Re: R: Africa Stone (hyraceum)

[Guest guest]

>

> " An idea for a civet-like note would be Africa stone tincture which Mandy

> Aftel

> sells and which she describes as a cross between civet

> and musk (I think that's what she said-- check it out

> to make sure) "

> __________________________________________________________

> Ciao , Hyraceum is more Castoreum like with a definite urinary note

> present also in goat hair hind legs tincture. It is not civet like at all.

> It might be a substitute to Civet from an ethical point of view or as a

> " fixative " but not from an olfactory stand. Hyraceum is a very exciting

> material to smell, I think it might be right to add a touch of vulgarity to

> some fragrances or in fruity blends with Osmanthus. The urinary note is very

> strange because it is quite human rather than animal, like baby's urine.

> Apart from Goat hair tincture, whose urinary note is very " goaty " , only

> black current absolute possesses such a note, but that one is more " gatty "

> or " ratty "

>

Oops! Sorry, Mandy Aftel calls Africa Stone a cross between civet and

castoreum-- not

musk! I should have checked that before I posted. I guess the civet note is up

for debate

and, like I said, I have never smelled civet and, apart from curiosity, have no

interest in it.

I have found that the Africa Stone does really great things to certain blends.

As far as

whether or not it will add a civet note-- depends on who you ask. Thanks

Salaam!

[Guest guest]

> >

> > " An idea for a civet-like note would be Africa stone tincture

which Mandy

> > Aftel

> > sells and which she describes as a cross between civet

> > and musk (I think that's what she said-- check it out

> > to make sure) "

> > __________________________________________________________

> > Ciao , Hyraceum is more Castoreum like with a definite

urinary note

> > present also in goat hair hind legs tincture.

To me, the raw material and its tincture doesn't seem to my nose to

be like any of those! The solidified, aged droppings have a

very " stable-like " smell with a strong dried straw and elephant

smell. (The Hyrax is the only living descending of the elephant, even

though it looks like a cute large rodent). I don't get the fecal

cheesiness (or floral aspect in dilution) of civet, nor do I get any

the kind of blunt lanolin tanginess of goat from this. It is, simply,

hyraceum and I think I see perfumers struggle to categorize it to

make it more popular.

[Guest guest]

> > > Ciao , Hyraceum is more Castoreum like with a definite

> urinary note

> > > present also in goat hair hind legs tincture.

> To me, the raw material and its tincture doesn't seem to my nose to

> be like any of those! The solidified, aged droppings have a

> very " stable-like " smell with a strong dried straw and elephant

> smell. (The Hyrax is the only living descending of the elephant, even

> though it looks like a cute large rodent). I don't get the fecal

> cheesiness (or floral aspect in dilution) of civet, nor do I get any

> the kind of blunt lanolin tanginess of goat from this. It is, simply,

> hyraceum and I think I see perfumers struggle to categorize it to

> make it more popular.

I have a question about hyraceum... and I'm serious. If it's basically

a small elephant, and people are using it's aged 'droppings', why

doesn't large elephant droppings produce the same effect? If the smell

is fecal/urinary in nature, is there a reason to use the droppings of a

particular type of elephant vs a big one that produces far more

droppings at a time? (ok, don't laugh, I can't see what the difference

is).

Even if you want aged droppings, wouldn't it be easier to find giant

piles of elephant droppings laying around where people still keep

elephants, such as in zoo's or preserves? It could become an industry

for some third world nations, and would help save their elephants if

this were a valuable commodity, and given that one elephant can eat a

few trees a day, the volume produced would drop both price and

availability.

I just find it odd that hyraceum droppings would have a different odor

than large asian or african elephant droppings... they have the same

type of digestion? This isn't comparable to specific glands (civet or

musk deer) that don't exist on other animals...

Helen

[Guest guest]

Dear , as I got my raw Hyraceum from you, at least we know that we talk

about the same thing. Your description of Civet shows me also that you have a

rare nose, as rare as people able to appreciate Civet smell. In fact there is

no civet likeliness in Hyraceum, but the affinity with castoreum is definite

to me as in the raw materials (Africa stone and Castoreum pouches) as well as

in their absolutes. Your description of goat hair tincture is better than I

could have done (English is not my mother tongue)but it refers to the

pheromone that comes from the head ot the goat. The other goat pheromone is

expelled with urine and genrously spread on the hind legs during the rutting

period. There the heavy pheromone molecules are digested and broken down by

the bacterial flora that lives on the hair (as our owm armpits if we don't

shave them)into lighter and more odoriferous molecules.

The tincture of these hair is very different as the other one and obviously

have a distinct urinary note (a " goaty " one), while the Hyraceum note is very

much human like (baby's urine).

This is what makes this scent very exciting to explore, it recalls atavist

emotions.

Perfumers do not necessarily Endeavour to describe a smell in order to make

it more popular (and sell it). Describing a smell is the

“listening to the soul” while smelling a fragrance is the basic of making

perfumes, becoming aware of the emotions it produces and of the memories it

awakens. The exercise of describing them by words sums up the method of Kodo

(the Japanese Way of Perfume), because by wording, one conceptualizes, and by

conceptualizing one intellectually appropriates the emotional experiences.

This rationalization of irrational experiences (olfactory emotions) allows

the perfumer to lean on his intelligence while following his emotions during

the process of perfume composing.

[Guest guest]

helenae02 a écrit :

> [...]

> I just find it odd that hyraceum droppings would have a different odor

> than large asian or african elephant droppings... they have the same

> type of digestion? This isn't comparable to specific glands (civet or

> musk deer) that don't exist on other animals...

>

maybe they don't eat the same stuff?

that would be enough to explain.

just compare the characteristic smell of feces of breastmilk fed babies

to the ones who drink formula. 2 different worlds.

fabienne

[Guest guest]

........helenae02 a écrit :

I just find it odd that hyraceum droppings would have a different odor than

large asian or african elephant droppings... they have the same type of

digestion? This isn't comparable to specific glands (civet or musk deer) that

don't exist on other animals...

> maybe they don't eat the same stuff?that would be enough to explain.just

compare the characteristic smell of feces of breastmilk fed babies to the

ones who drink formula. 2 different worlds.

> fabienne..........

Hyraxes seem to be quite average little critters, resembling an over-grown

guinea-pig and famous almost solely for being the closest living relative to

elephants. They are indeed strange animals.

A hyrax's brain is like an elephant's, while its stomach is like a horse's.

The skeleton, however, is akin to a rhinoceros's. The hind feet are entirely

different from these animals, more like a tapir's. Peeking into the mouth of

a hyrax, you may recognize similar upper incisors from rodents' teeth, upper

cheek teeth from rhino's and the lower cheek teeth like a hippo's. They even

have two teeth in their upper jaw that resemble elephant tusks. The overall

anatomy of a hyrax, however, is like an elephant's or horse's.

Hyraceum was used by men long before perfumers did it. This substance has

been a traditional remedy used in Africa and middle east for thousands of

years.

It is not strange that other animal scents such as Civet, Muskdeer Castoreum

and Ambergris belong to all traditional pharmacopeias with the same

indications; epilepsy, convulsions and feminine hormonal disorders. All these

animal odoriferous substances are in fact pheromones. Although all animals

largely use pheromones in the reproducing process, very few of them, such as

Civet, Muskdeer and Castoreum possess a specific gland that produces them in

quantity to be expelled in a pure form from their body. Most animals,

including humans, expel their pheromones together with sweat, urine and

feces.

The same do Cape hyraxes, they produce large, communal piles of dung and

urine that eventually congeal into a sticky mass which is Hyraceum. They

choose a place nearby their homes and it is probable that this odoriferous

mass has a social pheromonal function (for example regiulating the sexual

maturity of the individuals), as well as marking the territory of the

colony.

It is said that perfumery Hyraceum is fossilized, and it is in fact extremely

dry and hard like a stone, but I could not ascertain how old is the product,

10 000 years as some say, or are just a few years in the dry climate of south

Africa sufficient to dry it out so thoroughly?

The tincture is obtained by infusing the powdered raw material into pure

alcohol for a few weeks.

The smell is akin to Castoreum but has a distinct urinary note that can be

found only in goat hair tincture among perfumery materials.

Hyraceum definitely has an affinity with human beings, as its medical use

shows. Its smell as well is not disgusting as one may think, but it could be

described as “interesting”, even to unprepared people who not in the least

perfumers.

In fact we are genetically conditioned to react to this type of smells,

particularly women who by their nature of mothers have to do “biologically”

with children’s urine and excrements.

Pheromones from different species are not that much different, even those of

insects and mammals. This is why we human can be influenced by such

substances.

Abdussalaam Attar

[Guest guest]

> yes, it is like this, we also evacuate pheromones through fecies

and urine,

> like most mammals, many of which mark their individual or social

territory

> with these.

> Several hippotesis can be done about the function of this aromatic

pile of

> pheromones, based on the (recent) knowledge we have of pheromone

comunication

> in other species. Hyraxes seem to be the only society of animals

who have such

> a beheaviour.

> Salaam

Thanks Salaam:). That brings to mind another question... why do we

humans find body odors so repulsive if they contain phemerones?

Animals love to smell each others' excretement, they mark their

territories this way, and perhaps recognize family members this way.

I can see territory marking as a reason for human repulsion to

excretement, but besides breast feeding infant excretement, no human

wants to smell another human's, including their parents or

children's. You cannot attract a mate using it, it would make most

other normal humans, even closely related ones, run away. For

territory marking, humans cannot discern between their family/tribe's

vs another's, they are equally repugnant.

If we find our own species phemerones repulsive in this manner, why

would we find another species phemerones from the same source

attractive? Are there in fact 2 kinds of phemerones, attraction and

repulsion?

Helen

[Guest guest]

--- helenae02 <helenae@...> wrote:

>

> Thanks Salaam:). That brings to mind another

> question... why do we

> humans find body odors so repulsive if they contain

> phemerones?

> Animals love to smell each others' excretement, they

> mark their

> territories this way, and perhaps recognize family

> members this way.

>

> I can see territory marking as a reason for human

> repulsion to

> excretement, but besides breast feeding infant

> excretement, no human

> wants to smell another human's, including their

> parents or

> children's. You cannot attract a mate using it, it

> would make most

> other normal humans, even closely related ones, run

> away. For

> territory marking, humans cannot discern between

> their family/tribe's

> vs another's, they are equally repugnant.

>

> If we find our own species phemerones repulsive in

> this manner, why

> would we find another species phemerones from the

> same source

> attractive? Are there in fact 2 kinds of phemerones,

> attraction and

> repulsion?

> Helen

>****************************************************

OoooK folks,

I'd like to suggest we move on from this thread. I

think we've had enough about animal/human bodily

excretions for the time being, and now we're moving

into Human Neuroendocriniology, which I doubt anyone's

an expert on here.

-Patty

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[Guest guest]

> OoooK folks,

> I'd like to suggest we move on from this thread. I

> think we've had enough about animal/human bodily

> excretions for the time being, and now we're moving

> into Human Neuroendocriniology, which I doubt anyone's

> an expert on here.

>

> -Patty

Of course we may stop here although pheromones and olfactory psychology are

at the core of perfumery and although we have come nowhere near any vulgarity

with a scientific approach.

As for Human Neuroendocriniology every one on the group should have 's

chart on psycho-aromatherapy. Olfaction and subsequently perfumery cannot be

properly approached ignoring how scents trigger the endocrine system.

Anybody interested to get answers to the mystery of human pheromones can

visit the last page of my research on pheromones;

http://www.profumo.it/perfume/pheromone_perfume/human_pheromones.asp

Salaam

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> TV dinner still cooling?

> Check out " Tonight's Picks " on TV.

> http://tv./

>

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Perfumers do not necessarily Endeavour to describe a smell in order to make

it more popular (and sell it). Describing a smell is the

“listening to the soul” while smelling a fragrance is the basic of making

perfumes, becoming aware of the emotions it produces and of the memories it

awakens. The exercise of describing them by words sums up the method of Kodo

(the Japanese Way of Perfume), because by wording, one conceptualizes, and by

conceptualizing one intellectually appropriates the emotional experiences.

This rationalization of irrational experiences (olfactory emotions) allows

the perfumer to lean on his intelligence while following his emotions during

the process of perfume composing.

Bravis Salaam

That is a wonderful description, the best I have had the priviledge to read

about the concept emotion, intelligence and irrational rationalising of perfume

composing....

Thank you

Janita

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[Guest guest]

The biggest difference I can see (besides the appearance and size) is

that: " Cape hyraxes produce large, communal piles of dung and urine

that eventually congeal into a sticky mass. "

While elephants walk away from their dung, so it would be a bit more

difficult to harvest (although likely more plentiful).

I just wonder if anyone's tried comparing the 2 and if there were a

reason why the Hyrax dung is superior to their larger relatives. It

Hi.... firstly apologies to patty to continue this once more....

Possibly the reason the hyrax dung is superior is as Salaam suggests about the

pheromonaal activity.....

I observewhere elephants deficate and walk away they also do not urinate upon

dung..... and I think urine has a lot to do with the overall development of the

hyraceum ... coupled with the time is takes to mature and dry....

ok patty no more

:-)

Janita

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[Guest guest]

West a écrit :

> I'd like to suggest we move on from this thread. I

> think we've had enough about animal/human bodily

> excretions for the time being, and now we're moving

> into Human Neuroendocriniology, which I doubt anyone's

> an expert on here.

As a participant of this thread, I wish to apologize if I have offended

someone. This group is so fantastic, I would be very sorry if I had

spoiled something.

I also wanted to mention that, as a neuroscientist, I feel very

interested in neuroendocrinology topics, and I have a hard time

dissociating the two fields of knowledge: perfumes (art) versus smells

(psychology).

cheers,

fab

[Guest guest]

" Thanks for your comments about this subject. I think I

was being a little close-minded before, so I withdraw

my suggestion. You make good points that perfumery is

inextricably linked with pheremones and human

psychology, and it is clearly of interest to the group

members. So let the poo talk resume! "

Yo Patty,

Thanks for this, I was just writing to ask why you were dampening

this thread when I saw this response from you come in. Maybe we

occasionally talk pheromes, etc, because its a part of who we are. We

have mammilian physicalities, large intestines and some other ooky

stuff. Until we become just brains in jars, we will be curious about

how and why these bodies work the way they do.

Yours truly, a gross nurse,

Debbie

[Guest guest]

> Hi all,

>

> Thanks for your comments about this subject. I think I

> was being a little close-minded before, so I withdraw

> my suggestion. You make good points that perfumery is

> inextricably linked with pheremones and human

> psychology, and it is clearly of interest to the group

> members. So let the poo talk resume!

>

> -Patty

I'm interested in poo and sex talk ONLY because it is such a key

component in understanding why people react to certain smells and not

others... which is what perfume is about.

However, I don't want to offend anyone either, and I'm too stream of

conscious when I write to appreciate sometimes how it comes across.

Sorry if I was offensive too.