Dry needling

[Guest guest]

This is a great discussion and a worthy procedure to discuss. I've

got patients at pain specialists who are doing the dry needling and

getting good results that I can see. Getting the OBCE to act or for

them to discuss this issue will take a direct letter to the OBCE I

think. The listserve is fine but indirect and not particularly

recognized as a petition to the OBCE.

I suggest continuing to flesh this out, get data on scope of

practice, how it fits in to our law, how it may be construed by our

board and other boards like the Acu's., MD, DO etc. These issues

will all have to be looked at by the OBCE to make a ruling. Even

then there are the scope issues to deal with.

I remember the low energy laser thing about 10 years ago and it was

very easy but necessary for the OBCE to consider and respond. I made

a specific application to the board on behalf of myself and Ron

Johannsen because we were part of the FDA controlled clinical

trials.

Nevertheless asking the OBCE to rule on this issue from a list serve

discussion forum is probably not an effective approach. Someone

needs to pick this up and do the homework.

Colwell, DC

On 1/11/2011 9:47 AM, Walter Wiese wrote:

Dear Board Members;

I too, would love to add dry needling to my

procedures, as another way to

address neuro-musculo-skeletal problems.

I previously practiced in Nevada for 17 years

and 8 in Costa Rica. I have found that taking

care of my patients immediate pain was difficult

and so very important. Chiropractic

adjustments alone has been the main stay for us

all for years, but I continued to look for

something more to relieve muscle tissue and

fascia problems. Ice and spray just does not

get it. WE need to add to our profession

anything that will help our patient achieve the

goal of not only health, but the immediate pain

relief they so desperately are asking for. I

believe dry needling is the answer.

I would be happy to take a course, focusing on

safety and procedures. I would hope that this

technique is not only allowed in the Great State

of Oregon, but that it can be taught in our

Oregon Chiropractic college. I cam to your

great state to practice after 22 years of

holding a license in Nevada, because of the

advanced why the state board thinks and allows

their doctors to practice specialty training and

certification in minor surgery and OB.

I would appreciate every doctor on the board to

consider what this can do for our profession in

our state.

Any safe, simple tool that can ultimately helps

us with our patients in my opinion is

inherently good. We are not giving up our

profession, we are only adding a small piece to

our profession that will give us a better foot

hold in all the professional care.

Respectfully,

Dr. Walt Wiese

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3373 - Release Date: 01/10/11 23:34:00

[Guest guest]

HI, On January 20th it will make 5 times that I have been to the board on this

issue. And there were others who have gone before me. One who went over 7 years

ago! The leg and ground work has been done over and over. The school is

involved. The OCA has made their statement. The teacher who teaches the UWS

sponsored course has chimed in as has the instructors at UWS. It is our law. Our

scope. Our board. Our future. We do not have to ask any other profession for

permission to work within our statutory legal framework. I ask everyone to write

to the board directly so they can hear your voice. Please ask them to

acknowledge our law. It really is as simple as that.

dave.mcteague@...

s. fuchs dc

> >

> > Dear Board Members;

> >

> > I too, would love to add dry needling to my procedures, as another way to

> > address neuro-musculo-skeletal problems.

> > I previously practiced in Nevada for 17 years and 8 in Costa Rica. I

> > have found that taking care of my patients immediate pain was

> > difficult and so very important. Chiropractic adjustments alone has

> > been the main stay for us all for years, but I continued to look for

> > something more to relieve muscle tissue and fascia problems. Ice and

> > spray just does not get it. WE need to add to our profession anything

> > that will help our patient achieve the goal of not only health, but

> > the immediate pain relief they so desperately are asking for. I

> > believe dry needling is the answer.

> >

> > I would be happy to take a course, focusing on safety and procedures.

> > I would hope that this technique is not only allowed in the Great

> > State of Oregon, but that it can be taught in our Oregon

> > Chiropractic college. I cam to your great state to practice after 22

> > years of holding a license in Nevada, because of the advanced why the

> > state board thinks and allows their doctors to practice specialty

> > training and certification in minor surgery and OB.

> >

> > I would appreciate every doctor on the board to consider what this can

> > do for our profession in our state.

> >

> > Any safe, simple tool that can ultimately helps us with our patients

> > in my opinion is inherently good. We are not giving up our

> > profession, we are only adding a small piece to our profession that

> > will give us a better foot hold in all the professional care.

> > Respectfully,

> > Dr. Walt Wiese

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3373 - Release Date: 01/10/11

23:34:00

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I will ask you then to communicate with the board.

s. fuchs dc

Dry needling

 

Dear friends,

 

Tomorrow is the day to approach the OBCE for acknowledgement that dry needling

is in our scope of practice. The board was 'approached' because several doctors

had gone to the board in the past and were denied. I then went to the board

because I felt the law used for denial was incorrect AND because I could see the

value of it from an article posted by Freeman years ago.

 

Here is my opinion:  Dry needling is in our scope of practice because it is a

physical therapy modality. This fact has been proven repeatedly and has legal

precedent in other states ie land. For the 'physical therapy modality'

reason alone the board has ample reason to acknowledge dry needling to be in our

scope of practice.

 

In addition to dry needling being a PT modality, dry needling is now taught

through 'recognized' Chiropractic schools. The faculty of National has been

trained and are in the process of implementing it with their other treatment

modalities. Our own University of Western States teaches dry needling through

its post graduate courses and has laid the foundation for full teaching of it in

the school. The final stages for the school program is in progress.

 

In addition, there is nothing in our law that states anything must be taught as

a 'core' class in order to be in our scope. In fact, with some things in our

scope ie breast thermography, it doesn't have to be taught in the schools at

all.

 

The teaching of dry needling is something to be taken seriously. It takes

training and attention. Our post graduate course taught by a DC is 12 hours. It

is outrageous to think that the Naturopaths passed a 2 hour training requirement

for themselves to inject trigger points anywhere in the body yet joined forces

with those who think we are too stupid to do dry needling with 6 times that

amount of training.

 

I contend that if we don't take what is rightfully ours on this issue we will

have to fight for every millimeter of expansion we might seek in the future.

 

So tomorrow myself and others will go to the board for a 5th time. I should not

have to speak one word ,nor should I have to listen to one word of opposition.

It is none of our opponents business. It is our business. These are our hard

fought for laws and our practice. This should be a simple thing - follow our

laws - give us our rights within our laws -  don't cow tow to those who wish to

confine us -and let us move forward.

 

 

Sharron Fuchs

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

it appears to me the dry needling has nothing to do with balancing the 5 elements or the flow of chi through the traditional meridians or anything discussed by the Yellow Emperor but it appears to be based on western North American and European science which includes human dissection. The Ancient Chinese did not study human dissection.

From: Alan <alansmithdc@...>Subject: RE: Dry needling Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2011, 12:57 PM

Dear Colleagues: I have no problem with "Dry Needling" (which we all know is a code word for acupuncture, to skirt the current laws,), as long as Chiropractors have to pass the same National Acupuncture Board Examination that acupuncturists must to practice in the State of Oregon. Alan D.C.

From: sharronf@...Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:03:23 -0800Subject: Dry needling

Dear friends,

Tomorrow is the day to approach the OBCE for acknowledgement that dry needling is in our scope of practice. The board was ‘approached’ because several doctors had gone to the board in the past and were denied. I then went to the board because I felt the law used for denial was incorrect AND because I could see the value of it from an article posted by Freeman years ago.

Here is my opinion: Dry needling is in our scope of practice because it is a physical therapy modality. This fact has been proven repeatedly and has legal precedent in other states ie land. For the ‘physical therapy modality’ reason alone the board has ample reason to acknowledge dry needling to be in our scope of practice.

In addition to dry needling being a PT modality, dry needling is now taught through ‘recognized’ Chiropractic schools. The faculty of National has been trained and are in the process of implementing it with their other treatment modalities. Our own University of Western States teaches dry needling through its post graduate courses and has laid the foundation for full teaching of it in the school. The final stages for the school program is in progress.

In addition, there is nothing in our law that states anything must be taught as a ‘core’ class in order to be in our scope. In fact, with some things in our scope ie breast thermography, it doesn’t have to be taught in the schools at all.

The teaching of dry needling is something to be taken seriously. It takes training and attention. Our post graduate course taught by a DC is 12 hours. It is outrageous to think that the Naturopaths passed a 2 hour training requirement for themselves to inject trigger points anywhere in the body yet joined forces with those who think we are too stupid to do dry needling with 6 times that amount of training.

I contend that if we don’t take what is rightfully ours on this issue we will have to fight for every millimeter of expansion we might seek in the future.

So tomorrow myself and others will go to the board for a 5th time. I should not have to speak one word ,nor should I have to listen to one word of opposition. It is none of our opponents business. It is our business. These are our hard fought for laws and our practice. This should be a simple thing – follow our laws – give us our rights within our laws – don’t cow tow to those who wish to confine us -and let us move forward.

Sharron Fuchs

[Guest guest]

Dry Needling and Acupuncture have two very

different purposes and applications. It is like saying weight lifting and ultra

Marat honing are the same.

Ted Forcum,

DC, DACBSP

ACA Sports Council, Past President

'08 US Olympic

Sports Medicine Team Member

Back

In Motion Sports Injuries Clinic, LLC

11385 SW Scholls Ferry Road

Beaverton, Oregon 97008

503.524.9040

www.bimsportsinjuries.com

The information contained in this

electronic message may contain protected health information confidential under

applicable law, and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity

named above. If the recipient of this message is not the intended recipient,

you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copy or disclosure of this

communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication

in error, please notify Back In Motion Sports Injuries Clinic, LLC at 11385 SW Scholls Ferry Road, Beaverton, OR-97008.

and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or

distribution.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Alan

Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011

12:57 PM

Subject: RE: Dry

needling

Dear Colleagues:

I have no problem with " Dry Needling " (which

we all know is a code word for acupuncture, to skirt the current laws,), as

long as Chiropractors have to pass the same National Acupuncture Board

Examination that acupuncturists must to practice in the State of Oregon.

Alan D.C.

From: sharronf@...

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:03:23 -0800

Subject: Dry needling

Dear friends,

Tomorrow is the day to approach the OBCE for acknowledgement

that dry needling is in our scope of practice. The board was ‘approached’

because several doctors had gone to the board in the past and were denied. I

then went to the board because I felt the law used for denial was incorrect AND

because I could see the value of it from an article posted by Freeman

years ago.

Here is my opinion: Dry needling is in our scope of

practice because it is a physical therapy modality. This fact has been proven repeatedly

and has legal precedent in other states ie land. For the ‘physical therapy

modality’ reason alone the board has ample reason to acknowledge dry needling

to be in our scope of practice.

In addition to dry needling being a PT modality, dry needling

is now taught through ‘recognized’ Chiropractic schools. The faculty of

National has been trained and are in the process of implementing it with their

other treatment modalities. Our own University of Western States teaches dry

needling through its post graduate courses and has laid the foundation for full

teaching of it in the school. The final stages for the school program is in

progress.

In addition, there is nothing in our law that states

anything must be taught as a ‘core’ class in order to be in our scope. In fact,

with some things in our scope ie breast thermography, it doesn’t have to be

taught in the schools at all.

The teaching of dry needling is something to be taken

seriously. It takes training and attention. Our post graduate course taught by

a DC is 12 hours. It is outrageous to think that the Naturopaths passed a 2

hour training requirement for themselves to inject trigger points anywhere in

the body yet joined forces with those who think we are too stupid to do dry

needling with 6 times that amount of training.

I contend that if we don’t take what is rightfully ours on

this issue we will have to fight for every millimeter of expansion we might

seek in the future.

So tomorrow myself and others will go to the board for a 5th

time. I should not have to speak one word ,nor should I have to listen to one

word of opposition. It is none of our opponents business. It is our business.

These are our hard fought for laws and our practice. This should be a simple

thing – follow our laws – give us our rights within our laws – don’t cow

tow to those who wish to confine us -and let us move forward.

Sharron Fuchs

[Guest guest]

The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The

training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the

Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great

credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along

with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of

this with other myofascial techniques.

Sharron Fuchs

Sent from my iPhone

[Guest guest]

As our knowledge increases we must adopt new models. Previously on the list serve was a reference to Warren Hammer's recent article regarding our mistaken concepts of anatomy. A great deal of chronic pain and dysfunction is myofascial in nature and it has a suprisingly huge affect on the nervous system including the CNS. DD and BJ Palmer pointed the way but remember the finger that points to the moon is not the moon. It is an exiting time to be alive. Excesior Kahn DC Eugene

From: ph Medlin <spinetree@...>Subject: Re: Re: Dry needling , "sharron" <sharronf@...>Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 5:18 PM

Jack of all trades, perhaps eventually master of none. We all do everything it seems here in Oregon. Provider identity is becoming hazy. One would think that Spinal Manipulation would be the identity of Chiropractors, Needling the identity of Accupuncture, Fascial Manipulation that of Rolfing, Natural Medicine that of ND's, Hemmorrhoids that of some unfortunate MD........ I guess for a state who hates "scope of practice" bills, this is what you get.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: sharron

Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:35 PM

Subject: Re: Dry needling

That horse is out of the barn and waayy down the road. . PTs do manipulation and we are not going to be able to change that.s. fuchs dc >> > Nice work all, this will be a great therapy for us to have to help patients. In the same vein, I'd be interested in the opinions of the listees on comparisions and contrasts to how this process relates to the desire of PTs to manipulate. Are we DCs, in our opposition to PTs manipulating the spine, as poorly informed as the LAcs and NDs who were in opposition to us dry needling? Just curious...> > W. Snell,> D.C. > > Director, Solutions > Sports & Spine, Inc > at Hawthorne Wellness

Center> > 3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > > Portland, OR 97214 > > Ph. 503-235-5484 > > Fax 503-235-3956> > www.fixyourownback.com> > Member,> > American College of Sports Medicine> Member, International > Society of > Clinical Rehabilitation Specialists> > > > > From: dcdocbrian@...> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:14:49 -0800> Subject: RE: Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > Congratulations! > > Seitz, DC > Tuality Physicians > 730-D SE Oak St > Hillsboro, OR 97123 > (503)640-3724> > > > > From: sharronf@...> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:49:15 -0800> Subject: Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules

committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > Sent from my iPhone>

[Guest guest]

If we do not start expanding our scope of practice now, we will be lost and

forgotten with the u p comming changes in health care. Each indiviual can

practice how they want

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Dry needling & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;

& gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;

& gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;

& gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; The board has

determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed

consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee.

Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's

effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other

visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with

other myofascial techniques. & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; Sharron

Fuchs & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; Sent from my

iPhone & gt;

[Guest guest]

Wrong DCs do rhoids.SharronSent from my iPhoneOn Jan 20, 2011, at 5:16 PM, "ph Medlin" <spinetree@...> wrote: Jack of all trades, perhaps eventually master of none. We all do everything it seems here in Oregon. Provider identity is becoming hazy. One would think that Spinal Manipulation would be the identity of Chiropractors, Needling the identity of Accupuncture, Fascial Manipulation that of Rolfing, Natural Medicine that of ND's, Hemmorrhoids that of some unfortunate MD........ I guess for a state who hates "scope of practice" bills, this is what you get. ph Medlin D.C.From: sharron Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Dry needling That horse is out of the barn and waayy down the road. . PTs do manipulation and we are not going to be able to change that.s. fuchs dc >> > Nice work all, this will be a great therapy for us to have to help patients. In the same vein, I'd be interested in the opinions of the listees on comparisions and contrasts to how this process relates to the desire of PTs to manipulate. Are we DCs, in our opposition to PTs manipulating the spine, as poorly informed as the LAcs and NDs who were in opposition to us dry needling? Just curious...> > W. Snell,> D.C. > > Director, Solutions > Sports & Spine, Inc > at Hawthorne Wellness Center> > 3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > > Portland, OR 97214 > > Ph. 503-235-5484 > > Fax 503-235-3956> > www.fixyourownback.com> > Member,> > American College of Sports Medicine> Member, International > Society of > Clinical Rehabilitation Specialists> > > > > From: dcdocbrian@...> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:14:49 -0800> Subject: RE: Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congratulations! > > Seitz, DC > Tuality Physicians > 730-D SE Oak St > Hillsboro, OR 97123 > (503)640-3724> > > > > From: sharronf@...> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:49:15 -0800> Subject: Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > Sent from my iPhone>

[Guest guest]

If I recall, chiropractors in years past

treated all sorts of ailments and acted like internists that do adjustments. It

seems like our focus has narrowed from those working decades before us. I agree

that our profession has an identity problem. I wish we had the option of

specializing or generalizing as the MD’s have. It seems that every

advertises that they specialize in everything (sports, PI, WC, headaches, back

pain…).

Ted Forcum,

DC, DACBSP

ACA Sports Council, Past President

'08 US Olympic

Sports Medicine Team Member

Back

In Motion Sports Injuries Clinic, LLC

11385 SW Scholls Ferry Road

Beaverton, Oregon 97008

503.524.9040

www.bimsportsinjuries.com

The information contained in this

electronic message may contain protected health information confidential under

applicable law, and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity

named above. If the recipient of this message is not the intended

recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copy or disclosure

of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this

communication in error, please notify Back In Motion Sports Injuries Clinic,

LLC at 11385 SW Scholls Ferry Road,

Beaverton, OR-97008.

and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or

distribution.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of ph Medlin

Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011

5:19 PM

;

sharron

Subject: Re: Re:

Dry needling

Jack of all trades, perhaps eventually master of

none. We all do everything it seems here in Oregon. Provider identity is becoming hazy.

One would think that Spinal Manipulation would be the identity of

Chiropractors, Needling the identity of Accupuncture, Fascial Manipulation that

of Rolfing, Natural Medicine that of ND's, Hemmorrhoids that of some

unfortunate MD........ I guess for a state who hates " scope of

practice " bills, this is what you get.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: sharron

Sent: Thursday,

January 20, 2011 2:35 PM

Subject: [From

OregonDCs] Re: Dry needling

That horse is out of the barn and waayy down the road.

.. PTs do manipulation and we are not going to be able to change that.

s. fuchs dc

>

>

> Nice work all, this will be a great therapy for us to have to help

patients. In the same vein, I'd be interested in the opinions of the listees on

comparisions and contrasts to how this process relates to the desire of PTs to

manipulate. Are we DCs, in our opposition to PTs manipulating the spine, as

poorly informed as the LAcs and NDs who were in opposition to us dry needling?

Just curious...

>

> W. Snell,

> D.C.

>

> Director, Solutions

> Sports & Spine, Inc

> at Hawthorne

Wellness Center

>

> 3942 SE Hawthorne

Blvd.

>

> Portland, OR 97214

>

> Ph. 503-235-5484

>

> Fax 503-235-3956

>

> www.fixyourownback.com

>

> Member,

>

> American College of Sports Medicine

> Member, International

> Society of

> Clinical Rehabilitation Specialists

>

>

>

>

> From: dcdocbrian@...

> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:14:49 -0800

> Subject: RE: Dry needling

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Congratulations!

>

> Seitz, DC

> Tuality Physicians

> 730-D SE Oak St

> Hillsboro, OR 97123

> (503)640-3724

>

>

>

>

> From: sharronf@...

> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:49:15 -0800

> Subject: Dry needling

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The

training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the

Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take

great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with

other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this

with other myofascial techniques.

>

>

>

> Sharron Fuchs

>

>

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

[Guest guest]

Vern, can shed some light on this one for me. Can PTs perform HVLA in OR?Sharron, you've got no argument from me on the dry needling topic, I think it's great! The point I'm trying to make is that our argument that dry needling is not acupuncture is very similar to that of PTs wanting to do HVLA. Their long lever methods look more like DOs and more like Grade 5 Maitland mobilizations than what most of us consider to be HVLA. I'm just wondering if we're being hypocritical by trying to keep PTs from that therapy. In my rehab based practice, I'm frequently hanging out with PTs at seminars. Their most common beef against DCs is the fights within the states to deny them the right to perform HVLA. Just seems to me that if we are all behaving in a truly patient centered manner, then let the different disciplines do whatever therapies they want (as long as the public health isn't in danger) and let the market sort it out. That, by the way is the closest to sounding like a Republican you'll get out of me in 1 day!"Medical" acupuncture has been around for years, Amaro, DC has one of the bigger schools in FL I think. 7 years ago when I considered the program, you could get a Med. Ac. degree with about 6 months of training, which was mostly NMS based, with some 5 element theory. The dry needling is trigger point therapy, which jives well with Hong's, Simon's, Gunn's, Travell's, Mense research on trigger point therapies. A lot of that needling technique grew out of the observed phenomena of TPs when they were skewered with EMG needles. W. Snell,

D.C. Director, Solutions Sports & Spine, Inc at Hawthorne Wellness Center

3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956

www.fixyourownback.comMember,

American College of Sports MedicineMember, International Society of Clinical Rehabilitation Specialists From: sharronf@...Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:27:28 +0000Subject: Re: Dry needling

I believe you are wrong. PTs can do HVLA and have been doing it for years. The only issue that was going to be looked into was their training and safety but that issue has now passed away. Dry needling is not Acupuncture. Yes, it uses the same tool , meaning a needle, but that is where any similarity ends.

s.fuchs dc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Nice work all, this will be a great therapy for us to have to help patients. In the same vein, I'd be interested in the opinions of the listees on comparisions and contrasts to how this process relates to the desire of PTs to manipulate. Are we DCs, in our opposition to PTs manipulating the spine, as poorly informed as the LAcs and NDs who were in opposition to us dry needling? Just curious...

>

> >

>

> > W. Snell,

>

> > D.C.

>

> >

>

> > Director, Solutions

>

> > Sports & Spine, Inc

>

> > at Hawthorne Wellness Center

>

> >

>

> > 3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

>

> >

>

> > Portland, OR 97214

>

> >

>

> > Ph. 503-235-5484

>

> >

>

> > Fax 503-235-3956

>

> >

>

> > www.fixyourownback.com

>

> >

>

> > Member,

>

> >

>

> > American College of Sports Medicine

>

> > Member, International

>

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> > From: dcdocbrian@

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> > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:14:49 -0800

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> > Subject: RE: Dry needling

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> > Congratulations!

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> > Seitz, DC

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> > Tuality Physicians

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> > 730-D SE Oak St

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> > Hillsboro, OR 97123

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> > (503)640-3724

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> > From: sharronf@

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> > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:49:15 -0800

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> > Subject: Dry needling

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> > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.

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> > Sharron Fuchs

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> > Sent from my iPhone

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[Guest guest]

The Doctors of Physical Therapy's 2020 plan calls for first contact portal

of entry primary care provider status, prescription authority, injectible

nutrients, etc., etc. The nurses have expanded and are also performing

spinal manipulation as are " Doctors of Oriental Medicine " and the

naturopathic physicians. The new osteopathic college being built in my neck

of the woods is making spinal manipulation a required course of

study.....once cased off by the DOs...and as I say everyone else is jumping

on the spinal manipulation/adjusting bandwagon...we do not own spinal

manipulation we simply must continue to have a better product.

Meanwhile another issue to consider for our future is the possibility if not

the probability that via the " Codex Alimentarius " international agreements

nutrient supplements, botanicals, etc. will fall under prescription and

without prescriptive authority we and other may no longer be able to

dispense them in our clinics as a supposed patient safety angle via " big

pharma. " Also provider types that gain prescription authority can take

consumers of the lousy meds they are on in favor of less invasive spinal

manipulation, nutrients, botanicals, and homeopathic interventions, diet,

and exercise...

Currently, as least according to one recent review our marketshare has gone

from 10% of the general population down to seeing just 7% will the drop

continue? Are we to be further marginalized to even a small box as other

groups " move on? "

The current governor for Oregon believes (at least for now) that

chiropractic physicians are or can be " Primary Care Providers " and while

practicing to the height of their licensure will be critical to helping to

fill the need for primary care physicians which are in very short supply and

the need for primary are providers is only growing. Jan. 1 of this year

approx. 78 million Americans became eligible for Medicare benefits with many

allopathic doctors refusing to treat Medicare patients who will be their

PCP? This will only be exacerbated by the Universal Health Care System due

to come online fully in 2015...

There is a reason why the ACA passed a key resolution relative to DCs acting

as Primary Care Physicians, why several schools have gone to University

status, why several advance degree programs are being taught and more coming

e.g., National University of Health Sciences " Masters of Science in Advance

Practices, " why the CCE proposed and will likely adopt the language changes

they just put forth, and why multiple states have, are, or gearing up to go

to their state legislatures asking for some form of expansion of their scope

of practices...

Just some thoughts at the end of a long day....good meetings at the Capitol

today however....

Vern Saboe, DC

Dry needling & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;

& gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;

& gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;

& gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; The board has

determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training ,

informed

consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee.

Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for

it's

effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other

visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this

with

other myofascial techniques. & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; Sharron

Fuchs & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; Sent from my

iPhone & gt;

------------------------------------

All posts must adhere to OregonDCs rules located on homepage at:

/

Tell a colleague about OregonDCs! (must be licensed Oregon DC)

Links

[Guest guest]

Yes, see my post and everyone else on the face of the planet is learning the procedure as well...you are hitting the target....the market place...we simply must have a better product....Vern

Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > > > > > > > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone> > >>

[Guest guest]

They have no training in DDX or radiology and no more than cursory " weekend" manipulation classes. These people managed to lie to the OBCE and the legislature and get away with it ...our board should be going after these people with a vengence, in my opinion.

The President of the PT board bragged to a freind of mine that " Oregon was one of the few states that allowed PT's to do CHIROPRACTIC manipulation. This was brought up within the legislature showing that the President LIED about the PT's doing manioulation even though they had written our board inicating that this was not their intent... unfortunately the legislative body did not dole out the punishment that the PT's so richly deserved for being untruthful. Again, I believe the board should be stopping this nonsense

Dr Snell... while you may not want to see that we aren't having a " turf" war.... the plain truth is that the PT's are not trained anywhere close to what is needed to do a safe assessment and adjustment of anyone..

While working with the Lumberjacks I had a PT trainer bring a player over exclaiming that the player had a " patellar tendonitis" and would I do some ultrasound on the tendon. In fact the player actually had a small medial meniscus tear and internal derangement of the capsule.

THEY ARE NOT ADEQUATELY TRAINED TO DO MANIPULATION........... nor DIAGNOSE.

Vern is attempting to get a law passed that addresses this.

It is not that we are attempting to keep them out of realm of manipulation it is the fact that the PT's are arrogant enough to believe that only minimal training provides a license to do as they want.

regards

Danno

Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > Sent from my iPhone>

[Guest guest]

What we do 'looks' easy ... people have no idea the thought, design, physiology and intent behind it.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

; drpsnell@...From: daniel.beebe@...Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 07:46:17 -0800Subject: Re: Re: Dry needling

They have no training in DDX or radiology and no more than cursory " weekend" manipulation classes. These people managed to lie to the OBCE and the legislature and get away with it ...our board should be going after these people with a vengence, in my opinion.

The President of the PT board bragged to a freind of mine that " Oregon was one of the few states that allowed PT's to do CHIROPRACTIC manipulation. This was brought up within the legislature showing that the President LIED about the PT's doing manioulation even though they had written our board inicating that this was not their intent... unfortunately the legislative body did not dole out the punishment that the PT's so richly deserved for being untruthful. Again, I believe the board should be stopping this nonsense

Dr Snell... while you may not want to see that we aren't having a " turf" war.... the plain truth is that the PT's are not trained anywhere close to what is needed to do a safe assessment and adjustment of anyone..

While working with the Lumberjacks I had a PT trainer bring a player over exclaiming that the player had a " patellar tendonitis" and would I do some ultrasound on the tendon. In fact the player actually had a small medial meniscus tear and internal derangement of the capsule.

THEY ARE NOT ADEQUATELY TRAINED TO DO MANIPULATION........... nor DIAGNOSE.

Vern is attempting to get a law passed that addresses this.

It is not that we are attempting to keep them out of realm of manipulation it is the fact that the PT's are arrogant enough to believe that only minimal training provides a license to do as they want.

regards

Danno

Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > Sent from my iPhone>

[Guest guest]

I would like to chime in and state that while dry needling, or what I would like

to call, " needle assisted soft tissue therapy " , utilizes small gauge needles,

and this alone resembles acupuncture; it is a different treatment utilized for a

different paradigm and diagnostic criteria.

PTs (some of them), are utilizing HVLA manipulation. While some may argue that

this is not a " chiropractic adjustment " , it more than resembles what we

do.nThere really shouldn't be any comparison between PTs doing HVLA and DCs

utilizing small gauge needles to treat myofascial trigger and tender points and

fascial densifications.

Note: this is not a statement for or against PTs doing HVLA, just a

clarification that I thought was prudent to make.

-Tim Irving DC, MS, LMT

[Guest guest]

" Jack of all trades, perhaps eventually master of none. We all do everything it

seems here in Oregon. Provider identity is becoming hazy. One would think that

Spinal Manipulation would be the identity of Chiropractors, Needling the

identity of Accupuncture, Fascial Manipulation that of Rolfing, Natural Medicine

that of ND's, Hemmorrhoids that of some unfortunate MD........ I guess for a

state who hates " scope of practice " bills, this is what you get. "

This may be oversimplifying things a bit. Would you trust the generic

acupuncturist with treating neuromyofascial issues related to your spinal

manipulations? would you trust that they are supporting your work and not going

off on " tangents " , based on their paradigm?

How about a Rolfer? Would the patient need to go through a whole 10 session

Rolfing series? if not, how many would they need?

This " jack of all trades.... " argument has been brought up so many times; it can

get pretty silly. Here's an idea; how about we strive to be experts on the

neuromusculoskeletal system and go even farther to learn as much as we can about

how the rest of the body interrelated to that system...

Doing anything else seems a bit reductionist in nature and (in my biased

opinion), intellectually lazy. We are doctors, let's be the best natural, hands

on doctors we can be!

Sure, we are always gong to be drawn in different directions, but that's the

beauty of our profession; we can all work in different ways that complement each

other. If we get that idea, maybe we will see more intrachiropractic referrals

and be able to treat our patients ethically and holistically without seeming

fragmented as a profession.

-Tim Irving DC, MS, LMT

[Guest guest]

Re: "Dr Snell... while you may not want to see that we aren't having a " turf" war.... the plain truth is that the PT's are not trained anywhere close to what is needed to do a safe assessment and adjustment of anyone.."I certainly see that we are having a professional turf war Dan. Sorry if the questioning of our individual philosophies raises some uncomfortable points. I think we can both agree that there is chaff in the DC and PT professions. Certainly when the marketplace pencils DCs into a "manipulation technician" model, many DCs will follow the path of least resistance and merely "pound down the high spots" with little regard to risk to the patient or accurate diagnosis. I am sure that you see missed diagnoses from your DC colleagues as well as from PTs, just like I do. I'm questioning the benefit of the turf war to the ones that matter most in this...the patients. At a different point in history, the turf war was more important. Now, as Rod pointed out, having the toolbox to be able to best manage the most common NMS complaints in public health is what's most important. Beyond the accurate diagnosis that some of us render, and an excellent adjustment, what do many of us have to offer to the public? Are we all well versed in diet and lifestyle interventions to help? Can we all synthesize a tailor made, rational, acute, subacute and longterm rehab exercise program that addresses the muscle imbalances that lead to the joint dysfunction and pain that we treat? I'd just love to see my profession move out of the turf war, non-patient centered arguments and just seek to be the acknowledged best choice the public has to manage these complaints from start to finish. I currently have 57 hours of CE under my belt for this year, with about 30 more hours on tap before my CE year ends in May. At least 50% of that CE has been done alongside PTs, ATCs and personal trainers. I will tell you that my personal experience has been that most of them don't fall into the category of sloppy work that many of us describe on this forum in talking about those professions. Indeed, most of them seem to have better understanding of the NMS pathology than many of the DCs that show up at these events.I'd encourage folks to go and hang out with "the other" and learn a bit more about what they know instead of relying on what anecdotes you hear here and in school. At this point, personal trainers are getting a much better level of training in exercise management for NMS complaints than that we received at WSCC around 10-12 years ago. When a DC's knowledge base doesn't equal that of the trainer at the local gym, the market will decide who the public goes to for help with their complaints. To my mind, at this point in history, the public is best served by all of our professions having access to the therapies that will help them, provided the public safety is not in danger. Beyond that, it becomes a merit economy. Whoever has the best toolbox, the best delivery system and the most cost effective option will come out on top. I like our odds in that game, but only if we keep sharp (no pun intended on the dry needling). W. Snell,

D.C. Director, Solutions Sports & Spine, Inc at Hawthorne Wellness Center

3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956

www.fixyourownback.comMember,

American College of Sports MedicineMember, International Society of Clinical Rehabilitation Specialists ; drpsnell@...From: daniel.beebe@...Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 07:46:17 -0800Subject: Re: Re: Dry needling

They have no training in DDX or radiology and no more than cursory " weekend" manipulation classes. These people managed to lie to the OBCE and the legislature and get away with it ...our board should be going after these people with a vengence, in my opinion.

The President of the PT board bragged to a freind of mine that " Oregon was one of the few states that allowed PT's to do CHIROPRACTIC manipulation. This was brought up within the legislature showing that the President LIED about the PT's doing manioulation even though they had written our board inicating that this was not their intent... unfortunately the legislative body did not dole out the punishment that the PT's so richly deserved for being untruthful. Again, I believe the board should be stopping this nonsense

Dr Snell... while you may not want to see that we aren't having a " turf" war.... the plain truth is that the PT's are not trained anywhere close to what is needed to do a safe assessment and adjustment of anyone..

While working with the Lumberjacks I had a PT trainer bring a player over exclaiming that the player had a " patellar tendonitis" and would I do some ultrasound on the tendon. In fact the player actually had a small medial meniscus tear and internal derangement of the capsule.

THEY ARE NOT ADEQUATELY TRAINED TO DO MANIPULATION........... nor DIAGNOSE.

Vern is attempting to get a law passed that addresses this.

It is not that we are attempting to keep them out of realm of manipulation it is the fact that the PT's are arrogant enough to believe that only minimal training provides a license to do as they want.

regards

Danno

Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > Sent from my iPhone>

[Guest guest]

Here is what I found when I moved up to Oregon looking for work and not ready to open my own practice. First, I wrote all the Chiropractors in the areas I thought I might like to practice in. Most got back to me and said they did not have space or what ever reason it was had no need for another doc in their office. I wrote to 60 PT offices in the Southern Valley, from Ashland up to Grant Pass. NOT ONE WROTE ME BACK. In my letter I gave my 25 years of qualifications and how a qualified adjuster would help their office. That i have worked with PT's in the past, but from my own office. I felt we could have a symbiotic relationship and that I felt it was worth investigating. AS I SAID NOT ONE OFFICE RESPONDED EVEN OUT OF RESPECT. Oh

there was one that mistook my letter as another PT looking for work. He called and as soon as i told him I was a Chiropractor he said, as quoted, OH, A CHIROPRACTOR, WE DON'T HIRE CHIROPRACTORS WE HAVE OUR OWN THAT TO ADJUSTING. Their were ads everywhere looking for a PT to join their office.. From what I can see PT's are in high demand. I found NO ads looking for a chiropractor. I began calling these PT office's just to see why they did not reply, considering I used the owners name in all my letter to get a direct shot. Most of the time the owners would not come to the phone and told their secretary they just were not interested.. Others that actually answered the phone either by accident or deliberate again said, WE ARE NOT INTERESTED WE ONLY HIRE OTHER PHYSICAL THERAPIST and when I tried to point out that a chiropractor has many

more hours in adjusting with many hours in PT, they would come back with, WE ARE STILL NOT INTERESTED WE HAVE OUR OWN THAT DO ADJUSTMENTS IF NEEDED. There you have it, I see that PT's have no use for Chiropractic nor do they look upon us as anything more then a glorified massage therapist that are only out there to interfere with their business, they surely do not see us as another human being that is qualified. I got a real sense of what is out there by this. For all of you who believe we are not giving them a fair share to manipulation, trust me they don't care and they are taking it whether you like it or not. Go into their advertising, in many of their websites for Physical Therapy and you will see where they will tell you in their curriculum that they have highly qualified adjusting for reducing nerve impingement's. Not all of them, but many. The

Oregon people are being advertised to that these PT clinic adjust for spinal fination and nerve impingement. What I read looked more like a chiropractric ad, then a PT ad. It's like these cancer clinic ads on TV tellng the public how they do supplimentation, Natural products and meditation. They will take over what we do with a 6-week course of basic manipulation and call it adjusting. I looked at many many PT sites thinking this particular office that advertises adjusting will surely be interested in hiring a chiropractor that is highly trained and experience with over 25 years of adjusting and PT, "they are not"... MANY MANIPULATE, AND THEY ADVERTISE WITH NO BONES ABOUT THEIR EXPERTISE WITH IT. That is my two cents.

Walt

Eagle Point

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

In all occupations there are those that attempt to better understand and to increase their knowledge base... the cream of the crop so to speak. The issue here is that the PT's are aggressively going into areas that they have no training or minimal training in... that is not a turf war it is a public safety issue. Funny how in every state that has passed a law requiring a thourogh educational process in adjusting .......the PT's don't adjust, hmmmmm. Feel free to chime in here Vern.

You and I could probably spend 6-12 months under the tutelage of a good Orth surgeon and probaly be able to handle most surgeries that would come through the door, does that mean we should be able to do those surgeries in view of public safety?

You may choose to view this as a turf war I do not. If indeed you want the patient's to benefit then have the PT's expand their educational process and prove that they are serious about public safety.

Regards

Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > Sent from my iPhone>

[Guest guest]

I most heartily agree with Danno here.  I went to Life University for Chiropractic training and we spent years and many hours learning how to  adjust and read X-rays accurately.  Only then were we able to begin adjusting under supervision in the school clinic.  As I understand it PT's have no where near this kind of training in adjusting.  I grant that there are many sharp PTs out there with superb knowledge of NM system but this is not all that is required to adjust safely and with quality.

  I feel that if PTs want to adjust they should have the same training that we have -which is not excessive but just about right.  It is clearly a public safety issue-not a turf war for the sake of egos or monetary gain.  I would agree with Dr.Irving that  dry needling for a DC is not equivalent to adjusting for PTs as to being a simple-safe extension of respective scopes of practice. A HVLA is a hell of a lot more dangerous   in the hands of unskilled practitioner than dry needling a trigger point for doctor with extensive anatomical training.

 Let the PTs get some education if they wish to adjust. Schneider DCPDXOn Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 9:21 AM, D Beebe, D.C. <daniel.beebe@...> wrote:

 

In all occupations there are those that attempt to better understand and to increase their knowledge base... the cream of the crop so to speak. The issue here is that the PT's are aggressively going into areas that they have no training or minimal training in... that is not a turf war it is a public safety issue. Funny how in every state that has passed a law requiring a thourogh educational process in adjusting .......the PT's don't adjust,  hmmmmm. Feel free to chime in here Vern.

 

You and I could probably spend 6-12 months under the tutelage of a good Orth surgeon and probaly be able to handle most surgeries that would come through the door, does that mean we should be able to do those surgeries in view of public safety?

 

You may choose to view this as a turf war I do not. If indeed you want the patient's to benefit then have the PT's expand their educational process and prove that they are serious about public safety.

 

Regards

Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > Sent from my iPhone>

-- Schneider DC PDX

[Guest guest]

Dr. Snell, I am more in your camp on this issue. I personally do not prescribe, administer and oversee personal training, but in the patient that needs such care I refer. But this is my choice, and if I wanted to offer my patients more active rehab I feel this should be my professional right, and it would be my responsibility to do it right. That is where personal interest and continuing education come in to play. I simply choose not to offer this part of my scope (my undergraduate work was in Athletic Training as well). I personally love having a large tool box, but it is my responsibility to keep my tools sharp and not use the ones I don't really understand or have proficiency in. But give me the right to be further trained if I do want to use a new tool (i.e. laser, dry needling, MUA, nutritional counsel...) ly, my biggest issue is getting paid for these other valuable tools (laser, MUA, nutritional counsel...) How will someone bill for dry needling. Tools are great, but if it takes more time to use, and we don't get paid for using it, no matter how great it will probably stay in the toolbox and get rusty. This is where the "any willing provider" legislation to force insurers to pay us to the extent of our scope is so important (Vern!) Bottom line, we could have the biggest and best toolbox in the world, but if we don't get paid we can't afford to keep it up. BTW, I like to adjust and think I'm pretty good! Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak St Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724 From: drpsnell@...Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 09:04:51 -0800Subject: RE: Re: Dry needling

Re: "Dr Snell... while you may not want to see that we aren't having a " turf" war.... the plain truth is that the PT's are not trained anywhere close to what is needed to do a safe assessment and adjustment of anyone.."I certainly see that we are having a professional turf war Dan. Sorry if the questioning of our individual philosophies raises some uncomfortable points. I think we can both agree that there is chaff in the DC and PT professions. Certainly when the marketplace pencils DCs into a "manipulation technician" model, many DCs will follow the path of least resistance and merely "pound down the high spots" with little regard to risk to the patient or accurate diagnosis. I am sure that you see missed diagnoses from your DC colleagues as well as from PTs, just like I do. I'm questioning the benefit of the turf war to the ones that matter most in this...the patients. At a different point in history, the turf war was more important. Now, as Rod pointed out, having the toolbox to be able to best manage the most common NMS complaints in public health is what's most important. Beyond the accurate diagnosis that some of us render, and an excellent adjustment, what do many of us have to offer to the public? Are we all well versed in diet and lifestyle interventions to help? Can we all synthesize a tailor made, rational, acute, subacute and longterm rehab exercise program that addresses the muscle imbalances that lead to the joint dysfunction and pain that we treat? I'd just love to see my profession move out of the turf war, non-patient centered arguments and just seek to be the acknowledged best choice the public has to manage these complaints from start to finish. I currently have 57 hours of CE under my belt for this year, with about 30 more hours on tap before my CE year ends in May. At least 50% of that CE has been done alongside PTs, ATCs and personal trainers. I will tell you that my personal experience has been that most of them don't fall into the category of sloppy work that many of us describe on this forum in talking about those professions. Indeed, most of them seem to have better understanding of the NMS pathology than many of the DCs that show up at these events.I'd encourage folks to go and hang out with "the other" and learn a bit more about what they know instead of relying on what anecdotes you hear here and in school. At this point, personal trainers are getting a much better level of training in exercise management for NMS complaints than that we received at WSCC around 10-12 years ago. When a DC's knowledge base doesn't equal that of the trainer at the local gym, the market will decide who the public goes to for help with their complaints. To my mind, at this point in history, the public is best served by all of our professions having access to the therapies that will help them, provided the public safety is not in danger. Beyond that, it becomes a merit economy. Whoever has the best toolbox, the best delivery system and the most cost effective option will come out on top. I like our odds in that game, but only if we keep sharp (no pun intended on the dry needling). W. Snell,

D.C. Director, Solutions Sports & Spine, Inc at Hawthorne Wellness Center

3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956

www.fixyourownback.comMember,

American College of Sports MedicineMember, International Society of Clinical Rehabilitation Specialists ; drpsnell@...From: daniel.beebe@...Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 07:46:17 -0800Subject: Re: Re: Dry needling

They have no training in DDX or radiology and no more than cursory " weekend" manipulation classes. These people managed to lie to the OBCE and the legislature and get away with it ...our board should be going after these people with a vengence, in my opinion.

The President of the PT board bragged to a freind of mine that " Oregon was one of the few states that allowed PT's to do CHIROPRACTIC manipulation. This was brought up within the legislature showing that the President LIED about the PT's doing manioulation even though they had written our board inicating that this was not their intent... unfortunately the legislative body did not dole out the punishment that the PT's so richly deserved for being untruthful. Again, I believe the board should be stopping this nonsense

Dr Snell... while you may not want to see that we aren't having a " turf" war.... the plain truth is that the PT's are not trained anywhere close to what is needed to do a safe assessment and adjustment of anyone..

While working with the Lumberjacks I had a PT trainer bring a player over exclaiming that the player had a " patellar tendonitis" and would I do some ultrasound on the tendon. In fact the player actually had a small medial meniscus tear and internal derangement of the capsule.

THEY ARE NOT ADEQUATELY TRAINED TO DO MANIPULATION........... nor DIAGNOSE.

Vern is attempting to get a law passed that addresses this.

It is not that we are attempting to keep them out of realm of manipulation it is the fact that the PT's are arrogant enough to believe that only minimal training provides a license to do as they want.

regards

Danno

Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > Sent from my iPhone>

[Guest guest]

Docs:

I heard an Associate Professor at the Harvard School of Public

Health (who is also a surgeon at Brigham & Women's Hospital in

Boston) talking on NPR the other night about the emergence of

Healthcare Coordinators or Coaches, as he described them, who sit on

the medical panels of larger clinics, self-insured companies, etc.,

reviewing the care of their clients on a case-by-case basis and then

authorize treatment based on best-practice outcomes for their

particular condition. He cited some pilot studies that showed

significant cost savings and predicted that our healthcare system

will move in that direction, pretty well dictating the kind of care

insureds will be granted access to, thus avoiding the costs

associated with "unproven" therapies. I guess you could call it

Managed Managed Care. Of course, a person can still pay cash and go

wherever they want.

Lyndon McGill, D.C.

Salem, Oregon

www.SalemSpineClinic.com

Evolving Doctors

On 1/22/2011 10:05 AM, ph Medlin wrote:

Oversimplifying? I don't believe

this to be complicated at all. Why on earth do we have

to be EVERYTHING to every Patient? Why do we have to

provide EVERY service? Aren't there professions that

are better suited to perform these techniques? Yes, I do

feel that Rolfers would be better suited and

Acupuncturists as well to perform techniques in which

their professions are defined by. Seems you would

rather perform these techniques and keep them under YOUR

paradigm. There's no difference in that and PT's

wanting to perform spinal adjustments under their

paradigm.

Simply passing this all off as

reductionist thinking, and that in order to fully help

our patients we must be able to have every tool in the

box is self serving. Evidently referring a patient and

co management of a patient isn't an option anymore. The

patient loses with sub standard care.

The reason we are the best

spinal adjusters is because we do this on a daily basis.

If someone needs a specific service, they should access

that service from a professional who is trained and does

the service every day, not to someone who dusts it off

and takes it out of their "tool box" once a week or

less.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: dr_tim_irving_dc

Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:44 AM

Subject: Re: Dry Needling

"Jack of all trades, perhaps eventually master of none.

We all do everything it seems here in Oregon. Provider

identity is becoming hazy. One would think that Spinal

Manipulation would be the identity of Chiropractors,

Needling the identity of Accupuncture, Fascial

Manipulation that of Rolfing, Natural Medicine that of

ND's, Hemmorrhoids that of some unfortunate MD........ I

guess for a state who hates "scope of practice" bills,

this is what you get."

This may be oversimplifying things a bit. Would you

trust the generic acupuncturist with treating

neuromyofascial issues related to your spinal

manipulations? would you trust that they are supporting

your work and not going off on "tangents", based on

their paradigm?

How about a Rolfer? Would the patient need to go through

a whole 10 session Rolfing series? if not, how many

would they need?

This "jack of all trades...." argument has been brought

up so many times; it can get pretty silly. Here's an

idea; how about we strive to be experts on the

neuromusculoskeletal system and go even farther to learn

as much as we can about how the rest of the body

interrelated to that system...

Doing anything else seems a bit reductionist in nature

and (in my biased opinion), intellectually lazy. We are

doctors, let's be the best natural, hands on doctors we

can be!

Sure, we are always gong to be drawn in different

directions, but that's the beauty of our profession; we

can all work in different ways that complement each

other. If we get that idea, maybe we will see more

intrachiropractic referrals and be able to treat our

patients ethically and holistically without seeming

fragmented as a profession.

-Tim Irving DC, MS, LMT

[Guest guest]

Exactly my point.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: Sharron Fuchs

Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:06 PM

Cc:

Subject: Re: Re: Dry needling

Wrong DCs do rhoids.Sharron

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 20, 2011, at 5:16 PM, "ph Medlin" <spinetree@...> wrote:

Jack of all trades, perhaps eventually master of none. We all do everything it seems here in Oregon. Provider identity is becoming hazy. One would think that Spinal Manipulation would be the identity of Chiropractors, Needling the identity of Accupuncture, Fascial Manipulation that of Rolfing, Natural Medicine that of ND's, Hemmorrhoids that of some unfortunate MD........ I guess for a state who hates "scope of practice" bills, this is what you get.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: sharron

Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:35 PM

Subject: Re: Dry needling

That horse is out of the barn and waayy down the road. . PTs do manipulation and we are not going to be able to change that.s. fuchs dc >> > Nice work all, this will be a great therapy for us to have to help patients. In the same vein, I'd be interested in the opinions of the listees on comparisions and contrasts to how this process relates to the desire of PTs to manipulate. Are we DCs, in our opposition to PTs manipulating the spine, as poorly informed as the LAcs and NDs who were in opposition to us dry needling? Just curious...> > W. Snell,> D.C. > > Director, Solutions > Sports & Spine, Inc > at Hawthorne Wellness Center> > 3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > > Portland, OR 97214 > > Ph. 503-235-5484 > > Fax 503-235-3956> > www.fixyourownback.com> > Member,> > American College of Sports Medicine> Member, International > Society of > Clinical Rehabilitation Specialists> > > > > From: dcdocbrian@...> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:14:49 -0800> Subject: RE: Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congratulations! > > Seitz, DC > Tuality Physicians > 730-D SE Oak St > Hillsboro, OR 97123 > (503)640-3724> > > > > From: sharronf@...> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:49:15 -0800> Subject: Dry needling> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The board has determined dry needling to be in our scope of practice ! The training , informed consent and some things I forget will be worked out in the Rules committee. Thank you all for your help and support. The UWS can take great credit for it's effort and vision as can Dr. Fishkin DC from land who along with other visionaries offers this to us. I look forward to full integration of this with other myofascial techniques.> > > > Sharron Fuchs> > > > Sent from my iPhone>

[Guest guest]

Oversimplifying? I don't believe this to be complicated at all. Why on earth do we have to be EVERYTHING to every Patient? Why do we have to provide EVERY service? Aren't there professions that are better suited to perform these techniques? Yes, I do feel that Rolfers would be better suited and Acupuncturists as well to perform techniques in which their professions are defined by. Seems you would rather perform these techniques and keep them under YOUR paradigm. There's no difference in that and PT's wanting to perform spinal adjustments under their paradigm.

Simply passing this all off as reductionist thinking, and that in order to fully help our patients we must be able to have every tool in the box is self serving. Evidently referring a patient and co management of a patient isn't an option anymore. The patient loses with sub standard care.

The reason we are the best spinal adjusters is because we do this on a daily basis. If someone needs a specific service, they should access that service from a professional who is trained and does the service every day, not to someone who dusts it off and takes it out of their "tool box" once a week or less.

ph Medlin D.C.

From: dr_tim_irving_dc

Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:44 AM

Subject: Re: Dry Needling

"Jack of all trades, perhaps eventually master of none. We all do everything it seems here in Oregon. Provider identity is becoming hazy. One would think that Spinal Manipulation would be the identity of Chiropractors, Needling the identity of Accupuncture, Fascial Manipulation that of Rolfing, Natural Medicine that of ND's, Hemmorrhoids that of some unfortunate MD........ I guess for a state who hates "scope of practice" bills, this is what you get."This may be oversimplifying things a bit. Would you trust the generic acupuncturist with treating neuromyofascial issues related to your spinal manipulations? would you trust that they are supporting your work and not going off on "tangents", based on their paradigm?How about a Rolfer? Would the patient need to go through a whole 10 session Rolfing series? if not, how many would they need? This "jack of all trades...." argument has been brought up so many times; it can get pretty silly. Here's an idea; how about we strive to be experts on the neuromusculoskeletal system and go even farther to learn as much as we can about how the rest of the body interrelated to that system...Doing anything else seems a bit reductionist in nature and (in my biased opinion), intellectually lazy. We are doctors, let's be the best natural, hands on doctors we can be! Sure, we are always gong to be drawn in different directions, but that's the beauty of our profession; we can all work in different ways that complement each other. If we get that idea, maybe we will see more intrachiropractic referrals and be able to treat our patients ethically and holistically without seeming fragmented as a profession. -Tim Irving DC, MS, LMT