Re: Linden Blossom and Lime Blossom

[Guest guest]

Lyn Ayre wrote:

>

> What a very interesting topic...

Hi Lyn....

> I typed 'Linden Blossom and Lime Blossom' into a search engine and

> the first thing to come up was the Wikipedia link below.

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_Blossom

>

> the next link I went to is

> http://www.holisticaroma.co.uk/articles/Lindenblossoms.htm

That's because lime tree is kinda a " slang " name for the the linden

tree...

Lime tree ia also a citrus tree that produces limes...as in what tops

off a vodka/tonic.....

Which is why one always has to query a supplier as to the taxonomic name

of whichever your interested in....

>

> Searching for Citrus aurantium gives me the Bitter Orange tree and

> marmalade. mmmm

Yeah...Citrus aurantium is the bitter orange.....which is bitter orange,

orange flower, neroli, and petitgrain.......

Although petitgrain is out there for other citruses (citrii...?)....

Has other monikers depending upon what yer looking at...vulgaris,

bigarade, and probably some more I don't know about...

Citrus sinensis is the sweet orange...and the blood orange....

Citrus aurantifolia will get ya lime....as in the green fruit, that

is....

--

W. Bourbonais

L'Hermite Aromatique

[Guest guest]

<Lyn Ayre <LynAyre@...> wrote: What a very interesting topic...

I have Tilia Vulgaris from Eden Botanicals. It is absolutely

wonderful and really sweetens up the scent.

I typed 'Linden Blossom and Lime Blossom' into a search engine and

the first thing to come up was the Wikipedia link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_Blossom

the next link I went to is

http://www.holisticaroma.co.uk/articles/Lindenblossoms.htm

Searching for Citrus aurantium gives me the Bitter Orange tree and

marmalade. mmmm

Hope this helps

Warmly,

Lyn

www.scentofnature.net

www.LynAyre.com

604-524-8565>

The scent of linden blossoms will always remind me of early summer. They

bloom in June here and fill the night air with their sweet, honey/jasmine scent.

I will be enjoying them very soon. In fact the first time I smelled jasmine

sambac absolute, it reminded me very much of the linden trees in bloom.

---------------------------------

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

Check outnew cars at Autos.

[Guest guest]

> > I typed 'Linden Blossom and Lime Blossom' into a search engine and

> > the first thing to come up was the Wikipedia link below.

> >

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_Blossom

> >

> > the next link I went to is

> > http://www.holisticaroma.co.uk/articles/Lindenblossoms.htm

>

> That's because lime tree is kinda a " slang " name for the the linden

> tree...

> Lime tree ia also a citrus tree that produces limes...as in what

tops

> off a vodka/tonic.....

>

> Which is why one always has to query a supplier as to the taxonomic

name

> of whichever your interested in....

> >

> > Searching for Citrus aurantium gives me the Bitter Orange tree and

> > marmalade. mmmm

>

> Yeah...Citrus aurantium is the bitter orange.....which is bitter

orange,

> orange flower, neroli, and petitgrain.......

> Although petitgrain is out there for other citruses (citrii...?)....

> Has other monikers depending upon what yer looking at...vulgaris,

> bigarade, and probably some more I don't know about...

>

> Citrus sinensis is the sweet orange...and the blood orange....

>

> Citrus aurantifolia will get ya lime....as in the green fruit, that

> is....

>

> --

> W. Bourbonais

> L'Hermite Aromatique

Hi gary... this is completely confusing. But when I clicked your

Wikpedia link, it became clearer... the British call Linden 'lime',

and lime trees (citrus) cannot grow in Britain... so of course they

don't know what citrus lime flowers smell like.

Citrus lime flowers = orange flowers in scent. I know the fruit is a

bit different scentwise, but the flowers are not.

I have never seen a linden plant/tree live. But I use dried linden

leaves and flowers in tub teas, they are a stress relief, slightly

narcotic, sleep inducing plant that helps insomniacs (ask me what I

know about that). The dried linden smells very similar to linden

blossom absolute, which is a honey-tea type of scent, less 'musty'

and resiny in the dried plant than the flower absolute.

They bear zero resemblance to citrus leaves or flowers. None, nada,

zilch. The dried linden look sort of like poplar tree leaves, and

smell like slightly honey'd tea. The dried is also used as a

headache, insomnia, migraine, stress relief tea, it is very common

and inexpensive.

The resemblance in the scent between dried linden leaves/blossoms and

citrus lime flowers is about as similar as roses to garlic. That is,

no similarity whatsoever, in any shape form or kind.

Maybe fresh linden flowers smell differently... but again, if you dry

rose petals, it may not smell as nice, but it will at least still

resemble fresh roses, and not smell like mint or garlic.

It is not possible for linden flowers to smell like citrus lime

flowers. They have to be talking about lime flowers, the slang term

for linden flowers in England, a tilia variety, and not citrus of any

kind. Yet the latin for the citrus lime crops up again and again.

I had to clarify, because the posts were all confusing me.

To repeat, citrus aurantifolia smells as much like tilia (any var.),

as roses smell like garlic.

Citrus aurantifolia is also known as Key Lime. Again, my best friend

has a giant tree in her backyard (giant as in mature, key limes are

probably the physically smallest tree of all the citrus at maturity)

and I have smelled the flowers for years.

If a lime absolute/EO were ever made from citrus aurantifolia, it

would smell identical in every detail to neroli or orange blossom

absolute. But cost 10000x more because of the loss of the fruit to

remove the flowers.

Bitter orange fruit is worth absolutely nothing. You can't even feed

it to animals as fodder, and it would further acidify any compost,

something very undesirable since most people have to add lime (the

alkaline ground stone!!) to compost to make it less acidic anyway.

But bitter oranges are THE most robust of the citrus trees.

Bitter orange's commercial use is for providing the rootstock for

grafting desirable citrus (orange, lemon, lime) onto. If the graft

dies, the bitter orange keeps growing out of the rootstock, so you

get a very very hearty healthy tree... that is worthless for anything

except the short lived flowers, which will even ruin the soil beneath

when allowed to fruit. That's probably why it's used for

EO/absolutes, they HAVE to get rid of the flowers to avoid the trees

fruiting.

There is no such thing as citrus aurantifolia absolute. Key limes are

a huge demand produce, and key lime pies and juice are sold around

the world. There probably isn't even enough produced to fill all the

demand for it, thus it's not a cheap fruit. There is no reason anyone

would let you pick the flowers off this hard to grow, relatively rare

citrus, let alone clean out every flower on a tree for a few drops of

scent, distroying the entire crop in fruit for the year from that

tree.

If anyone sold it, they are selling orange blossom absolute, and

lying, or they are selling you adulterated something, and lying.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but it is not possible, and I'd hate to see

anyone get ripped off.

Helen

[Guest guest]

> Hi gary... this is completely confusing. But when I clicked your

> Wikpedia link, it became clearer... the British call Linden 'lime',

> and lime trees (citrus) cannot grow in Britain... so of course they

> don't know what citrus lime flowers smell like.

>

> Citrus lime flowers = orange flowers in scent. I know the fruit is a

> bit different scentwise, but the flowers are not.

I have to disagree here!

First of all, the fruit of the two species is not " a bit " different

scentwise, it VERY different scentwise - c'mon! I'm sure you can tell

the difference in an instant, all of you!

As for the flowers, yes, they are only a bit different, but to say

they are equal would be disrespectful to those flowers

They vary quite a bit, and for the most part, I would say that all

citrus flowers have something in common with the fruit they are going

to turn into, scent wise. Their shapes are quite different as well.

To read about a few of them, I invite you to visit my blog entry from

April 2006, where I have a few photos of a few citrus flowers that

vary quite a bit in their shape and scent. Some are more similar to

each other, but they are definitely not identical!

http://ayalasmellyblog.blogspot.com/2006/04/citrus-blossoms_30.html

> To repeat, citrus aurantifolia smells as much like tilia (any var.),

> as roses smell like garlic.

I have to agree with this (and all of the other things you said about

the dissimilarity between citrus aurantifolia and tilia vulgaris. No

similarity except for the name confusion.

> If a lime absolute/EO were ever made from citrus aurantifolia, it

> would smell identical in every detail to neroli or orange blossom

> absolute. But cost 10000x more because of the loss of the fruit to

> remove the flowers.

That's what I would think - but Mandy did refer to this citrus

aurantifolia flower absolute in her book. So it may be found in some

small quantities somewhere...

> Bitter orange fruit is worth absolutely nothing. You can't even feed

> it to animals as fodder (...)

> Bitter orange's commercial use is for providing the rootstock for

> grafting desirable citrus (orange, lemon, lime) onto. If the graft

> dies, the bitter orange keeps growing out of the rootstock, so you

> get a very very hearty healthy tree... that is worthless for anything

> except the short lived flowers, which will even ruin the soil beneath

> when allowed to fruit. That's probably why it's used for

> EO/absolutes, they HAVE to get rid of the flowers to avoid the trees

> fruiting.

>

> There is no such thing as citrus aurantifolia absolute. Key limes are

> a huge demand produce, and key lime pies and juice are sold around

> the world. There probably isn't even enough produced to fill all the

> demand for it, thus it's not a cheap fruit. There is no reason anyone

> would let you pick the flowers off this hard to grow, relatively rare

> citrus, let alone clean out every flower on a tree for a few drops of

> scent, distroying the entire crop in fruit for the year from that

> tree.

That's what I always thought was the reason for no other citrus

blossoms absolutes being extracted - if you use the flowers, there's

no fruit. And the fruit is too useful to give up on... I'm also

wondering, perhaps because the bitter orange is quite small, there are

probably more flowers as well, and therefore it makes more sense to

produce the absolute. But I haven't seen any literature on that, this

is only me guessing what would be the reason why only bitter orange

blossoms are used for their essences (neroli and orange flower absolute)

> If anyone sold it, they are selling orange blossom absolute, and

> lying, or they are selling you adulterated something, and lying.

> Sorry to sound so harsh, but it is not possible, and I'd hate to see

> anyone get ripped off.

What you're saying makes sense, but perhaps it is possible to obtain

in really small quantities. But I have to say - except for Mandy's

monograph in her Essence and Alchemy, I've seen absolutley no

reference to the citrus lime flower absolute anywhere. Not that I have

all the books in the world, but I do have a few...

Ayala

[Guest guest]

> I have Tilia Vulgaris from Eden Botanicals. It is absolutely

> wonderful and really sweetens up the scent.

I have that one from Eden and it's gorgeous. I use it in my upcoming

linden blossom perfume, to be released in June, called Tirzah, along

with frangipani absolute, mimosa absolute, guiacwood, fokienia, green

lemon and hay :

http://ayalamoriel.com/perfumes.cfm?cata_id=3 & product_id=78 & view=PRODUCT

> the next link I went to is

> http://www.holisticaroma.co.uk/articles/Lindenblossoms.htm

The myth in this link is innacurate!

There are no tillias growing next to oaks in the Mediterranean

countries. The tree that the woman was transformed into and which

grows always near the oaks in that region is pistacia atlantica, from

the pistacio family, and not to be confused with pistacia lentiscus

(the mastic bush) which is used for perfumery. I am well aware of this

myth as I heard it a million times in my youth whenever we saw those

trees growing next to each other. Part of middle eastern upbringing in

nature

There are lots of wrong images of this shrub/tree online. Here are a

few correct ones (many show the lentiscus, which has little red berries):

http://desert.bgu.ac.il/desert/bo/contentnet/siteimgs/Pistacia%20atlantica.jpg

http://www.tiuli.com/flowers/ela_atlantit.JPG

And the flowers of this look like this:

http://www.essenceofjerusalem.biz/pistacia.jpg

> Searching for Citrus aurantium gives me the Bitter Orange tree and

> marmalade. mmmm

Aurantium is the bitter orange, not the lime.

The lime is Citrus aurantifolia. It's very confusing, but all Latin

names are

Ayala

[Guest guest]

Ayala Sender <ayala@...> wrote:

> I have Tilia Vulgaris from Eden Botanicals. It is absolutely

> wonderful and really sweetens up the scent.

I have that one from Eden and it's gorgeous. I use it in my upcoming

linden blossom perfume, to be released in June, called Tirzah, along

.....Ayala

Mine is from et a swop of the other stuff with Caroline Ingraham and

it is amazing.... I am using it in a perfume called Kite for a client in London.

There is a big gorgeous Linden Blossom Tree in Llandovery near Myddfai right

outside a regular venue for exhibitions for welsh quilts and other textile

works. I had been visiting there a few years back and the scent of the

blossoms from the tree was unbelievable.......heady..

Janita

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

>

> There is a big gorgeous Linden Blossom Tree in Llandovery near Myddfai

right outside a regular venue for exhibitions for welsh quilts and other

textile works. I had been visiting there a few years back and the scent

of the blossoms from the tree was unbelievable.......heady..

>

> Janita

>

Yes, Janita, I agree to that description... The European Linden trees

have a heavenly scent. I was hoping to re-create something of that

nature with EB absolute, which is wonderful, but not near the same.

We used to collect Linden blossoms by the bags full, then let them dry -

the whole house smelled divine. then we stuffed them in small pillows to

sleep on, made it into teas, even baths. I'm going to have to plant the

trees.... even though the FDA doesn't consider it safe for internal use

(LOL)

And no, Linden has nothing to do with Lime, or any kind of citrus, even

though the fresh blossoms might have a hint of citrusy-fruity top notes,

along with lots of perfumed honey notes, and something basey, which I

can't pin down from memory alone. It's a complex scent, very light,

intense but complete. Elegant? -I can agree with that, but also fun and

innocent. Not as mature and sensual as the Rose, which is also

elegant... guess elegant needs definition.

ne

[Guest guest]

sblessinghww <sblessinghww@...> wrote:

>

> There is a big gorgeous Linden Blossom Tree in Llandovery near Myddfai

>

> Janita

>

The European Linden trees

have a heavenly scent. I was hoping to re-create something of that

nature with EB absolute, which is wonderful, but not near the same.

>>>>I think when they are out again it will be a good excuse for me to go up

there to smell the linden.... and visit Myddfai..

We used to collect Linden blossoms by the bags full, then let them dry -

the whole house smelled divine. then we stuffed them in small pillows to

>>> how lovely

.. It's a complex scent, very light,

intense but complete. Elegant? -I can agree with that, but also fun and

innocent. Not as mature and sensual as the Rose, which is also

elegant... guess elegant needs definition.

>>>>nice description....... complex and elegant I can relate to that one......

I think how it is diluted is in what format it can play and how the variations

of notes take front or back seat.

Janita http://www.hayspace.co.uk

ne

---------------------------------

Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Tryit now.

[Guest guest]

>

> > Hi gary... this is completely confusing. But when I clicked your

> > Wikpedia link, it became clearer... the British call

Linden 'lime',

> > and lime trees (citrus) cannot grow in Britain... so of course

they

> > don't know what citrus lime flowers smell like.

> >

> > Citrus lime flowers = orange flowers in scent. I know the fruit

is a

> > bit different scentwise, but the flowers are not.

Ayala said:

> I have to disagree here!

> First of all, the fruit of the two species is not " a bit " different

> scentwise, it VERY different scentwise - c'mon! I'm sure you can

tell

> the difference in an instant, all of you!

Helen says:

Um, no, they don't smell different. My friend had a naval orange and

a Key lime growing side by side. When in bloom, they smell the same.

The FRUIT are very different indeed, in color, texture and taste.

Ayala said:

> As for the flowers, yes, they are only a bit different, but to say

> they are equal would be disrespectful to those flowers

> They vary quite a bit, and for the most part, I would say that all

> citrus flowers have something in common with the fruit they are

going

> to turn into, scent wise. Their shapes are quite different as well.

> To read about a few of them, I invite you to visit my blog entry

from

> April 2006, where I have a few photos of a few citrus flowers that

> vary quite a bit in their shape and scent. Some are more similar to

> each other, but they are definitely not identical!

> http://ayalasmellyblog.blogspot.com/2006/04/citrus-blossoms_30.html

Helen says:

Have you smelled the flowers side by side Ayala? I think everyone can

tell the difference between oranges and limes, so you'd make the

assumption that blossoms are equally different. However, the

assumption would be wrong, they don't smell equally different. If

they smell different, I can't see what it is.

I would say it would take a person who could discern the difference

between 2 identical meristemmed Peace roses, one grown in Washington

DC vs one grown in Florida to tell them apart for scent alone. I

couldn't do that, despite the change in climate and conditions. There

aren't that many nuances to detect.

If you can make it down to Central Florida when the orange blossoms

are in bloom... driving down the Hwy, say the I-4 stretch between

Orlando and Tampa, is like no scent experience you ever had.

It lifts your spirits and you feel like... it's almost indescribably

euphoric. I would say getting to do that once in a lifetime for even

1 hour is a memory you will never forget.

> > To repeat, citrus aurantifolia smells as much like tilia (any

var.),

> > as roses smell like garlic.

Ayala said:

> I have to agree with this (and all of the other things you said

about

> the dissimilarity between citrus aurantifolia and tilia vulgaris. No

> similarity except for the name confusion.

Helen said:

> > If a lime absolute/EO were ever made from citrus aurantifolia, it

> > would smell identical in every detail to neroli or orange blossom

> > absolute. But cost 10000x more because of the loss of the fruit

to

> > remove the flowers.

Ayala said:

> That's what I would think - but Mandy did refer to this citrus

> aurantifolia flower absolute in her book. So it may be found in some

> small quantities somewhere...

Helen says:

Or, someone TOLD her something they had was made of lime. I do not

doubt Mandy, and I have the greatest respect for her and her work,

even though I don't know her personally as you do. But unless you

live where citrus are grown, what I posted is not common knowledge

for anyone. How would people not living here know it can't exist, or

how much Key Limes are treasured here?

What would prevent someone from adding a few drops of cold pressed

lime to an orange absolute to slightly change the scent? Since there

is no such thing, they can do whatever they want. We all know the

stories about EO (which is why I grow a huge bed of lemonbalm

myself, and tincture it).

While no one would expect such a thing, it can happen.

And btw... Key Limes are not even limes:P. They are a much smaller

yellowish green fruit that is softer, rounder in shape, and much

sweeter in taste. I guess you can imagine it to be somewhere between

an orange and a lime, they have almost no 'pucker' value. I hope

everyone's tried Key Lime pie, it's not very sour.

Ayala said:

That's what I always thought was the reason for no other citrus

blossoms absolutes being extracted - if you use the flowers, there's

no fruit. And the fruit is too useful to give up on... I'm also

wondering, perhaps because the bitter orange is quite small, there

are

probably more flowers as well, and therefore it makes more sense to

produce the absolute. But I haven't seen any literature on that, this

is only me guessing what would be the reason why only bitter orange

blossoms are used for their essences (neroli and orange flower

absolute)

Helen says:

You are absolutely right there Ayala. Bitter orange is prolific,

tough, disease resistant, fast growing, and much more tolerant of

varied soil conditions. Most citrus are grafted onto them. It makes

no sense to grow from their own far more delicate rootstock for a

nurseryman.

If they used the flowers, they don't have to worry about the fruit

later. If a citrus fruits, it does not GROW... not good for

rootstock, where you want the plant to grow, and have no fruit. Some

citrus take up to 18 months to ripen. They are often picked much

sooner for commercial sale, but our grapefruit tree we always let

ripen til the fruit is ready to fall off... it tastes nothing like a

store bought grapefruit. The difference is as big as home grown

tomatoes vs store tomatoes, which are picked green and treated with

Ethylene gas to hasten the ripening process, but loses taste and

smell for the tradeoff. OR, freesh squeezed orange juice vs

concentrate.

Bitter orange is THE most hardy of all citrus, that's why it's grown,

for the tough rootstock for more delicate citrus... like Key Limes.

I realize it's very hard to test in Canada, but in Central Florida,

where most citrus varieties are grown, you see citrus all over. For

some strange reason tho... our grocery stores here sell California

Navel Oranges, that are 2-4x bigger and heavier than Florida

varieties. Ours are sweeter and juicier (thus juice oranges, and most

juices and concentrates are produced in Central Florida).

Helen earlier said:

> > If anyone sold it, they are selling orange blossom absolute, and

> > lying, or they are selling you adulterated something, and lying.

> > Sorry to sound so harsh, but it is not possible, and I'd hate to

see

> > anyone get ripped off.

Ayala said:

> What you're saying makes sense, but perhaps it is possible to obtain

> in really small quantities. But I have to say - except for Mandy's

> monograph in her Essence and Alchemy, I've seen absolutley no

> reference to the citrus lime flower absolute anywhere. Not that I

have

> all the books in the world, but I do have a few...

Helen says:

Well, the ratio for orange blossom absolute in terms of numbers of

flowers required would be the same for lime I would think (I do not

have a clue how many orange blossoms in lbs are required for how many

oz of absolute or EO).

However, I can give you a guess as to how many flowers in weight a

mature key lime tree can produce... it's a guess, but a semi-educated

guess because I used to pick 1/2 my grapefruit tree's flowers off for

enfleurage (we don't eat many grapefruits anyway, I wanted the

flowers more).

1/2 of a small grapefruit tree 15' tall produces roughly 2-4 packed

CUPS (8oz ea) of flowers. The entire contents of my grapefruit trees

flowers for the entire blooming season can probably fill a quart-1/2

gallon bucket (not picked at once, but over the season). This I would

guess could weigh 1-2lbs... but I doubt it. They are light flowers,

maybe a bit heavier than jasmine, but not much.

How much absolute could 1 lbs of citrus blossom produce? I bet it's

not even 1/4 of an oz, maybe not even 1/8 oz. The price for this

would be 2 or more bushels of fruit.

A hobbyists with a big key lime tree, who doesn't like limes, owns a

distillation machine, or er... the ability to do their own hexane

extraction *cough* might make some EO or absolute... but I doubt

they'd sell or give away their 1/8 oz... which smells identical to

orange absolute made from free bitter orange blossoms.

Helen

* I tried to format this so people could see who wrote what, since I

answered this note the same way, after paragraphs, and the I said now

vs I said before vs Ayala said now is all mixed together. Hope it's

clearer:). I wish would put in a 'quotes' function.

[Guest guest]

On May 4, 2007, at 4:37 PM, helenae02 wrote:

> If you can make it down to Central Florida when the orange blossoms

> are in bloom... driving down the Hwy, say the I-4 stretch between

> Orlando and Tampa, is like no scent experience you ever had.

>

> It lifts your spirits and you feel like... it's almost indescribably

> euphoric. I would say getting to do that once in a lifetime for even

> 1 hour is a memory you will never forget.

I could not agree with this sentiment more. My father's lived outside

of Tampa (Land O Lakes) for more than 30 years, so I did a fair

amount of growing up there. The scent of citrus in winter is one of

my most loved fragrances on earth, just hit-you-in-the-gut

breathtaking. Orange blossom abs and water abs? They're OK, but they

really don't have the supernatural, luminescent quality of the actual

aroma as it floats in the air. I'm determined to make an homage to

that fragrance, if it's the only thing I ever do successfully as a

perfumer.

[Guest guest]

--- helenae02 <helenae@...> wrote:

> Helen says:

> Um, no, they don't smell different. My friend had a

> naval orange and

> a Key lime growing side by side. When in bloom, they

> smell the same.

> The FRUIT are very different indeed, in color,

> texture and taste.

Hi Helen,

I believe Ayala has mentioned before that she grew up

in Israel and has lots of experience with citrus

trees. It's possible that one nose can detect a

difference between the scents of lime blossom and

orange blossom while another cannot. I, on the other

hand, grew up in the Baltimore/Washington area and

have very little to say about citrus trees.

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