RE: The future of Chiropractic

[Guest guest]

Gee I'm confused. I thought that was what my priest, rabbi, minister or spiritual adviser was supposed to do. I thought I was a physician.Lyle Zurflu, D.C.From: "commongroundchiropractic@..." <commongroundchiropractic@...>"spinetree@..." <spinetree@...>; ; BERNICE FREEMAN

<hbf4747@...>Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 8:37:58 PMSubject: The future of Chiropractic

Since Herb and Lyndon and others changed this subject let's change the title. Herb in all due respect I beg to differ with you. The future of our profession is not in just the skillful use of instrument adjusting that is only 1 part (small or large who knows?) Of it. Let's not loose sight of the teachings of D. D. And B. J. In that the (paraphrasing) purpose of Chiropractic is to unite man the physical with man the spiritual. Now under that goal and those parameters is our art. Elliott MantellSent via BlackBerry by AT & TFrom: "spinetree@..." <spinetree@...>

Sender:

Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:13:52 -0800BERNICE FREEMAN<hbf4747@...>; <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: Re: Dry needling

Ohhh my.ph Medlin D.C.Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide----- Reply message -----From: "BERNICE FREEMAN" <hbf4747@...>Date: Sat, Jan 22, 2011 4:30 pmSubject: Re: Dry needling"" <Oregondcs >Lyndon that's why the future of our survival as a non duplicating health care profession lies in the skillful use of adjusting instruments. (there is nothing unique about the random cracking of the spine it is centuries old). Herb RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Right from our philosophyThe Power that made the body heals the body. The body cannot heal itself. Otherwise we could raise the dead. Only the connection to this power inside of us heals us. From above down inside out. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&TFrom: Lyle Zurflu <drzurflu@...>Sender: Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:03:59 -0800 (PST)<commongroundchiropractic@...>; spinetree@...<spinetree@...>; < >; BERNICE FREEMAN<hbf4747@...>Subject: Re: The future of Chiropractic Gee I'm confused. I thought that was what my priest, rabbi, minister or spiritual adviser was supposed to do. I thought I was a physician.Lyle Zurflu, D.C.From: "commongroundchiropractic@..." <commongroundchiropractic@...>"spinetree@..." <spinetree@...>; ; BERNICE FREEMAN<hbf4747@...>Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 8:37:58 PMSubject: The future of Chiropractic Since Herb and Lyndon and others changed this subject let's change the title. Herb in all due respect I beg to differ with you. The future of our profession is not in just the skillful use of instrument adjusting that is only 1 part (small or large who knows?) Of it. Let's not loose sight of the teachings of D. D. And B. J. In that the (paraphrasing) purpose of Chiropractic is to unite man the physical with man the spiritual. Now under that goal and those parameters is our art. Elliott MantellSent via BlackBerry by AT & TFrom: "spinetree@..." <spinetree@...>Sender: Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:13:52 -0800BERNICE FREEMAN<hbf4747@...>; <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: Re: Dry needling Ohhh my.ph Medlin D.C.Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide----- Reply message -----From: "BERNICE FREEMAN" <hbf4747@...>Date: Sat, Jan 22, 2011 4:30 pmSubject: Re: Dry needling"" <Oregondcs >Lyndon that's why the future of our survival as a non duplicating health care profession lies in the skillful use of adjusting instruments. (there is nothing unique about the random cracking of the spine it is centuries old). Herb RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

" Right from our philosophy. The Power that made the body heals the body.... "

Most of these types of statements are philosophical in nature. Philosophy is the

love of knowledge and we've amassed a huge amount of knowledge on this subject

since this statement was conceived by our founders. Without getting into the

philosophical/dogmatic issue behind " the power that made the body " ; I will

address " the power that heals the body " . The human body has innate abilities to

maintain homeostasis; in fact, our own health equilibrium waxes and wanes so

much that many of us refer to it as " homeodynamics " . This is literally, the body

healing itself on a minute to minute, hour to hour basis; without any religious

or spiritual connotations.

" ...The body cannot heal itself. Otherwise we could raise the dead.... "

This statement reflects a lack of understanding with regards to what constitutes

life. It is not just the ability to heal after insult; that is but a small part

of life; see above statement.... the body CAN and WILL heal itself under the

right conditions.

" ...Only the connection to this power inside of us heals us. From above down

inside out.... "

So only the power that made us can heal us but " only " a connection to this power

inside us heals us....? There are too many logical errors in this statement to

even think it could remotely represent reality.

Let's take the ideas and evolve them based on lovers of knowledge, teachers to

our patients and healers in our own right and by the power of our state

government. Let's not dwell on them as if they are the sum total of our

professions potential.

-Tim Irving DC, MS, LMT

[Guest guest]

Depends on your belief of what a physician is. Some DCs have a bigger belief in what they are actually doing eg) uniting man the physical with man the spiritual. That's the wonderful thing about being a DC... we are very free to believe whatever we want. I will say this, a complete holistic approach to helping patients should address the physical, emotional, social, and spiritual aspects of the patient. We need more docs to step up and do this in an evidence-based way, founded on solid wellness science. Jamey Dyson, DC, CCWPDoctor of Chiropractic (DC)Certified Chiropractic Wellness Practitioner (CCWP)Advanced Chiropractic, a licensed Eat Well Move Well Think Well® Center1295 Wallace Rd NW ◠Salem, OR 97304Phone: 503-361-3949 ◠Fax: 503-763-6444www.advanced-chiropractic-west-salem.com On Jan 23, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Lyle Zurflu wrote:Gee I'm confused. I thought that was what my priest, rabbi, minister or spiritual adviser was supposed to do. I thought I was a physician.Lyle Zurflu, D.C.From: "commongroundchiropractic@..." <commongroundchiropractic@...>"spinetree@..." <spinetree@...>; ; BERNICE FREEMAN <hbf4747@...>Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 8:37:58 PMSubject: The future of Chiropractic Since Herb and Lyndon and others changed this subject let's change the title. Herb in all due respect I beg to differ with you. The future of our profession is not in just the skillful use of instrument adjusting that is only 1 part (small or large who knows?) Of it. Let's not loose sight of the teachings of D. D. And B. J. In that the (paraphrasing) purpose of Chiropractic is to unite man the physical with man the spiritual. Now under that goal and those parameters is our art. Elliott MantellSent via BlackBerry by AT & TFrom: "spinetree@..." <spinetree@...>Sender: Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:13:52 -0800BERNICE FREEMAN<hbf4747@...>; <Oregondcs >Subject: Re: Re: Dry needling Ohhh my.ph Medlin D.C.Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide----- Reply message -----From: "BERNICE FREEMAN" <hbf4747@...>Date: Sat, Jan 22, 2011 4:30 pmSubject: Re: Dry needling"" <Oregondcs >Lyndon that's why the future of our survival as a non duplicating health care profession lies in the skillful use of adjusting instruments. (there is nothing unique about the random cracking of the spine it is centuries old). Herb RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]



"...in and evidence-based way..." your hitting a key statement we must proceed in a learned manner if as a profession we wish to gain cultural authority. Interestingly you also say "...we are very free to believe whatever we want." True enough however if what we believe our belief system or a specific theory is proven to be wrong we must as a profession discard or amend it. For example when sitting around a room of other evidence based health care professionals it isn't enough to simply say "I believe mandatory vaccinations are bad" if we wish to be equal players in the health care delivery system and taken seriously we must be able to support what we say with sound scientific evidence. For example we must fully discuss the evidence that supports a downside of not having our children, students, and adults vaccinated. Then include a review of the evidence that supports a downside to having our children, students, and adults vaccinated and a thoughtful review of the benefit to risk ratio in any geographic local and top that off with a bioethical discussion of informed consent etc., etc. The days are gone that we can simply say what we "believe" to be so without backing our statements up with evidence to support that belief. Vern Saboe

RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]



"...in and evidence-based way..." your hitting a key statement we must proceed in a learned manner if as a profession we wish to gain cultural authority. Interestingly you also say "...we are very free to believe whatever we want." True enough however if what we believe our belief system or a specific theory is proven to be wrong we must as a profession discard or amend it. For example when sitting around a room of other evidence based health care professionals it isn't enough to simply say "I believe mandatory vaccinations are bad" if we wish to be equal players in the health care delivery system and taken seriously we must be able to support what we say with sound scientific evidence. For example we must fully discuss the evidence that supports a downside of not having our children, students, and adults vaccinated. Then include a review of the evidence that supports a downside to having our children, students, and adults vaccinated and a thoughtful review of the benefit to risk ratio in any geographic local and top that off with a bioethical discussion of informed consent etc., etc. The days are gone that we can simply say what we "believe" to be so without backing our statements up with evidence to support that belief. Vern Saboe

RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

But also be questioning of the "evidence". From Eades, MD blog today:“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.â€ph Goebbels Reich Minister of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724drzurflu@...; drjdyson1@...; Oregondcs CC: commongroundchiropractic@...; spinetree@...; ; hbf4747@...From: vsaboe@...Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 10:51:02 -0800Subject: Re: The future of Chiropractic "...in and evidence-based way..." your hitting a key statement we must proceed in a learned manner if as a profession we wish to gain cultural authority. Interestingly you also say "...we are very free to believe whatever we want." True enough however if what we believe our belief system or a specific theory is proven to be wrong we must as a profession discard or amend it. For example when sitting around a room of other evidence based health care professionals it isn't enough to simply say "I believe mandatory vaccinations are bad" if we wish to be equal players in the health care delivery system and taken seriously we must be able to support what we say with sound scientific evidence. For example we must fully discuss the evidence that supports a downside of not having our children, students, and adults vaccinated. Then include a review of the evidence that supports a downside to having our children, students, and adults vaccinated and a thoughtful review of the benefit to risk ratio in any geographic local and top that off with a bioethical discussion of informed consent etc., etc. The days are gone that we can simply say what we "believe" to be so without backing our statements up with evidence to support that belief. Vern Saboe RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

But also be questioning of the "evidence". From Eades, MD blog today:“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.â€ph Goebbels Reich Minister of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724drzurflu@...; drjdyson1@...; Oregondcs CC: commongroundchiropractic@...; spinetree@...; ; hbf4747@...From: vsaboe@...Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 10:51:02 -0800Subject: Re: The future of Chiropractic "...in and evidence-based way..." your hitting a key statement we must proceed in a learned manner if as a profession we wish to gain cultural authority. Interestingly you also say "...we are very free to believe whatever we want." True enough however if what we believe our belief system or a specific theory is proven to be wrong we must as a profession discard or amend it. For example when sitting around a room of other evidence based health care professionals it isn't enough to simply say "I believe mandatory vaccinations are bad" if we wish to be equal players in the health care delivery system and taken seriously we must be able to support what we say with sound scientific evidence. For example we must fully discuss the evidence that supports a downside of not having our children, students, and adults vaccinated. Then include a review of the evidence that supports a downside to having our children, students, and adults vaccinated and a thoughtful review of the benefit to risk ratio in any geographic local and top that off with a bioethical discussion of informed consent etc., etc. The days are gone that we can simply say what we "believe" to be so without backing our statements up with evidence to support that belief. Vern Saboe RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]



Yes , the quality of the evidence is always scrutinized which is interesting that you brought that up as the recent review of infectious diseases society of American practice guidelines revealed that immunization's current clinical recommendations were primarily based on the lowest level of evidence or level III "expert opinion" nearly 60% only 18% was level I (properly designed RCTs)....that is what you hit'em with...so much like court when the other "medical model side" pulls their beebe gun I whipout me-Howitzer!

RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

DD Palmer said, " The philosophy of chiropractic is founded upon the knowledge of the manner in which a vital functions are performed by innate in health and disease. When the controlling intelligence is able to transmit mental impulses to all parts of the body, free and unobstructed, we have normal action which is health." http://drcaram.com/quotes-from-d-d-palmer-the-founder-of-chiropractic/"Mental impulses to all parts of the body" is not the same as moving bones away from sensitive parts of the NS. If we limit our empiricism to the mechanical aspects of interference to good nerve tone, then we completely deny the relationship of the sympathetic NS to the well-being of the whole organism. If our minds are tense, so also will be our bodies; if our minds are able to deeply relax, so also will our body. The sympathetic NS is the connection between innate and human self-healing and well-being.The vital and highly medically relevant issue of working with the mind to improve the function of the body is teaching people how to work with their bodies to discover the incredible capacities for self-healing available to us all. EG, the physiology of breathing influences greatly whether we are sympathetic or parasympathetic moment to moment, but how often do we teach patients to breathe properly in order to reduce the epidemic levels of hypertension and CV disease choking our health care system? Why do we refuse to implement the research Herbert Benson has accumulated on deep relaxation and it's health benefits? Why must we deny the light away from the campfire of empiricism that DD Palmer and Herbert Benson, that Darma Singh Khala, MD, ("Meditation as Medicine") and others point us toward.The mechanics of Chiropractic have taken us a long ways, and has helped humanity immensely. But we sell ourselves and our future short by denying that innate health is devoid of a "controlling intelligence able to transmit mental impulses to all parts of the body." We've called it "spiritual," but only because we had not yet learned how to recognize how to apply our human intelligence to the our own self-healing. Chiropractors are perfectly placed by tradition to work with chronic illnesses as well as MS disorders. Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.comOn Jan 23, 2011, at 10:51 AM, Vern Saboe wrote:  "...in and evidence-based way..." your hitting a key statement we must proceed in a learned manner if as a profession we wish to gain cultural authority. Interestingly you also say "...we are very free to believe whatever we want." True enough however if what we believe our belief system or a specific theory is proven to be wrong we must as a profession discard or amend it. For example when sitting around a room of other evidence based health care professionals it isn't enough to simply say "I believe mandatory vaccinations are bad" if we wish to be equal players in the health care delivery system and taken seriously we must be able to support what we say with sound scientific evidence. For example we must fully discuss the evidence that supports a downside of not having our children, students, and adults vaccinated. Then include a review of the evidence that supports a downside to having our children, students, and adults vaccinated and a thoughtful review of the benefit to risk ratio in any geographic local and top that off with a bioethical discussion of informed consent etc., etc. The days are gone that we can simply say what we "believe" to be so without backing our statements up with evidence to support that belief. Vern Saboe RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

In "The Body Electric", Becker, MD demonstrated it is possible to stimulate limb regeneration in higher vertebrates. The key wasn't specifically nerve but involved maintaining the extra-neuronal substance which seemed to allow a "secondary" nervous system to direct gene expression. It was extrapolated that this secondary nervous system was what is influenced by acupuncture, which changes polarity at the injury site. Pressure, manipulation, microcurrent, laser may all affect the same system. The one thing that will stop any chance of regeneration was surgical intervention which blocked the axoplasmic flow.....at least this is how I remember a book I read 25 years ago! Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724CC: drzurflu@...; drjdyson1@...; Oregondcs ; commongroundchiropractic@...; spinetree@...; hbf4747@...To: vsaboe@...From: dm.bones@...Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 11:50:58 -0800Subject: Re: The future of Chiropractic DD Palmer said, " The philosophy of chiropractic is founded upon the knowledge of the manner in which a vital functions are performed by innate in health and disease. When the controlling intelligence is able to transmit mental impulses to all parts of the body, free and unobstructed, we have normal action which is health." http://drcaram.com/quotes-from-d-d-palmer-the-founder-of-chiropractic/"Mental impulses to all parts of the body" is not the same as moving bones away from sensitive parts of the NS. If we limit our empiricism to the mechanical aspects of interference to good nerve tone, then we completely deny the relationship of the sympathetic NS to the well-being of the whole organism. If our minds are tense, so also will be our bodies; if our minds are able to deeply relax, so also will our body. The sympathetic NS is the connection between innate and human self-healing and well-being.The vital and highly medically relevant issue of working with the mind to improve the function of the body is teaching people how to work with their bodies to discover the incredible capacities for self-healing available to us all. EG, the physiology of breathing influences greatly whether we are sympathetic or parasympathetic moment to moment, but how often do we teach patients to breathe properly in order to reduce the epidemic levels of hypertension and CV disease choking our health care system? Why do we refuse to implement the research Herbert Benson has accumulated on deep relaxation and it's health benefits? Why must we deny the light away from the campfire of empiricism that DD Palmer and Herbert Benson, that Darma Singh Khala, MD, ("Meditation as Medicine") and others point us toward.The mechanics of Chiropractic have taken us a long ways, and has helped humanity immensely. But we sell ourselves and our future short by denying that innate health is devoid of a "controlling intelligence able to transmit mental impulses to all parts of the body." We've called it "spiritual," but only because we had not yet learned how to recognize how to apply our human intelligence to the our own self-healing. Chiropractors are perfectly placed by tradition to work with chronic illnesses as well as MS disorders. Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.comOn Jan 23, 2011, at 10:51 AM, Vern Saboe wrote:  "...in and evidence-based way..." your hitting a key statement we must proceed in a learned manner if as a profession we wish to gain cultural authority. Interestingly you also say "...we are very free to believe whatever we want." True enough however if what we believe our belief system or a specific theory is proven to be wrong we must as a profession discard or amend it. For example when sitting around a room of other evidence based health care professionals it isn't enough to simply say "I believe mandatory vaccinations are bad" if we wish to be equal players in the health care delivery system and taken seriously we must be able to support what we say with sound scientific evidence. For example we must fully discuss the evidence that supports a downside of not having our children, students, and adults vaccinated. Then include a review of the evidence that supports a downside to having our children, students, and adults vaccinated and a thoughtful review of the benefit to risk ratio in any geographic local and top that off with a bioethical discussion of informed consent etc., etc. The days are gone that we can simply say what we "believe" to be so without backing our statements up with evidence to support that belief. Vern Saboe RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Wasn't that one of the BEST books ever?! Made me wonder why we did all this hanging and pulling and strapping we do (did?) in orthopedic surgery....then suddenly (?) I was a DC and Carol McMakin's work was in front of me .... THERE it WAS!! It was so cool to find that the microcurrent work was actually coming to fruition. I love using it. It makes such a difference for my fibro patients. SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com From: dcdocbrian@...Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:08:22 -0800Subject: RE: The future of Chiropractic In "The Body Electric", Becker, MD demonstrated it is possible to stimulate limb regeneration in higher vertebrates. The key wasn't specifically nerve but involved maintaining the extra-neuronal substance which seemed to allow a "secondary" nervous system to direct gene expression. It was extrapolated that this secondary nervous system was what is influenced by acupuncture, which changes polarity at the injury site. Pressure, manipulation, microcurrent, laser may all affect the same system. The one thing that will stop any chance of regeneration was surgical intervention which blocked the axoplasmic flow.....at least this is how I remember a book I read 25 years ago! Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724CC: drzurflu@...; drjdyson1@...; Oregondcs ; commongroundchiropractic@...; spinetree@...; hbf4747@...To: vsaboe@...From: dm.bones@...Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 11:50:58 -0800Subject: Re: The future of Chiropractic DD Palmer said, " The philosophy of chiropractic is founded upon the knowledge of the manner in which a vital functions are performed by innate in health and disease. When the controlling intelligence is able to transmit mental impulses to all parts of the body, free and unobstructed, we have normal action which is health." http://drcaram.com/quotes-from-d-d-palmer-the-founder-of-chiropractic/"Mental impulses to all parts of the body" is not the same as moving bones away from sensitive parts of the NS. If we limit our empiricism to the mechanical aspects of interference to good nerve tone, then we completely deny the relationship of the sympathetic NS to the well-being of the whole organism. If our minds are tense, so also will be our bodies; if our minds are able to deeply relax, so also will our body. The sympathetic NS is the connection between innate and human self-healing and well-being.The vital and highly medically relevant issue of working with the mind to improve the function of the body is teaching people how to work with their bodies to discover the incredible capacities for self-healing available to us all. EG, the physiology of breathing influences greatly whether we are sympathetic or parasympathetic moment to moment, but how often do we teach patients to breathe properly in order to reduce the epidemic levels of hypertension and CV disease choking our health care system? Why do we refuse to implement the research Herbert Benson has accumulated on deep relaxation and it's health benefits? Why must we deny the light away from the campfire of empiricism that DD Palmer and Herbert Benson, that Darma Singh Khala, MD, ("Meditation as Medicine") and others point us toward.The mechanics of Chiropractic have taken us a long ways, and has helped humanity immensely. But we sell ourselves and our future short by denying that innate health is devoid of a "controlling intelligence able to transmit mental impulses to all parts of the body." We've called it "spiritual," but only because we had not yet learned how to recognize how to apply our human intelligence to the our own self-healing. Chiropractors are perfectly placed by tradition to work with chronic illnesses as well as MS disorders. Sears, DC, IAYT1218 NW 21st AvePortland, Oregon 97209v: 503-225-0255f: 503-525-6902www.docbones.comOn Jan 23, 2011, at 10:51 AM, Vern Saboe wrote:  "...in and evidence-based way..." your hitting a key statement we must proceed in a learned manner if as a profession we wish to gain cultural authority. Interestingly you also say "...we are very free to believe whatever we want." True enough however if what we believe our belief system or a specific theory is proven to be wrong we must as a profession discard or amend it. For example when sitting around a room of other evidence based health care professionals it isn't enough to simply say "I believe mandatory vaccinations are bad" if we wish to be equal players in the health care delivery system and taken seriously we must be able to support what we say with sound scientific evidence. For example we must fully discuss the evidence that supports a downside of not having our children, students, and adults vaccinated. Then include a review of the evidence that supports a downside to having our children, students, and adults vaccinated and a thoughtful review of the benefit to risk ratio in any geographic local and top that off with a bioethical discussion of informed consent etc., etc. The days are gone that we can simply say what we "believe" to be so without backing our statements up with evidence to support that belief. Vern Saboe RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]



Ah...great minds think alike. My dear colleague I am not suggesting we discard our empiricism nor deny the reality of innate intelligence and the body's ability to heal itself especially from a state of optimal health or homeostasis, "wellness." What I'm saying is we must be able to back up what we say with some level of evidence. Herbert Benson's work is a perfect example of some of the interventions that have evidence that supports their use that we as chiropractic physicians can bring to the table which our materialistic medical brethren simply don't have in their tool box. I need colleagues like you to bring tools such as the physiology of breathing and teaching Oregonians how to breathe properly and influence the chronic diseases so common and so costly. Or as a true preventative measure one of many lifestyle changes we instruct consumers and by doing so push them toward optimal health and wellness so they don't fall prey to acute or chronic illness in the first darn place. These are the "outside the medical box" stuff we can bring to Health Care Reform in Oregon and why we must and WILL have a seat at the table. just so you and like minded colleagues know we are pretty much on the same page here is a quote something written 15 years ago (geez has it been that long yikes!) in 1996:

"This author's concern as a committee member (OBCE guidelines), with regard to Mercy, is that their "consensus" had little to do with real world practice, or what the field at large have found to be empirically useful in their holistic, patient-centered, individualized treatment type practices. As stated earlier, I am concerned with Mercy's preoccupation with, and inappropriately high rating of the randomized controlled trial. Mercy, and especially the AHCPR, evidence tables have a distinctly materialistic medical slant to them. Materialistic refers to the notion that if something cannot be perceived, measured, recorded, transformed into data, and fully explained, it is epi-phenomenal and thus irrelevant. In my humble opinion, this has facilitated an overemphasis on data and methodology leading to medicine's preoccupation with the double-blind crossover study and the randomized controlled trial has led to the under-treatment of many conditions and made them top heavy (costly, which is why we have managed care) due to their irrational reliance on technology. It has naturally resulted in ignoring such obscure notions/concepts as a vital force or life force. This, as we all know, has led to medicine's continued rejection of the efficacy of much of what we do. It has contributed to traditional medicine's claims that chiropractic lacks scientific proof, (RCTs) despite the reality that such proof is lacking in 85% of what they do. In short, the result of this mechanistic view is that our medical brethren have lost the qualities of empathy, intuition, and communication skills. All of this has seemingly been exacerbated by their self-imposed mandate into managed care. They have sacrificed their humanistic qualities for hard data and deep in their souls consider themselves to be scientists, purveyors of the truth, immune from over-involvement with their patients, imagining themselves to be in a constant state of pure objectivity and in authoritarian control. Consequently, medical practice has become autocratic and patriarchal. Do we really want our profession to duplicate this?"

Vern Saboe DC, DACAN "OrthoNeuro Corner" CAO Journal 1996

RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]



Ah...great minds think alike. My dear colleague I am not suggesting we discard our empiricism nor deny the reality of innate intelligence and the body's ability to heal itself especially from a state of optimal health or homeostasis, "wellness." What I'm saying is we must be able to back up what we say with some level of evidence. Herbert Benson's work is a perfect example of some of the interventions that have evidence that supports their use that we as chiropractic physicians can bring to the table which our materialistic medical brethren simply don't have in their tool box. I need colleagues like you to bring tools such as the physiology of breathing and teaching Oregonians how to breathe properly and influence the chronic diseases so common and so costly. Or as a true preventative measure one of many lifestyle changes we instruct consumers and by doing so push them toward optimal health and wellness so they don't fall prey to acute or chronic illness in the first darn place. These are the "outside the medical box" stuff we can bring to Health Care Reform in Oregon and why we must and WILL have a seat at the table. just so you and like minded colleagues know we are pretty much on the same page here is a quote something written 15 years ago (geez has it been that long yikes!) in 1996:

"This author's concern as a committee member (OBCE guidelines), with regard to Mercy, is that their "consensus" had little to do with real world practice, or what the field at large have found to be empirically useful in their holistic, patient-centered, individualized treatment type practices. As stated earlier, I am concerned with Mercy's preoccupation with, and inappropriately high rating of the randomized controlled trial. Mercy, and especially the AHCPR, evidence tables have a distinctly materialistic medical slant to them. Materialistic refers to the notion that if something cannot be perceived, measured, recorded, transformed into data, and fully explained, it is epi-phenomenal and thus irrelevant. In my humble opinion, this has facilitated an overemphasis on data and methodology leading to medicine's preoccupation with the double-blind crossover study and the randomized controlled trial has led to the under-treatment of many conditions and made them top heavy (costly, which is why we have managed care) due to their irrational reliance on technology. It has naturally resulted in ignoring such obscure notions/concepts as a vital force or life force. This, as we all know, has led to medicine's continued rejection of the efficacy of much of what we do. It has contributed to traditional medicine's claims that chiropractic lacks scientific proof, (RCTs) despite the reality that such proof is lacking in 85% of what they do. In short, the result of this mechanistic view is that our medical brethren have lost the qualities of empathy, intuition, and communication skills. All of this has seemingly been exacerbated by their self-imposed mandate into managed care. They have sacrificed their humanistic qualities for hard data and deep in their souls consider themselves to be scientists, purveyors of the truth, immune from over-involvement with their patients, imagining themselves to be in a constant state of pure objectivity and in authoritarian control. Consequently, medical practice has become autocratic and patriarchal. Do we really want our profession to duplicate this?"

Vern Saboe DC, DACAN "OrthoNeuro Corner" CAO Journal 1996

RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]



Also, in all due respect... Instruments don't "cavitate" the joint. Therefore, instruments, don't "mobilize" or "restore" joint function. All beneficial reflexes aside...if you don't cavitate the joint you don't get the benefit of increased ROM (and, I'm not saying that's the whole world, but it is a LARGE and very important part of chiropractic). (:-)

M. s, D.C.

RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I think instrument adjusting is another great tool, and I would argue (with support for my argument available) that multiple impulse therapy (MIT) DOES restore joint motion without audible release (thumping on a segment 150 x over 8 seconds at 5-30lb per thump does move things!) However, I do not advocate abandoning manual adjusting and would argue that to know best when to use an instrument requires the fine motor skills and mental capabilities acquired in the learning and practice of manual techniques. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724 From: drbobdc83@...Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:45:35 -0800Subject: Re: The future of Chiropractic Also, in all due respect... Instruments don't "cavitate" the joint. Therefore, instruments, don't "mobilize" or "restore" joint function. All beneficial reflexes aside...if you don't cavitate the joint you don't get the benefit of increased ROM (and, I'm not saying that's the whole world, but it is a LARGE and very important part of chiropractic). (:-) M. s, D.C. RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]



Doctors,

I have successfully been using instrument assisted adjustments since 1980, during those 31 years I haven't found a single time that I've had to resort to a cavitation type of correction. However prior to that time I learned that it wasn't sufficient to own a tapping unit and "voila" the patient becomes well, anymore than buying a piano made me a pianist. I not only had to learn the proper utilization of the arthrostim in skeletal corrections but also it's use in myofascial releases and how to correct for laxity of ligaments, once I had mastered those aspects of instrument adjusting I never needed to rack another spine.

There are a few other areas I wish to address, it isn't necessary to "thump" a vertebra 150 times, two or three taps properly placed are usually all it takes to elicit a neural response which in turn alters the subluxation or ameliorates the TP or initiates a correction of ligamentous laxity.

A final word about earlier comments on the listserve, if any of you doctors are interested I will be happy to show you several thousands of before and after exams with dramatic changes in ROM and corresponding before and X-ray studies(all accomplished without a single cavitation) in my office any time you wish to visit.

Herb Freeman D.C.

RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Herb,

I was a hardcore Gonstead DC, even had my C7 adjusted by Dr. G

in one of his adjusting chairs.  That was a cavitation to write home about. 

 For the past 10 or 15 years I have done almost no osseous

adjusting and the results have been great.  For me the clincher was that I would

do the analysis including motion palpation, evaluation of muscle behavior, ROM,

gait and posture, and patient subjective report and I decide what were the

indicated osseous adjustments to perform.  Then I would do precise low force instrument

adjusting with the Arthrostim from IMPAC, that the indicators went away, most

importantly the patient’s report of symptoms.  The obvious question was why to

use a relatively more invasive and arguably more risky – even a little -  osseous

adjustment, unless the more conservative and benign instrument adjusting didn’t

get the job done.  And, it virtually never occurred   that it didn’t. There is

also far less potential for aggravating a spinal condition and associated

tissues.  The best explanation for chiropractic manipulation of any type seems

to be going in the direction that the subluxation isn’t about bones out of

place, it’s about inefficient neuromuscular patterning and any adjustment has

more to do with effecting mechanoreceptors than effecting bones directly. 

’s FMD patient is a good example.  I don’t think an

instrument adjuster would consider most FMD patients bore a great risk from

such procedures.

S. Feinberg, D.C.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of BERNICE

FREEMAN

Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:05 PM

Subject: Re: The future of Chiropractic



Doctors,

I have successfully been using instrument assisted adjustments since 1980,

during those 31 years I haven't found a single time that I've had to resort to

a cavitation type of correction. However prior to that time

I learned that it wasn't sufficient to own a tapping unit

and " voila " the patient becomes well, anymore than buying a

piano made me a pianist. I not only had to learn the

proper utilization of the arthrostim in skeletal corrections but

also it's use in myofascial releases and how to correct for laxity of

ligaments, once I had mastered those aspects of instrument adjusting I

never needed to rack another spine.

There are a few other areas I wish to address, it isn't necessary

to " thump " a vertebra 150 times, two or three taps properly

placed are usually all it takes to elicit a neural response which in

turn alters the subluxation or ameliorates the TP or initiates

a correction of ligamentous laxity.

A final word about earlier comments on the listserve, if any of

you doctors are interested I will be happy to show you several thousands

of before and after exams with dramatic changes in ROM and corresponding

before and X-ray studies(all accomplished without a single cavitation) in

my office any time you wish to visit.

Herb

Freeman D.C.

-----

Original Message -----

From: BRIAN SEITZ

oregon

DCs

Sent: Monday, January 24,

2011 12:19 PM

Subject: RE:

The future of Chiropractic

I think

instrument adjusting is another great tool, and I would argue (with support for

my argument available) that multiple impulse therapy (MIT) DOES restore joint

motion without audible release (thumping on a segment 150 x over 8 seconds at

5-30lb per thump does move things!)

However, I do not advocate abandoning manual

adjusting and would argue that to know best when to use an instrument requires

the fine motor skills and mental capabilities acquired in the

learning and practice of manual techniques.

Seitz,

DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724

To:

From:

drbobdc83@...

Date: Mon, 24

Jan 2011 11:45:35 -0800

Subject: Re:

The future of Chiropractic



Also,

in all due respect... Instruments don't " cavitate " the

joint. Therefore, instruments, don't " mobilize " or

" restore " joint function. All beneficial reflexes aside...if

you don't cavitate the joint you don't get the benefit of increased ROM (and,

I'm not saying that's the whole world, but it is a LARGE and very

important part of chiropractic). (:-)

M. s, D.C.

-----

Original Message -----

From: commongroundchiropractic@...

spinetree@...

; ; BERNICE FREEMAN

Sent: Saturday, January

22, 2011 8:38 PM

Subject: The

future of Chiropractic

Since

Herb and Lyndon and others changed this subject let's change the title.

Herb in all due respect I beg to differ with you. The future of our profession

is not in just the skillful use of instrument adjusting that is only 1 part

(small or large who knows?) Of it. Let's not loose sight of the teachings of D.

D. And B. J. In that the (paraphrasing) purpose of Chiropractic is to unite man

the physical with man the spiritual. Now under that goal and those parameters

is our art.

Elliott Mantell

Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T

From:

" spinetree@... "

<spinetree@...>

Sender:

Date:

Sat,

22 Jan 2011 20:13:52 -0800

To:

BERNICE

FREEMAN<hbf4747@...>; <Oregondcs >

Subject:

Re:

Re: Dry needling

Ohhh my.

ph Medlin D.C.

Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide

----- Reply message -----

From: " BERNICE FREEMAN " <hbf4747@...>

Date: Sat, Jan 22, 2011 4:30 pm

Subject: Re: Dry needling

" " <Oregondcs >

Lyndon that's why the future of our survival as a non duplicating health care

profession lies in the skillful use of adjusting instruments. (there is nothing

unique about the random cracking of the spine it is centuries old).

Herb

RE: Dry

needling

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[Guest guest]



Thanks for your response Les, there are times that I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness and then I get a wonderful message like yours. If only the profession( and the schools) would make the switch it would silence forever the critics who howl about the dangers of chiropractic adjusting.

RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >