Guest guest Posted March 31, 2001 Report Share Posted March 31, 2001 Rajinder, in answer to your question about what we think about Biotest products: The prohormone sprays appear to be good. We've used them and made gains. I happen to like Grow! (Jim doesn't, due to taste). What I like is that it's higher in protein, which makes it easy to mix with a carb (I used to make rice pudding with it). As far as their other products, I really can't comment as I haven't used them. Tribex is not for women and Jim is too old for it; we generally steer clear of supplements that are non-steroidal anabolics such as Methoxy-7, Ribose-C (looks like sugar to me), tribulus, and some of the guggul products on the market because we simply don't see a cost benefit or any hard science backing them up. Regarding the MD-6 (their thermogenic), it probably works as well as other brands, and their claim that it will not make you shakey certainly wasn't true when Jim tried it. I never go near thermogenics because I can't tolerate most of them. I have had to settle for pushing myself away from the table. What is troubling to us, of late, is Biotest's marketing hype, which you have also mentioned. Jim sent a link from the MD-6 ad page to a scientist friend in Dallas; her response was that she had never seen anything quite so ridiculous or riddled with hype. On top of the new Surge, they are now coming out with T2, which I asked about on the list and hope someone can give me some answers. A friend of ours just sent us an e-mail asking about it and included the very revealing tale that follows: " . . . I have been tracking Biotest's stories on T2 for the past year and during that time they have written some conflicting things. In the current Tmag issue which came out yesterday, Biotest mentioned " T2 is not thyroid-suppressive like T3 " . However, in issue #119 they wrote " T2 does suppress endogenous thyroid function to a degree. " Again, in yesterday's issue(#150) they wrote that the manufacturing plant in South America suffered an explosion in the past but nobody was killed. But, again in issue#119, they wrote the plant explosion killed some of the workers. Finally, in issue#93 they wrote " DIT [,diiodothyronine (3,5-diiodo-l-thyronine) ] i.e. T2, will rapidly decrease your TSH levels thereby shutting down your thyroid gland. " Maybe I'm over-scrutinizing their comments, but the gaps in their stories leads me to wander if the T2 product is safe. . . . " Regarding his last comment on TSH levels (thyroid stimulating hormone), in the most recent issue it was stated that T2 had no effect on TSH. What gives here? What I'm waiting for are Grow! bars, but they are delayed for some reason. I know several of the T-Mag staff personally and wish they would stay away from market pressures that lead to hype that damages credibility. As you will note from this week's Atomic Dog, they are now being sued by some other supplement companies for trashing their marketing hype. I have heard rumors about one of the suing companies, and from what I've seen, their ads make Biotest look like wussies. " 80 pounds of muscle in 4 weeks. " Yeah, sure! As Krista pointed out, perhaps it's not all muscle. Now, let's see, where'd I put that bottle of Synthol? Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon Venice, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2001 Report Share Posted July 8, 2001 Since the topic of Biotest and their products have come up, they have on their web site: ********* Biotest T2T Pro-Thyroid Formula is, without a doubt, the single, most-potent compound for fat loss ever to be released in the supplement industry. In fact, it's the most potent non-prescription thyroid-hormone analogue available. Bottom line is, T2 is every bit as potent as T3, which means you now have an over-the-counter supplement that can truly maximize actual thyroid function just as effectively as the prescription drug, T3! ****** Many of the fitness models (male and female) are known to use thyroid enhancers. The site goes on with: ************ T2, on the other hand, can help you with fat loss like T3, because it's as potent and effective as T3, but without the negative side effects. In fact, according to the FDA's archives, there isn't a single case of an adverse reaction reported from its use. ********* Is this because T2 is in fact better or is it because no one has made a report 'yet'. Are there any thoughts on this approach to fat loss? Siscoe Montreal, Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2001 Report Share Posted August 2, 2001 Aerobic exercise experienced by reading about MD6 aside, I've used 3 Biotest products that I think are good. The first is Grow!, although I much preferred when it was available in a canister rather than in packets (as it is now). It has a higher protein content than many other MRP's which makes it ideal for adding your own carb sources when you want to (such as maltodextrin, rice crispies, cooked rice -- the vanilla flavor makes divine rice pudding). I also feel their topical prohormone sprays are good. The only problem for most men is that it's hard to find a spot to put 70 sprays of the stuff on. It also tends to dry into a white powder if you're not careful and get too close. All the prohormone sprays are alcohol based, so you'd best use them with the windows open if you don't want to asphyxiate! I tried Power Drive; it was horrid tasting. I left it on the shelf and it turned into a rock, even with the lid on, probably due to the humid climate. It did come in handy to throw at the neighbor's un-neutered cat when he sang on the fence one night at 2 a.m. I'll bet he still has a green spot on his butt. Of late, I've grown extremely suspicious of Biotest's products due to their over-hyped marketing schemes (I have the same feelings toward Muscle Tech for the same reason) and, their contradictory statements from one article to the next and from month to month. Rosemary Wedderburn-Vernon Venice, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2001 Report Share Posted August 3, 2001 Rosemary: The research on Androspray by Biotest, does not indicate that it works to increase lean body mass. I suspect that any anecdotal reports people have about prohormones working are due to an increase in body fat that they perceive as an increase in lean body mass. I have worked with several different researchers and one consistent trend we noticed is that prohormones actually increased body fat, not decreased it. This study will be published in the near future (they are in review). Once they are accepted I can alert interested readers to the journal. Prohormones do not work well to increase testosterone (or nortestosterone) as there is only a limited amount of enzymes available to convert these agents. Unless companies can figure out how to upregulate enzyme production and/or activity the delivery method will not matter. It will simply mean you have more prohormone in the system, not more of the desired androgen. Tom Incledon Plantation, FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2001 Report Share Posted August 3, 2001 Thanks Tom! That is the response I was looking for, BEFORE shelling out any money on these things. Mitch Armentrout Harper Woods MI USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2001 Report Share Posted August 3, 2001 " Incledon " <hpsinc@m...> wrote: > Rosemary: > > The research on Androspray by Biotest, does not indicate that it > works to increase lean body mass. I suspect that any anecdotal > reports people have about prohormones working are due to an > increase in body fat that they perceive as an increase in lean > body mass. I have worked with several different researchers and > one consistent trend we noticed is that prohormones actually > increased body fat, not decreased it. This study will > be published in the near future (they are in review). Once they > are accepted I can alert interested readers to the journal. We can only hope that this study will not exhibit the same questionable methodology and twisted reporting as the King study on androstenedione which became a JAMA centerpiece. Recent history dictates that we should be just as suspicious of the agendas of prohormone opponents as we are of those who sell them. -- M. Wooster, Ohio, USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 This is only anecdotal evidence but it is evidence given to us from gym members, who would have no particular agenda for or against specific prohormones or prohormones in general as they tried them on our recomendation or for their own personal reasons. We have a Tanida scale at our gym which tests weight and bodyfat (I know this is not completely accurate as your weight and fat will vary some depending on how hydrated you are) and nearly all of those who were using some of the more powerful prohormones, such as Decasomal when it was legal (no experience with 1AD since we don't carry it yet at our gym and we just recently got the Biotest line of products so no experiences there either) experienced a gain in weight and strength greater than they had been experiencing without the hormones. They also saw their fat decrease significantly. These gains may be attributed to the psychological adnvantage of training harder, however, many of them also experienced some other indicators of higher testosterone levels, such as acne and increased sex drive. The sex drive part could also be psycholigical but I don't think the acne could be, unless they stopped bathing too. Anyway, just thought I would throw the observations of some of our gym members into this discussion. Chance Donohue Dillon MT www.edsgym.com angus_young74@... > > Rosemary: > > > > The research on Androspray by Biotest, does not indicate that it > > works to increase lean body mass. I suspect that any anecdotal > > reports people have about prohormones working are due to an > > increase in body fat that they perceive as an increase in lean > > body mass. I have worked with several different researchers and > > one consistent trend we noticed is that prohormones actually > > increased body fat, not decreased it. This study will > > be published in the near future (they are in review). Once they > > are accepted I can alert interested readers to the journal. > > We can only hope that this study will not exhibit the same > questionable methodology and twisted reporting as the King study > on androstenedione which became a JAMA centerpiece. Recent > history dictates that we should be just as suspicious of the > agendas of prohormone opponents as we are of those who sell them. > -- > M. > Wooster, Ohio, USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2001 Report Share Posted August 10, 2001 > Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:16:09 -0400 > From: " Incledon " <hpsinc@...> > >The research on Androspray by Biotest, does not indicate that it works to >increase lean body mass. I suspect that any anecdotal reports people have >about prohormones working are due to an increase in body fat that they >perceive as an increase in lean body mass. I have worked with several >different researchers and one consistent trend we noticed is that >prohormones actually increased body fat, not decreased it. This study will >be published in the near future (they are in review). Once they are >accepted I can alert interested readers to the journal. > >Prohormones do not work well to increase testosterone (or nortestosterone) >as there is only a limited amount of enzymes available to convert these >agents. Unless companies can figure out how to upregulate enzyme production >and/or activity the delivery method will not matter. It will simply mean >you have more prohormone in the system, not more of the desired androgen.> What many fail to consider, considering Rosemary's perspective and my own, is the gender differences in steroidogenesis and metabolism of sex hormones. That applies to exogenous as well as endogenous. Vast generalizations regarding the prohormone supplements are based on studies with male subjects, and many of these are poorly conducted or concluded. Even less data is available on prohormones and women. The most notable study detected a 6-7 fold (n=1) and a 4-fold (n=1) rise in plasma testosterone measured at 60 minutes after oral administration of 100 mg of androstenedione to two women. (1) If one considers the pathways of androgen biosynthesis, there are notable gender differences: * While two biosynthetic pathways are present in both genders, testosterone production in men is primarily via the delta5-pathway (androstenediol as the immediate precursor). DHEAS and androstenedione are secreted by the adrenal in men, but testosterone is secreted almonst entirely by the testis. (2) * The enzymes for conversion in the delta5-pathway are present in higher concentrations in men than women. * Both pathways exist in women as well for androgen production. However, the principle pathway is the delta4-pathway, with the precursor for testosterone being androstenedione. ~60% of plasma testosterone in women is reported to derive from plasma androstenedione. (3) * Enzymes for conversion to testosterone in the delta4-pathway are higher in women than men.(2) So considering this and the fact that women typically have lower baseline levels of testosterone than men, there will be a differntial gender response to prohormone supplementation. Consider that when ascribing blank generalizations to prohormone supplementation. Elzi Volk Austin campus, TX 1. Mahesh VB, et al. The in vivo conversion of DHEA and androstenedione to testosterone in the human. Acta Endocrinol 1962; 41:400 2. Various endocrinology/hormone texts. 3. Haning, RV, et al. Testosterone free index correlates best with DHEAS. Fertil Steril 1981; 36:757. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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