RE: borax/fabric softener

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/9/02 4:45:34 PM Central Daylight Time,

cpfarm@... writes:

> No but if you add white vinegar to the rinse water your colors will last

> longer and it will get all the soap out.

> Chris

>

Thanks Chris. Having a front loading washing machine can be a problem when

one wants to add something to the rinse cycle though. :-))

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

Okay. I am going to try cheap cider vinegar and eo in the automatic fabric

softener receptacle and see how it works. Thanks for the tips. :-))

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/9/02 7:25:26 PM Central Daylight Time, parmer@...

writes:

> I put the borax in with the laundry detergent (or my own laundry

> soap) and the vinegar in the rinse. Softest towels and sheets

> around! and we have very hard water.

>

>

>

Great idea! Thanks. I am going to try it.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

Just put the vinegar where you would normally put the fabric conditioner... you

know.... in that other little compartment!

Fiona in the UK

Re: borax/fabric softener

In a message dated 4/9/02 4:45:34 PM Central Daylight Time,

cpfarm@... writes:

> No but if you add white vinegar to the rinse water your colors will last

> longer and it will get all the soap out.

> Chris

>

Thanks Chris. Having a front loading washing machine can be a problem when

one wants to add something to the rinse cycle though. :-))

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

I have a front loader I just put it in where I would put fabric softener. I

use sheets in the dryer.

Chris

Re: borax/fabric softener

In a message dated 4/9/02 4:45:34 PM Central Daylight Time,

cpfarm@... writes:

> No but if you add white vinegar to the rinse water your colors will last

> longer and it will get all the soap out.

> Chris

>

Thanks Chris. Having a front loading washing machine can be a problem when

one wants to add something to the rinse cycle though. :-))

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

> Hello,

>

> Does anyone know if adding borax and eo to the automatic

fabric softener

> dispenser of my washing machine would give similar results

as using

> commercial fabric softener?

I put the borax in with the laundry detergent (or my own laundry

soap) and the vinegar in the rinse. Softest towels and sheets

around! and we have very hard water.

[Guest guest]

This would be most unwise! The two are not similar at all.

Bob Foulkes

Re: borax/fabric softener

Hello,

Does anyone know if adding borax and eo to the automatic fabric softener

dispenser of my washing machine would give similar results as using

commercial fabric softener?

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/10/02 3:54:43 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobfoulkes@... writes:

> This would be most unwise! The two are not similar at all.

>

> Bob Foulkes

>

Bob,

What would you suggest one use instead of commercial fabric softener?

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/11/02 2:31:23 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobfoulkes@... writes:

> The other end of the quat molecule is a

> hydrocarbon (i.e. oil) that sticks out from the fibre surface like an

>

Bob,

It gives a whole new meaning to hairshirt. Thanks for the great explanation.

Where can one purchase Quats? It is all the " extras " in commercial fabric

softeners that I am interested in avoiding.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

I would stick to the white vinegar instead of the

brown cider vinegar, it might leave a tint on your

clothes.

JMHO

Heidi

----- Original Message -----

From: <Yaaruln@...>

Okay. I am going to try cheap cider vinegar and

eo in the automatic fabric

softener receptacle and see how it works. Thanks

for the tips. :-))

[Guest guest]

Thanks Heidi!! I thought maybe red wine vinegar would give me an alluring

sophisticated scent. :-))

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bob, I am going to hunt for some and experiment. It is pretty funny

to think my goal is hairy clothing with scum added.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

Bob, you make my brain feel VERY small. Thank you so much for sharing such

great information!! It would take me years to find out all that stuff!!

Re: borax/fabric softener

In a message dated 4/11/02 2:31:23 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobfoulkes@... writes:

> The other end of the quat molecule is a

> hydrocarbon (i.e. oil) that sticks out from the fibre surface like an

>

Bob,

It gives a whole new meaning to hairshirt. Thanks for the great

explanation.

Where can one purchase Quats? It is all the " extras " in commercial fabric

softeners that I am interested in avoiding.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

Only if you think smelling like pickles is alluring and sophisticated,

honey!!!

Whatever floats your boat!!

Re: borax/fabric softener

Thanks Heidi!! I thought maybe red wine vinegar would give me an alluring

sophisticated scent. :-))

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

The most common active ingredient used in fabric softeners is

Lauryl-Dimethyl-Benzyl-Ammonium Chloride. I think the INCI name for this

class of materials is Benzalkonium chloride. Most of the quats are

cationic detergents. It is available to compounders under a host of

trade names, such as Bioquat (by Orica, used to be ICI). The same

compound is used in several products including hair conditioners, fabric

softeners, disinfectants, anti-bacterials, non-chlorine containing pool

chemicals. It not only sticks to fabrics but the same mechanism lets it

stick to bacterial cell walls - which then rupture and kill the bug! It

is inexpensive to produce and to buy commercially. I think that in

disinfectants it is used at around 1-2% level (in the concentrate) and

is then diluted for use. I don’t have the concentration used for fabric

softeners but it would only be of the order of a few % in the

concentrated form. The other materials present would be water soluble

thickeners (such as carboxy-methyl-celluloses (e.g. Methocell - Dow

Chemicals) or even xanthan gum) to make it easier to dispense

accurately.

Quats are incompatible with anionic detergents and soaps. They combine

to form an insoluble scum. That is why you only add it to the rinse

water.

I'm a chemist in New Zealand, so I can buy it from lots of chemical

suppliers. Where you buy it from in the USA I don't know, but anywhere

that you can buy anionic detergents like Sodium Lauryl Sulphate should

have it. It is very common.

Bob Foulkes

Re: borax/fabric softener

In a message dated 4/11/02 2:31:23 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobfoulkes@... writes:

> The other end of the quat molecule is a

> hydrocarbon (i.e. oil) that sticks out from the fibre surface like an

>

Bob,

It gives a whole new meaning to hairshirt. Thanks for the great

explanation.

Where can one purchase Quats? It is all the " extras " in commercial

fabric

softeners that I am interested in avoiding.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

Sounds like my 15-year-old!!

Re: borax/fabric softener

Thanks Bob, I am going to hunt for some and experiment. It is pretty funny

to think my goal is hairy clothing with scum added.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob and all,

For those in the US looking to buy fabric softener base try

STEPAN Co

22 W. Frontage Rd

Northfield, IL 60093

Or

Proctor and Gamble Industries

Chemical Division

Cincinnati, OH 45201

They should have it - note however that these guys are industrial

suppliers - they will expect you to buy by the barrel (200 lts), so

unless you can wheedle a smaple out of them be prepared for a shock.

Usage rate (BTW) is anywhere from 3 - 8% in water. Some can be made in

cold water, others require warm (ie 50°C) - both will need a stick

blender to be properly beaten into phase.

Some are also " associatively thickened " - so you don't need the other

bits (like carboxymethylcellulose) that Bob mentioned - they just

thicken up by themselves.

Regards,

Bruce

Another chemist from the Antipodes (Australia)

Re: borax/fabric softener

In a message dated 4/11/02 2:31:23 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobfoulkes@... writes:

> The other end of the quat molecule is a

> hydrocarbon (i.e. oil) that sticks out from the fibre surface like an

>

Bob,

It gives a whole new meaning to hairshirt. Thanks for the great

explanation.

Where can one purchase Quats? It is all the " extras " in commercial

fabric

softeners that I am interested in avoiding.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

Bruce,

Thank you for the information. I just love the people on the list that can

explain things to me on a molecular level. It makes it easier for me to

understand and allows me to " think " in an area, instead of just trying to

remember discreet facts. Unfortunately, I don't think all of Alaska uses

that much fabric softener in a year! :-)) Maybe I could offer to bake

Proctor and Gamble them some cookies or something for a smaller amount.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

G'day there Bruce!

What are you referring to by " some " ? Some quats? Which ones? Got any

good compounds you would recommend?

Can you give a bit more info on " associatively thickened " ? I not

familiar with the term and it sounds interesting. I presume you mean

that some quats associate with themselves in solution to effectively

reduce water mobility. Is this right?

I take it you mean 3-8% to make a fabric softener like a commercial one,

and used at similar rates?

Bob Foulkes

Re: borax/fabric softener

In a message dated 4/11/02 2:31:23 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobfoulkes@... writes:

> The other end of the quat molecule is a

> hydrocarbon (i.e. oil) that sticks out from the fibre surface like an

>

Bob,

It gives a whole new meaning to hairshirt. Thanks for the great

explanation.

Where can one purchase Quats? It is all the " extras " in commercial

fabric

softeners that I am interested in avoiding.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

Hi there ,

From the ingredient list you give " vegetable oil surfactant " would most

probably be another name for Lauryl-Dimethyl-Benzyl-Ammonium Chloride, a

Benzalkonium chloride. Most quats function as cationic surfactants.

Lauryl generally indicates that the surfactant or whatever is derived

from coconut or palm oil because the predominant fatty acid present in

these oils is lauric acid. To convert the oil to a surfactant you need a

chemical processing factory! It would be a bit like saying that methanol

is derived from cows burps (etc) because cows burp methane and methane

is also present in natural gas. The connection is correct, but any

implication of gentle agricultural " goodness " is not. The methanol plant

does not care where their supplier gets their methane from. I think this

manufacturer is using the term " vegetable oil surfactant " to conceal the

fact that it is exactly the same ingredient as all the other supermarket

products, and is neither more nor less " natural " nor " green " . The

implication is that vegetable sourced is somehow " natural " and thereby

necessarily good, and that chemically processed is not. Neither are

necessarily true.

Bob Foulkes

Re: borax/fabric softener

Now this is really in my field of interest, really trying to concoct a

Fabric Softener for the last 12 months or so.(I'm slow) at the moment I

water down my store bought natural(ECOVER) with goodies like white

vinegar

and ess oils .

All they (ECOVER) say is ingredients: Veg oil surfactant , salt ,plant

scent

and

preservative. Which and how much vegetable oil surfactant would you

imagine

I would need?

I am trying to make this as earth friendly as possible. I have a B & B so

I

have plenty of Laundry to practice on!!!!!

I got the data from Stepan what is bothering me is they sell already

made

base and they don't tell you what goes into it. I want to make Fabric

Softener that is as natural as possible. (I'm repeating myself)

Really enjoying this dialogue, thanks

Re: borax/fabric softener

In a message dated 4/11/02 2:31:23 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobfoulkes@... writes:

> The other end of the quat molecule is a

> hydrocarbon (i.e. oil) that sticks out from the fibre surface like an

>

Bob,

It gives a whole new meaning to hairshirt. Thanks for the great

explanation.

Where can one purchase Quats? It is all the " extras " in commercial

fabric

softeners that I am interested in avoiding.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/15/02 12:42:37 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobfoulkes@... writes:

> But

> to do so you need to have a reasonable appreciation of the chemistry

>

That's why we have friends like you, Bob. :-)) Thanks for the info.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

Benzalkonium Chloride is a common biocide, a surfactant that ruptures

bacterial cell walls if present at high enough levels. It is

biodegradable and relatively innocuous I think. Personally I think it is

used in far too many products that don't actually need antibacterial

properties, manufacturers are just selling us more products by raising

our fear of bugs.

It is so widely used that you should be able to get it reasonably

easily. Bruce'e reply giving some US suppliers might help start your

search, but smaller suppliers who break down commercial products to

hobbyists ought to be able to sell it to you readily. Ask around for

suppliers who sell surfactants in small quantities.

I appluad your trying to use only environmentally benign products. But

to do so you need to have a reasonable appreciation of the chemistry

behind things. Otherwise it is hard to get right the balance between

paranoia and gay abandon. A little bit of knowledge gives many people

quite cock-eyed ideas of what is good and bad. Many products that are

bad in high concentration may be quite innocuous when dilute for

instance. Others may accumulate even when released as dilute solutions.

Not everything that is natural is benign, and not everything made in a

chemical refinery is necessarily bad for you. Often quite the opposite.

Bob Foulkes

Re: borax/fabric softener

Thanks Bob, I need to digest that a little, does it mean that I can or

can't

get a Lauryl-Dimethyl-Benzyl-Ammonium Chloride, that isn't to toxic to

mother nature!

It is all very complicated but I am trying to be aware of the effects of

the

ingredients I use on the rest of the ecosystem.

Anyhow thanks for your input I really wish I paid more attention to

chemistry and physics when I had the chance to learn, thanks

Re: borax/fabric softener

In a message dated 4/11/02 2:31:23 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobfoulkes@... writes:

> The other end of the quat molecule is a

> hydrocarbon (i.e. oil) that sticks out from the fibre surface like an

>

Bob,

It gives a whole new meaning to hairshirt. Thanks for the great

explanation.

Where can one purchase Quats? It is all the " extras " in commercial

fabric

softeners that I am interested in avoiding.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I couldn't agree more, Bob.

I don't know about the US, but in Oz a lot of companies talk about

" natural " products - what they mean is " derived from nature " . The

problem is that many things have a natural start point (coconut oil, for

instance), but in order to make it into something that has a specific

and useful property (in this case, as a fabric softener) we (chemists)

basically have to " tear down " the molecule and rebuild it the way we

want to create a molecule with the right features - form follows

function.

The trouble is , marketers then get involved and say " you can't tell

people this is synthetic - that has bad conotations - we'll tell them it

is " from nature " " .

Now, BTW, the new molecule MAY or MAY NOT be easily biodegradable, safe,

non-toxic, non-polluting, etc .... - this depends ENTIRELY on how we

make it - not on the starting point compound and certainly not what the

marketers say. I've seen some shocker compounds made from natural start

points and I've seen some (ecologically) great compounds made purely

from petroleum start point compounds - so I shall say again " FORM

FOLLOWS FUNCTION " - you make what you need - if you need safe,

non-toxic, etc - that's how you build the molecule.

Regards,

Bruce

Re: borax/fabric softener

Now this is really in my field of interest, really trying to concoct a

Fabric Softener for the last 12 months or so.(I'm slow) at the moment I

water down my store bought natural(ECOVER) with goodies like white

vinegar and ess oils . All they (ECOVER) say is ingredients: Veg oil

surfactant , salt ,plant scent and preservative. Which and how much

vegetable oil surfactant would you imagine I would need? I am trying to

make this as earth friendly as possible. I have a B & B so I have plenty

of Laundry to practice on!!!!! I got the data from Stepan what is

bothering me is they sell already made base and they don't tell you what

goes into it. I want to make Fabric Softener that is as natural as

possible. (I'm repeating myself) Really enjoying this dialogue, thanks

Re: borax/fabric softener

In a message dated 4/11/02 2:31:23 AM Central Daylight Time,

bobfoulkes@... writes:

> The other end of the quat molecule is a

> hydrocarbon (i.e. oil) that sticks out from the fibre surface like an

>

Bob,

It gives a whole new meaning to hairshirt. Thanks for the great

explanation. Where can one purchase Quats? It is all the " extras " in

commercial fabric softeners that I am interested in avoiding.

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/15/02 2:03:01 PM Central Daylight Time,

EdensScents@... writes:

> baking soda has always worked for me.

> Its all I ever used on my sons diapers, if it was gentle enough for their

> hindparts well them who am I to say NO Besides working really really

> well

> and it kills odors, softens the water as well it is CHEAP.

>

>

Do you just put it in the automatic fabric softener dispenser in the washing

machine?

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Guest guest]

If I use baking soda in the wash water and vinegar in the fabric softener

dispenser, am I likely to cause any reaction that will result in my clothes,

the washer, or the city burning down?

¸..·´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Sage -:¦:-

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*