Re: Animal Scents in perfumes

[Guest guest]

Edited to correct top post and trimmed...

On Apr 12, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Nikki Sherritt wrote:

> I know this might be a touchy subject for some, but I am a tender-

> hearted soul with much admiration for our planet and all the

> creatures on it.

>

> I don't know how many of you currently use these elements in perfume,

> but I am concerned that this cruel and antiquated way of getting

> musks is still in style.

<snip>

Couldn't agree with you more. I was a strict vegan for about 15

years; in order for me to live well with MS, I am forced to eat meat

and dairy again (it's a matter of getting enough calories). But I

still sense the philosophical opposition I always had. I plan to

smell civet and castoreum so I know what they are and represented in

the history of perfume. I have made a resolution only to use

ambergris, Africa Stone (from the rock hyrax), and beeswax absolute

in my own work. But having that animal component I consider

absolutely essential. My aim is to make natural perfumes which

enhance the allure of the wearer, point blank; a potential name for a

would-be business of mine is Eros Fragrances. I do not believe that

vegetable equivalents (costus, styrax, etc.) could achieve the same

effect as real animal pheromones.

[Guest guest]

On Apr 12, 2007, at 12:51 PM, Adam Gottschalk wrote:

> My aim is to make natural perfumes which

> enhance the allure of the wearer, point blank; a potential name for a

> would-be business of mine is Eros Fragrances. I do not believe that

> vegetable equivalents (costus, styrax, etc.) could achieve the same

> effect as real animal pheromones.

Nikki's Response:

Hey Adam-

Knew you would respond! OK, I do understand that, but I just ask

(politely and respectfully) that you really take a look at this

" history " . We live in a world that no longer needs to mimic the

practices of the past that are barbaric frankly and antiquated, not

artistic at all because we have " evolved " as a more humane society.

Do you actually know how these pheromones are taken from these

animals? Do you know how they live? My question is: is it so

important to have this ingredient that you are wiling to go to one of

the farms and look these creatures in the eye and say " sorry, but we

have to get this from you for our perfumes. " The process of creating

perfumes should be respected, but our job as humans is more

important. We have to leave this earth knowing that we did as little

harm as possible. It is our moral duty which completely outweighs

our artistic wants & needs. Thanks for your reply. We probably

won't agree on this in the near future (or far), but please just make

sure you know what is happening in this area. We cannot turn our

heads hoping that the process is not abusive and cruel. More than

likely, it is. My experience in this area says that most people

(esp. in foreign countries such as Ethiopia) don't see these animals

as anything but profit. I don't think that they were put on this

earth for our perfuming needs......

Take care,

_Nikki

[Guest guest]

My experience in this area says that most people

> (esp. in foreign countries such as Ethiopia) don't see these animals

> as anything but profit. I don't think that they were put on this

> earth for our perfuming needs......

>

> Take care,

> _Nikki

>

Maybe they COULD just let the civets run free through the coffee

plantations, eating the coffee beans (which they love). Then, maybe

they could wash the civety-part off the coffee beans and sell that

separately, and then sell the civet-scented coffee beans (which are

already available -- search our archives). I wonder..... (This topic

just keeps reappearing here, doesn't it?)

Andrine

[Guest guest]

Nikki Sherritt <nsherritt@...> wrote:

On Apr 12, 2007, at 12:51 PM, Adam Gottschalk wrote:

> My aim is to make natural perfumes which

> enhance the allure of the wearer, point blank; a potential name for a

> would-be business of mine is Eros Fragrances. I do not believe that

> vegetable equivalents (costus, styrax, etc.) could achieve the same

> effect as real animal pheromones.

Nikki's Response:

Hey Adam-

Knew you would respond! OK, I do understand that, but I just ask

(politely and respectfully) that you really take a look at this

" history " . We live in a world that no longer needs to mimic the

practices of the past that are barbaric frankly and antiquated, not

artistic at all because we have " evolved " as a more humane society.

Do you actually know how these pheromones are taken from these

animals? Do you know how they live? My question is: is it so

important to have this ingredient that you are wiling to go to one of

the farms and look these creatures in the eye and say " sorry, but we

have to get this from you for our perfumes. " The process of creating

perfumes should be respected, but our job as humans is more

important. We have to leave this earth knowing that we did as little

harm as possible. It is our moral duty which completely outweighs

our artistic wants & needs. Thanks for your reply. We probably

won't agree on this in the near future (or far), but please just make

sure you know what is happening in this area. We cannot turn our

heads hoping that the process is not abusive and cruel. More than

likely, it is. My experience in this area says that most people

(esp. in foreign countries such as Ethiopia) don't see these animals

as anything but profit. I don't think that they were put on this

earth for our perfuming needs......

Take care,

_Nikki

Nikki I don't think he wants to promote cruelty..... here is part of the post

again :-)

>>>>. I have made a resolution only to use

ambergris, Africa Stone (from the rock hyrax), and beeswax absolute

in my own work. But having that animal component I consider

absolutely essential.

Janita

Ascent http://www.hayspace.co.uk

Natural Perfume travel log http://www.janitasattars.blogspot.com

Natural Perfume and Embroidery Project

http://www.flowersofmyddfaiproject.blogspot.com

---------------------------------

Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Tryit now.

[Guest guest]

At 10:48 PM 4/12/2007, you wrote:

>

>My experience in this area says that most people

> > (esp. in foreign countries such as Ethiopia) don't see these animals

> > as anything but profit. I don't think that they were put on this

> > earth for our perfuming needs......

> >

> > Take care,

> > _Nikki

> >

>

>Maybe they COULD just let the civets run free through the coffee

>plantations, eating the coffee beans (which they love). Then, maybe

>they could wash the civety-part off the coffee beans and sell that

>separately, and then sell the civet-scented coffee beans (which are

>already available -- search our archives). I wonder..... (This topic

>just keeps reappearing here, doesn't it?)

Andrine, animal scents just keep on keeping on, people are

fascinated, repelled and curious.

About the free-range civets ;-) You're confusing them with the kopi

lowak (here we go with that thread again, check the archives) that

eats coffee beans, excretes them and people gather it, wash it (oh,

yuck!!) and then roast and sell it to crazy people (yes, we have some

of them on this group, and you're crazy, crazy, lol!!!) who brew and

drink it. In the archives you'll find a link to a picture of the

lumpy turd. Lord have mercy. Poop coffee.

Anyway, back to the civet. It's an excretion of the anal gland, not

the rectum that is so coveted. Aren't you glad you asked? Having

breakfast anyone?

Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://AnyasGarden.com

Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://ArtisanNaturalPerfumers.org

Natural Perfumers Community Group

/

Natural Perfumery Blog http://AnyasGarden.Blogspot.com/

[Guest guest]

> Anyway, back to the civet. It's an excretion of the anal gland, not

> the rectum that is so coveted. Aren't you glad you asked? Having

> breakfast anyone?

Yeah, I remember. I'm just trying to offer up anything that would be

an alternative to keeping an animal in a cage and scraping and

squeezing its rear end on a regular basis. What a life. I wouldn't

want to live in a cage and have my bottom messed with all the time.

I wouldn't wish that on anything, not even a bug -- well, maybe a few

politicians... <grin>

But seriously, if folks want to have something close to that animal

smell, and if they choose to get it from something that is a more

naturally occurring waste product, and if it's better for some

animals, I say look into it. See if it's viable. It might not be

for me, but if it's kinder to animals, and it gets the job done so

folks have something approximating a civet scent, go for it.

Sorry to be on the gross-out path -- not my intention -- but if we're

talking poo and other icky things, (Oh, wait -- hyraceum, anyone?

Mine's smelling rather lovely just now.), in the late 70s, there were

hair care products that contained placenta -- one product in

particular named it outright. The name on the bottle: Placenta

Plus. That totally creeped me out. I mean, why not go rub your head

in a dead animal and walk around in it?

Mushrooms are often grown in sterilized manure. How many folks wash

their mushrooms with soap before they eat them? The kopi lowak stuff

gets washed. I'm just wondering if they could somehow gently

sterilize the stuff that gets washed off the beans -- UV light or

something? Or introduce into it some sort of beneficial microbe that

won't harm the civety scent, but will eat the bacteria?

I dunno. Just offering up stuff for speculation. A what if. I'm

just such a serious animal lover that I think speculating about any

alternative, just to see where it could go, might not be a bad

thing. I can't buy the idea that people are superior to animals

(which is what I believe makes people kill, maim, or abuse animals

for fun or profit). We're just so much less tough. We need to

manufacture things that animals already have: clothes, wings,

societal rules/laws/morals. If we didn't have those opposable

thumbs, we'd be SOL. (Oh, jeez, Andrine's on another rant....)

Oopsie. I'm shuttin' up now... I knew I should've eaten breakfast

before I started reading here...

Thanks!

Andrine

[Guest guest]

What a touchy subject and it is always full of controversy! I do

use animal products. There is nothing like the pure magic they add to

a blend. They are so very concentrated. I diluted 1/2 milligram in 4

ounces of alcohol. Of this tincture, I add about 10 drops to an 8

ounce bottle of fragrance to get the desired effect. I probably will

never need any more than the 1/2 milligram for the rest of my life.

Is that such a huge sacrifice?

I truly respect those of you who are willing to do without the

use of animal products in your life, however the problem of animal

abuse is so much greater in so many other areas. For example, the

cows, pigs and chickens who are mistreated in the millions everyday

so that we can have steak, milk, yogurt, eggs, bacon, glue, leather,

and everything else, dwarves the issue of civets getting their butts

scraped and irritated. What about all the innocent human beings

getting killed in the horrible wars, or dying from AIDS? The world is

full of misery, which is a part of life.

Have you driven today? What about the effect of CO2. One can go

on and on. I use a miniscule bit of animal product in some of my

fragrances and some people treat me like I am the devil incarnate. I

get such nasty letters just because I have different values! I love

animals, I have four chickens and a pig with incredible personalities.

They are beautiful loving creatures and I like to eat some meat in my

diet. I can't reconcile that. It is just life, which is so unfair. It

never will be black and white.

Creating perfume is an art, and using animal products

occasionally is part of the way I create this art. If some people

don't like it, then do not use my products.

-

another rambling diatribe

>

> I know this might be a touchy subject for some, but I am a tender-

> hearted soul with much admiration for our planet and all the

> creatures on it.

>

> I don't know how many of you currently use these elements in

perfume,

> but I am concerned that this cruel and antiquated way of getting

> musks is still in style.

>

> I would just ask that anyone considering using Civet, Musk Deer or

> Beaver products please read some of these. I understand that not

> every single creature will be saved from cruelty, but I think we

as

> budding or seasoned perfumers can make a statement that you don't

> have to make any creature suffer just so that we humans can smell

> good. This would also apply to those endangered plant species as

> well. We have to be respectful of them if we are going to make

are

> business from Mother Nature's creations.

>

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/387033.stm

>

> http://ww2.wspa-international.org/action/civets/civet01.html

>

> http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Synthetic-Musk-Risks24mar99.htm

>

> http://www.wspa.org.au/02news/press_office/04press_civetfarms.html

>

> I feel like my goal here on this planet to to work with nature,

not

> against. We need to find ways to steer clear of oils that come

from

> questionable sources as well as animal.

> We are a gluttonous society still and feel like we need to get

what

> we want at the cost of every other living thing on the planet.

>

> Thanks for letting me vent. I absolutely respect each and every

> person's choice. just please make sure that your choices are

educated!

>

> Nikki

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Apr 15, 2007, at 11:05 PM, mizperfumelady wrote:

> truly respect those of you who are willing to do without the

> use of animal products in your life, however the problem of animal

> abuse is so much greater in so many other areas. For example, the

> cows, pigs and chickens who are mistreated in the millions everyday

> so that we can have steak, milk, yogurt, eggs, bacon, glue, leather,

> and everything else, dwarves the issue of civets getting their butts

> scraped and irritated. What about all the innocent human beings

> getting killed in the horrible wars, or dying from AIDS? The world is

> full of misery, which is a part of life.

> Have you driven today? What about the effect of CO2. One can go

> on and on. I use a miniscule bit of animal product in some of my

> fragrances and some people treat me like I am the devil incarnate. I

> get such nasty letters just because I have different values! I love

> animals, I have four chickens and a pig with incredible personalities.

> They are beautiful loving creatures and I like to eat some meat in my

> diet. I can't reconcile that. It is just life, which is so unfair. It

> never will be black and white.

> Creating perfume is an art, and using animal products

> occasionally is part of the way I create this art. If some people

> don't like it, then do not use my products.

> -

-

So your reasoning for continuing to use these secretions are for

" your art " and because it is the lesser of 2 (ok, a gazillion)

evils? Yes, I drive, and guess what I also offset my CO2 output in

my everyday activities making our home carbon neutral. I also work

with organizations to help rescue abandoned, abused, chained &

otherwise mistreated animals (and donate to others). I say this

because I do everything that I can everyday to make sure that I am

being respectful of this planet. Even the resins, leaves, rinds,

flower extracts I use I am constantly doing everything I can to make

sure they are coming from ethical sources and that it isn't a

component that is endangered or abused (Rosewood, for example). The

other abuses do not dwarf anything. Abuse is abuse and abuse is

wrong. Whether you are a direct part of it or 2 or 3 degrees

separated from it, you are contributing to a business that treats

these animals as commodities and nothing else. You cannot use all of

the other bad things in the world as a reason to continue doing bad

things. I have read extensively about the use of these secretions

and how they are gathered. I am reposting the info from another post

of mine on this subject that addresses the " art " of using these

components:

" We live in a world that no longer needs to mimic the practices of

the past that are barbaric frankly and antiquated, not artistic at

all because we have " evolved " as a more humane society.

Do you actually know how these pheromones are taken from these

animals? Do you know how they live? My question is: is it so

important to have this ingredient that you are wiling to go to one of

the farms and look these creatures in the eye and say " sorry, but we

have to get this from you for our perfumes. " The process of creating

perfumes should be respected, but our job as humans is more

important. We have to leave this earth knowing that we did as little

harm as possible. It is our moral duty which completely outweighs

our artistic wants & needs. Thanks for your reply. We probably

won't agree on this in the near future (or far), but please just make

sure you know what is happening in this area. We cannot turn our

heads hoping that the process is not abusive and cruel. More than

likely, it is. My experience in this area says that most people

(esp. in foreign countries such as Ethiopia) don't see these animals

as anything but profit. I don't think that they were put on this

earth for our perfuming needs...... "

Can you tell I am passionate about this? Thank you for letting me

rant again. I do understand what you are saying I just think that

maybe the practice needs a little revamping......

Thanks for your thoughts .

Nikki

------Lord, please help me to be the person my dog thinks that I am.