FW: [Chirolist-CA] Chirolist-CA Digest, Vol 276, Issue 7 (Homeopathy)

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food for thought from the california list serve this am ....................................................................sk

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

> From: Dry@...> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:17:47 -0400> chirolist-ca@...> Subject: Re: [Chirolist-CA] Chirolist-CA Digest, Vol 276, Issue 7 (Homeopathy)> > All communication within this forum is private and is for the benefit of the members of this forum> and may NOT be forwarded without express permission from the list administrators.> ******************************************************************> There were LOTS of unlicensed healers at the Endocrinology seminar this > weekend, along with some DC and LAc..> > I got a chiropractic degree so I could heal with a license, but now.... > what's the point? (rhetorical question). Patients can order their own lab tests > now, so a license isn't even needed for that, anymore... And yet we're more > restricted and more accountable than these unlicensed people, who don't > have boards and malpractice and other costs.> > What I saw is that this functional healing train is moving, and if we're > not on it, then we'll be further marginalized.> > > Jo English DC> Menlo Park, CA> > > In a message dated 7/24/10 5:02:06 AM, chirolist-ca-request@... > writes:> > > > Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:54:44 -0700> > From: " Meltz" <chiroedh@...>> > <chirolist-ca@...>> > Subject: Re: [Chirolist-CA] Chirolist-CA Digest, Vol 276, Issue 1> > Message-ID: <000001cb2aa9$47c84d20$d758e760$@net>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"> > > > ,> > > > I saw your post on Tuesday regarding Homeopathy. Now, I hate to be the> > party poop-er here,> > and while I don't know the legal basis for using homeopathy in other > > states,> > (I presume it's more> > favorable elsewhere) in California though, it is outside of our scope of> > practice... no matter how> > capable, skilled or experienced a chiropractic doctor might be. Just> > checkout Rule 302 (a). You'll> > find most plant and mineral based remedies to be found in the Materia> > Medica, and the US Pharmacopia.> > > > I know many of the remedies are available for purchase through several> > supply catalogs distributed> > nationwide. Of course we are free to order and purchase any number of> > remedies we desire... but> > that's a lot different than dispensing and selling remedies to patients.> > Granted, the potencies of OTC> > remedies are small, and harmless, (notwithstanding the fact they could be> > misused based on a self-diagnosis or> > misdiagnosis) the greater potencies beyond 10x dilution could easily> > comeback and bite someone on> > their tuchus. This is especially true when the numbers of Naturapathic> > Doctors are increasing in California,> > and they aggressively protect their scope and privilege to practice as > > their> > market share increases, just> > as we protect ours from others who perform clandestine manual manipulation> > for a fee. > > > > If a chiropractor is going to be cited or disciplined for practicing> > homeopathy... it will likely stem from a professional complaint more than> > anything else... rather than a consumer's complaint.> > > > What is most frustrating, someone who calls them self a "natural health> > practitioner" or an> > "intuitive healer" a health coach, an "integrative practitioner" a > > personal> > trainer, or a massage therapist, are not only unlicensed, they're > > basically> > unregulated and can do whatever they damn well please... including the> > recommendation of 5C, or CM homeopathic remedies.... powerful stuff when> > used for the right conditions. Aconite, Arnica, Belladonna Rus Tox., are> > some of the more common ones, and found in a lot of topical creams, and> > combined infant preparation formulas for teething and colic.> > > > As you well know, chiropractic doctors answer to the BCE with a defined> > scope of practice. These other folks,> > regardless of how well-intentioned they are, function without constraint > > of> > any kind, (and except for> > specific municipal regulations) have no scope whatsoever, guidelines, or> > legislative statutes... answering> > ultimately to the DA in their local jurisdiction should someone file a> > complaint.> > > > Interesting, we get busted for practicing outside the scope of our> > license.... or for a procedure that> > a misinformed individual simply perceives as inappropriate... while others> > without any restrictions at all> > get what? A slap on the wrist and a misdemeanor... for practicing> > homeopathy without license...> > What's that... maybe $150? Hardly seems fair or reasonable. Nothing> > surprises me these days.> > > > But to answer your question, the homeopathic remedies I've been prescribed> > by licensed individuals have been useful and efficient... albeit slower > > and> > more difficult to follow dosing compliance than Rx pharmaceuticals> > are.> > > > > > Rule 302 (a)> > > > The term "materia medica" as used in this code or in any> > initiative act referred to in this code, means those substances> > listed in the official United States Pharmacopoeia, the official> > Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia of the United States, the official United> > States Dispensatory, New and Nonofficial Remedies, or the National> > Formulary, or any supplement thereof, except substances covered by> > subdivision (a) of Section 4052 and Section 4057 of this code.> > > > http://law.onecle.com/california/business/13.html> > > > > > Section 4052> > > > (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a pharmacist> > may:> > (1) Furnish a reasonable quantity of compounded drug product to a> > prescriber for office use by the prescriber.> > (2) Transmit a valid prescription to another pharmacist.> > (3) Administer, orally or topically, drugs and biologicals> > pursuant to a prescriber's order.> > (4) Perform procedures or functions in a licensed health care> > facility as authorized by Section 4052.1.> > (5) Perform procedures or functions as part of the care provided> > by a health care facility, a licensed home health agency, a licensed> > clinic in which there is a physician oversight, a provider who> > contracts with a licensed health care service plan with regard to the> > care or services provided to the enrollees of that health care> > service plan, or a physician, as authorized by Section 4052.2.> > (6) Manufacture, measure, fit to the patient, or sell and repair> > dangerous devices or furnish instructions to the patient or the> > patient's representative concerning the use of those devices.> > (7) Provide consultation to patients and professional information,> > including clinical or pharmacological information, advice, or> > consultation to other health care professionals.> > (8) Furnish emergency contraception drug therapy as authorized by> > Section 4052.3.> > (9) Administer immunizations pursuant to a protocol with a> > prescriber.> > ( A pharmacist who is authorized to issue an order to initiate> > or adjust a controlled substance therapy pursuant to this section> > shall personally register with the federal Drug Enforcement> > Administration.> > © Nothing in this section shall affect the requirements of> > existing law relating to maintaining the confidentiality of medical> > records.> > (d) Nothing in this section shall affect the requirements of> > existing law relating to the licensing of a health care facility.> > > > Section 4052.1> > > > (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a> > pharmacist may perform the following procedures or functions in a> > licensed health care facility in accordance with policies,> > procedures, or protocols developed by health professionals, including> > physicians, pharmacists, and registered nurses, with the concurrence> > of the facility administrator:> > (1) Ordering or performing routine drug therapy-related patient> > assessment procedures including temperature, pulse, and respiration.> > > > (2) Ordering drug therapy-related laboratory tests.> > (3) Administering drugs and biologicals by injection pursuant to a> > prescriber's order.> > (4) Initiating or adjusting the drug regimen of a patient pursuant> > to an order or authorization made by the patient's prescriber and in> > accordance with the policies, procedures, or protocols of the> > licensed health care facility.> > ( Prior to performing any procedure authorized by this section,> > a pharmacist shall have received appropriate training as prescribed> > in the policies and procedures of the licensed health care facility.> > > > > > > > http://www.suspect.com/laws/California-Codes/Business-and-Professions-Code/> > s> > ec-4052.html> > > > 4057. Exceptions to Application of this Chapter> > > > (a) Except as provided in Sections 4006, 4240, and 4342, this chapter does> > not apply to the retail sale of nonprescription drugs that are not subject> > to Section 4022 and that are packaged or bottled in the manufacturer's or> > distributor's container and labeled in accordance with applicable federal> > and state drug labeling requirements.> > > > ( This chapter does not apply to specific dangerous drugs and dangerous> > devices listed in board regulations, where the sale or furnishing is made > > to> > any of the following:> > > > (1) A physician, dentist, podiatrist, pharmacist, medical technician,> > medical technologist, optometrist, or chiropractor holding a currently > > valid> > and unrevoked license and acting within the scope of his or her > > profession.> > > > (2) A clinic, hospital, institution, or establishment holding a currently> > valid and unrevoked license or permit under Division 2 (commencing with> > Section 1200) of the Health and Safety Code, or Chapter 2 (commencing with> > Section 3300) of Division 3 of, or Part 2 (commencing with Section 6250) > > of> > Division 6 of, the Welfare and Institutions Code.> > > > © This chapter shall not apply to a home health agency licensed under> > Chapter 8 (commencing with Section 1725) of, or a hospice licensed under> > Chapter 8.5 (commencing with Section 1745) of, Division 2 of, the Health > > and> > Safety Code, when it purchases, stores, furnishes, or transports> > > > specific dangerous drugs and dangerous devices listed in board regulations> > in compliance with applicable law and regulations including:> > > > (1) Dangerous devices described in subdivision ( of Section 4022, as > > long> > as these dangerous devices are furnished only upon the prescription or > > order> > of a physician, dentist, or podiatrist.> > > > (2) Hypodermic needles and syringes.> > > > (3) Irrigation solutions of 50 cubic centimeters or greater.> > > > (d) This chapter does not apply to the storage of devices in secure > > central> > or ward supply areas of a clinic, hospital, institution, or establishment> > holding a currently valid and unrevoked license or permit pursuant to> > Division 2 (commencing with Section 1200) of the Health and Safety Code, > > or> > pursuant to Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 3300) of Division 3 of, or> > Part 2 (commencing with Section 6250) of Division 6 of, the Welfare and> > Institutions Code.> > > > (e) This chapter does not apply to the retail sale of vitamins, mineral> > products, or combinations thereof or to foods, supplements, or nutrients> > used to fortify the diet of humans or other animals or poultry and labeled> > as such that are not subject to Section 4022 and that are packaged or> > bottled in the manufacturer's or distributor's container and labeled in> > accordance with applicable federal and state labeling requirements.> > > > (f) This chapter does not apply to the furnishing of dangerous drugs and> > dangerous devices to recognized schools of nursing. These dangerous drugs> > and dangerous devices shall not include controlled substances. The > > dangerous> > drugs and dangerous devices shall be used for training purposes only, and> > not for the cure, mitigation, or treatment of disease in humans. > > Recognized> > schools of nursing for purposes of this subdivision are those schools> > recognized as training facilities by the California Board of Registered> > Nursing.> > > > http://www.pharmacy.ca.gov/laws_regs/lawbook.pdf> > > > > > > > > > --> > Make it a good day...> > > > Meltz, DC, DABCO> > Chiropractic Orthopedic Group> > 981 Governor Drive, Ste. 102> > El Dorado Hills, CA 95762> > > > > > Tel. (916) 933-2707> > Fax (916) 933-2708> > > > www.MyEDHChiropractor.blogspot.com> > > ********************************************************************************> "Building Chiropractic Community through enhanced communication."> > To change your preferences or unsubscribe:> http://ww3.chirolists.com/mailman/listinfo/chirolist-ca> email: Chirolist-CA-request@...?subject=unsubscribe> List options tutorial:> http://www.chirolists.com/index.cfm?nid=6> Email filters tutorial:> http://www.chirolists.com/index.cfm?nid=7> *********************************************************************************

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a follow up on the previous thought.................................maybe I'm not doing things right?!

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

> From: mheller007@...> Dry@...> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:31:17 +0000> CC: chirolist-ca@...> Subject: Re: [Chirolist-CA] Chirolist-CA Digest, Vol 276, Issue 7 (Homeopathy)> > All communication within this forum is private and is for the benefit of the members of this forum> and may NOT be forwarded without express permission from the list administrators.> ******************************************************************> I know how you feel. I had a substitute come in to do massage therapy > when I had a CMT> out for a short time. She let me know she did "cranial sacral" - > something I had studied for> over 20 years.> > There was a chiro in Marin who did SOT and he was going to take > "chiropractor" off his> clinic so he could make more money then he was.> > MH> On Jul 26, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Dry@... wrote:> > > All communication within this forum is private and is for the > > benefit of the members of this forum> > and may NOT be forwarded without express permission from the list > > administrators.> > ******************************************************************> > There were LOTS of unlicensed healers at the Endocrinology seminar > > this> > weekend, along with some DC and LAc..> >> > I got a chiropractic degree so I could heal with a license, but > > now....> > what's the point? (rhetorical question). Patients can order their > > own lab tests> > now, so a license isn't even needed for that, anymore... And yet > > we're more> > restricted and more accountable than these unlicensed people, who > > don't> > have boards and malpractice and other costs.> >> > What I saw is that this functional healing train is moving, and if > > we're> > not on it, then we'll be further marginalized.> >> >> > Jo English DC> > Menlo Park, CA> >> >> > In a message dated 7/24/10 5:02:06 AM, chirolist-ca-request@...> > writes:> >> >> >> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:54:44 -0700> >> From: " Meltz" <chiroedh@...>> >> <chirolist-ca@...>> >> Subject: Re: [Chirolist-CA] Chirolist-CA Digest, Vol 276, Issue 1> >> Message-ID: <000001cb2aa9$47c84d20$d758e760$@net>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"> >>> >> ,> >>> >> I saw your post on Tuesday regarding Homeopathy. Now, I hate to be > >> the> >> party poop-er here,> >> and while I don't know the legal basis for using homeopathy in other> >> states,> >> (I presume it's more> >> favorable elsewhere) in California though, it is outside of our > >> scope of> >> practice... no matter how> >> capable, skilled or experienced a chiropractic doctor might be. Just> >> checkout Rule 302 (a). You'll> >> find most plant and mineral based remedies to be found in the Materia> >> Medica, and the US Pharmacopia.> >>> >> I know many of the remedies are available for purchase through > >> several> >> supply catalogs distributed> >> nationwide. Of course we are free to order and purchase any number > >> of> >> remedies we desire... but> >> that's a lot different than dispensing and selling remedies to > >> patients.> >> Granted, the potencies of OTC> >> remedies are small, and harmless, (notwithstanding the fact they > >> could be> >> misused based on a self-diagnosis or> >> misdiagnosis) the greater potencies beyond 10x dilution could easily> >> comeback and bite someone on> >> their tuchus. This is especially true when the numbers of > >> Naturapathic> >> Doctors are increasing in California,> >> and they aggressively protect their scope and privilege to practice > >> as> >> their> >> market share increases, just> >> as we protect ours from others who perform clandestine manual > >> manipulation> >> for a fee.> >>> >> If a chiropractor is going to be cited or disciplined for practicing> >> homeopathy... it will likely stem from a professional complaint > >> more than> >> anything else... rather than a consumer's complaint.> >>> >> What is most frustrating, someone who calls them self a "natural > >> health> >> practitioner" or an> >> "intuitive healer" a health coach, an "integrative practitioner" a> >> personal> >> trainer, or a massage therapist, are not only unlicensed, they're> >> basically> >> unregulated and can do whatever they damn well please... including > >> the> >> recommendation of 5C, or CM homeopathic remedies.... powerful > >> stuff when> >> used for the right conditions. Aconite, Arnica, Belladonna Rus > >> Tox., are> >> some of the more common ones, and found in a lot of topical creams, > >> and> >> combined infant preparation formulas for teething and colic.> >>> >> As you well know, chiropractic doctors answer to the BCE with a > >> defined> >> scope of practice. These other folks,> >> regardless of how well-intentioned they are, function without > >> constraint> >> of> >> any kind, (and except for> >> specific municipal regulations) have no scope whatsoever, > >> guidelines, or> >> legislative statutes... answering> >> ultimately to the DA in their local jurisdiction should someone > >> file a> >> complaint.> >>> >> Interesting, we get busted for practicing outside the scope of our> >> license.... or for a procedure that> >> a misinformed individual simply perceives as inappropriate... while > >> others> >> without any restrictions at all> >> get what? A slap on the wrist and a misdemeanor... for practicing> >> homeopathy without license...> >> What's that... maybe $150? Hardly seems fair or reasonable. Nothing> >> surprises me these days.> >>> >> But to answer your question, the homeopathic remedies I've been > >> prescribed> >> by licensed individuals have been useful and efficient... albeit > >> slower> >> and> >> more difficult to follow dosing compliance than Rx pharmaceuticals> >> are.> >>> >>> >> Rule 302 (a)> >>> >> The term "materia medica" as used in this code or in any> >> initiative act referred to in this code, means those substances> >> listed in the official United States Pharmacopoeia, the official> >> Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia of the United States, the official United> >> States Dispensatory, New and Nonofficial Remedies, or the National> >> Formulary, or any supplement thereof, except substances covered by> >> subdivision (a) of Section 4052 and Section 4057 of this code.> >>> >> http://law.onecle.com/california/business/13.html> >>> >>> >> Section 4052> >>> >> (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a pharmacist> >> may:> >> (1) Furnish a reasonable quantity of compounded drug product to a> >> prescriber for office use by the prescriber.> >> (2) Transmit a valid prescription to another pharmacist.> >> (3) Administer, orally or topically, drugs and biologicals> >> pursuant to a prescriber's order.> >> (4) Perform procedures or functions in a licensed health care> >> facility as authorized by Section 4052.1.> >> (5) Perform procedures or functions as part of the care provided> >> by a health care facility, a licensed home health agency, a licensed> >> clinic in which there is a physician oversight, a provider who> >> contracts with a licensed health care service plan with regard to the> >> care or services provided to the enrollees of that health care> >> service plan, or a physician, as authorized by Section 4052.2.> >> (6) Manufacture, measure, fit to the patient, or sell and repair> >> dangerous devices or furnish instructions to the patient or the> >> patient's representative concerning the use of those devices.> >> (7) Provide consultation to patients and professional information,> >> including clinical or pharmacological information, advice, or> >> consultation to other health care professionals.> >> (8) Furnish emergency contraception drug therapy as authorized by> >> Section 4052.3.> >> (9) Administer immunizations pursuant to a protocol with a> >> prescriber.> >> ( A pharmacist who is authorized to issue an order to initiate> >> or adjust a controlled substance therapy pursuant to this section> >> shall personally register with the federal Drug Enforcement> >> Administration.> >> © Nothing in this section shall affect the requirements of> >> existing law relating to maintaining the confidentiality of medical> >> records.> >> (d) Nothing in this section shall affect the requirements of> >> existing law relating to the licensing of a health care facility.> >>> >> Section 4052.1> >>> >> (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a> >> pharmacist may perform the following procedures or functions in a> >> licensed health care facility in accordance with policies,> >> procedures, or protocols developed by health professionals, including> >> physicians, pharmacists, and registered nurses, with the concurrence> >> of the facility administrator:> >> (1) Ordering or performing routine drug therapy-related patient> >> assessment procedures including temperature, pulse, and respiration.> >>> >> (2) Ordering drug therapy-related laboratory tests.> >> (3) Administering drugs and biologicals by injection pursuant to a> >> prescriber's order.> >> (4) Initiating or adjusting the drug regimen of a patient pursuant> >> to an order or authorization made by the patient's prescriber and in> >> accordance with the policies, procedures, or protocols of the> >> licensed health care facility.> >> ( Prior to performing any procedure authorized by this section,> >> a pharmacist shall have received appropriate training as prescribed> >> in the policies and procedures of the licensed health care facility.> >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.suspect.com/laws/California-Codes/Business-and-Professions-Code/> >> s> >> ec-4052.html> >>> >> 4057. Exceptions to Application of this Chapter> >>> >> (a) Except as provided in Sections 4006, 4240, and 4342, this > >> chapter does> >> not apply to the retail sale of nonprescription drugs that are not > >> subject> >> to Section 4022 and that are packaged or bottled in the > >> manufacturer's or> >> distributor's container and labeled in accordance with applicable > >> federal> >> and state drug labeling requirements.> >>> >> ( This chapter does not apply to specific dangerous drugs and > >> dangerous> >> devices listed in board regulations, where the sale or furnishing > >> is made> >> to> >> any of the following:> >>> >> (1) A physician, dentist, podiatrist, pharmacist, medical technician,> >> medical technologist, optometrist, or chiropractor holding a > >> currently> >> valid> >> and unrevoked license and acting within the scope of his or her> >> profession.> >>> >> (2) A clinic, hospital, institution, or establishment holding a > >> currently> >> valid and unrevoked license or permit under Division 2 (commencing > >> with> >> Section 1200) of the Health and Safety Code, or Chapter 2 > >> (commencing with> >> Section 3300) of Division 3 of, or Part 2 (commencing with Section > >> 6250)> >> of> >> Division 6 of, the Welfare and Institutions Code.> >>> >> © This chapter shall not apply to a home health agency licensed > >> under> >> Chapter 8 (commencing with Section 1725) of, or a hospice licensed > >> under> >> Chapter 8.5 (commencing with Section 1745) of, Division 2 of, the > >> Health> >> and> >> Safety Code, when it purchases, stores, furnishes, or transports> >>> >> specific dangerous drugs and dangerous devices listed in board > >> regulations> >> in compliance with applicable law and regulations including:> >>> >> (1) Dangerous devices described in subdivision ( of Section 4022, > >> as> >> long> >> as these dangerous devices are furnished only upon the prescription > >> or> >> order> >> of a physician, dentist, or podiatrist.> >>> >> (2) Hypodermic needles and syringes.> >>> >> (3) Irrigation solutions of 50 cubic centimeters or greater.> >>> >> (d) This chapter does not apply to the storage of devices in secure> >> central> >> or ward supply areas of a clinic, hospital, institution, or > >> establishment> >> holding a currently valid and unrevoked license or permit pursuant to> >> Division 2 (commencing with Section 1200) of the Health and Safety > >> Code,> >> or> >> pursuant to Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 3300) of Division 3 > >> of, or> >> Part 2 (commencing with Section 6250) of Division 6 of, the Welfare > >> and> >> Institutions Code.> >>> >> (e) This chapter does not apply to the retail sale of vitamins, > >> mineral> >> products, or combinations thereof or to foods, supplements, or > >> nutrients> >> used to fortify the diet of humans or other animals or poultry and > >> labeled> >> as such that are not subject to Section 4022 and that are packaged or> >> bottled in the manufacturer's or distributor's container and > >> labeled in> >> accordance with applicable federal and state labeling requirements.> >>> >> (f) This chapter does not apply to the furnishing of dangerous > >> drugs and> >> dangerous devices to recognized schools of nursing. These dangerous > >> drugs> >> and dangerous devices shall not include controlled substances. The> >> dangerous> >> drugs and dangerous devices shall be used for training purposes > >> only, and> >> not for the cure, mitigation, or treatment of disease in humans.> >> Recognized> >> schools of nursing for purposes of this subdivision are those schools> >> recognized as training facilities by the California Board of > >> Registered> >> Nursing.> >>> >> http://www.pharmacy.ca.gov/laws_regs/lawbook.pdf> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> --> >> Make it a good day...> >>> >> Meltz, DC, DABCO> >> Chiropractic Orthopedic Group> >> 981 Governor Drive, Ste. 102> >> El Dorado Hills, CA 95762> >>> >>> >> Tel. (916) 933-2707> >> Fax (916) 933-2708> >>> >> www.MyEDHChiropractor.blogspot.com> >>> > ********************************************************************************> > "Building Chiropractic Community through enhanced communication."> >> > To change your preferences or unsubscribe:> > http://ww3.chirolists.com/mailman/listinfo/chirolist-ca> > email: Chirolist-CA-request@...?subject=unsubscribe> > List options tutorial:> > http://www.chirolists.com/index.cfm?nid=6> > Email filters tutorial:> > http://www.chirolists.com/index.cfm?nid=7> > *********************************************************************************> > ********************************************************************************> "Building Chiropractic Community through enhanced communication."> > To change your preferences or unsubscribe:> http://ww3.chirolists.com/mailman/listinfo/chirolist-ca> email: Chirolist-CA-request@...?subject=unsubscribe> List options tutorial:> http://www.chirolists.com/index.cfm?nid=6> Email filters tutorial:> http://www.chirolists.com/index.cfm?nid=7> *********************************************************************************