Perfume safety question

[Guest guest]

I know this has been discussed many times, but I still have concerns

I can't find answers for.

Researching safety, there seem to be issues with more EOs then not -

to varying degrees. Dillution and proper use being a factor.

I arrived at the point where I don't even dare share perfume because

of this.

I have several nice blends I love to wear, and I have gotten

requests for. But to use something, judging it safe, and much

preferable to chemical cocktails, or sharing it with others, are

different subjects and risks.

I was planing on using a few as Christmas gifts, but am quite

hesitant now. Paranoid even, after having been part of a herb group

(unsubscribed now) that among very good valid info, also agressively

attacked people using certain ingredients (constantly).

I love NP, value the many expert oppinions, and did much research to

try to sort things out. Pros like Many Aftel even(LOVE her book),

are using/suggesting ingredients like Citrus, Benzoin, Calamus etc,

which are condemmed as not safe. Personally I haven't had any

problems, " lucky " I guess, but I don't want to irresponsibly harm

others that might not be so " lucky "

Perfumes are higher concentrations - what is the dillution rate to

get a nice, long lasting perfume, and still properly dilute to

safety ratios? I've played with that, finding the perfume quality

suffers. Maybe perfumes should have a different palettes then

lighter scents?

I even considered including a datasheet with the perfumes, like

pharmacuticals have to - with ingredients, properties and possible

side effects -but then, this is saying it's a drug, which falls

under FDA restrictions.

Is it all really this bad, or am I just in a bad place on

perspective?

I keep looking at our professional members' gorgeous sites and

products, thinking there has to be a way. There must be a way of

being able to safely share Natural Perfumes, without getting caught

up in safety and legal issues to the point of paralysis.

I would very much appreciate any advice.

Thanks, ne

[Guest guest]

>

> I know this has been discussed many times, but I still have concerns

> I can't find answers for.

> Researching safety, there seem to be issues with more EOs then not -

> to varying degrees. Dillution and proper use being a factor.

> I arrived at the point where I don't even dare share perfume because

> of this.

> I have several nice blends I love to wear, and I have gotten

> requests for. But to use something, judging it safe, and much

> preferable to chemical cocktails, or sharing it with others, are

> different subjects and risks.

> I was planing on using a few as Christmas gifts, but am quite

> hesitant now. Paranoid even, after having been part of a herb group

> (unsubscribed now) that among very good valid info, also agressively

> attacked people using certain ingredients (constantly).

>

> I love NP, value the many expert oppinions, and did much research to

> try to sort things out. Pros like Many Aftel even(LOVE her book),

> are using/suggesting ingredients like Citrus, Benzoin, Calamus etc,

> which are condemmed as not safe. Personally I haven't had any

> problems, " lucky " I guess, but I don't want to irresponsibly harm

> others that might not be so " lucky "

>

> Perfumes are higher concentrations - what is the dillution rate to

> get a nice, long lasting perfume, and still properly dilute to

> safety ratios? I've played with that, finding the perfume quality

> suffers. Maybe perfumes should have a different palettes then

> lighter scents?

> I even considered including a datasheet with the perfumes, like

> pharmacuticals have to - with ingredients, properties and possible

> side effects -but then, this is saying it's a drug, which falls

> under FDA restrictions.

>

> Is it all really this bad, or am I just in a bad place on

> perspective?

> I keep looking at our professional members' gorgeous sites and

> products, thinking there has to be a way. There must be a way of

> being able to safely share Natural Perfumes, without getting caught

> up in safety and legal issues to the point of paralysis.

>

> I would very much appreciate any advice.

> Thanks, ne

I think that you answer your own questions. And the fear for whatever

reasons, has gotten the better of you. This is not in any way

directly related, but I will tell you a true story. I have a relative

who, whenever I speak with them goes on and on about every ache and

pain in their body, they then move on to their lousey job, their

family and everything else that is negative in their life. They can't

understand why things never go their way. One day not too long ago I

said to them, The Universe is of an interesting intellegence. Whatever

we put out is what comes back to us.

So, think about this. If we are fearful of everything, fear is what we

get in return. It keeps getting bigger and bigger, until we are

overwhelmed, and unable to think reasonably or pull ourselves up out

of it. Yet that is exactly what we have to do. I suggest that if you

stop being overly fearful, fear will no longer be your return reward.

Change your mind, and you change your world.

About Perfume: It is good to question and it is good to be cautious,

and have a healthy concern; and yet, perhaps perfume isn't your thing.

Not everyone wears perfume, or is able to wear perfume. That doesn't

mean that something is wrong with the perfume, or that the perfumer is

being careless, or irresponsible. It just means that the anxiety seems

to be in control of your being able think rationally or to enjoy

fragrance, or share it with others without second guessing your choices.

A perfume extrait, in general terms is between 18 and 30% formula, set

into a carrier of either alcohol or oil. The formula itself can be

composed of ingredients in a way that they comply with safety

guidelines. It isn't like perfumers are making toxic soups of

concentrated lethal ingredients.

There is always the possibility that someone will not react favorably

to every scent,cosmetic,or product that is put on the skin. I have had

problems with certain products. But I do the sensible thing, I stop

using them. I don't think that because I did use something that made

me itch or cause a rash, that it would then kill me or cause me severe

bodily harm. I am just not wired that way. I take a few deep healing

breaths and move on. I may have been that one in a million, who got a

reaction.

Paranoia, about anything is much deeper an issue than perfume, or it's

ingredients.

Speaking as a perfumer I would have to say that if the information,

data, etc.. is causing us too much stress, or we get to a place where

we are unable to trust our own good judgement, paired with healthy

data, we need to turn off that switch and do something else.

Best, Z.....

Zz's Petals Parfume Moderne

http://www.zzspetals.com

[Guest guest]

sblessinghww <sblessinghww@...> wrote:

Researching safety, there seem to be issues with more EOs then not -

to varying degrees. Dillution and proper use being a factor.

I have several nice blends I love to wear, and I have gotten

requests for. But to use something, judging it safe, and much

preferable to chemical cocktails, or sharing it with others, are

different subjects and risks.

tly).

I love NP, value the many expert oppinions, and did much research to

try to sort things out. Pros like Many Aftel even(LOVE her book),

are using/suggesting ingredients like Citrus, Benzoin, Calamus etc,

which are condemmed as not safe.

I even considered including a datasheet with the perfumes, like

pharmacuticals have to - with ingredients, properties and possible

side effects -but then, this is saying it's a drug, which falls

under FDA restrictions.

Is it all really this bad, or am I just in a bad place on

perspective?.

I would very much appreciate any advice.

Thanks, ne

Hi ne,

I have had moments like you are having. But I don't think the picture is really

so negative. Many of the restricted oils are also very strong and are very

effective at the recommended dilutions (such as oakmoss). Some don't really

seem necessary to me because safer alternatives can be found (for instance I am

making a tea tincture in hopes of replacing the sensitizing tea absolute).

Citrus oils can still be used in small amounts and there is bergaptene free

bergamot. Also distilled citrus is probably safer than cold-pressed (although

this is in question) so I tend to use it more freely than the others. It is

more challenging to create a beautiful perfume once you understand the safety

issues but it isn't impossible. And if you share perfumes with your friends or

eventually decide to sell them, you can always include lists of ingredients and

warnings about possible reactions. No cosmetic product is really safe for every

person. Nothing is hypoallergenic.

Also, I know that you use medicinal herbs and so you must have faced these

issues before. There are constant warnings from the medical establishment about

the dangers of herbs and yet, people continue to use them and far more safely

than they use tested and approved conventional medicines. People die and become

disabled from using conventional medicine all the time! Deaths and serious

illnesses caused by use of medicinal herbs are very rare. I really think the

same concept holds true for natural perfumery. Synthetics seem to be far more

dangerous if you look at all the asthma attacks and allergic reactions they

cause not to mention all the carcinogenic materials they include.

I think the best approach is to educate ourselves as much as possible about the

risks and also the benefits and learn to work within the limits of what we

believe to be safe. It is challenging but it isn't impossible.

---------------------------------

Everyone is raving about the all-new beta.

[Guest guest]

> Speaking as a perfumer I would have to say that if the information,

> data, etc.. is causing us too much stress, or we get to a place where

> we are unable to trust our own good judgement, paired with healthy

> data, we need to turn off that switch and do something else.

> Best, Z.....

> Zz's Petals Parfume Moderne

> http://www.zzspetals.com <http://www.zzspetals.com>

Thank you Zz, for the long reply. You are right about fear and

complaining, I also know people like that, but I'm far from being like

that. I stay as far away from it as I can-the Universe even listens to

what one listens to..

What I am experiencing is most likely an overdose of caution, combined

with listening to the wrong people. I only want to make sure that I have

all the facts.

Giving up perfume or perfumery - thanks, but no thanks. There is no way

that is going to happen - unless I loose my nose. It's not only fun and

full of new discoveries all the time, it's also entering a dimension

which is pure and innocent, yet filled with mystery and magic. It has

rules which are different then the ones man makes. Sometimes harsher,

sometimes more forgiving. This is what we can learn from the plants and

essences. But when it comes to the reality that's man made, a little

paranoia is a healthy attitude - at least this is what I have learned.

I appreciate the info on dillution amount. For some reason I got the

impression that " perfume " was more concentrated then that.

Thanks again, ne

[Guest guest]

>And if you share perfumes with your friends or

eventually decide to sell them, you can always include lists of

ingredients and

warnings about possible reactions. No cosmetic product is really safe

for every

person. Nothing is hypoallergenic.

Also, I know that you use medicinal herbs and so you must have faced

these

issues before. There are constant warnings from the medical

establishment about

the dangers of herbs and yet, people continue to use them and far more

safely

than they use tested and approved conventional medicines. People die and

become

disabled from using conventional medicine all the time! Deaths and

serious

illnesses caused by use of medicinal herbs are very rare. I really think

the

same concept holds true for natural perfumery. Synthetics seem to be far

more

dangerous if you look at all the asthma attacks and allergic reactions

they

cause not to mention all the carcinogenic materials they include.

I think the best approach is to educate ourselves as much as possible

about the

risks and also the benefits and learn to work within the limits of what

we

believe to be safe. It is challenging but it isn't impossible.

Thank you very much , yes this is the conclusion I have basically

arrived at. Pharmacuticals or Sythetic Perfumers bashing naturals

doesn't even bother me. It's to be expected.

I guess it's the selling that worries me. Even in NP files, is a lot of

info that can make someone sweat bullets considering legal

possibilities. I guess whoever said that a little knowlede, as well as a

lot of knowledge can be dangerous, was right.

I'm confident selling any other product I make, that it is safe and

effective. Now that someone wants to buy my perfume I'm going queasy.

Personally the choice is easy - for most of what nature causes, nature

has a cure (not the really toxic of course!) Chemistry can't claim that.

Nature designes it's creatures (including plants) to warn of danger

-hence the strong offensive scent of predators, the nicer scents for

vegetarians. In pregnancy some scents of plants I previously loved were

suddenly repulsive - things that can't be put in data and numbers, can

keep us safe.

I'm lucky to not have asthma, but synths turn my stomach to varying

degrees, none pleasant. The taste of smelling a strong syth on someone

walking by lasts for hours.....

I'm glad you agree on providing info. I'm thinking if there is a list of

ingredients including pros and cons, it really is up to the consumer to

decide. But I just realized, I might be really wrestling with a legal

question, rather then perfumery. I'm sorry to have brought this in. But

thank you for your reply , I think what you said is just what I

needed to hear from someone else then myself.

Best Wishes ne

[Guest guest]

At 12:19 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote:.

But I just realized, I might be really wrestling with a legal

>question, rather then perfumery. I'm sorry to have brought this in. But

>thank you for your reply , I think what you said is just what I

>needed to hear from someone else then myself.

Hi ne:

Can you clarify your legal question? If you're in the States, there

aren't really any, AFAIK. The IFRA guidelines are voluntary, and the

EU regs are mandatory, but they only refer to the EU.

Anya McCoy

Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com

Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org

Natural Perfumers Chat Group

/

[Guest guest]

Anya <mccoy@...> wrote: At 12:19 AM

12/2/2006, you wrote:.

But I just realized, I might be really wrestling with a legal

>question, rather then perfumery. I'm sorry to have brought this in. But

>thank you for your reply , I think what you said is just what I

>needed to hear from someone else then myself.

Hi ne:

Can you clarify your legal question? If you're in the States, there

aren't really any, AFAIK. The IFRA guidelines are voluntary, and the

EU regs are mandatory, but they only refer to the EU.

I know this question is for ne but it seems to me there is always a legal

consideration when you sell a product because if you make someone sick or injure

someone with an unsafe product, then there is always the possibility of a

lawsuit. A warning label helps to cover your bases but doesn't protect you

completely. So ethical considerations aside, it is best to know that you are

offering a safe product. That said, I may be completely off base about

ne's legal concerns?

---------------------------------

Everyone is raving about the all-new beta.

[Guest guest]

> Hi ne:

>

> Can you clarify your legal question? If you're in the States, there

> aren't really any, AFAIK. The IFRA guidelines are voluntary, and the

> EU regs are mandatory, but they only refer to the EU.

>

>

> Anya McCoy

> Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com

> Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org

> Natural Perfumers Chat Group

> /

>

Thanks Anya - yes I am in the US. My legal concern is mostly FDA

regulations -the file is in the NP files, too. I did research on this

on and off for years. Seems they have everything covered, except for

the most basic of soaps (not a drug and not a cosmetic)- I know that

none of the home based business has FDA involved, yet it seems

that " legaly " anyone providing a product to use on the body should be.

People are also rather quick to sue. For example, the last two years

we had to carry a 1 million $ insurance to sell at the farmers market.

Whoever did not do this, was not allowed to sell anymore. Why? At some

market in CT a lady tripped over a farmer's box, suing every farmer at

that market -strangely enough, she had a case.

Therefore, if someone sells a product, things like that are a very

real possibility. People have issues of all kinds, and if something

goes wrong, something/someone gets blamed. Ultimately, it doesn't even

matter if something causes something, what matters is that one can

prove that it did or didn't. By then you're already legaly involved.

Yes, a good insurance would be the answer, but they're rather

expensive. Definitely for bigger businesses, but not if the sales are

off and on to a rather small customer base.

Ignorance is no excuse, intent might count for something, but

ultimately I believe in finding out as much information as I can

before acting on something, at least I can then know I've done

everything I could, while being able to prove character of

responsibility and informed choices.

At least this is my take

Thanks, ne