Re: Tincturing Perilla and Szechuan Pepper

[Guest guest]

Ayala Sender <ayala@...> wrote: I feel like a new beginning, with

my studio taking on a new shape I

feel inspired to do things I haven't really done before. Such as...

tincturing!

I am known for my staying away from tincturing. While I am not so

worried about tincturing materials such as resins, gums and dried

spices and aromatics, I am almost scared of tincturing fresh aromas.

The sight of the dead leaves or flowers after their essences has been

taken from them brutally by the alcohol makes me downright queasy...

So, I am now eager to do some tincturing, of Szechuan peppers, as well

as fresh green perilla (shiso) leaves.

My question is this:

Is it possible that I have been leaving the leaves/flowers for too

long in the alcohol before, and therefore receiving less than pleasant

results?

Tincturing experts - I need your help, please...

Thank you!

Ayala Sender, Perfumer

Ayala Moriel Parfums

http://www.AyalaMoriel.com/

My SmellyBlog: http://SmellyBlog.com/

I really agree with you Ayala. I also have a hard time taking my lovely

blossoms off the plants and putting them in alcohol. I enjoy them so much in my

yard, it gives me an excuse to go outside. I am, however, trying to toughen

myself up to do some osmanthus now that I finally have some blooms.

Is night or morning the best time for this?

Thanks -

Elise

http://www.tambela.com

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Anya, Zz, and all the other tincturing experts -

How long do you recommend tincturing leaves for?

I had very disappointing experience with tincturing sage, the stuff

just smelled rotten, nothing like the fresh sage or the oil... It was

pure witch brew.

The same with wild flowers from the broom family. It was horror! The

alcohol must have killed the beautiful essences and showed off only

all the other materials in the flowers. That was my impression, anyhow.

Is there a rough " ballpark " of how much material should be put in for

tincturing?

And for how long the stuff should be let sit for?

When is it recommended to add any new material and get rid of the old one?

Thanks!

Ayala

[Guest guest]

>

> Anya, Zz, and all the other tincturing experts -

> How long do you recommend tincturing leaves for?

> I had very disappointing experience with tincturing sage, the stuff

> just smelled rotten, nothing like the fresh sage or the oil... It was

> pure witch brew.

> The same with wild flowers from the broom family. It was horror! The

> alcohol must have killed the beautiful essences and showed off only

> all the other materials in the flowers. That was my impression, anyhow.

>

> Is there a rough " ballpark " of how much material should be put in for

> tincturing?

> And for how long the stuff should be let sit for?

> When is it recommended to add any new material and get rid of the

old one?

>

> Thanks!

>

> Ayala

>

Are you tincturing fresh or dried. Fresh in most cases should be

changed out daily or every other day. Also a good idea to let the

fresh dry out a couple of days before tincturing.

I don't tincture Sage, but should I have lots of it in my garden. I

know that dried Sage has a short shelf life. So freshness in a dried

Sage should be the first priority.

I have made tinctures from both perfumers alcohol, denatured and

organic grain alcohol. The organic grain alcohol renders a much

superior tincture. I am not a chemist, so can't tell you the technical

reasons why this may be. The difference between a vanilla tincture

done in denatured alcohol and one done in organic alcohol are like

night and day. The organic is richer and sweeter, with no residual

scent of alcohol.

Last summer I started tincturing violet leaves from the garden,

Letting them dry out a bit for a couple of days before adding to the

alcohol. I also tincture completely dried violet leaves. The results

are almost the same, with the fresher ones rendering a slightly better

essence.

Anytime I have had a bad result, it has usually been with fresh plant

material that I left in the alcohol too long. It is also not a good

idea to agitate it too much. No over stirring or shaking of the jar.

Just let it sit. When it is time to strain it do not squeeze the

plant material to get the last drops of alcohol out. Just strain and

discard the plants.

Some things do tincture better than others. Just try a bit for

starters and if successful do a larger portion. I usually work in the

area of 1/3 materials to 2/3 alcohol.

I also like to make and keep tinctures in a cool dark place. Heat

works fine for Enfleurage and alcohol washing. but for tinctures I

have always found that cool is better.

Z...

Zz's Petals, Parfume Moderne

http://www.zzspetals.com

[Guest guest]

At 06:26 PM 11/25/2006, you wrote:

>So, I am now eager to do some tincturing, of Szechuan peppers, as well

>as fresh green perilla (shiso) leaves.

>

>My question is this:

>Is it possible that I have been leaving the leaves/flowers for too

>long in the alcohol before, and therefore receiving less than pleasant

>results?

>Tincturing experts - I need your help, please...

Hi Ayala:

about the perilla leaves, or any other green matter you may tincture.

It's always good to let the fresh leaves dry for a few days to get

rid of excess water. Tincture them and look for them to really look

wilted and flabby. Each different plant will be on a different time

frame with this. Don't stir or mash them while tincturing, maybe just

gently swirl the bottle once a day. Strain gently, don't mash the spent leaves.

About the Szechuan peppers, don't understand why you're tincturing

hot peppers. The capsaicin will come across into the alcohol very

quickly, and cause perhaps severe skin irritation. In the past, NPers

have written about tincturing mild Balinese Long Peppers, which have

a nice scent. Don't think there would be a problem with a mild

pepper, like an ancho and such, but Szechuan are a big no-no.

Anya McCoy

Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com

Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org

Natural Perfumers Chat Group

/

[Guest guest]

At 12:10 AM 11/27/2006, you wrote:

>Anya, Zz, and all the other tincturing experts -

>How long do you recommend tincturing leaves for?

>I had very disappointing experience with tincturing sage, the stuff

>just smelled rotten, nothing like the fresh sage or the oil... It was

>pure witch brew.

That shouldn't have happened, but sage oil is so cheap, I'm not sure

why you experimented. Also, sage can be neurotoxic (the thujone) and

I'm not sure if tincturing would really extract a lot of that stuff.

Aromatherapists never use the EO for that reason, but of course they

apply oils over a larger surface than NPers. Where in the heck is

?!

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1213265

http://eethomp.com/AT/dangerous_oils.html

>Is there a rough " ballpark " of how much material should be put in for

>tincturing?

>And for how long the stuff should be let sit for?

>When is it recommended to add any new material and get rid of the old one?

The ballpark could be analagous to the strength/intensity of EOs and

absolutes as we know them. Different strengths, = different

concentrations in the alcohol. Experience and observation will be

called into play. Staying away from hot peppers and

thujone-containing stuff would be a start, lol. There are a lot of

dangerous aspects to botanicals, Ayala, and it might be better if you

ask here first before experimenting. Some of them can be very dangerous.

Answered you last two questions a few posts ago -- or maybe I

answered the same ones from Poh-Yee. Have you checked out the

Tincturing and Infusing FAQ in the Files section? Bare bones, I know,

needs updating.

Anya McCoy

Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com

Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org

Natural Perfumers Chat Group

/

[Guest guest]

Anya <mccoy@...> wrote:

Staying away from hot peppers and

thujone-containing stuff would be a start, lol.

I believe a hot pepper tincture would be very painful on the skin. I am

extremely sensitive to the oils in hot peppers and must wear latex gloves when I

cut them for use in cooking or my skin will burn for hours! Oddly enough, I

love to eat them and have no problems with them at all.

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[Guest guest]

> Are you tincturing fresh or dried. Fresh in most cases should be

> changed out daily or every other day. Also a good idea to let the

> fresh dry out a couple of days before tincturing.

A-HA!

> I don't tincture Sage, but should I have lots of it in my garden. I

> know that dried Sage has a short shelf life. So freshness in a dried

> Sage should be the first priority.

As for the sage - my brother made it, when we were trying to tincture

the broom-like flowers in the spring, he decided to expriement with

sage. It was a waste of alcohol No point tincturing something that

has a much better result as an oil and is not even expensive...

> I have made tinctures from both perfumers alcohol, denatured and

> organic grain alcohol. The organic grain alcohol renders a much

> superior tincture. I am not a chemist, so can't tell you the technical

> reasons why this may be. The difference between a vanilla tincture

> done in denatured alcohol and one done in organic alcohol are like

> night and day. The organic is richer and sweeter, with no residual

> scent of alcohol.

I am about to infuse some vanilla beans in jojoba oil and virgin

coconut oil: I got really plump nice beans that just ask to be

tortured, and I am going to see what's going to come out of this.

How many beans would you use for that?

I will also try some in my grain alcohol. Not organic, but surely

better than denatured.

> Anytime I have had a bad result, it has usually been with fresh plant

> material that I left in the alcohol too long. It is also not a good

> idea to agitate it too much. No over stirring or shaking of the jar.

> Just let it sit. When it is time to strain it do not squeeze the

> plant material to get the last drops of alcohol out. Just strain and

> discard the plants.

That explains A LOT OF THINGS. Particularly why most of my tinctures

were like witch brews. I left the flowers in for too long. And instead

of straining them I just added more... When it comes to tincturing I

am a complete novice.

> I usually work in the

> area of 1/3 materials to 2/3 alcohol.

> I also like to make and keep tinctures in a cool dark place. Heat

> works fine for Enfleurage and alcohol washing. but for tinctures I

> have always found that cool is better.

> Z...

> Zz's Petals, Parfume Moderne

> http://www.zzspetals.com

Would you use a similar proportion for vanilla beans as well? That

will require an enourmous amount of beans!

Thank you Zz,

This is exactly what I needed to know. And hopefully with some

positive experience I will get into tincturing too... I guess I should

dry the perilla leaves first. I tried a really small batch, and it

looked fabulously green but stunk. I will try to get some more and dry

them first, but I won't be suprised if I will be sourcing out the oil

instead soon...

Thanks!

Ayala

[Guest guest]

> Hi Ayala:

>

> about the perilla leaves, or any other green matter you may tincture.

> It's always good to let the fresh leaves dry for a few days to get

> rid of excess water. Tincture them and look for them to really look

> wilted and flabby. Each different plant will be on a different time

> frame with this. Don't stir or mash them while tincturing, maybe just

> gently swirl the bottle once a day. Strain gently, don't mash the

spent leaves.

So, do you want them to get completely wilted and " dead looking " or do

you need to strain before they turn that way. How much is too much?

> About the Szechuan peppers, don't understand why you're tincturing

> hot peppers. The capsaicin will come across into the alcohol very

> quickly, and cause perhaps severe skin irritation. In the past, NPers

> have written about tincturing mild Balinese Long Peppers, which have

> a nice scent. Don't think there would be a problem with a mild

> pepper, like an ancho and such, but Szechuan are a big no-no.

I am not sure we are talking about the same peppers! These are less

hot than black pepper! They are slightly minty, less spicy than many

other spices such as cloves and cinnamon. They are round and brown.

They are more similar in shape to pink peppers and allspice than they

are to cayenne or chili peppers.

Can you please clarify?

Thanks for all the tips!

Ayala

[Guest guest]

>

> >

Ayala,

Vanilla Beans. I have two different (everyday) formulas. One which

also includes Benzoin, is 15 Vanilla Beans to 1/2 gallon of

alcohol)10ml Benzoin). With this formula I keep two aging while I have

two more that I work with. I age them for at least 6 months.

With Vanilla it is ok to shake the jars to swish it around a bit.

I scrape the insides of the beans into the alcohol and also mince the

rest. I add everything to the jar.

My most concentrated vanilla tincture is 20 beans to 500 ml (or 16oz

jar). I use this for adding vanilla as a note ( I like high quality

Mexican beans best for this tincture).

I use the first tincture, for vanilla alcohol as a carrier, I use

Bourbon/Madagasgar Beans for this (more of an all purpose bean).

Best, Z

Zz's Petals Parfume Moderne

http://www.zzspetals.com

[Guest guest]

At 08:50 PM 11/29/2006, you wrote:

>So, do you want them to get completely wilted and " dead looking " or do

>you need to strain before they turn that way. How much is too much?

HI A

I would say slightly wilted, and not dead looking. You have to

experiment and see what feels right to you. You will be able to tell

when they've given up their goods, it's intuitive, and you're intuitive.

>

> > About the Szechuan peppers, don't understand why you're tincturing

> > hot peppers. The capsaicin will come across into the alcohol very

> > quickly, and cause perhaps severe skin irritation. In the past, NPers

> > have written about tincturing mild Balinese Long Peppers, which have

> > a nice scent. Don't think there would be a problem with a mild

> > pepper, like an ancho and such, but Szechuan are a big no-no.

>

>I am not sure we are talking about the same peppers! These are less

>hot than black pepper! They are slightly minty, less spicy than many

>other spices such as cloves and cinnamon. They are round and brown.

>They are more similar in shape to pink peppers and allspice than they

>are to cayenne or chili peppers.

When Szechuan peppers (yes, they match your description, I'm very

familiar with them) were first introduced to the American market in

the 70's, they were the first " hot " Chinese peppers folks were

exposed to. Asking for mild, medium, or hot strength was necessary

in the restaurants. The heat comes from the concentration, I suppose.

If you are just stir-frying or sprinkling the amount on your food

equivalent to black pepper, then yes, I'm sure the kick you're

getting is quite light. Try quadrupling or more -- yowza. I'm sure

the alcohol would draw the capsacin out very well, insuring a good

skin burn. That's my intuition about it, but you'll have to

experiment. Have some ice cubes nearby when you test it on yourself ;-)

Anya McCoy

Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com

Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org

Natural Perfumers Chat Group

/

[Guest guest]

>

> When Szechuan peppers (yes, they match your description, I'm very

> familiar with them) were first introduced to the American market in

> the 70's, they were the first " hot " Chinese peppers folks were

> exposed to. Asking for mild, medium, or hot strength was necessary

> in the restaurants. The heat comes from the concentration, I suppose.

> If you are just stir-frying or sprinkling the amount on your food

> equivalent to black pepper, then yes, I'm sure the kick you're

> getting is quite light. Try quadrupling or more -- yowza. I'm sure

> the alcohol would draw the capsacin out very well, insuring a good

> skin burn. That's my intuition about it, ...

Actually, Anya, Szechuan peppercorns (Zanthoxylum piperitum) are not

true peppercorns at all and have no capsaicin in them whatsoever.

Rather, they have a distinctive piney taste that is unusual and more

savory than spicey, getting their tanginess from piperine rather than

capsaicin. Piperine has much more potent olfactory power than red

peppers, and gives white peppercorns their distinctive smell at

relatively low concentrations.

http://www.freshpatents.com/Production-of-cis-pellitorin-and-use-as-a-

flavouring-dt20051020ptan20050234132.php?type=description

[Guest guest]

At 12:58 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote:

>

> >

> > When Szechuan peppers (yes, they match your description, I'm very

> > familiar with them) were first introduced to the American market in

> > the 70's, they were the first " hot " Chinese peppers folks were

> > exposed to. Asking for mild, medium, or hot strength was necessary

> > in the restaurants. The heat comes from the concentration

>

>Actually, Anya, Szechuan peppercorns (Zanthoxylum piperitum) are not

>true peppercorns at all and have no capsaicin in them whatsoever.

>Rather, they have a distinctive piney taste that is unusual and more

>savory than spicey, getting their tanginess from piperine rather than

>capsaicin. Piperine has much more potent olfactory power than red

>peppers, and gives white peppercorns their distinctive smell at

>relatively low concentrations.

Aha! Thanks for the catch, Jimmy. Just as pink peppercorns aren't

true pepper Piper sp., they're Schinus. However, do you agree that

it is the concentration that matters, and that they can still pack a

burning whallop? I know they do in the mouth when eaten.

Fixed your long, unclickable URL by going to http://tinyurl.com and

got this: http://tinyurl.com/yhuy25

It does speak of the heat-generating properties.

Anya McCoy

Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com

Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org

Natural Perfumers Chat Group

/