Guest guest Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 edited to correct topposting: > > Any info appreciated as to your experience with them, sources, etc. > > > Anya I've heard of terpene-less EO, but I can't imagine how they would smell since most of the 'natural' smell in lavender (linalool), bergamot and orange (limonene), eucalyptus and spearmint (phellandrene), pine and eucalyptus (pinene), black pepper and cardamom (sabinene)comes from their terpenes. It would seem to me that to make them terpene-less is to throw the 'natural' out the window and create a chemical from scratch. Ie, if you look at the chemical breakdowns (from mass spectroscopy) for most EO's, you'll see things like a-pinene, b-pinene, d-limonen, camphene as major components... by 'removing them', you are simply buying a FO. Terpenes, because they're based on the isoprene molecules are decomposed by heat, light and oxygen, which is what causes rancidity in EO, their removal might enhance longevity indefinitely... at the expense of turning it into something very unnatural. At least that's what I would think. I'm no expert on the subject, but I know a bit about their chemistry (am anal about getting 'real' EO if I'm paying for real EO). That said, I know a lot of people buy bergapene free bergamot because it has such a strong tendency to cause phytotoxicity. And they smell pretty good (I bought a few lbs from FPI last year for soap). But if authenticity and naturalness is really important... I would not use a terpeneless EO. If it doesn't matter, then I'd just use an FO to begin with. It's ironic, but a lot of FO are made with real EOs (sandalwood in some cases), because they can't get those elusive scent components without the real thing. While you see the real thing often adulterated with chemicals (like the 90% more french lavender EO sold in the US every year, than grown in all of France phenomenon). I've not smelled the other terpeneless EO to compare. I know when IFRA put the ban on Clove oils in FO use due to the methyleugenol content (I believe they withdrew this after the entire industry screamed, haven't heard about it again), there was no way to make clove blends smell right because there was no substitute for the real thing that was even close. So I'd think that removing such key components would really distort the scent anyway. That said, I'd be really curious to know how a terpeneless eucalyptus smelled:P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 > > > Anya > > > >It would seem to me that to make them terpene-less is to throw > >the 'natural' out the window and create a chemical from scratch. Ie, if > >you look at the chemical breakdowns (from mass spectroscopy) for most > >EO's, you'll see things like a-pinene, b-pinene, d-limonen, camphene as > >major components... by 'removing them', you are simply buying a FO. > > Hi Helenae: > > I think you got it all wrong about terpeneless EOs. They've merely > been distilled in such a way as to well, remove the terpenes. An FO > is a synthetic construct, usually made from petrochemicals. Two very > different products. > > We perfumers are more liberal in our products than aromatherapists, > and I feel that by reading your take on this, that you may come from > an AT background. AT-ers require that the EO be untouched, just a > straight distillation. Perfumers can be a little more liberal in our > sourcing, as we are not going for the therapeutic effect. > > The method is called fractional distillation. Do you use fractionated > coconut oil? Same sort of thing, as I believe the coconut oil is > distilled to remove the long fatty chains, and the concept is the > same - remove something that can be problematic, in the frac. coconut > oil you want to provide long shelf life. With the terpeneless EOs, > you want to avoid milky solutions. Here's a page that explains > http://www.herbdatanz.com/volatile_oils_1.htm for volatile oils > > >Terpenes, because they're based on the isoprene molecules are > >decomposed by heat, light and oxygen, which is what causes rancidity in > >EO, their removal might enhance longevity indefinitely... at the > >expense of turning it into something very unnatural. At least that's > >what I would think. I'm no expert on the subject, but I know a bit > >about their chemistry (am anal about getting 'real' EO if I'm paying > >for real EO). > > No, it's not the longevity, it's the avoidance of turning hte blend > milky. Not sure how terpenes do that, but perfumery has, for a long > time, advocated terpeneless EOs. I have never used them, so my > question here on the group. > For me there is a black-and-white distinction between natural and synthetic, but there are also gradations within each category. Are terpeneless oils less natural than distilled oils? Maybe yes, but they are a very long way from being in the synthetic camp. Are terpeneless oils any less natural than solvent-extracted absolutes? Probably not - both methods produce an " oil " that is low in terpenes. Whatever process is used - distillation, fractional distillation, cold-pressing, solvent extraction, CO2 extraction etc., very different ratios of the same molecules are produced from the same plant material. The degree of naturalness we ascribe to them is largely a matter of opinion. One reason for minimising the total monoterpene " load " is indeed to enhance longevity, in the sense that monoterpenes tend to readily oxidize. Terpene oxidation always leads to a reduction in odour strength and quality, and a reduction of therapeutic potency. The use of (natural or synthetic) antioxidants will slow the onset of this process, but not prevent it completely. Also, the oils used need to be seriously fresh/unoxidised when the antioxidant is added. Another reason is that the oxidation of monoterpenes - and we're mainly talking about limonene, alpha-pinene and delta-3-carene - produces breakdown chemicals, such as limonene 1,2-oxide, that are skin sensitizers. Therefore, minimising monoterpenes, which of course is exactly what deterpenation does, results in an oil that carries less risk of skin reactions. Terpeneless oils can be expensive - the more terpenes and sesquiterpenes that are removed, the more the oil will cost. Removing the furocoumarins from bergamot oil is a similar process, and the resulting oil does not cost a great deal more than regular bergamot oil. However, it is possible to pay over $1,000 for a sesquiterpeneless grapefruit oil. Tisserand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 > Hi Helenae: > > I think you got it all wrong about terpeneless EOs. They've merely > been distilled in such a way as to well, remove the terpenes. An FO > is a synthetic construct, usually made from petrochemicals. Two very > different products. > > We perfumers are more liberal in our products than aromatherapists, > and I feel that by reading your take on this, that you may come from > an AT background. AT-ers require that the EO be untouched, just a > straight distillation. Perfumers can be a little more liberal in our > sourcing, as we are not going for the therapeutic effect. Thanks for the response Anya. I am still learning about the creation part of perfumery, and the components. I do use some FO, as well as EO, but I tend to draw the distinction tightly. That is, if I use EO, except for bergamot, I want pure EO, while FO are a different category (which I do use to substitute for sensitizing/phytotoxic/toxic EO). Perhaps more out of worry of EO adulteration than any other reason; I don't want to pay big bucks for something that is fake but called 'terpless' to account for any scent difference. This may be because of my naivety rather than reality. I'm not a perfumer, I aspire to becoming a better formulator just for myself. In truth, I'm in awe of perfumers, thus, I'm here learning. > The method is called fractional distillation. Do you use fractionated > coconut oil? Same sort of thing, as I believe the coconut oil is > distilled to remove the long fatty chains, and the concept is the > same - remove something that can be problematic, in the frac. coconut > oil you want to provide long shelf life. With the terpeneless EOs, > you want to avoid milky solutions. Here's a page that explains > http://www.herbdatanz.com/volatile_oils_1.htm for volatile oils I see your point about fractionated coconut. I still can't see how you can remove the terpenes from primarily terpene scents, and maintain their original scent value... something not required of coconut oil. In bergapene free Bergamot, it smells great... but is not EXACTLY like bergamot. There's something missing, at least to my nose. I don't know what the other terpene-free EO's smell like. That could be the entire issue, not many people have broken this ground. >Maybe > nobody uses terpeneless oils? That is interesting. Well, I haven't seen them offered for sale besides bergamot, so maybe no one uses them because they are not widely available...or where they are, people have a trust issue as I do, simply out of ignorance? > You seem to have quite a knowledge of chemistry, and I saw by your > application you're a soaper, so please feel free to introduce > yourself to the group, I'm sure we'd love to pick your brain on chems > and soaping. I'm a chicken soaper, which no, doesn't mean I've soaped > with schmaltz (!) LOL, I'm just afraid of the lye, tracing, > coordination, etc. I'd probably blow up the place, or wind up with > gooey slimey junk! But boy, do I love the great soaps produced by > group members! Great stuff. Pick away about the soaping, I feel pretty confident about every aspect of that. I even have a small 'how to' on the net for making hot processed soaps in the kitchen: http://www.zensoaps.com/hpsoap.htm It is foolproof, and a lot of fun:). Anya, if you can formulate perfume, which requires both a sense of the artistic and an organized mind, you will love soaping too. Yes, the lye is dangerous, but no more dangerous than spilling a sensitizing EO concentrate all over yourself. You're making soap at a sink afterall and you can get the lye off FAST (you should be MIXING the lye in the sink to begin with), and you should always work with goggles to protect the eyes. Beyond that, I can conclusively tell you that it is far more challenging and nervewracking to blend drop after drop of outrageously expensive absolutes and ottos to end up with a stinky product that even your pet runs from...than to mess up a small batch of oils in soap:P. What you do takes a lot more courage and risk from my perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 [sNIPPED BY MOD TO SAVE BANDWIDTH] > Terpeneless oils can be expensive - the more terpenes and sesquiterpenes that are > removed, the more the oil will cost. Removing the furocoumarins from bergamot oil is a > similar process, and the resulting oil does not cost a great deal more than regular > bergamot oil. However, it is possible to pay over $1,000 for a sesquiterpeneless grapefruit > oil. > > Tisserand (if I may call you that), I have one of your books on my desk, and am in total awe of you. Sorry, just had to say that:P. Who does this terpene removal process and sells the product commercially, I've never seen them for sale other than the bf bergamot? It seems to me that only home distillers can undergo this process, because commercial distillers simply wouldn't have the time to do it. If they are prohibitively expensive, and hard to locate, then lack of availability would mean lack of use. Who would pay $1,000 for grapefruit? Speaking of grapefruit... I don't know if you guys know of them, but one of the main distillers for orange and grapefruit owns a distillery in Florida, you may find it cheaper to buy from the source (citrus growers). EO are a byproduct of their orange/grapefruit juicing, most juice fruit is grown here in Florida, and the peels are discarded, and used in EO production: http://www.rctreatt.com/ One of Treatt USA's top guys is Mann, he's a sweetheart and helped me do GS analysis on a few EO suppliers a few years ago free to see if they sold adulterated EO (ok, I'm paranoid about fake EO). They broker other EO's as well because they own worldwide distilleries. The only problem is prices are like the stock market, the prices go up and down sometimes minutely. I do not order in their typical kg quantities, but I know some of you guys do, so you may find him a valuable resource and a personal contact. And maybe he'll make anyone interested sesquiterpeneless grapefruit for less (since grapefruit peels don't cost them much from juice production). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 At 06:07 PM 1/1/2007, you wrote: > > We perfumers are more liberal in our products than aromatherapists, > > and I feel that by reading your take on this, that you may come >from > > an AT background. AT-ers require that the EO be untouched, just a > > straight distillation. Perfumers can be a little more liberal in >our > > sourcing, as we are not going for the therapeutic effect. > >Thanks for the response Anya. >I am still learning about the creation part of perfumery, and the >components. I do use some FO, as well as EO, but I tend to draw the >distinction tightly. That is, if I use EO, except for bergamot, I >want pure EO, while FO are a different category (which I do use to >substitute for sensitizing/phytotoxic/toxic EO). Perhaps more out of >worry of EO adulteration than any other reason; I don't want to pay >big bucks for something that is fake but called 'terpless' to account >for any scent difference. This may be because of my naivety rather >than reality. IMHO, an adulterated EO (and don't let anybody here fool themselves, you have used an adulterated EO because the industry is rife with trickery) is better any day than any FO ever created. An EO comes from nature: an FO comes from a test tube and is probably patented by a big company. Perhaps a tiny bit of EO is in there to legitimaze the scent a bit, but it's still petro. An adulterated EO probably has some linalool or other natural chem, or in the case of rose, rose geranium to boost it. Terpeneless does not mean fake, by any stretch. FO means fake, nitro musk means fake, and the producers and end users know this, and accept it. > > The method is called fractional distillation. Do you use >fractionated > > coconut oil? Same sort of thing, as I believe the coconut oil is > > distilled to remove the long fatty chains, and the concept is the > > same - remove something that can be problematic, in the frac. >coconut > > oil you want to provide long shelf life. With the terpeneless EOs, > > you want to avoid milky solutions. Here's a page that explains > > http://www.herbdatanz.com/volatile_oils_1.htm for volatile oils > >I see your point about fractionated coconut. I still can't see how >you can remove the terpenes from primarily terpene scents, and >maintain their original scent value... something not required of >coconut oil. No, that's not correct. I have virgin organic coconut oil and it has a luscious scent, like coconut freshly cracked. The frac. coconut has no scent. Both have different applications. Besides, I probably used a bad example, comparing volatile to fixed oils. >In bergapene free Bergamot, it smells great... but is not EXACTLY >like bergamot. There's something missing, at least to my nose. I >don't know what the other terpene-free EO's smell like. That could be >the entire issue, not many people have broken this ground. Well, perhaps we can hold off on slamming the terpeneless EOs until we smell them. > >Maybe > > nobody uses terpeneless oils? That is interesting. > >Well, I haven't seen them offered for sale besides bergamot, so maybe >no one uses them because they are not widely available...or where >they are, people have a trust issue as I do, simply out of ignorance? They are used in the perfumery industry to the exemption of regular EOs. It's the milkiness issue, as I stated before. Therefore, I don't think the scent is much different, but the end result is clear perfume. I have never had an issue with milkiness, but many have, especially with citrus-based room sprays, as is written in the archives. >Anya, if you can formulate perfume, which requires both a sense of >the artistic and an organized mind, you will love soaping too. Yes, >the lye is dangerous, but no more dangerous than spilling a >sensitizing EO concentrate all over yourself. You're making soap at a >sink afterall and you can get the lye off FAST (you should be MIXING >the lye in the sink to begin with), and you should always work with >goggles to protect the eyes. Well, we're going to have to disagree on this, too. Lye burns immediately, and forms quite a scar, from what I've heard. No EO I know does that. >Beyond that, I can conclusively tell you that it is far more >challenging and nervewracking to blend drop after drop of >outrageously expensive absolutes and ottos to end up with a stinky >product that even your pet runs from...than to mess up a small batch >of oils in soap:P. What you do takes a lot more courage and risk from >my perspective. You might want to look in the past week or so's archives about 10% blending, it can save a lot of money. I also suggest you get a good book like Mandy Aftel's Essence and Alchemy, and if you can afford it, her workbook. She takes you through proven blends that smell good, and there's no sense in mucking about from intuition or what you think might work. Perfumery is an art, but like painting, there are basic rules and procedures, and if you don't know them you may just keep making stinky blends. Took me years of self-discipline and study before I stopped making stinky blends, and I still mess up an accord sometimes, but that's much less stressful, and usually done when I'm getting too frisky with a new, un-evaluated essence. Well, I guess the terpeneless chat is done because nobody with any experience has chimed in with their experiences in perfumery using the stuff. I'm going to order some and play around and I'll report back. Anya McCoy Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org Natural Perfumers Community Group / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 > Well, we're going to have to disagree on this, too. Lye burns > immediately, and forms quite a scar, from what I've heard. No EO I > know does that. Lye burns are overrated. I've managed to pour pure lye all over my hands before. You just rinse a long time. Unlike pure acids, alkalines are dangerous because they are slower to begin damage, but the damage is insidious and continuous. Hold under running water for a while, douse with vinegar, stick back under running water, douse with more vinegar, go back to what you were doing, keeping an eye out for continuing skin breakdown, in which case you repeat. I keep a strong vinegar blended lotion on my counter in case of splash, to use after the rinse and douse routine. The real danger is to play with lye away from running water, or to ignore a drop on the skin. Pain will let you know you have to do something however. The easiest way to avoid burns is to wear rubber gloves, that's it. The most deadly thing is getting a splash in your eye. There's photos on the net of blindness caused by lye, they are horrifying. The solution is simply to wear goggles. You literally work with raw lye for a few minutes, the window of exposure is actually very small. In either case, making soap isn't for everyone, it can be very dangerous indeed. But for us crazy people, it's fun:). > I also suggest you get a good > book like Mandy Aftel's Essence and Alchemy, and if you can afford > it, her workbook. She takes you through proven blends that smell > good, and there's no sense in mucking about from intuition or what > you think might work. Perfumery is an art, but like painting, there > are basic rules and procedures, and if you don't know them you may > just keep making stinky blends. Took me years of self-discipline and > study before I stopped making stinky blends, and I still mess up an > accord sometimes, but that's much less stressful, and usually done > when I'm getting too frisky with a new, un-evaluated essence. Thanks for the advice, I may just do that. I also appreciate your responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 > > [sNIPPED BY MOD TO SAVE BANDWIDTH] > > Terpeneless oils can be expensive - the more terpenes and > sesquiterpenes that are > > removed, the more the oil will cost. Removing the furocoumarins > from bergamot oil is a > > similar process, and the resulting oil does not cost a great deal > more than regular > > bergamot oil. However, it is possible to pay over $1,000 for a > sesquiterpeneless grapefruit > > oil. > > > > Tisserand > > (if I may call you that), I have one of your books on my desk, > and am in total awe of you. Sorry, just had to say that:P. > Thanks P, made my day! > Who does this terpene removal process and sells the product > commercially, I've never seen them for sale other than the bf > bergamot? It seems to me that only home distillers can undergo this > process, because commercial distillers simply wouldn't have the time > to do it. If they are prohibitively expensive, and hard to locate, > then lack of availability would mean lack of use. Who would pay > $1,000 for grapefruit? > I guess I had kind of forgotten that terpeneless oils are not widely available - at least not in small quantities. They are produced by mid-size to large commercial operations for use in both fragrances and flavours. One of the best-known in the US is Citrus & Allied. Their smallest pack size is 500 g, and they don't publish a price list. You have to register on their site, and if they like what they see they will send free samples. http:// citrusandallied.com. If there was more of a demand for deterpenated oils people like Liberty Natural and Eden Botanicals might stock some. The most commonly-used, and I think the most impressive, are the citrus oils, but there are also deterpenated oils of lavender, juniper, galbanum, pine and others. Terpeneless oils are really worth investigating from a fragrance standpoint, and I have given quite the wrong impression about price. They are certainly more expensive than the regular oils, but most are $100 - $300 per kg. Much depends on the degree of deterpenation. A " 2-fold " lemon oil will still consist of about 35% limonene (instead of the usual 70%) but a 10-fold lemon oil will have only about 10% limonene. As the degree of deterpenation increases, so the oils smell more intense, and less like the regular oils, but still very characteristic of the fruit. The high cost is in the fractional distillation, not the raw material. The other constituents in these oils are proportionately greater, so a highly deterpenated grapefruit is quite rich in nootkatone - a much sought-after fragrance and flavour constituent. Other deterpenated citrus oils show increases in fatty aldehydes such as octanal and decanal. These are powerful citrus odour notes (limonene is a sharp top note, but in some ways not a powerful odour) and most deterpenated oils have an amazing strength. Highly deterpenated oils are perhaps closer to middle than top notes. I got interested in terpeneless oils very early in my aromatherapy career, because Gattefosse (who coined the term " aromatherapy " in about 1936) talks about them in his book, and Maury says in hers (1964) that terpenes have to be removed before aromatherapy use because they are highly toxic. This, it turns out, is untrue, but at that time - the early 1970s - there were only 3 books on the subject in existence, and these were 2 of them. I have never used deterpenated oils for aromatherapy practice, but do use them in product formulations. Tisserand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 > I guess I had kind of forgotten that terpeneless oils are not widely available - at least not > in small quantities. They are produced by mid-size to large commercial operations for use > in both fragrances and flavours. One of the best-known in the US is Citrus & Allied. Their > smallest pack size is 500 g, and they don't publish a price list. You have to register on > their site, and if they like what they see they will send free samples. http:// > citrusandallied.com. Thanks for that info! I had no idea. > Terpeneless oils are really worth investigating from a fragrance standpoint, and I have > given quite the wrong impression about price. They are certainly more expensive than the > The other constituents in these oils are proportionately greater, so a highly deterpenated > grapefruit is quite rich in nootkatone - a much sought-after fragrance and flavour > constituent. Other deterpenated citrus oils show increases in fatty aldehydes such as > octanal and decanal. These are powerful citrus odour notes (limonene is a sharp top note, > but in some ways not a powerful odour) and most deterpenated oils have an amazing > strength. Highly deterpenated oils are perhaps closer to middle than top notes. A question about the above... You say they smell different...how different from the originals? Is it different the way say 5x or 10x sweet orange is different from regular strength sweet orange? Sort of a thicker gummier but same smell, or different as in almost a different type of citrus because it's missing the top notes? This is fascinating, I'll see if I can get samples. Thank you for the advice and suggestions!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 At 02:04 AM 1/2/2007, you wrote: >Terpeneless oils are really worth investigating from a fragrance >standpoint, and I have >given quite the wrong impression about price. They are certainly >more expensive than the >regular oils, but most are $100 - $300 per kg. Much depends on the degree of >deterpenation. A " 2-fold " lemon oil will still consist of about 35% >limonene (instead of the >usual 70%) but a 10-fold lemon oil will have only about 10% >limonene. As the degree of >deterpenation increases, so the oils smell more intense, and less >like the regular oils, but >still very characteristic of the fruit. (snipped other great info to save BW) Thanks, . Whew. I knew there had to be at least ONE person on the group who knew about them, and of course it was you. I know Treatt has them (mostly citrus) and I look at the other company. I was intrigued when I read that major perfume companies used them to avoid milky perfumes, and now I'm off to research. Anya McCoy Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org Natural Perfumers Community Group / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 At 02:04 AM 1/2/2007, you wrote: >Terpeneless oils are really worth investigating from a fragrance >standpoint, and I have >given quite the wrong impression about price. They are certainly >more expensive than the >regular oils, but most are $100 - $300 per kg. Much depends on the degree of >deterpenation. A " 2-fold " lemon oil will still consist of about 35% >limonene (instead of the >usual 70%) but a 10-fold lemon oil will have only about 10% >limonene. As the degree of >deterpenation increases, so the oils smell more intense, and less >like the regular oils, but >still very characteristic of the fruit. (snipped other great info to save BW) Thanks, . Whew. I knew there had to be at least ONE person on the group who knew about them, and of course it was you. I know Treatt has them (mostly citrus) and I look at the other company. I was intrigued when I read that major perfume companies used them to avoid milky perfumes, and now I'm off to research. Anya McCoy Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org Natural Perfumers Community Group / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 > >Terpeneless oils are really worth investigating from a fragrance > >standpoint, and I have > >given quite the wrong impression about price. They are certainly > >more expensive than the > >regular oils, but most are $100 - $300 per kg. Much depends on the degree of > >deterpenation. A " 2-fold " lemon oil will still consist of about 35% > >limonene (instead of the > >usual 70%) but a 10-fold lemon oil will have only about 10% > >limonene. As the degree of > >deterpenation increases, so the oils smell more intense, and less > >like the regular oils, but > >still very characteristic of the fruit. > > (snipped other great info to save BW) > > Thanks, . Whew. I knew there had to be at least ONE person on > the group who knew about them, and of course it was you. I know > Treatt has them (mostly citrus) and I look at the other company. I > was intrigued when I read that major perfume companies used them to > avoid milky perfumes, and now I'm off to research. > > > Anya McCoy I should also add that removing (phototoxic) fourocoumarins from bergamot should not be confused with removing terpenes from citrus oils. The deterpenation process actually increases the concentration of furocoumarins in the oil, so a 10-fold lemon oil is 10 times more phototoxic than a regular lemon oil. Lemon oil is OK to use at 2.0%, so a 10-fold lemon oil is OK at 0.2% in the final product. Since the deterpenated oils are in a way concentrated, you don't need so much, but you will get quite different effects with them. Terpeneless oils may have been developed more for flavour than fragrance use, but I find them very useful, and if you're looking for gourmand notes, terpeneless lemon, orange or grapefruit can be stunning, though they don't have the zesty top notes, since these have been removed. Tisserand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 At 12:53 PM 1/2/2007, you wrote: >Since the deterpenated oils are in a way concentrated, you don't >need so much, but you >will get quite different effects with them. Terpeneless oils may >have been developed more >for flavour than fragrance use, but I find them very useful, and if >you're looking for >gourmand notes, terpeneless lemon, orange or grapefruit can be >stunning, though they >don't have the zesty top notes, since these have been removed. , finally a light went on in my head, and I checked Arctander. Nice write up on terpeneless oils. Still, your info is very comprehensive and up-to-date and RL, so I appreciate your input. Anya McCoy Anya's Garden of Natural Perfume http://anyasgarden.com Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild http://artisannaturalperfumers.org Natural Perfumers Community Group / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 > >Since the deterpenated oils are in a way concentrated, you don't > >need so much, but you > >will get quite different effects with them. Terpeneless oils may > >have been developed more > >for flavour than fragrance use, but I find them very useful, and if > >you're looking for > >gourmand notes, terpeneless lemon, orange or grapefruit can be > >stunning, though they > >don't have the zesty top notes, since these have been removed. > > , finally a light went on in my head, and I checked Arctander. > Nice write up on terpeneless oils. Still, your info is very > comprehensive and up-to-date and RL, so I appreciate your input. > > > Anya McCoy Thanks - I'm writing mostly from pratical experience, but since your post have read the material in Arctander, and it seems there are various methods of producing terpeneless oils, as well as the varying degrees of deterpenation. As with any material the ideal is to sample as much as possible. The citrus oils might work very well in lip balms. Tisserand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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