Guest guest Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 I was playing basketball at our church one night and got a "catch" in my right upper back after diving for the ball. A DPT, who also attends our church, offered to work on me so I could keep playing. So I acquiesced and he did a little soft-tissue work and then, before I had a chance to object, he administered a very skillful HVLA thrust and "fixed" me in one treatment. I went back to playing with no pain. Needless to say, I was very impressed. I was an assistant instructor at the Pettibon seminars for many years and can say with authority that there are many DCs who just can't deliver a good manual adjustment. The docs and students attending the seminars were both young and old, and no matter the age or length of time in practice, there were some docs and students who, once they put their hands on you, you could tell that they had the "touch," while many others didn't. Many were better off just using instruments to do their adjusting for them. So, just like in our profession, there will be PTs who can skilfully administer HVLA adjustments and others who will have to relegate themselves to physiotherapy modalities. And, by the way, I had a patient several years ago who said that his barber was one of the best adjusters he had ever been to. So we're going to need a lot of luck restricting manipulation to our profession. :-) Lyndon McGill, D.C. Salem, Oregon www.SalemSpineClinic.com Evolving Doctors On 1/21/2011 10:23 AM, Schneider wrote: I most heartily agree with Danno here. I went to Life University for Chiropractic training and we spent years and many hours learning how to adjust and read X-rays accurately. Only then were we able to begin adjusting under supervision in the school clinic. As I understand it PT's have no where near this kind of training in adjusting. I grant that there are many sharp PTs out there with superb knowledge of NM system but this is not all that is required to adjust safely and with quality. I feel that if PTs want to adjust they should have the same training that we have -which is not excessive but just about right. It is clearly a public safety issue-not a turf war for the sake of egos or monetary gain. I would agree with Dr.Irving that dry needling for a DC is not equivalent to adjusting for PTs as to being a simple-safe extension of respective scopes of practice. A HVLA is a hell of a lot more dangerous in the hands of unskilled practitioner than dry needling a trigger point for doctor with extensive anatomical training. Let the PTs get some education if they wish to adjust. Schneider DC PDX On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 9:21 AM, D Beebe, D.C. <daniel.beebe@...> wrote: In all occupations there are those that attempt to better understand and to increase their knowledge base... the cream of the crop so to speak. The issue here is that the PT's are aggressively going into areas that they have no training or minimal training in... that is not a turf war it is a public safety issue. Funny how in every state that has passed a law requiring a thourogh educational process in adjusting .......the PT's don't adjust, hmmmmm. Feel free to chime in here Vern. You and I could probably spend 6-12 months under the tutelage of a good Orth surgeon and probaly be able to handle most surgeries that would come through the door, does that mean we should be able to do those surgeries in view of public safety? You may choose to view this as a turf war I do not. If indeed you want the patient's to benefit then have the PT's expand their educational process and prove that they are serious about public safety. Regards ----- Original Message ----- From: Snell oregon dc listserve Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 9:04 AM Subject: RE: Re: Dry needling Re: "Dr Snell... while you may not want to see that we aren't having a " turf" war.... the plain truth is that the PT's are not trained anywhere close to what is needed to do a safe assessment and adjustment of anyone.." I certainly see that we are having a professional turf war Dan. Sorry if the questioning of our individual philosophies raises some uncomfortable points. I think we can both agree that there is chaff in the DC and PT professions. Certainly w hen the marketplace pencils DCs into a "manipulation technician" model, many DCs will follow the path of least resistance and merely "pound down the high spots" with little regard to risk to the patient or accurate diagnosis. I am sure that you see missed diagnoses from your DC colleagues as well as from PTs, just like I do. I'm questioning the benefit of the turf war to the ones that matter most in this...the patients. At a different point in history, the turf war was more important. Now, as Rod pointed out, having the toolbox to be able to best manage the most common NMS complaints in public health is what's most important. Beyond the accurate diagnosis that some of us render, and an excellent adjustment, what do many of us have to offer to the public? Are we all well versed in diet and lifestyle interventions to help? Can we all synthesize a tailor made, rational, acute, subacute and longterm rehab exercise program that addresses the muscle imbalances that lead to the joint dysfunction and pain that we treat? I'd just love to see my profession move out of the turf war, non-patient centered arguments and just seek to be the acknowledged best choice the public has to manage these complaints from start to finish. I currently have 57 hours of CE under my belt for this year, with about 30 more hours on tap before my CE year ends in May. At least 50% of that CE has been done alongside PTs, ATCs and personal trainers. I will tell you that my personal experience has been that most of them don't fall into the category of sloppy work that many of us describe on this forum in talking about those professions. Indeed, most of them seem to have better understanding of the NMS pathology than many of the D Cs that show up at these events. I'd encourage folks to go and hang out with "the other" and learn a bit more about what they know instead of relying on what anecdotes you hear here and in school. At this point, personal trainers are getting a much better level of training in exercise management for NMS complaints than that we received at WSCC around 10-12 years ago. When a DC's knowledge base doesn't equal that of the trainer at the local gym, the market will decide who the public goes to for help with their complaints. To my mind, at this point in history, the public is best served by all of our professions having access to the therapies that will help them, provided the public safety is not in danger. Beyond that, it becomes a merit economy. Whoever has the best toolbox, the best delivery system and the most cost effective option will come out on top. I like our odds in that game, but only if we keep sharp (no pun intended on the dry needling). W. Snell, D.C. Director, Solutions Sports & Spine, Inc at Hawthorne Wellness Center 3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956 www.fixyourownback.com Member, American College of Sports Medicine Member, International Society of Clinical Rehabilitation Specialists ; drpsnell@... From: daniel.beebe@... Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 07:46:17 -0800 Subject: Re: Re: Dry needling They have no training in DDX or radiology and no more than cursory " weekend" manipulation classes. These people managed to lie to the OBCE and the legislature and get away with it ...our board should be going after these people with a vengence, in my opinion. The President of the PT board bragged to a freind of mine that " Oregon was one of the few states that allowed PT's to do CHIROPRACTIC manipulation. This was brought up within the legislature showing that the President LIED about the PT's doing manioulation even though they had written our board inicating that this was not their intent... unfortunately the legislative body did not dole out the punishment that the PT's so richly deserved for being untruthful. Again, I believe the board should be stopping this nonsense Dr Snell... while you may not want to see that we aren't having a " turf" war.... the plain truth is that the PT's are not trained anywhere close to what is needed to do a safe assessment and adjustment of anyone.. While working with the Lumberjacks I had a PT trainer bring a player over exclaiming that the player had a " patellar tendonitis" and would I do some ultrasound on the tendon. In fact the player actually had a small medial meniscus tear and internal derangement of the capsule. THEY ARE NOT ADEQUATELY TRAINED TO DO MANIPULATION........... nor DIAGNOSE. Vern is attempting to get a law passed that addresses this. It is not that we are attempting to keep them out of realm of manipulation it is the fact that the PT's are arrogant enough to believe that only minimal training provides a license to do as they want. regards Danno [From OregonDCs] Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques. > > > > Sharron Fuchs > > > > Sent from my iPhone > -- Schneider DC PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 You got it dear colleague.......Vern Saboe Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > Sent from my iPhone>-- Schneider DC PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Lyndon that's why the future of our survival as a non duplicating health care profession lies in the skillful use of adjusting instruments. (there is nothing unique about the random cracking of the spine it is centuries old). Herb Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > Sent from my iPhone>-- Schneider DC PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Ohhh my.ph Medlin D.C.Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide----- Reply message -----From: " BERNICE FREEMAN " <hbf4747@...>Date: Sat, Jan 22, 2011 4:30 pmSubject: Re: Dry needling " " <Oregondcs >Lyndon that's why the future of our survival as a non duplicating health care profession lies in the skillful use of adjusting instruments. (there is nothing unique about the random cracking of the spine it is centuries old). Herb RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Ohhh my.ph Medlin D.C.Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide----- Reply message -----From: " BERNICE FREEMAN " <hbf4747@...>Date: Sat, Jan 22, 2011 4:30 pmSubject: Re: Dry needling " " <Oregondcs >Lyndon that's why the future of our survival as a non duplicating health care profession lies in the skillful use of adjusting instruments. (there is nothing unique about the random cracking of the spine it is centuries old). Herb RE: Dry needling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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