Re: HIT and Other Training Methods

[Guest guest]

Rosemary Wedderburn<CookieMagic@...> wrote:

> Most people seem to gravitate towards specific types of training. They may

> periodize and do it all, but usually they prefer one over the other. Any

> comments from the list as to whether this may have something to do with the

> folks who think HIT is the only way to go?

It may have 'something' to do with it, but I'm not sure it plays a big part

in one's decision to follow HIT with some sort of religious devotion. What

type of muscle fiber distribution does HIT favor?

First of all, there are many different interpretations of what HIT means. Some

say it must only be one set per exercise, some do three sets, some say you must

go to failure, others recommend stopping short of failure, some say you must

only do compound exercises, some include 'isolation' exercises, some say you

must

only train one to two times per week, but others say you can train more often

if your daily session volume is low.

Most Hitters use a submax set(s) (less than a 1RM attempt) with a relatively

slow tempo. This means they initially recruit slow twitch fibers, then fast

twitch oxidative-glycolytic, then fast twitch glycolytic (or whatever

terminology you prefer) assuming they go near 'failure'. This alone isn't much

different from other methods. One of the main differences may come in the

amount of time between workouts.

All else being equal, HITters usually have more time between workouts. In

theory, one with a greater percentage of fast twitch fibers would need longer to

recovery. However, one with a greater percentage of fast twitch fibers would

also tend to gain muscle easier than a person with mostly slow twitch fibers,

yet most HITters consider themselves hardgainers. Seems to me there are too

many variables and inconsistencies to think that HITters choose to be HITters

based on their percentage of the different muscle fiber types.

Gabe Rinaldi CSCS

Silicon Valley, CA

[Guest guest]

From: " Rosemary Wedderburn " <CookieMagic@...>

> I wonder if people choose their favorite training methods based on the

> preponderance of muscle type they may have or some other chemical or

> nerve-response factors. In talking about rep and set schemes with various

> iron-game friends, it seems that everyone has a method they prefer.

I would actually argue that for many people, this choice is based on as many

psychological as physiological factors. In the case of HIT, I can see

several psychological advantages:

1. the dogma of " one right way to train " allows for a kind of moral

certainty

2. taking a set " to failure " allows the trainee to correlate perceived

effort with perceived results

3. the assertion that HIT is based on " objectivity " , " logic " , and " reason "

is comforting because it implies that this training method has been

" scientifically validated " (when, ironically, HITers seem to be eminently

hostile to rigorous critique on a theoretical level)

4. doing only one set allows the trainee to feel that they have made

efficient use of their time

5. the excuse of " genetic hardgainers " allows the trainee to reject

consideration of all other training methods (good and bad), which they

decide were not made for mere mortals

Etc.

Before I learned about things like the importance of varying workload, I

used to also think that I just did better at always lifting heavier weights

with lower reps. It felt good to my ego to pile on a big heap of weight. I

felt I didn't have to bother with wasteful things like endurance and so

forth. Apparently neither did I have to bother with connective tissue

strengthening to handle my heavy loads (resulting in a variety of owchies),

nor with any kind of intensity variation (resulting in eventual

overtraining).

Other trainees like to feel the " pump " , the " burn " , or other such

foolishness. SuperSlow, for example, has adherents because it makes people

feel like they're really working hard. It's an intrinsic psychological

benefit of their training program and has little to do with what is good for

their bodies.

I have since realized that good training takes into account both strengths

and weaknesses of each trainee. People gravitate to what seems easier for

them, but that is not necessarily a good thing.

Krista

http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html

mistresskrista@...

[Guest guest]

Krista, I am new here. Came over from the HIT list and I can agree with a lot of

what you say. I do want to comment on your last sentence. I don't feel a good

HIT routine is *easy* in any sense of the word. I am not a hardcore HITter or a

hard gainer, in fact I gain size and strength very easily if I work hard. I like

HIT due to the strict form it requires and I have a permantly injured back due

to

an accident, so strict form is very important to me. I also have done (and will

do again) higher volume training in the future. Some people do embrace a certain

method or philosophy as a kind of religion but I am not one of those. Always

willing to learn more.

Mike Pallante

Youngstown, Ohio USA

------------------------

From: " Rosemary Wedderburn " <CookieMagic@...>

> > I wonder if people choose their favorite training methods based on the

> > preponderance of muscle type they may have or some other chemical or

> > nerve-response factors. In talking about rep and set schemes with various

> > iron-game friends, it seems that everyone has a method they prefer.

Krista--Dixon wrote:

> I would actually argue that for many people, this choice is based on as many

> psychological as physiological factors. In the case of HIT, I can see

> several psychological advantages:

>

> 1. the dogma of " one right way to train " allows for a kind of moral

> certainty

>

> 2. taking a set " to failure " allows the trainee to correlate perceived

> effort with perceived results

>

> 3. the assertion that HIT is based on " objectivity " , " logic " , and " reason "

> is comforting because it implies that this training method has been

> " scientifically validated " (when, ironically, HITers seem to be eminently

> hostile to rigorous critique on a theoretical level)

>

> 4. doing only one set allows the trainee to feel that they have made

> efficient use of their time

>

> 5. the excuse of " genetic hardgainers " allows the trainee to reject

> consideration of all other training methods (good and bad), which they

> decide were not made for mere mortals

>

> Etc.

>

> Before I learned about things like the importance of varying workload, I

> used to also think that I just did better at always lifting heavier weights

> with lower reps. It felt good to my ego to pile on a big heap of weight. I

> felt I didn't have to bother with wasteful things like endurance and so

> forth. Apparently neither did I have to bother with connective tissue

> strengthening to handle my heavy loads (resulting in a variety of owchies),

> nor with any kind of intensity variation (resulting in eventual

> overtraining).

>

> Other trainees like to feel the " pump " , the " burn " , or other such

> foolishness. SuperSlow, for example, has adherents because it makes people

> feel like they're really working hard. It's an intrinsic psychological

> benefit of their training program and has little to do with what is good for

> their bodies.

>

> I have since realized that good training takes into account both strengths

> and weaknesses of each trainee. People gravitate to what seems easier for

> them, but that is not necessarily a good thing.

----------------------

Africanhut's Fish Foods

Great Foods - Even Greater Prices

http://africanhut.net

[Guest guest]

africanhut wrote:

> I like HIT due to the strict form it requires and I have a

> permantly injured back due to an accident, so strict form is very

> important to me. I also have done (and will do again) higher volume

> training in the future. Some people do embrace a certain method or

> philosophy as a kind of religion but I am not one of those. Always

> willing to learn more.

Strict form is not a concept that belongs to HIT by any means, and in

fact if anything is a difficult thing to maintain near failure. If

someone with your problem asked me what type of workout routine to

follow, HIT would not come to mind.

-Wayne Hill

Westborough, MA

[Guest guest]

HIT was not recommended to me by anyone. I followed it years ago when

Darden and Mentzer were fighting it out over who came up with what. I

understand that strict form is important no matter what type of

routine(s) you do but I see many, many who have no idea of what strict

form is. I see move shakin and jiving from some of these guys as they

try to wrestle with a weight that is much too heavy for them and shiver

at the thought of the injuries they will incur eventually.

I prefer HIT training. I really have no obligation to explain why. It

works, I enjoy it, I do not hurt myself in the process, I have more time

for other things. My shirt sizes continue to increase as my pant sizes

decrease (although my thighs barely fit in the smaller pants or even

sweats). I don't know what you would advise but I refuse to give up the

heavy, slow, intense, brutal lifts because my back is screwed up!

Mike Pallante

Youngstown, Ohio USA

wshill@... wrote:

> africanhut wrote:

>

> > I like HIT due to the strict form it requires and I have a

> > permantly injured back due to an accident, so strict form is very

> > important to me. I also have done (and will do again) higher volume

> > training in the future. Some people do embrace a certain method or

> > philosophy as a kind of religion but I am not one of those. Always

> > willing to learn more.

>

> Strict form is not a concept that belongs to HIT by any means, and in

> fact if anything is a difficult thing to maintain near failure. If

> someone with your problem asked me what type of workout routine to

> follow, HIT would not come to mind.

>

> -Wayne Hill

> Westborough, MA

>

>

--

Africanhut's Fish Foods

Great Foods - Even Greater Prices

http://africanhut.net

January Specials: Cyclop-eeze (100g) - $18.00, 2# Bag HBH Graze Flake -

$21.00

Accepting Visa and MasterCard through PayPal - US, Canada, and many

other countries.

[Guest guest]

Mike Palante wrote:

I prefer HIT training. I really have no obligation to explain why. It

works, I enjoy it, I do not hurt myself in the process, I have more time

for other things. My shirt sizes continue to increase as my pant sizes

decrease (although my thighs barely fit in the smaller pants or even

sweats). I don't know what you would advise but I refuse to give up the

heavy, slow, intense, brutal lifts because my back is screwed up!

Casler writes:

Hey another " Buckeye " (person from OHIO) Mansfield/Ashland was my

Hometown(s).

You mentioned several times about your back. What is your injury and what

caused it. Also what are your current limitations?

Regards,

A. Casler

BIO-FORCE, Inc.

Los Angeles, CA

[Guest guest]

Hey , I am now a Buckeye fan since the coach from Youngstown State

was hired as the coach of Ohio State. Never rooted for them before but

now I have to. Go Bucs!!

As for my injury, I don't want to be rude but I really do not want to

write a long dissertation about it since I am really tired of it all.

Suffice it to say I am an ex high school physics teacher, got hurt while

breaking up a fight. Myself and another student (I was about 240, he was

the same) flew backwards and I slammed my lower back into the sharp edge

of an old steam radiator. This was over 5 years ago. Been to too many

docs.

Am on permanent disability from my retirement system and also

workman's compensation. Best guess as to my injury, twisted spine,

lumbar region, ligaments all strained and stretched. Has been described

as a recurrent reinjury situation ie everytime I stand up, the spine

goes out of wack and reinjury occurs. Prognosis; nothing much they can

do. Have 24 months of EXTENSIVE physical therapy from 5 differnet outfit

with different philosophies. Constant pain, 24/7, worse when I stand,

the most severe as I walk. Lead to depression, isolation, sucicide

attempts, homicidal tendencies (which about got me hospitalized).

Was told that the muscle mass in my lower back (from my lifting) saved me

from a cracked spine and probable severed spinal cord (hence a chair). I

hit bottom last spring, went into an intensive out-patient program, got

some anger management, decided to join the Y and see what I could do. It

has literally saved my life!! Have not missed a workout since I joined

in July except for 2 days after Christmas when I had a bout of the flu.

Limitations: cannot stand or walk for prolonged periods of time. Am 45

years young, married, 2 children, daughter 10, son 4.

I workout using mainly Hammer Strength and Cybex equipment and have

progressed farther than I ever thought I could. I have benched 360 for

two reps, leg pressed 1000# for 8 reps, just did a 20 rep squat set with

655#. Losing fat, gaining muscle, feeling more happy, less sad.

The lifting doesn't seem to hurt or help my back but it does help my

brain. Was on 4 anti-depressants plus valium, down to two

anti-depressants. Had high blood pressure but now I am off of the blood

pressure meds for over a month and my pressure is very good.

I guess that is as concise as I can put it.

Mike Pallante

Youngstown, Ohio USA

---------------------

Mike Palante wrote:

> I prefer HIT training. I really have no obligation to explain why. It

> works, I enjoy it, I do not hurt myself in the process, I have more

> time

> for other things. My shirt sizes continue to increase as my pant sizes

>

> decrease (although my thighs barely fit in the smaller pants or even

> sweats). I don't know what you would advise but I refuse to give up

> the heavy, slow, intense, brutal lifts because my back is screwed up!

Casler writes:

> Hey another " Buckeye " (person from OHIO) Mansfield/Ashland was my

> Hometown(s).

>

> You mentioned several times about your back. What is your injury and

> what caused it. Also what are your current limitations?

-------------------

Africanhut's Fish Foods

Great Foods - Even Greater Prices

http://africanhut.net

..

[Guest guest]

africanhut <africanhut@...> wrote:

> Constant pain, 24/7, worse when I stand, the most severe as I walk.

> ...

> Limitations: cannot stand or walk for prolonged periods of time.

> ...

> I workout using mainly Hammer Strength and Cybex equipment and have

> progressed farther than I ever thought I could. I have benched 360

> for two reps, leg pressed 1000# for 8 reps, just did a 20 rep squat

> set with 655#.

> ...

> The lifting doesn't seem to hurt or help my back but it does help

> my brain.

You cannot stand or walk for prolonged periods, but you can squat 655

lbs for 20 reps?

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Yes, but on a Hammer Strength squat machine where you are lying on your

back. I can also do leg presses over 1000#. No brag, just fact. Pretty

weird, huh? Hell, I cannot walk to my truck (which is less than 100yards)

without stopping once, maybe twice due to the pain. I know this sounds

strange but I'm being honest here, no bull, no reason to lie about it.

Mike Pallante

Youngstown, Ohio USA

---------------

Matt Madsen wrote:

> africanhut <africanhut@...> wrote:

>

> > Constant pain, 24/7, worse when I stand, the most severe as I walk.

> > ...

> > Limitations: cannot stand or walk for prolonged periods of time.

> > ...

> > I workout using mainly Hammer Strength and Cybex equipment and have

> > progressed farther than I ever thought I could. I have benched 360

> > for two reps, leg pressed 1000# for 8 reps, just did a 20 rep squat

>

> > set with 655#.

> > ...

> > The lifting doesn't seem to hurt or help my back but it does help

> > my brain.

>

> You cannot stand or walk for prolonged periods, but you can squat 655

> lbs for 20 reps?

----------------------

Africanhut's Fish Foods

Great Foods - Even Greater Prices

http://africanhut.net

[Guest guest]

From Mike Pallante<africanhut@...>

> Yes, but on a Hammer Strength squat machine where you are lying on your

> back. I can also do leg presses over 1000#. No brag, just fact. Pretty

> weird, huh? Hell, I cannot walk to my truck (which is less than 100yards)

> without stopping once, maybe twice due to the pain. I know this sounds

> strange but I'm being honest here, no bull, no reason to lie about it.

I've experienced this sort of thing myself. 2 years ago, I had a lumbar

sprain of some kind (doctors were vague about the diagnosis), and now

experience recurring pain episodes. I keep it in line thru constant

rehab-type maintenance work (BTW, , I'm enjoying your " Casler squats " ).

Generally, as long as the spine is in so-called neutral position (neutral

for me, anyhow) or even hyperextension, there is no pain. I can squat and

DL fine as long as I am super careful to maintain the lumbar arch. DLing and

squatting (as well as OL assistance work), in fact, feel great, and

sometimes completely alleviate the pain.

During pain flare-ups, though, the second the spine goes into flexion, even

while standing unloaded, owie. Any kind of spinal decompression work is a

no-no. Standing and sitting for long periods are painful.

Ah, the mysteries of LBP.

Krista

Toronto, ON

http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html

mistresskrista@...

[Guest guest]

I am totally the opposite Krista. I am my best in flexion and really

fire up my back when it goes into extension. Yep, a strange world

indeed.

Mike Pallante

Youngstown, Ohio USA

Krista--Dixon wrote:

> >From Mike Pallante<africanhut@...>

>

> > Yes, but on a Hammer Strength squat machine where you are lying on

> your

> > back. I can also do leg presses over 1000#. No brag, just fact.

> Pretty

> > weird, huh? Hell, I cannot walk to my truck (which is less than

> 100yards)

> > without stopping once, maybe twice due to the pain. I know this

> sounds

> > strange but I'm being honest here, no bull, no reason to lie about

> it.

>

>

> I've experienced this sort of thing myself. 2 years ago, I had a

> lumbar

> sprain of some kind (doctors were vague about the diagnosis), and now

> experience recurring pain episodes. I keep it in line thru constant

> rehab-type maintenance work (BTW, , I'm enjoying your " Casler

> squats " ).

> Generally, as long as the spine is in so-called neutral position

> (neutral

> for me, anyhow) or even hyperextension, there is no pain. I can squat

> and

> DL fine as long as I am super careful to maintain the lumbar arch.

> DLing and

> squatting (as well as OL assistance work), in fact, feel great, and

> sometimes completely alleviate the pain.

>

> During pain flare-ups, though, the second the spine goes into flexion,

> even

> while standing unloaded, owie. Any kind of spinal decompression work

> is a

> no-no. Standing and sitting for long periods are painful.

>

> Ah, the mysteries of LBP.

>

> Krista

> Toronto, ON

>

> http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html

> mistresskrista@...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>