Re: Gymnastics and Strength

[Guest guest]

I know that this subject was discussed a month ago but, I sometimes save the

ones I am interested in to read when I have time. I wanted to make a

comment regarding 's post on strength in gymnastics. I was lucky

enough to work as an athletic trainer at the OTC in Colorado Springs last

summer and covered the men's gymnastics the 2 weeks I was there. I talked

at length with many of the gymnasts and asked them about their training. In

particular, I talked to Roethlisberg the gymnast that went to Sydney

for us (at 30 years old) and he told me that he had never lifted weights in

a gym. However, he was always the first to workout and the last to leave

and he did alot of weight belt work (have you ever noticed his lats?). In

fact, none of the national team gymnasts I spoke with lifted weights other

than their gymnastic routines/strengthing. Just curious why the Olympic

lifts for your gymnasts?

Kathy , MS, ATC

Healthy Concepts - Gymstrada consultant

Virginia Beach, VA

>From: " Ayars " <jayars35@...>

>Reply-Supertraining

>Supertraining

>Subject: Gymnastics and Strength

>Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:16:52 -0000

>

>Lots of interesting comments from Dr. Siff and Mark on gymnastics

>strength. Our gymnasts work on the Olympic lifts 4 days/week in their off

>season and three days /week during competition season. They also do many

>body weight exercises.

>

>Here are a few:

>

>1. Straddling a balance beam supporting your weight on your hands. Now

>rise to a handstand. They do this from the floor also starting from a

>sitting position.

>

>2. Hanging from a bar with the legs in a straddle. Now pull the legs up

>until the feet are behind the head.

>

>3. Handstand pushups.

>

>4. In a handstand position, jump across the floor. The push now comes

>from

>the upper torso.

>

>5. We do lots of handstands at our gym. Once a week, we end practice with

>a handstand contest. All the kids go to a handstand. The last one

> " standing " gets to leave, then we do it again with the ones remaining until

>everyone is gone. We do this with our developmental team also.

>

>6. Lots of handstands on the balance beam with the legs in various

>positions.

>

>7. We do the same things with our boys' team except we substitute the

>horse

>for the beam.

>

>8. This is another drill we do which is not exactly strength related. We

>have each kid do a 50 yard sprint, then get on the balance beam or pommel

>horse and do a routine. The effect of the sprint creates a response

>similiar to the nervous response one has in competition. A couple years

>ago, I had the opportunity to do some firearms training with a member of

>the

>US Army's Delta Force. He said they used this drill in their firearms

>training... run a sprint, then immediately have to pick up a firearm and

>shoot. I thought it would be worth trying in the gym. It is.

>

>One of the coaches at my gym was a gymnast at Penn State. He can do

>amazing

>things on all the apparatus, but especially rings and horse. Static holds

>etc. that I could never do. He's also an excellent rock climber (we have a

>rock climbing wall in our gym that we use in our teams training also).

>He's

>not a good weightlifter, though.

>

>On the other hand, I cannot do any meaningful gymnastics, but I'm a decent

>lifter, not great but decent. Actually until I bought this gym, I had

>never

>been to a gymnastics meet. Everytime I watch those kids, I am amazed at

>what they can do strength wise.

>

> Ayars

>Sandhills Academy of Gymnastics

>P.O. Box 3789

>Pinehurst

>NC 28374

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Hello

>I talked to Roethlisberg the gymnast that went to Sydney

>for us (at 30 years old) and he told me that he had never lifted weights in

>a gym.

This has been my observation of gymnatics in New Zealand. We are fortunte to

have a steady influx of Russian and Chinese coaches into most areas. None of

these coaches use weight training and most in fact discourage it. Any

conditioning

is done within the gymnastics hall using apparatus, body weight and partner

exercise.

>However, he was always the first to workout and the last to leave

>and he did alot of weight belt work (have you ever noticed his lats?).

Chances are this chap will spend 4-6 hours a day doing each gymnastic component.

Within each there will be several elements to practice. Each element usually

gets practiced up to 10 times. There are 6 components to men's artistic

gymnastics.

At the end of the day this poor fellow (self inflicted of course) has done about

300 sets of 1 rep at maximal effort.

>In

>fact, none of the national team gymnasts I spoke with lifted weights other

>than their gymnastic routines/strengthing.

Plus add in the time that male gymmasts must spend developing flexibility.

>Just curious why the Olympic

>lifts for your gymnasts?

I guess some strength and conditioning coach told them that they had to do

weights

because studies show that squats improve vertical jump in vollyball players.

Here's a good one for all the S & C people seeing they couldn't figure out an

weight training exercise to aid my performing splits better...

A good way to spot a good gymnast is to watch them doing a handstand. A straight

handstand shows strength, balance and flexibility. Even better if one can

maintain

this while doing routines at speed. What Olympic Lifting exercise could one

do to improve a gymnasts handstand better than doing handstands themselves?

Cheers

Hamish Ferguson

Christchurch, New Zealand

[Guest guest]

Kathy, I do not work with gymnast myself (I work with figure skaters

however) however I have two articles that might be of some interest

to you. I'll only put the abstracts and intros here and I'll give you

the link for the full articles:

1. Should Female Gymnasts Lift Weights? by A Sands PhD, Jeni

R McNeal PhD, Monem Jemni MS, H Delong BS

Abstract:

Gymnastics coaches and administrators in the US are reluctant to

include weight training with female gymnasts because they believe it

produces detrimental increases in muscle mass. However, weight

training based on high-intensity low-repetition sets is likely to

improve the performance of most gymnasts by increasing strength with

minimal muscle hypertrophy.

Intoduction:

Gymnasts must remain on the lean side of lean to be effective

competitors at the highest level ( et al., 1983; Sands et al.,

1992, 1995). Not surprisingly, concern about excess body weight is

common in gymnastics (Anorexia/Bulimia Association, 1994; American

College of Sports Medicine, 1997; Leglise, 1998; Nattiv & Lynch,

1994). Female gymnasts and their coaches in the US are therefore

reluctant to use weight training, in spite of abundant evidence of

the benefits of weight training for sports requiring strength. Their

concern is that the gymnast will develop excessive body and muscle

mass ( " bulk up " ) and thus become too heavy to perform effectively.

Gymnasts and other athletes who must move their body weight as the

primary resistance need to train for strength relative to body mass

rather than absolute strength (Poliquin, 1991; Sands, Mikesky, &

, 1991). As the gymnast matures, she is likely to gain

absolute strength but lose relative strength as her body mass

increases (Sands et al., 1991; Irvin et al., 1992; Zatsiorsky, 1995).

Female gymnasts can increase reliance on motor skills to compensate

for a decline in relative strength (Poliquin, 1991; Zatsiorsky,

1995), but strength training aimed at increasing relative strength is

another important approach.

While some gymnastics coaches are reluctant to prescribe weight

training, most include strength training in the form of repetitions

of strength-oriented gymnastics skills ( & , 1990;

Hullner, 1989; Menkhin, 1978; Sands, 1990; Sands et al., 1995; Sands

& McNeal, 1997; Singh et al., 1987). Many gymnastics skills have a

large strength component, so separating the skill performance from

strength training is somewhat arbitrary (Chu, 1994; , 1980;

Hullner, 1989). All gymnastics coaches would agree that development

of strength through repetition of gymnastics skills is appropriate.

However, skills at the elite level are becoming ever more difficult,

and extra time for training is at a premium. Weight training would be

orthopedically less demanding than extra skill repetitions and

require less time for these gymnasts. In this article we will

describe weight training that can develop strength with minimal

hypertrophy, and we will address coaches' concerns about the effects

of weight training on muscle size and body build.

The link for the full article is:

http://sportsci.org/jour/0003/was.html

2. Strength Training Fundamentals in Gymnastics Conditioning by

J. Major,

Motor Behavior Laboratory Dept. of Exercise and Sports

Science University of Utah Salt Lake City, Utah

One of the most important insights of modern training is that a

highly developed level of strength cannot be maintained even by

intensive performance of the event itself (Bührle and Werner, 1984).

This insight has proven to be true in such very different events as

swimming, cross-country skiing, and gymnastics. Gymnastics alone will

not develop nor even maintain an adequate level of strength for

advanced gymnastics (Oppel, 1967). Special conditioning must be

performed, besides countless elements, combinations, parts, and full

routines. Inconsistent strength training can explain the decline in

performance, or at least the stagnation, of a number of athletes who

had promising performances during the preparatory season. Once those

athletes started to compete, their results did not live up to these

expectations (Bührle and Werner, 1984). Gymnastics specialists have

warned against decreasing strength training during the competition

season (Borrmann, 1978: Hartig and Buchmann, 1988; Plotkin, Rubin and

Arkaev, 1983; Ukran, 1969).

Special strength for gymnastics training must answer the demands of

gymnastics. The principle of specificity implies that the exercises

used in training should be similar to the exercises that must be

performed in the competition routine. Therefore, we might imagine

that the best training for gymnastics would be more gymnastics.

However, long ago this was proven not to be the case (Borrmann, 1978;

Oppel, 1967; Plotkin, Rubin, and Arkaev, 1983). Special training is

necessary to develop the strength and power in the athlete sufficient

for correct technical performance of skills (Hartig and Buchmann,

1988; Oppel, 1967). Repetition of the skill alone will not guarantee

even a minimum level of strength to perform the skill correctly.

The observation that a highly developed level of strength cannot be

maintained even by the most intensive performance of the movements of

the competition routines does not contradict the principle of

specificity, but completes it (Bührle and Werner, 1984; , 1991;

Verchoshanskij, 1985). Special strength training is necessary, but it

must specifically meet the demands of the event, in this case

gymnastics skills. What is specific for gymnastics will be discussed

below.

The link for the full article is:

<http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/publications/technique/1996/8/strength-training.h\

tml>

Christian Thibaudeau

Quebec, Canada

[Guest guest]

From: <chris_thibaudeau@...>

< 1. Should Female Gymnasts Lift Weights? by A Sands PhD, Jeni

R McNeal PhD, Monem Jemni MS, H Delong BS

Gymnastics coaches and administrators in the US are reluctant to

include weight training with female gymnasts because they believe it

produces detrimental increases in muscle mass. >

Hamish F: Also when to fit it in when most gymnasts train 4-6 hours a day six

times a week.

<However, weight training based on high-intensity low-repetition sets is likely

to

improve the performance of most gymnasts by increasing strength with

minimal muscle hypertrophy. >

Hamish F: Does this mean the authors have discovered a strength imbalance in US

female gymnasts? Is this the case?

<Gymnasts and other athletes who must move their body weight as the

primary resistance need to train for strength relative to body mass

rather than absolute strength (Poliquin, 1991; Sands, Mikesky, &

, 1991). As the gymnast matures, she is likely to gain

absolute strength but lose relative strength as her body mass

increases (Sands et al., 1991; Irvin et al., 1992; Zatsiorsky, 1995).

Female gymnasts can increase reliance on motor skills to compensate

for a decline in relative strength (Poliquin, 1991; Zatsiorsky,

1995), but strength training aimed at increasing relative strength is

another important approach. >

Hamish F: Most of the references here are from general strength texts and not

from

specific studies using elite gymnasts as the subjects.

<All gymnastics coaches would agree that development

of strength through repetition of gymnastics skills is appropriate.

However, skills at the elite level are becoming ever more difficult,

and extra time for training is at a premium. >

Hamish F: So the suggestion is to spend MORE TIME using weight training???

<Weight training would be orthopedically less demanding than extra skill

repetitions and

require less time for these gymnasts. >

HF: Fair call, gymnasts are always getting injured. Perhaps the best reason

to use weight training as I did with the figure skaters I trained.

OTOH I think most gymnasts do seem to have a preoccupation with doing so

many repetitions that training becomes strength endurance for a sport that

mostly involves power.

< 2. Strength Training Fundamentals in Gymnastics Conditioning by

J. Major,

One of the most important insights of modern training is that a

highly developed level of strength cannot be maintained even by

intensive performance of the event itself (Bührle and Werner, 1984). >

HF: Can anyone elaborate on this study?

< Bührle, M., and Werner, E. (1984). Das Muskelquerschnittstraining der

Bodybuilder [The muscle hypertrophy training of the body builder].

Leistungssport, 3, 5-9. >

HF: Doesn't sound like they were testing the strength of elite gymnasts.

< This insight has proven to be true in such very different events as

swimming, cross-country skiing, and gymnastics. Gymnastics alone will

not develop nor even maintain an adequate level of strength for

advanced gymnastics (Oppel, 1967). ><

HF: Ditto

Oppel, C. (1967). Die Abhangigkeit turnischer Leistungen im Jugendalter von

der Muskelkraft [The dependency of gymnastics performance on muscular

strength during the junior ages]. Theorie u. Praxis d. Körperkultur, 12,

236-244. >

HF: Is this gymnastics competitions alone, apparatus training alone or

competitions, apparatus training and the 20-30 mins of conditioning work

most gymnasts do at the end of the day?

<Special conditioning must be performed, besides countless elements,

combinations, parts, and full

routines. Inconsistent strength training can explain the decline in

performance, or at least the stagnation, of a number of athletes who

had promising performances during the preparatory season. >

HF: From my own training for competition aerobics I have to say it is tough

to fit it all in. So many different elements to be practised and so little

time.

<Repetition of the skill alone will not guarantee

even a minimum level of strength to perform the skill correctly. >

HF: This is true. Gymnasts at our local school spend a lot of time doing

extra handstand work and conditioning exercises. Some have to build up to a

certain level before they can commence skill training.

<The observation that a highly developed level of strength cannot be

maintained even by the most intensive performance of the movements of

the competition routines does not contradict the principle of

specificity, but completes it (Bührle and Werner, 1984; , 1991;

Verchoshanskij, 1985). Special strength training is necessary, but it

must specifically meet the demands of the event, in this case

gymnastics skills. What is specific for gymnastics will be discussed below.>

HF: It's a good article but neither says what type of special strength

training is required. They do not suggest the use of barbell weight training

only say that supplemental training is required.

The Major article is good in that it highlights the need to use maximum

strength exercises. As I see it there is a heavy focus on strength

endurance. I don't see how this assists gymnasts advance. However there are

a huge range of maximal strength exercises for all parts of the body that

can be done in the gymnastics hall and do not require barbells or other

implements.

And still nobody has touched the subject of how the US Elite team is so

good when they do not use any forms of weight training. Even more likely

that the Russian, Chinese and Romanian countries do not either.

Hamish Ferguson

Christchurch, New Zealand

[Guest guest]

--- kathy thomas <ktatc@...> wrote:

> I know that this subject was discussed a month ago

> but, I sometimes save the

> ones I am interested in to read when I have time. I

> wanted to make a

> comment regarding 's post on strength in

> gymnastics. I was lucky

> enough to work as an athletic trainer at the OTC in

> Colorado Springs last

> summer and covered the men's gymnastics the 2 weeks

> I was there. I talked

> at length with many of the gymnasts and asked them

> about their training. In

> particular, I talked to Roethlisberg the

> gymnast that went to Sydney

> for us (at 30 years old) and he told me that he had

> never lifted weights in

> a gym. However, he was always the first to workout

> and the last to leave

> and he did alot of weight belt work (have you ever

> noticed his lats?). In

> fact, none of the national team gymnasts I spoke

> with lifted weights other

> than their gymnastic routines/strengthing. Just

> curious why the Olympic

> lifts for your gymnasts?

>

> Kathy , MS, ATC

> Healthy Concepts - Gymstrada consultant

> Virginia Beach, VA

>

> Hi kathy,

I was gymnast for the University of Iowa and have

coached elite gymnasts for many years, first as

gymnatics coach and now as a strength and rehab coach.

We never did any weight training as competitive

gymnasts. Most of the six hour training day was

devoted to training skills and routines on each of the

six apparatus each day as well as much body weight

conditioning at the end of the day.

I beleive this was a serious mistake,especially for me

coming into collegiate competition with a

reconstructed knee. I was never taught to squat or

lunge or train for increased strength in the areas

where I was weak. I now wished I had.

I would love to know how these guys are getting SO

strong, especially on the rings, what type of strength

work they are doing. I came from the era of ring

specialists and these guys today are even stronger

than those animals!

I just started introducing the olympic lifts to one of

the elite girls I work with and its amazing how

quickly she picked up the motor pattern. She's doing

full snatches and overhead squats with ease. She

really enjoys it, also.

I beleive keeping the intensity relatively high and

the volume of reps and total work low will keep her

from getting too much hypertrophy.

Most of the weight training programs in the gyms

around here(which are top notch nationally) involve

very little real lifting, too many machines,isolation

training and almost no concept of progression.

Most of conditioning is small isolated movements done

for way too many reps. I would train the females much

more like males than they are doing now, with more

shoulder work and the olympic lifts plus squats and

presses.

Just my opinion and some observations.

Mark Reifkind

San USA

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> We never did any weight training as competitive

> gymnasts. Most of the six hour training day was

> devoted to training skills and routines on each of the

> six apparatus each day as well as much body weight

> conditioning at the end of the day.

How would you fit weight training into such a schedule?

> I beleive this was a serious mistake,especially for me

> coming into collegiate competition with a

> reconstructed knee. I was never taught to squat or

> lunge or train for increased strength in the areas

> where I was weak. I now wished I had.

Did you re-enter gymnastics without sufficient rehab for the knee?

> I would love to know how these guys are getting SO

> strong, especially on the rings, what type of strength

> work they are doing. I came from the era of ring

> specialists and these guys today are even stronger

> than those animals!

The guys here just do rings, just do pommel, do paralell bars, just

do floor, just do high bar and just do vault. Our ring specialist

does have a set of 20kg dumbells that he does hold in various

positions for 60sec at a time. The only conditioning work he does

outside of appartus is some push ups, chin ups and rope climbs.

> I just started introducing the olympic lifts to one of

> the elite girls I work with and its amazing how

> quickly she picked up the motor pattern. She's doing

> full snatches and overhead squats with ease. She

> really enjoys it, also.

Is she performing any better. Better in relation to the group she

trains with?

> Most of conditioning is small isolated movements done

> for way too many reps. I would train the females much

> more like males than they are doing now, with more

> shoulder work and the olympic lifts plus squats and

> presses.

Yes. Looked at Bela Karolyi's site and his conditioning suggestions

are for condiotioning exercises with a high number of reps because he

believes that endurance is very important??? But then who is going to

argue with a man who has had so much success?

http://www.girlsgymnastics.com/

Hamish Ferguson

Christchurch, New Zealand

[Guest guest]

Hamish Ferguson:

> The guys here just do rings, just do pommel, do paralell bars, just

> do floor, just do high bar and just do vault. Our ring specialist

> does have a set of 20kg dumbells that he does hold in various

> positions for 60sec at a time. The only conditioning work he does

> outside of appartus is some push ups, chin ups and rope climbs.

>...... Looked at Bela Karolyi's site and his conditioning suggestions

> are for condiotioning exercises with a high number of reps because

he believes that endurance is very important??? But then who is going

to argue with a man who has had so much success?

>

> http://www.girlsgymnastics.com/

********

Did not the Soviets use gymnastics as part of their GPP

program for weightlifting, track and field and others sports? From

what i understand its carryover to the Olympic lifts was quite

significant.

Green

Escondido, California

[Guest guest]

Hamish Ferguson <bikecoach@...> wrote:

> > We never did any weight training as competitive

> > gymnasts. Most of the six hour training day was

> > devoted to training skills and routines on each of

> >the six apparatus each day as well as much body weight

> > conditioning at the end of the day.

>

> How would you fit weight training into such a

> schedule?

Mark:

To begin with I dont believe its necessary for

gymnasts to train all six events each day.Possible

yes, necessary? I don't know. Obviously the skill

level that has been obtained is unbelievable but at

the lower levels it seems to encourage overtraining

and the chronic injuries I see in the gymnasts daily.

I would like to see the weight training done, as it

is now, at the end of the sessions but utilizing less

isolation,bodybuilding type exercises and more olympic

and power oriented movements.Low reps so to not

encourage hypertrophy(except where its needed) and

focusing on doing a lot of heavy work but not to fatigue.

>gymnastics without sufficient rehab for the knee?

Mark:

Yes, there was virtually no rehab done other than

manual leg curls by Nurse Ratchett, to " break up " the

adhesions and scar tissue caused by being casted

immediately after the operation for eight weeks with

no EMS, ice packs or other modalities. My knee is

still basically bent at the same angle I was casted in.

> The guys here just do rings, just do pommel, do

> paralell bars, just do floor, just do high bar and just do vault. Our

> ring specialist does have a set of 20kg dumbells that he does hold

> in various positions for 60sec at a time. The only conditioning

> work he does outside of appartus is some push ups, chin ups and

> rope climbs.

Mark:

Thats what we did too, but how are they able to

achieve such incredible strength levels?Crosses,

followed by cross pullouts, followed maltese cross,

another pullout, etc. Insane!!!

> > I just started introducing the olympic lifts to

> >one of the elite girls I work with and its amazing how

> > quickly she picked up the motor pattern. She's

> > doing full snatches and overhead squats with ease. She

> > really enjoys it, also.

>

> Is she performing any better. Better in relation to

> the group she

> trains with?

Mark

We literally just started. Most of the time I have to

spend doing therapeutic modalities to deal with the

various and numerous aches ,pains, pulls, knots and

strains she gets training eight hours a day(two

sessions) six days a week.

> Yes. Looked at Bela Karolyi's site and his

> conditioning suggestions are for no strength training or sprinting at all.

> exercises with a high numberof reps because he

> believes that endurance is very important??? But

> then who is going to argue with a man who has had so much success?

Mark:

How much endurance do you need to do four routines

that last no longer than 90 seconds? This has never

made much sense to me.Their absolute strength levels

need to be much higher.

As far as Karoli's sucess so much of that has to do

with selelction. I was assistant Elite coach to Dick

Mulvihill of the Oregon Academy of Artistic Gymnastics

in Eugene Oregon (most sucessfull USA womens coach

ever) and his sucess had SO MUCH to do with having

TONS of girls to choose from, working them to near

death and then seeing who could hang. Those he kept.

The discards were far more numerous. Its a numbers

game.I truly beleive that girls gymnastics, the way it

is done now, is almost criminal in its abuse of

pre-adolescent and adolescent girls.

The workloads and skill requirements are far too high,

the emphasis way to much on higher and higher skill

levels and less on artistic impression. And the

equipment allows very weak girls to get very high

in the air, without the requisite strength levels to

handle falling from those great heights. If they had

to tumble on the mats I did (and Mel, too, I'm sure)

they would have a hard time with full twisting backs,

not double twisting double backs!

Mark Reifkind

San USA