Re: Fixation Strength of Basenote Tinctures

[Guest guest]

At 07:38 AM 12/18/2006, you wrote:

>How does the fixation strength of certain basenote tinctures compare

>with the fixation strength of the same material in their oil,

>resinoid or absolute forms? For example, if one were making the

>following tinctures using 96% Alcohol, Arctander's tincture

>percentages and filtering, how would the fixation rate of the same

>weight of the tincture compare to the respective material's other

>forms?

>1 gram Vanilla tincture 10% versus 1 gram Vanilla absolute

snipped rest

Wow, , how complex. I've never performed the experiments, so I

can't answer. I don't know if anyone else has, either, or they should

have replied by now.

If you wish to conduct these experiments, I have a form that Mandy

Aftel has given the Guild members so that they may study the odor intensity.

Anya McCoy

Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com

Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org

Natural Perfumers Community Group

/

[Guest guest]

Hello Anya and thank you for responding,

>>How does the fixation strength of certain basenote tinctures compare

>>with the fixation strength of the same material in their oil,

>>resinoid or absolute forms? For example, if one were making the

>>>following tinctures using 96% Alcohol, Arctander's tincture

>>percentages and filtering, how would the fixation rate of the same

>>weight of the tincture compare to the respective material's other

>>forms?

>>1 gram Vanilla tincture 10% versus 1 gram Vanilla absolute

snipped rest

>Wow, , how complex. I've never performed the experiments, so I

>can't answer. I don't know if anyone else has, either, or they should

>have replied by now.

Sorry, it was not my intention to be complex. Allow me to rephrase and

simplify. I chose to make certain base note tinctures because they are

easier to work with (less gunky, etc.) than the resinoids or absolutes I am

used to. My question is how much fixation am I sacrificing by using the

tincture instead of the more familiar (and harder to work with) absolute,

resinoid, etc? I am looking for a simple answer such as: one-half the

fixation, one-tenth the fixation, etc. If no one has this information,

could you direct me to where I might find it?

>If you wish to conduct these experiments, I have a form that Mandy

>Aftel has given the Guild members so that they may study the odor

>intensity.

Thank you for Mandy's form. It is very similar to the one I made in Excel.

It is always nice to see what others use.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Mark <potpourri@...> wrote: Hello Anya and thank you for

responding,

For example, if one were making the

>>>following tinctures using 96% Alcohol, Arctander's tincture

>>percentages and filtering, how would the fixation rate of the same

>>weight of the tincture compare to the respective material's other

>>forms?

>>1 gram Vanilla tincture 10% versus 1 gram Vanilla absolute

snipped rest

Sorry, it was not my intention to be complex. Allow me to rephrase and

simplify. I chose to make certain base note tinctures because they are

I am looking for a simple answer such as: one-half the

fixation, one-tenth the fixation, etc. If no one has this information,

could you direct me to where I might find it?

>If you wish to conduct these experiments, I have a form that Mandy

>Aftel has given the Guild members so that they may study the odor

>intensity.

Thank you for Mandy's form. It is very similar to the one I made in Excel.

It is always nice to see what others use.

Mark

Hi

By using a base note tincture you in some ways are already preparing the

medium for colour........ie the brighter notes of various botanics....

The only way is to jump in and find out....

As far as the amount of fixation...... it is in the maths the amount of base

note to amount of alcohol is proportionate in a % dilution... that, perhaps is

your starting block..

warm regards

Janita

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Hello Janita:

>You said:

>By using a base note tincture you in some ways are already preparing the

>medium for colour........ie the brighter notes of various botanics....

You point out another important reason to make a base note tincture:

Besides ease of workability, tinctures have brighter notes which are not

present in distilled or solvent-extracted essences and are more " true to

life " to the botanical as found in nature. I imagine the dilution with

alcohol also factors in. It may be very interesting to blend Labdanum

absolute with Labdanum tincture or Vanilla absolute with Vanilla tincture,

etc. to arrive at a closer-to-nature material with fixation reinforcement

from the absolutes.

>The only way is to jump in and find out....

Ultimately, this is true and that is why, I believe, Anya suggested using

Mandy's Drydown Study. However, I would like to know if someone has already

experimented with base note tincture fixation and published their results.

>As far as the amount of fixation...... it is in the maths the amount of

>base note to amount of alcohol is proportionate in a % dilution... that,

>perhaps is your starting block..

Do you mean that, for example, a Vanilla bean tincture at 10% dilution has

10% the fixation of Vanilla absolute? Or Olibanum resin tincture at 20%

dilution has 20% the fixation of Olibanum resinoid?

As an authentic potpourri maker, fixation is crucial. Well-crafted,

authentic potpourris, unlike alcohol-carrier perfumes which are not expected

by the consumer to last more than 24 hours, must have extraordinary fixation

and last for years without the use of a " refresher spray " . This is

accomplished by using a large amount of " solid " fixatives, i.e. orris root

chips, frankincense nuggets, oakmoss, as well as a generous amount of a

complete perfume oil " juice " with top, middle and base (fixative) notes.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Mark <potpourri@...> wrote: Hello Janita:

>You said:

>By using a base note tincture you in some ways are already preparing the

>medium for colour........ie the brighter notes of various botanics....

You point out another important reason to make a base note tincture:

Besides ease of workability, tinctures have brighter notes which are not

present in distilled or solvent-extracted essences and are more " true to

life " to the botanical as found in nature. I imagine the dilution with

alcohol also factors in. It may be very interesting to blend Labdanum

absolute with Labdanum tincture or Vanilla absolute with Vanilla tincture,

etc. to arrive at a closer-to-nature material with fixation reinforcement

from the absolutes.

>The only way is to jump in and find out....

Ultimately, this is true and that is why, I believe, Anya suggested using

Mandy's Drydown Study. However, I would like to know if someone has already

experimented with base note tincture fixation and published their results.

>As far as the amount of fixation...... it is in the maths the amount of

>base note to amount of alcohol is proportionate in a % dilution... that,

>perhaps is your starting block..

Do you mean that, for example, a Vanilla bean tincture at 10% dilution has

10% the fixation of Vanilla absolute? Or Olibanum resin tincture at 20%

dilution has 20% the fixation of Olibanum resinoid?

As an authentic potpourri maker, fixation is crucial. Well-crafted,

authentic potpourris, unlike alcohol-carrier perfumes which are not expected

by the consumer to last more than 24 hours, must have extraordinary fixation

and last for years without the use of a " refresher spray " . This is

accomplished by using a large amount of " solid " fixatives, i.e. orris root

chips, frankincense nuggets, oakmoss, as well as a generous amount of a

complete perfume oil " juice " with top, middle and base (fixative) notes.

Mark

Hi

Just a quickie...... xmas now so havn't time to answer but love this

thread...... can I contact you afta the festivities?

Janita

---------------------------------

Try the all-new . " The New Version is radically easier to use " –

The Wall Street Journal

[Guest guest]

....My question is how much fixation am I sacrificing by using the

tincture instead of the more familiar (and harder to work with)

absolute,

resinoid, etc? I am looking for a simple answer such as: one-half the

fixation, one-tenth the fixation, etc.

Hi ,

I run into a similar situation (I think) when I move from small

experimental amounts to making a larger amount of a blend I have

finalized. In order to experiment in very small amounts, I have to use

tinctures for some of the ingredients that otherwise would overwhelm

the mixture, i.e., even one untinctured drop would be too much as I

must use a minimum of one drop (!) of less potent oils in the blend.

When it comes time to make a larger amount, I prefer to switch over

to using at full strength those oils that will not be too strong in

proportion to the rest. I'd rather do that than make up a large amount

of tincture -- seems a wasted effort to do that. So I have to

approximate how much of the full strength oil to substitute for a given

amount of its tincture. I do it for the most part by experimentation

as Janita says rather than by calculation. That means a slow process,

where for each oil I will put in a conservatively estimated amount,

leave the blend to sit for a while with that addition and then keep

sniffing and adjusting.

It can be frustrating given how carefully I've worked out the intial

formula using tinctures, but overall I'm happy with this procedure that

relies a lot on sensing.

e

[Guest guest]

You said:

> Just a quickie...... xmas now so havn't time to answer but love this

>thread...... can I contact you afta the festivities?

> Janita

Janita:

Yes, please do continue this thread after the festivities. In the meantime,

Merry Christmas to you in Wales. BTW, how do you say Merry Christmas in

Welsh?

Mark

[Guest guest]

I said:

>>...My question is how much fixation am I sacrificing by using the

>>tincture instead of the more familiar (and harder to work with)

>>absolute, resinoid, etc?

e replied:

> I run into a similar situation (I think) when I move from small

>experimental amounts to making a larger amount of a blend I have

>finalized. In order to experiment in very small amounts, I have to use

>tinctures for some of the ingredients that otherwise would overwhelm

>the mixture, i.e., even one untinctured drop would be too much as I

>must use a minimum of one drop (!) of less potent oils in the blend.

Dear e:

Thank you for responding to my query. I believe you are confusing

tincturing with diluting. Tincturing is an extraction process, whereas

diluting is adding alcohol to an already extracted material.

> When it comes time to make a larger amount, I prefer to switch over

>to using at full strength those oils that will not be too strong in

>proportion to the rest. I'd rather do that than make up a large amount

>of tincture -- seems a wasted effort to do that. So I have to

>approximate how much of the full strength oil to substitute for a given

>amount of its tincture. I do it for the most part by experimentation

>as Janita says rather than by calculation. That means a slow process,

>where for each oil I will put in a conservatively estimated amount,

>leave the blend to sit for a while with that addition and then keep

>sniffing and adjusting.

A suggestion: you could save a lot of time if you were to standardize your

dilutions to 1%, 10%, etc. The most precise way to do this would be to use

a perfume scale and measure the essence and alcohol by the gram. For

example, to make 10 grams of a 10% dilution of a strong oil such as Clove

bud oil, first weigh out 9g. of alcohol, zero it out and add 1g. Clove bud

oil. The result is 10 grams of Clove bud oil 10% (90% alcohol and 10% Clove

bud oil, by weight). The formula would look something like this:

(10 grams) Clove bud oil 10%:

10 X Alcohol .90 (90%) = 9 grams

10 X Clove bud oil .10 (10%) = 1 gram

> It can be frustrating given how carefully I've worked out the intial

>formula using tinctures, but overall I'm happy with this procedure that

>relies a lot on sensing.

Again, by using the above method, you would eliminate all frustration by

being able to standardize your dilutions and be able to easily adjust the

amount of the dilution from 10 grams to, say, 100 grams. You also would be

able to easily calculate the amount of pure Clove bud oil to add to a final

" juice " production keeping the same ratio of Clove bud oil to the other

essences in your formula.

Mark

[Guest guest]

Mark <potpourri@...> wrote:

You said:

> Just a quickie...... xmas now so havn't time to answer but love this

>thread...... can I contact you afta the festivities?

> Janita

Janita:

Yes, please do continue this thread after the festivities. In the meantime,

Merry Christmas to you in Wales. BTW, how do you say Merry Christmas in

Welsh?

Mark

Hi

Great......can I also contact you offline?

Nadolig llawen (welsh merry christmas)

Janita

---------------------------------

Try the all-new . " The New Version is radically easier to use " –

The Wall Street Journal

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi

>

> Great......can I also contact you offline?

>

> Nadolig llawen (welsh merry christmas)

> Janita

Nadolig llawen, Janita!

You may contact me offline if you wish. I will try to catch you before

the Spam blockers do. How do you pronounce " Nadolig llawen " (There's

that Welsh " ll " )?

Mark

[Guest guest]

Dear e:

Thank you for responding to my query. I believe you are confusing

tincturing with diluting...

- you are right, of course.

...A suggestion: you could save a lot of time if you were to

standardize your

dilutions to 1%, 10%, etc. The most precise way to do this would be to

use

a perfume scale and measure the essence and alcohol by the gram. For

example, to make 10 grams of a 10% dilution of a strong oil such as

Clove

bud oil, first weigh out 9g. of alcohol, zero it out and add 1g. Clove

bud

oil. The result is 10 grams of Clove bud oil 10% (90% alcohol and 10%

Clove

bud oil, by weight). The formula would look something like this:

(10 grams) Clove bud oil 10%:

10 X Alcohol .90 (90%) = 9 grams

10 X Clove bud oil .10 (10%) = 1 gram

You also would be

able to easily calculate the amount of pure Clove bud oil to add to a

final

" juice " production keeping the same ratio of Clove bud oil to the other

essences in your formula.

Mark

Thanks for this explanation, . I'll try to adopt this

method. I do have trouble sticking to (not to mention understanding)

even simple formulae like this, but I can see that if I got a grasp of

it, it would make things go much more smoothly. I did well in math in

school, but it was all an act. Is there anyone else out there who can

relate to my difficulty with such simple percentage stuff?

OK, specific Q: why do you say *10X* Alcohol .90, rather than

simply: 9 gr Alcohol?

Thank you for taking the time to lay this out, . I'm

printing it out now -- the first step!

e

[Guest guest]

Will someone explain - if I dilute all my fragrant materials

separately to say 10%, then I can make perfume with 10% strength only -

have I got it right? Thanks for the reply.

[Guest guest]

Edited to correct top post....

>

> Will someone explain - if I dilute all my fragrant materials

> separately to say 10%, then I can make perfume with 10% strength

only -

> have I got it right? Thanks for the reply.

>

Hi,

You don't give your name so I'll just reply to your post.

I think if you diluted all your " fragrant materials " to 10% you would

have some very weak materials. Let's start at the beginning...

Let's say you are wishing to make a Chypre Perfume and a Chypre Toilet

Water, The perfume would be much stronger, in other words have less

alcohol content, than a toilet water. The balance is done after you

have created your perfume and then decided upon by the amount and

strength of the alcohol.

Different alcohols will more readily accept water too. This is also an

important part in diluting the perfume, depending on the purpose; i.e.:

a perfume will have almost no water where as a toilet water or bath

splash may have a high percentage of water.

Let's take a look at a formula for a basic Chypre

Bergamot 15

Sandalwood 8

Vetiver 6

Oakmoss 5

Rose 6

Jasmin 5

Gamma Methyl Ionone 3 (Woody, Floral, Violet, Dry Woody, tobacco,

floral (orris and violet). Powdery tone. Great strength as both top and

body notes) – USE a tinctured orris root powder

Patchouli 5

Musk ketone 3 or Ambrette Seed

Clary sage 2

Neroli 2

Above you see a listing of essential oils and also a few perfume

chemicals. I choose to substitute naturals for this blend and have made

suggestions next to the actual ingredients called for in this formula.

The numbers next to the name are the proportions; for this experiment

lets say they are drops.

If you were to take each of these and dilute them down to a 10%

solution they would all still be the same, only you would no longer

have the full strength nor would you be able to control the final

product as to being a perfume, a cologne, a toilet water, etc.

It would be better to make this formula full strength and then dilute

that with the appropriate amount of alcohol and water to make your

final product.

Or another option would be to do a few different experiments. Since

Chypre is a basis for so many perfumes you could also play around with

diluting some of the EO's and leaving others at normal strength. This

would allow you to see how the different EO's blend and add to a

fragrance. When experimenting, I suggest making one " constant " , a true

replica of the formula, and keeping it separate to test against the

others.

Often times there are formulas that call for a 10% dilution of an EO

but this is just for one addition to the formula. I often use galbanum

as a top note but find it overpowers when used at full strength. So I

have a 10% solution that I will use instead. Many EO's especially

citrus have a high evaporation rate, they flash off very quickly, I

would not wish to dilute these and reduce their strength at all.

I know that it can often be confusing when you here about 10% solutions

but it really is quite easy. A 10% solution of Galbanum would be, for

me, 10 drops of Galbanum and 90 drops of alcohol. Always make sure to

label your bottles with the dilution percentage and with what you

diluted it with. Perhaps you are using Jojoba not alcohol, etc.

Labeling on your bottles is very important. I really don't think you

should dilute all your fragrant materials, do small amounts, when

called for, in separate bottles and use them as needed.

Hope this helps and at least addresses your question.

~Jo

[Guest guest]

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of raindrums111

You said:

>Will someone explain - if I dilute all my fragrant materials

>separately to say 10%, then I can make perfume with 10% strength only -

>have I got it right? Thanks for the reply.

If your goal is to make finished perfume oils (juice) at 10% dilution, you

do not want to take all the time necessary to dilute all of your essences

individually to 10%. It is much easier and less time-consuming to create

your juice at 100%, then dilute the whole down to 10%.

Mark

[Guest guest]

My understanding from what the two of you have written

is that diluting my ingredients is appropriate for

testing formulas but generally not for making the

final product. Thanks a lot for the help.

Prabha

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>

>

> My understanding from what the two of you have written

> is that diluting my ingredients is appropriate for

> testing formulas but generally not for making the

> final product. Thanks a lot for the help.

> Prabha

Hi Prabha,

Not exactly...

Some formulas require a diluted EO in the formula. In other words it

may say something like this... (This is a partial formula for

Mitsouko -Guerlain 1919) Only some top notes no heart or base is

included.

10 Sweet Orange

20 Lemon

3 Seed 10%

2 Elemi

5 Celery Seed

5 Chamomile 10%

130 Bergamot

35 Tarragon 10%

10 Coriander 10%

10 Lavender

As you can see four of the ingredients are at 10% solutions. So you

would need to make up a 10% solution of Seed, Chamomile,

Tarragon and Coriander in order to make this formula. Technically the

10% solutions can be made with Alcohol, DPG, IPM, BB, etc. All are

used in perfumery but many of these are not used in Natural Perfumes.

Diluting of EO's should only be done when you have a need for them to

be diluted or you will be wasting a lot of product. When you are

testing formulas you do not dilute them to see if they will work or

you will never be able to achieve a correct formula.

Make your formula as per your source. Then after it is made you will

dilute the " stock or concentrate " perfume in alcohol to achieve the

desired outcome of a perfume or a cologne, etc.

You also should keep in mind that the 10% solutions, when cut with

alcohol, will also need to be considered when figuring out the final

percentage of alcohol being added to make a perfume. Too much alcohol

will dilute the product too much. Any EO that you have cut or diluted

will need to be added to the total of alcohol in the final

preparation.

If you are making this formula and you have used alcohol to cut the

10% solutions you will need to figure out the percentage of alcohol

already being used. This is one really great reason to work in grams

not drops. It is much easier to figure out that you are using X

amount of grams of alcohol as to X amount of drop of alcohol,

especially when you are working a formula inside another formula

which is the case shown above.

I know this can be confusing but you need to really look at this

information that we are giving you and keep asking questions until

you get this right. If you do not figure this out you risk the

possibility of loosing precious EO's and loosing a lot of money in

the process.

~Jo

[Guest guest]

My understanding from what the two of you have written

is that diluting my ingredients is appropriate for

testing formulas but generally not for making the

final product. Thanks a lot for the help.

Prabha

Hi Prabha,

When I was new to perfumery, I used dilutions for almost all of my blending.

I had three reasons for doing so: 1) to conserve precious oils and

absolutes, 2) to better enable me to determine how the final product would

smell as I blended, and 3) to help me to learn how all my raw materials

smelled at various dilution levels. As I gained experience, I got better at

judging the smell of the final, diluted product even when blending with

undiluted ingredients and better at knowing how all of my materials smelled

at each dilution level. And, as my supply of raw materials grew, I found

less need for such careful conserving.

To this day, though, I still maintain dilutions of a number of very powerful

materials that I tend to use in small amounts in any given blend. For

example, I maintain dilutions (mostly 10%, but some as low as 1%) of

galbanum oil, patchouli oil, rose oil, ginger oil, clove bud oil, etc. The

reason I continue to use dilutions of powerful materials is to limit the

need to create large quantities of test blends. For example, consider the

following, simple formula:

40 parts (drops, mls, ounces, pounds, gallons.whatever) Bergamot oil

10 parts Rosewood oil

10 parts Rose absolute, Bulgaria

10 parts Jasmin g. absolute, India

20 parts Rose geranium oil

10 parts Ylang ylang, extra

20 parts Sandalwood oil, EI

10 parts Vetiver oil, Sri Lanka

1 part Patchouli oil

If I make this blend with undiluted patchouli, I must use the listed number

of parts for each of the other ingredients. If I use a 10% dilution of

patchouli, everything in the formula stays the same, except that the line

for Patchouli now reads: 10 parts Patchouli oil (10%). But, since all of

the ingredients are now divisible by 10, I can produce this exact same blend

by using one tenth the amount of each ingredient. This cuts down on a lot

of wasted expensive oils and absolutes.

I hope this gives you some more to think about.

Steve Earl

Glen Custom Perfumery

[Guest guest]

I am wondering: if your recipe calls for 10 drops of a 10% solution, couldn't

you just use 1 drop of the ingredient neat?

Ellen

Ellen

Aroma de Terra

Aromatherapy, Personal Fragrance and Easy Skin Care

(216) 663-8831

[Guest guest]

I am wondering: if your recipe calls for 10 drops of a 10% solution,

couldn't you just use 1 drop of the ingredient neat?

Ellen

Ellen

Aroma de Terra

Aromatherapy, Personal Fragrance and Easy Skin Care

(216) 663-8831

Hi Ellen,

Absolutely! In fact, the 10 drops of the 10% solution was simply taken from

the original recipe which called for one drop neat. The difference is that

if you use just 1 drop (rather than 10 drops) of the 10% solution, you can

reduce the amount of all the other ingredients by 90%...a big savings in

materials. You could get smaller savings by using, say, 5 drops of the 10%

solution, and cutting all the other materials in half. By the way, although

I we are discussing drops, it has been my experience that it is far better

to use weight than volume. Precise balances that weigh down to 0.01 gram

are quite inexpensive and easy to learn to use. For a bit more money, you

can get a scale that gives digital readouts. The problem with volume is

that all drops are by no means equal, even if you use identical droppers.

And, lots of materials.the gunky ones and the solid ones...cannot be

measured in drops at all.

Steve Earl

Glen Custom Perfumery

[Guest guest]

>

> I am wondering: if your recipe calls for 10 drops of a 10% solution,

couldn't you just use 1 drop of the ingredient neat?

>

> Ellen

>

Hi Ellen,

Yes you could do this as that would be exact, but if it only called for

9 drops you would still have to have the dilution. For the sake of ease

and following a formula I make all my dillutions in advance and then

work down the list. This way I don't have to remember what I have

changed; although you could just change the formula.

~Jo