

way. In both cases, knowledge and techniques which came dangerously

close to extinction are being reborn, to the good of us all. I fall

very clearly on one side of things.

[Guest guest]

I've been growing my plants organically and been in the natural

products industry for well over a decade and a half now. I;ve seen

many changes come about during that time, especially when it comes to

organic and organic certification.

ONE of my biggest beefs with the whole " certified organic " issue these

days is .. there are plenty of raw materials, that I am personally

diligent about sourcing, that are grown as organic as can be

(fertilized with sheep sh*t and watered by the rain clouds) which

can't be listed in any official way on the products and don't get as

much " respect " or " street cred " as they would if they were called

certified organic (even though in some cases they're even more

" organic " than the gov't certified organic crops).

Here are a few firm examples for ya .. the Rose Otto and Hydrosol I

get from Turkey. They aren't using any chemicals on their crops (no

pesticides, no fertilizers, no nothing). If the peasant farmers there

could afford to use " modern farming chemicals " they very well might,

but they can't, so they don't .. and they're not paying extra money

they don't have to be certified by anyone either.

I get a wonderful Fair Trade shea butter, that is hand made, by women,

from shea nuts that grow on wild trees in Togo Africa. This beautiful

butter is the finest I've ever come across in all my years dealing

with shea butter, and it is empowering and raising the living

standards of a whole community. It is organic as can be. Its not

certified cause once again .. their money goes to feeding their

children, not a gov't certification program .. but does it get the

" respect " that another " certified organic " shea butter gets .. no.

Last example for today I have a wonderful rose hip seed oil from a

producer in Chile . Half his acreage is " certified organic " , the other

half, due to certification expenses, is not. ALL the plants are grown

and treated exactly the same way - to " certified organic " standards ..

but the certified organic oil is about twice the price. I do not buy

his certified organic oil, as there is no benefit, except words, to my

customer over his " conventional " oil offering.

Come to think of it, I had a peach & cherry farmer in Colorado I used

to buy from at the farmer's market with the same deal going on and I

always bought his organic but not allowed to be called non organic

peaches for half the cost of the stuff with the organic label.

There is a local farmer movement here called " Naturally Grown " . When

these naturally growing " Naturally Grown " farmers tried to use the

term " Beyond Organic " to make note of the fact they have even stricter

standards in place than organic certification standars, the FDA told

them that they, the gov't now OWNS the word organic entirely and they

can't even reference it unless they have the permission to use it,

which is granted via certification. Many good, old, been farming

organically for decades, farmers are refusing to get the FDA

certification!

So while certified organic is a very good and very important thing ...

its can be fluff and puffery too!

I tell ya - its not easy being green!!!!! {grinz}

*Smile*

Chris

http://alittleolfactory.com/

Check out my latest blog!

http://alittleolfactory.blogspot.com/

[Guest guest]

>

> > I just would like to open this debate as, unless someone can

prove me

> > wrong, I start believing that the organic trend has become a huge

and

> > deceiving commercial issue....

>

> I have a long association with organics. I am a long-time organic

> gardener (mini farmer is more like it). Agricultural studies

(along

> with sustainable-development topics) was a focus of mine. I've

worked

> for organic farmers and at health-food stores.

>

> The people who are obfuscating and confusing people are the

enormous

> commercial interests. In the USA, we now have a federal unified

> organic certifying agency. You still see some products labeled

with

> the old private and state labels, but very soon now, anyone

selling

> things they want labeled organic will have to abide by the federal

> regulations and be approved by the federal regulators.

>

> Many of us fought long and hard to make sure that the

accreditation

> of " USDA Organic " actually means something. It does mean

something;

> it's not just a marketing ploy. Big business was trying to get

things

> like " municipal bio sludge " allowed in and still be called

organic.

> We stopped them.

>

> From my studies (at quite a high level), I can tell you that

there

> is no question at all that there are toxic residues on and in

plants

> not grown organically. I met an Ayurvedic doctor once who claimed

to

> have done his own testing and determined this was not the case.

He's

> wrong. You need to be a heavily capitalized entity to accurately

> assess such a thing.

>

> All chemicals in all areas concentrate most in fatty areas, in our

> bodies, in animals, in plants. That's why, for example, it is such

a

> crime against the American people that cotton-seed oil is allowed

> into food products because, on the production side of things,

cotton

> is not seen as a food crop. Talk about a loophole. More chemicals

are

> applied to cotton than to all other crops combined. And they all

> concentrate themselves in the SEEDS.

>

> If you don't know it, the agricultural chemicals in common use

came

> onto the scene after WWII. Why? There was a huge surplus of

chemical

> weapons and someone got the great idea to use them on bugs instead

of

> wartime enemies.

>

> The cost to the public of the toxic effects of agricultural

chemicals

> is measured in BILLIONS of dollars, when measured conservatively.

I

> have MS. Since MANY of the chemicals in common use are known

> neurotoxins, there's every reason in the world to believe they are

at

> least partly responsible. A recent study not only honed in on the

> genes responsible, but acknowledged that there is some

environmental

> component. You mean like neurotoxins in my food and water might be

> responsible? How outlandish.....

>

> I know, also from studying, that the deleterious effects of an

> enormous organic farm are not much different from those of an

> enormous conventional farm. Again, BIG business is to blame.

>

> And big business does it's best to make it seem like " organic " is

> just confusing everybody. I saw a news clip once about " consumers'

> worries and confusion with all the organic labels. " The TV

station,

> with large agri-business investors, skillfully avoided any camera

> shots of the new USDA Organic labels, meant to alleviate confusion.

>

> I must say that I and everyone I know involved in the field would

> much prefer have private certifying agencies over government ones.

>

> But " organic " is definitely NOT a marketing ploy, though big

business

> does its best to make it appear as one. I've been buying

exclusively

> organic food for almost 20 years, even when I hardly earned any

money

> at all, I paid more. I understand all too clearly the full social

> costs of conventional agriculture. I do it for the children and I

> don't even have any.

>

> To me, it's almost EXACTLY like natural-perfumery vs synthetic-

> perfumery. In both cases, the " organic " /natural way was the

original

> way. In both cases, knowledge and techniques which came

dangerously

> close to extinction are being reborn, to the good of us all. I

fall

> very clearly on one side of things.

Thank you Adam for this. Myself spent 14 years on the side where

pesticides were the norm. In fact after I graduated with my hort

degree, I took a course on organic gardening because they did not

teach that in school. When I left the industry in early 90's, they

were just starting integrated pest management but that is still a far

cry from organic. I suffer from extensive nerve damage and would not

doubt that is from all the exposure I've had to the toxins during

those years. So organic is a big deal in my house. I think it is

funny that I teach chemistry. The subject completely fascinates me.

As much as I can learn about synthes, the more I can educate myself

and my students against them, if that makes sense. And the more I

can learn about naturals the more I can give my students better

options. NP is natural chemistry and I think that is what is calling

me to it.

Kathy

[Guest guest]

Hi Adam and all

Totally agree with all the points brought up.

Here in Wales there is a two tiered system... for example with eggs.... on one

hand there are the organic eggs with all the paperwork etc being sold (more

expensive) then we have the free range .... this is where you really have to

read the labels carefully ... as they can cover up the fact that yes the

chickens are allowed to freely walk about (but in a covered barn!).... or free

range where the chickens are allowed to roam freely.... I guess reading the fine

print is important... and as far as eggs there are plenty of locals here who

have their own and sell them in the local grocery stores....

I suppose what I am trying to support is .... wild crafting and free ranging

can be just as equal as organic without the paperwork just as you both have

emphasized... but just read the fine print a bit more to make sure... where

organic cert is without loopholes.

Kind Regards

Janita

http://www.hayspace.co.uk

---------------------------------

Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Guest guest]

> I would like to know what are your point of views on this and whether

> you had had to work with such a request in your business.

>

> Thank you

>

> Isabelle

> www.lilymoon.co.uk

>

I agree with a lot that has been said here. I wanted to bring up a

side to the issue which hasn't yet been raised. GMO. I have heard that

if a farmer is growing organic tomatoes for example and then 200 km

down the road a farmer is growing a GMO crop, there is risk of cross

pollination, in other words the little bees carry the pollen from the

GMO crop and pollinate the 'organic' crop, thereby rendering them 'not

truly certifiably organic'.

The good news is for Irish organic farmers is:

The government's new policy to declare the island of Ireland as a

GMO-free zone.

http://www.gmfreeireland.org/

Not much good really because not a lot of EO's are produced in

Ireland, in fact melissa is the only one I know of.

Ruth

http://www.whitewitch.ie

[Guest guest]

> side to the issue which hasn't yet been raised. GMO. I have heard

> that

> if a farmer is growing organic tomatoes for example and then 200 km

> down the road a farmer is growing a GMO crop, there is risk of cross

> pollination, in other words the little bees carry the pollen from the

> GMO crop and pollinate the 'organic' crop, thereby rendering them 'not

> truly certifiably organic'.

>

> The good news is for Irish organic farmers is:

> The government's new policy to declare the island of Ireland as a

> GMO-free zone.

>

> http://www.gmfreeireland.org/

> Not much good really because not a lot of EO's are produced in

> Ireland, in fact melissa is the only one I know of.

> Ruth

> http://www.whitewitch.i

i worry About this all the time RUTH

AND more so....i had read an article a few years ago, about it being

against the law for iraqi citizens to keep their own seeds..heirloom,

organic seeds...and that they had to use the *corporate* seeds...have

you heard that?

that seems so outrageously wrong, just terribly wrong.

this is related..to GMO conversation and large corporation forcing

the use of seeds that are tainted and in no way organic to begin

with. what is to be done/???

i hope more countries go the route you mention.

*smiles hopefully*

*sigh*

L

Libby /510-290-4028

http://web.mac.com/libbypatterson

http://www.angelicaromas.com

http://www.priestessofalchemy.com

[Guest guest]

>

> I just would like to open this debate as, unless someone can prove me

> wrong, I start believing that the organic trend has become a huge and

> deceiving commercial issue.

>

I agree that in the world of beauty and personal care, organic can be more

of a marketing

ploy than a reality. Personal care product labeling isn't subjected to nearly

the same

standards as food is. I think one potential solution is to use labeling that

says something like

" ingredients are organic or wild crafted whenever possible " . That sends a

messege that you

are aware and that you care, but still gives you room to work with the

ingredients you need.

You can also use language like " free of pesticides " if your materials

have been batch

tested by the retailer, which I'm sure some of them do. Organic certification is

expensive and

many ingredients could be technically organic, although they may not be

certified.

It's really up to us to make our intentions clear to our customers. As we

educate them,

they become more savvy and able to make informed choices. I hope this is

helpful!

-

[Guest guest]

>

> I've been growing my plants organically and been in the natural

> products industry for well over a decade and a half now. I;ve seen

> many changes come about during that time, especially when it comes

to

> organic and organic certification.

>

> ONE of my biggest beefs with the whole " certified organic " issue

these

> days is .. there are plenty of raw materials, that I am personally

> diligent about sourcing, that are grown as organic as can be

> (fertilized with sheep sh*t and watered by the rain clouds) which

> can't be listed in any official way on the products and don't get as

> much " respect " or " street cred " as they would if they were called

> certified organic (even though in some cases they're even more

> " organic " than the gov't certified organic crops).

>

> Here are a few firm examples for ya .. the Rose Otto and Hydrosol I

> get from Turkey. They aren't using any chemicals on their crops (no

> pesticides, no fertilizers, no nothing). If the peasant farmers

there

> could afford to use " modern farming chemicals " they very well might,

> but they can't, so they don't .. and they're not paying extra money

> they don't have to be certified by anyone either.

>

> I get a wonderful Fair Trade shea butter, that is hand made, by

women,

> from shea nuts that grow on wild trees in Togo Africa. This

beautiful

> butter is the finest I've ever come across in all my years dealing

> with shea butter, and it is empowering and raising the living

> standards of a whole community. It is organic as can be. Its not

> certified cause once again .. their money goes to feeding their

> children, not a gov't certification program .. but does it get the

> " respect " that another " certified organic " shea butter gets .. no.

>

>

I couldn't agree with more!! Something else we should all

remember; McMahon of White Lotus Aromatics has the most

incredible newsletters, dealing mostly with India and the many years

he spent living and working on various farms there. He said it so

eloquently in one of his newletters (and I'm sorry I can't remember

exactly which one and I'm paraphrasing, so it might not come out as

well) we cannot forget the simple people who perform backbreaking

labor for very little money; through their efforts, we have available

to us the rarest, most beautiful essences at a very reasonable price.

Another really disgusting fact about our food sources in this area of

the Southwest is this: Juarez, Mexico, a city of 1.2 MILLION PEOPLE

on the border with El Paso, does not have a sewage treatment plant,

but dumps TONS of raw sewage into the Rio Grande every single day.

Nearly all crops in this area are irrigated with water from the Rio

Grande - this includes onions, tomatoes, chile, lettuce, and pecans.

UGHHHHH...

G. (G stands for GROSSED OUT!!)

[Guest guest]

While I would agree that the world of organics is mired in smoke and

mirrors in varying respects, in Australia organic certification is not

a crock. It is a very specific, reasonably costed, legislated,

actively reinforced and strictly run process that has many far

reaching social, environmental as well as commercial ramifications

doing much to protect the integrity of a product that is being

presented as organic.

I think the word " ethical " presents a quandary regarding its

subjective nature. That is, unlike the definition of what constitutes

organic, there are many definitions of what constitutes ethical. For

example, I find the continued harvest of endangered plants unethical

as I do animal testing. Others may view the fact that harvesting an

endangered plant is immaterial as it presents a way of making a living

which, for them, is ethical just as they would view vivisection or

stem cell research equally so because they feel it benefits the human

race (it doesn't) and even if it did, the question this then conjures

up for me is why is the benefit human race paramount? Would this be

considered ethical too? In organic certification, you have specific,

quantified, tangible standards that do not split hairs.

Unfortunately, we have governments that do.

Regarding the dishonest aspect of the market, I don't think any

particular section of the marketplace is necessarily shadier than the

other as it offers an opportunity for all sorts of shysters to take

advantage of the uneducated public. While there are large

organizations who repeatedly cut corners, there are also many, many

smaller operations that think it's just fine and dandy to grow

something " without pesticides " and whack an " organic " or " organically

grown " or " grown under certified organic conditions " sticker on the

packet of a product which I find just as obfuscating and confusing.

Indeed, I see plenty of such examples in online shops purporting to

sell soaps etc which are " organic " but bear no evidence to support

this claim. In addition, the labeling is nothing short of shonky – no

listing of botanical names for the plants used, no percentages given,

two pertinent details which would land the purveyor a hefty fine in an

Australian market. To me, all this is just as fraudulent because they

cannot verify nor prove that claim which is part and parcel of the

certification requirement. In my view, if you cannot prove it, you

cannot use the word. Proving it does require an outlay of expense, an

overhead which I do not deny. But again, I put forward that when

entering the marketplace, one who does business must take this into

consideration and either fashion it in as part of their business plan

or not. Ultimately, consumers deserve strong and quality based organic

standards. Equally, I am in support of premium prices for certified

product. If I want a guarantee that the product is certified then I

have to pay for it just as farmers who seek to produce a premium

product pay for it. The word " organic " is also legally protected.

This does not mean it is owned by a government as such but it does

mean that its use is regulated (like other words such as " doctor " and

" nurse " ) and, I believe, rightly so. I also believe that similar

restrictions should be afforded to the word " natural " also.

I can't speak for other countries, but in Australia there aren't

hundreds of certifying bodies, there are five. All are governed by the

Australian Quarantine Inspection Service (AQIS) – which also works in

conjunction with international certifying bodies to ensure

consistency. Additionally, with regard to certification of crops,

there are no half and half measures. Produce is certified as a whole,

not in sections and the grower and property are certified together as

a pair and after an extensive audit is completed. Again, there are

also specific boundaries for GMOs to protect against cross pollination

to prevent the " GMO down the road " scenario. Prior to this,

litigation undertaken in the instances where cross pollination has

occurred has been successful and I am happy to report that the push

against GMO has been huge here in recent years leading to a review of

food labeling laws here. Again, like the UK Soil Association, there

are issues regarding plants that are deemed ecologically at risk such

as Australian sandalwood (santalum spicatum), rosewood (dalbergia

nigra) and American ginseng (panex quinquefolium), some of which have

been listed by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered

Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) which is supported by industry

as well as government and there are others such as Rosewood

(gymnocoronis spilanthoides) which cannot be imported as they're on an

Environmental Watch lists so you will find that it's not only the UK

Soil Association banning as such but something that is supported by

the wider community. I have not heard about the one regarding

Cedarwood and although the type wasn't stated - cedrus atlantica or

juniperus procera - both are on endangered lists (Cropwatch and CITES)

and due to the unsustainable harvesting of such crops, until such time

an ecologically sustainable aromatic and essential oil industry is

achievable, then a ban on utilising these substances would be

something I support.

On the whole, while I agree that free ranging and wild crafting in the

true sense is on par with certified organic stock, it is not

sustainable in a commercial sense in that the standards are there to

ensure that what you know is true is also true for the consumer.

[Guest guest]

Goodwin <cgood@...> wrote: Juarez, Mexico, a city of 1.2

MILLION PEOPLE

on the border with El Paso, does not have a sewage treatment plant,

but dumps TONS of raw sewage into the Rio Grande every single day.

Nearly all crops in this area are irrigated with water from the Rio

Grande - this includes onions, tomatoes, chile, lettuce, and pecans.

UGHHHHH...

G. (G stands for GROSSED OUT!!)

Hi Chris......

Yeah gross on the sound of it..... they certainly could do with a sewarage

treatment plant... but actually the raw sewarage is probably feeding the

crops....as gross as it may sound

Farmers, here feed their fields with the raw sewarage from their

farms...soakaways etc..and the smell for a few days yowza......

but yes still gross... def

Janita

http://www.hayspace.co.uk

---------------------------------

Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Guest guest]

<snipped> I am in support of premium prices for certified

> product. If I want a guarantee that the product is certified then I

> have to pay for it just as farmers who seek to produce a premium

> product pay for it.

I have to play devil's advocate on this one ... so poor people

shouldn't be able to afford organic products? Sustainable and healthy

products that don't poison us should be exclusive to the wealthy?

If we're going to go down that road, I think gov'ts should give the

same subsidies to the organic farmers as they do the conventional and

factory farmers - then the prices of organic would be as artificially

low as conventionals

> The word " organic " is also legally protected.

> This does not mean it is owned by a government as such but it does

> mean that its use is regulated (like other words such as " doctor " and

> " nurse " ) and, I believe, rightly so. I also believe that similar

> restrictions should be afforded to the word " natural " also.

In the US the gov't does own the word organic - or at least they claim

to. They have threatened to take legal action against farmers (and

anyone else) even mentioning the term organic, even if you're not

claiming to BE organic. You can't even reference the word organic if

you haven't paid them the money honey.

> On the whole, while I agree that free ranging and wild crafting in the

> true sense is on par with certified organic stock, it is not

> sustainable in a commercial sense in that the standards are there to

> ensure that what you know is true is also true for the consumer.

This is a where the rubber meets the road issue. There are more than

enough myrtle bushes growing wild on the hillsides of Turkey to be

trimmed and distilled and supply the world with myrtle oil. They also

grow back each year as they are perennial shrubs. Its actually

probably MORE sustainable and practical for it to be harvested wild in

this case.

The shea trees in Togo bear fruit that shea butter is made from. The

sustainability matters not if it grows on the edge of the savannah

village or on somebody's " certified organic " plot of land.

A chicken doesn't necessarily need to be certified organic as opposed

to just free range to be commercially sustainable.

On the other hand, does it make sustainable sense to plant sandalwood

tree farms (and grow them organically of course) to ensure the

availability of sandalwood for generations to come, since it takes a

while for them to mature? Heck yeah it does! But also is most of the

sandalwood today harvested for making EO, no! Its used for religious

statues, etc ... Same thing for rosewood, which is made into high end

furniture. They don't cut down rosewood tress just to distill them.

They distill what scraps they can't use for something even more

valuable. Waste not, want not. Here we're into a slightly different

ethical discussion. If a tree is felled for another industry, that is

going to do it regardless of whether aromatherapy or natural perfumery

exists, should the scraps be left to decay, or used to make oil?

No black and whites here, but lots of shades of gray.

In the end, growing without the undesirable synthetics is the way to

go, but " certified organic " doesn't necessarily mean a superior or

more sustainable product than naturally grown or wild grown. In some

cases it sure does, but not always.

*Smile*

Chris

Fantastic Floral Waxes - ON SALE!

http://www.alittleolfactory.com

[Guest guest]

> I have heard that if a farmer is growing organic tomatoes for

> example and then 200 km down the road a farmer is growing a GMO

> crop, there is risk of cross pollination, in other words the little

> bees carry the pollen from the GMO crop and pollinate the 'organic'

> crop, thereby rendering them 'not truly certifiably organic'.

That goes not only GMO crops but all conventional crops! Bees travel.

I always chuckle when, of all things, I see certified organic honey.

How do they know?!?! Did they have the bees netted into an organic

field. Were they " free roam bees " (free roam chickens in the US are

the ones that roam free, but not necessarily outside .. they roam free

in a barn, they roam free in a living room, who knows, but at least

they are free! Wheee!!! *lol*)

>

> The good news is for Irish organic farmers is:

> The government's new policy to declare the island of Ireland as a

> GMO-free zone.

YAY! GMO sux!

> http://www.gmfreeireland.org/

> Not much good really because not a lot of EO's are produced in

> Ireland, in fact melissa is the only one I know of.

> Ruth

> http://www.whitewitch.ie

But y'all distill other things

*Smile*

Chris

http://www.alittleolfactory.com

Oils Herbs Etc ... the oldest and largest non MLM related AT group on

oils_herbs_etc/

[Guest guest]

>

> I have had a request to create an 'ORGANIC FLORAL WATER,ALCOHOL FREE

> BASED SPLASH'!! Why am I getting uptight about it, will you ask?

> Well, first of all, part of the request is that the floral waters

> must be UK Soil Association certified. Now, when you look at the list

> of these accredited floral waters, you end up with 12 most simple

> ones such as lavender, chamomile, rosemary, verbena, orange flowers,

> rose... Vetiver is not even in their list so where do I start? And

> alcohol-free???

>

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. There are

very interesting and differing opinions about the 'organic'

versus 'ethical' which does not solve the dilemna Natural perfumers are

facing and will face even more in their creative endeavours.

Here is the list of the 89 or so oils UK Soil association certified. As

a NP, I use over 300 oils and you will notice that oils like jasmine,

magnolia, rose, costus, osmanthus.... basically all the fine oils for

fine perfumery do not appear. CEDARWOOD has just been removed off the

list.

I believe these are good for nice aromatherapy blends but not for great

perfumes so making an 'organic' perfume is bound to be difficult. Now,

depending on the ORGANIC body, this list can vary LARGELY and this why

the reason of my debate. In my introduction note to this group, I

mentioned my involvement with the coffee-cocoa-pepper farmer's group in

Togo and I DID witness REAL ORGANIC FARMING there, without the use of

any pesticide or fertiliser, just using NATURAL FERTILISERS to help the

pepper grow nicely and the soil humus preserve naturally... This was

most ecological and organic. I also visited and helped those women

producing the organic sheanut butter has mentioned. What I

question is the 'credibility' and 'verification criteria' of the

organic certified bodies, which obviously all differ from one country

to another and also obviously prevent these farmers and women in Togo

from being part of the worldwide economy for 'economic' reasons. I

think that like the USA, there should be one and only one organic body

to regulate the organic labelling. It would bring credibility to

people, less confusion and justification for paying the disgraceful

prices some charge for the organic products in general.

So here is the list for those NP out there who want to take the

challenge of making a nice 'organic' perfume.

UK SOIL ASSOCIATION CERTIFIED ORGANIC ESSENTIAL OILS

ANGELICA

ANISEED

BASIL

CADE

CALENDULA

CARAWAY

CARDAMOM

BAY LAUREL

BLACK CUMIN

BLACK PEPPER

CHAMOMILE GERMAN

CHAMOMILE MOROCCO

CHAMOMILE ROMAN

CINNAMON BARK

CINNAMON LEAF

CLARY SAGE

CLOVE BUD

DILL SEED

EUCALYPTUS CITRIODORA

EUCALYPTUS GLOBULUS

EUCALYPTUS RADIATA

GERANIUM EGYPT

GERANIUM BOURBON

GINGER

GRAPEFRUIT

JUNIPER

LABDANUM

LAVENDER

LAVENDIN

LEMON

LEMONGRASS

LIME

LINSEED

MANDARIN RED

MARJORAM

MELISSA

MYRTLE

NEROLI

NIAOULI

NUTMEG

ORANGE

PEPPERMINT

PETITGRAIN

PINE DOUGLAS

PINE

RAVENSARA

ROSE GERANIUM

ROSEMARY

SAGE

SAVORY

TAGETES

TARRAGON

THYME

STAR ANISE

SPRUCE

TEA TREE

TURPENTINE

VALERIAN

VANILLA POD

VETIVER

YLANG YLANG I, II, III

Once again, thank you to all of you who are giving some light in this

delicate issue.

Isabelle