Re: Experimenting with fats and oils for unguent bases

[Guest guest]

> <snip> <On the subject of heating fats and oils and adding herbs, and

> wine or water and cooking for long periods to make unguent bases>

iel writes:

> What exactly is happening to the fat/oil chemically if heated for

> such periods? (I'm also thinking about rancidity.) Also, is there a

> form of emulsion happening?

<snip>

> Tonight I tried boiling down some virgin olive oil. I used 4oz oil

> with 10oz distilled water. Second try took several hours, but I ended

> up with 3oz by the time I removed it from the pan. There is a slight

> creamy precipitation/seperation at the bottom of the pan and mostly

> clear viscous oil on top. The interesting part is that the oil has

> lost almost all its smell, but the creamy seperation smells strongly

> of olive oil. <snip> Comments?

> iel

Hi iel,

Welcome to the wonderful world of rendering! As you can see, you're

removing all of the impurities that are the cause of rancidity in fats

and oils. Here's a passage from " Oils and Perfumes of Ancient Egypt " ,

by Joann Fletcher <ISBN 0-8109-3697-6 Copyright 1998 The Trustees of

the British Museum> (text that follows in parenthesis by me to add more

clarity to the author's original text):

--------------------------------------------------------------------

To Sweeten Lard

In a modern version of this process (which was used by the ancient

Egyptian perfumers), herbalist Hedley uses solid vegetable

lard instead of animal fat. The 'fatty' odour is removed using wine.

Vegetable lard has already been clarified, but usually comes (from)

grains (that have been) covered with rice flour to keep them from

sticking together. To remove this rice flour, put the lard in a pan

with several times its own volume of water and heat until (the lard)

melts. Allow it to cool. The lard will set (up) on the top and the

rice flour will have fallen to the bottom and (formed) a paste with the

water. Remove the lard. To clear it of its fatty smell, put (the

lard) into a pan with about twice its own volume of sweet wine. Heat

gently. The wine will evaporate through the lard, which will become

impregnated with the (wine's)sweet smell. If you smell burning, the

wine has completely evaporated, so remove the pan from heat instantly.

It is best not to allow this to happen!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems that you do not need to boil the oils you're rendering. So

you can likely avoid the spattering that you were having to endure. Of

course, it may take longer than it does when you boil it... : ) I

think I'll add this to the Files section -- it may help others too.

I hope this helps! Keep us posted!

Andrine

[Guest guest]

Thanks Andrine!

I am familiar with rendering as I render my own tallow for some of my soaps.

My purpose here is to see if rendering a " liquid " plant wax/oil will result in a

semi-solid result. I'm still reading up on acids, lipids, constituent make up,

etc. I'm just in from picking up a case of honey wine (aka. meade) and am eager

to see the results of this next boiling with wine. I'll try not to go crazy with

the left over bottle!!!

iel

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[Guest guest]

>

> Thanks Andrine!

> I am familiar with rendering as I render my own tallow for some

of my soaps. My purpose here is to see if rendering a " liquid " plant

wax/oil will result in a semi-solid result. I'm still reading up on

acids, lipids, constituent make up, etc. I'm just in from picking up

a case of honey wine (aka. meade) and am eager to see the results of

this next boiling with wine. I'll try not to go crazy with the left

over bottle!!!

> iel

Right on! I'll be eagerly awaiting news of your results. And mead

is lovely to drink. I used to make the Scandinavian version called

sima. Great stuff! (Except when you get into a car wreck while it's

fermenting, and you come home from the hospital many days later to

find a serious after-the-party smell permeating your entire apartment

building and when you get up to your floor you realize that it's

coming from your apartment and you enter to discover that your lovely

batch to which you had added potatoes as an experiment (on the advice

of your grandmother) has exploded all over the place... I really

don't recommend that... Terribly messy, and leaving a mystery as to

what it would have tasted like <grin> Anya -- did I win the long-run-

on-sentence contest for this week? <another grin>)

Andrine

[Guest guest]

I found a highly technical article at the following site

concerning " Chemical Reactions of Oil, Fat and Fat Based Products " by

the Department of Chemical Engineering, Instituto. Superior Técnico,

Lisbon (Portugal), October 1997. I'm not a chemist so some of it is

over my head.

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/chemoils.html

However this bit caught my eye regarding emulsification:

" Water-soluble gums, derived from a variety of plants, are effective in

stabilising O/W emulsions. They inhibit coalescence by increasing the

viscosity of the continuous phase and/or by forming strong films around

the oil droplets. Materials in this class include gum arabic,

tragacanth, agar, pectin, xanthan, methyl- and carboxymethylcellulose

and carrageenan. "

iel

[Guest guest]

> I found a highly technical article at the following site

> concerning " Chemical Reactions of Oil, Fat and Fat Based Products "

> by the Department of Chemical Engineering, Instituto. Superior

> Técnico, Lisbon (Portugal), October 1997.

<snip>

> However this bit caught my eye regarding emulsification:

> " Water-soluble gums, derived from a variety of plants, are effective

> in stabilising O/W emulsions. They inhibit coalescence by increasing

> the viscosity of the continuous phase and/or by forming strong films

> around the oil droplets. Materials in this class include gum arabic,

> tragacanth, agar, pectin, xanthan, methyl- and carboxymethylcellulose

> and carrageenan. "

> iel

>

Ooooh! This is really cool! I think a lot of us can use this info to

help us with lotions and other cosmetic preparations that we make and

perfume ourselves. I love this group and all of our curiosity that

leads us to heavy research! Thanks bunches iel!

Andrine

P.S. I'm currently doing some deep research myself. I'm studying my

Evernia prunastri (oakmoss) and its close look-alike (which also grows

intermingled with it) Ramalina farinacea. I was having a hard time

discerning between the two, so that led me to the research. I want to

know 100% that what I have is what it's supposed to be.

Incidentally, in case anyone's interested, the antimicrobial activity

of the other lichen (Ramalina farinacea) is currently being researched

for its ability to destroy clinical isolates of Staphylococcus aureus.

It's outperforming tetracycline and ampicillin -- whoo-hoo! Let's hear

it for the naturals! Mother Nature knows her stuff... Take that, IFRA!

[Guest guest]

> Right on! I'll be eagerly awaiting news of your results. And mead

> is lovely to drink. I used to make the Scandinavian version called

> sima. Great stuff!

> Andrine

>

Oh what a disaster!! Boiling the olive oil with the wine almost

turned into a dangerous situation - reminding me of the hazards of

working with hot oils. Word of caution to anyone else trying these

experiments out! But all is not lost. Here's the scoop:

4oz extra virgin olive oil and 10oz honey wine. Within the first

15min I could recognize the alcohol boiling out of the mixture, with

the oil hissing every now and then. About 2hrs into simmering the oil

started to give off a very pungent olive odor. I decided to turn the

temperature down even more, fearing that I was burning it. About 30

minutes later, while I was in the other room, I heard a huge BANG! I

went to investigate, only to find that the entire contents of the pan

had EXPLODED all over the ceiling, cabinets, stove, you name it. What

a hysterical mess. Thank goodness it didn't catch fire and no one got

burned. It COULD have been a very dangerous accident. I just finished

cleaning the lovely mess.

The residual oil/honey mixture was noteworthy. Some splotches were a

nice tan, greasy-syrupy texture that smelled like toasted honey nuts

and absorbed nicely into the skin. Others were either seperated olive

oil or dried honey wine syrup. Very difficult to clean up in some

spots. My ceiling is permanently stained. I am needless to say re-

grouping from the incident by writing this blurp here and enjoying

the remaining contents of the meade bottle!

iel

[Guest guest]

><snip> While I was in the other room, I heard a huge BANG! I

> went to investigate, only to find that the entire contents of the

> pan had EXPLODED all over the ceiling, cabinets, stove, you name

> it. What a hysterical mess. Thank goodness it didn't catch fire and

> no one got burned. It COULD have been a very dangerous accident.

<snip>

> iel

Holy COW! It's a good thing you weren't there next to it when it blew

up. But then, maybe it gave off subtle warning signs that you would

have seen/heard/smelled if you were there...? I'm sure my own brew

made some telltale noises while I was away... (If a bottle of mead

explodes and there's no one in the room to hear it, does it make a

sound?) As for the ceiling -- it sounds like the start of a nice

Venetian plaster treatment.... : )

Andrine

[Guest guest]

>snip

>iel wrote

>Oh what a disaster!! Boiling the olive oil with the wine almost

>turned into a dangerous situation - reminding me of the hazards of

>working with hot oils. Word of caution to anyone else trying these

>experiments out! snip

>I heard a huge BANG! I

>went to investigate, only to find that the entire contents of the pan

>had EXPLODED all over the ceiling, cabinets, stove, you name it. What

>a hysterical mess. Thank goodness it didn't catch fire and no one got

>burned. It COULD have been a very dangerous accident. I just finished

>cleaning the lovely mess.

>snip

>

>iel

Have you considered wrapping the pot with 2 layers of plastic loosely (for

expansion of contents) and than tying bungee cord around your pot. This

method is suggested for making liquid soap when using the alcohol method.

You still have to watch it so that you can get the temp of your cooker

right.Then you have to watch it less often and just allow it to simmer/boil.

This may save everyone is considering trying a ceiling and cleaning up

afterwards.

Poh Yee

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[Guest guest]

" I heard a huge BANG! I went to investigate, only to find that the

entire contents of the pan had EXPLODED all over the ceiling, cabinets,

stove, you name it. What a hysterical mess. Thank goodness it didn't

catch fire and no one got burned. It COULD have been a very dangerous

accident. I just finished cleaning the lovely mess. "

Dear iel,

Oh my goodness gracious! Every intrepid experimenter has a few of

those. That's why I try to do most of those types of experiments

outside on my deck. I don't like to clean up those kinds of messes

inside of my house. May I suggest goggles, heat proof gloves, long

sleeves, and having a fire extinguisher on hand at all times. You

deserve to sit back with your feet up for a while after that one.

Your sister experimenter,

Debbie

[Guest guest]

>

> > Tonight I tried boiling down some virgin olive oil. .... Comments?

> iel

>

You might want to try blending your olive oil with melted beeswax, or

simply using olive butter as a base to start from. There's no water

in olive oil to boil off, and olive isn't a drying (skin forming) oil

like linseed.

I find oils that are heated much above cold process soap temps lose

viscosity, gain a burnt ordor, and do go rancid much more quickly,

even with the addition of rosemary oil extract.

And there's the fire danger =:0

I would think too that such burnt oils would lose much of their

conditioning properties, having broken the fatty acid chains in the

process perhaps.

For a " non-petroleum " jelly consistency, you could start with about 6

oil (olive or jojoba--which resists rancidity much better--) to 2

beeswax, thicker for a solid blend. You can get the washed/scentless

(washed senseless?) beeswax if you don't want the sweet scent of the

wax.

I use olive butter often in salves and lotion bars, it's rather nice

stuff and fairly widely available.

[Guest guest]

Hi all

Well, since I've spent my monthly budget for play stuffs, I was

wondering if someone on-list would be willing to participate in this

next one. Since my last explosion, I've managed a truely DECADENT

infusion of frankincense resin tears, olive oil, and honey wine. It's

reeeeaaaallly nice! Anyhow, I stumbled across the British

Pharmaceutical Codex, 1911 at:

http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/bpc1911/olea_oleu_emul.html

discussing emusification of olive oil with acacia gum and distilled

water.

Would anyone with these items on hand be willing to give it a go and

report back? If not, I'm stuck until next month for my next " allowance " !

Also, point of interest on emulsification in general at the same site:

http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/bpc1911/emulsiones.html

Thanks for indulging me!

iel