Guest guest Posted December 17, 2006 Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 This group in incredibly rich and dense, I am so grateful to be here! Here is my first question : I have bought a chamomille (matricaria) EO, labeled " extra blue " with a high level of chamzulene. I found the blue to be kind of green, as it was decribed by an web article of jeanne rose, that made me think that my EO was probably too old. As I paid it 30$ a tiny botte, I decided to use it anyway, and I found that the EO precipitates into small goooey filandrous matters in suspension, and this phenomenon happens after dissolution in honey and also after dissolution in alcoholic phase. Now the questions : what is that precipitate exactly ? Is my EO safe for use eventhough it's not as fresh as I would have wished for the price? Wikipedia told me that there is a synthetic way of making chamazulene. How do I know that my matricaria extra blue is " natural " (I read about chamazulene being not considered natural because it's created through the distillation process)? Thank you very much fab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2006 Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 > This group in incredibly rich and dense, I am so grateful to be here! > > Here is my first question : > > I have bought a chamomille (matricaria) EO, labeled " extra blue " with a > high level of chamzulene. > I found the blue to be kind of green, as it was decribed by an web > article of jeanne rose, that made me think that my EO was probably too old. > As I paid it 30$ a tiny botte, I decided to use it anyway, and I found > that the EO precipitates into small goooey filandrous matters in > suspension, and this phenomenon happens after dissolution in honey and > also after dissolution in alcoholic phase. > > Now the questions : > what is that precipitate exactly ? > Is my EO safe for use eventhough it's not as fresh as I would have > wished for the price? > > Wikipedia told me that there is a synthetic way of making chamazulene. > How do I know that my matricaria extra blue is " natural " (I read about > chamazulene being not considered natural because it's created through > the distillation process)? > > Thank you very much > fab > Hi Fab. To answer your last question first, yes, chamazulene is created during distillation, from its precursor, matricine. By the way, it's a polyalkene, not a monoterpene as stated in Wikipedia. So, there is no azulene as such in the plant. Whether this makes the oil or the chamazulene " not natural " is purely a matter of opinion. Is distillation a natural process or a man-made one? Many changes take place during distillation, and no distilled oil is chemically identical to the oil that exists in the plant. If your oil has turned green this is a sign that the azulene is light-damaged (photochemically degraded), and the oil is already fairly old - or has been very poorly stored. Either way, not good. I don't know whether synthetic azulene is used as an adulterant. I also don't know what your " small goooey filandrous matters " might be. Natural azulene is quite viscous, but as far as I know the oil should still solubilize well in alcohol. Tisserand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 > I have bought a chamomille (matricaria) EO, labeled " extra blue " with a high level of chamzulene. I found the blue to be kind of green, as it was decribed by an web article of jeanne rose, that made me think that my EO was probably too old. > As I paid it 30$ a tiny botte, I decided to use it anyway, and I found that the EO precipitates into small goooey filandrous matters in suspension, and this phenomenon happens after dissolution in honey and also after dissolution in alcoholic phase. HI Fab! I was thinking about this while at work tonight. At first I thought maybe your chamomile had been doctored with Chaulmoogra oil {Hydnocarpus kurzii}, but after checking I see it has the wrong constituents. That might have explained the precipitaion you get when adding to alcohol-the heavier oil falling out of the true EO. I did some looking around and found the following on the Pacific northwest Artemisia arborescens to be interesting: " Few analysis have been reported for Artemisia arborescens, but two have been characterized: the high chamazulene type and the high beta- thujone type (Codignola, 1984.) Pacific NW high chamazulene type: In contrast to the thujone type, this deep blue-black colored high chamazulene type of oil does not present a thujone character, but is more low-key in impact being fresh, slightly sweet, slightly minty at first, becoming much more minty after five minutes, with a lift reminiscent of angelica seed oil. There is also a hint of fruitiness. The dry-out is minty, fruity- apricot, sweet with some fresh tobacco leaf character. In comparison to the normal type, the dry-down of the Pacific NW type is more fruity, and makes the normal type look woodier and soapier in comparison. " The full article is a PDF at: http://atlanticinstitute.com/artemisia.pdf Does your EO have any of these odor qualities? iel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 > So, there is no azulene as such in the plant. Whether this makes the oil or the > chamazulene " not natural " is purely a matter of opinion. Is distillation a natural process or > a man-made one? Many changes take place during distillation, and no distilled oil is > chemically identical to the oil that exists in the plant. > , thank you, merci :-) I agree with you on " what's natural? " By the way, how come that some chamomille EO contain azulene and some don't (not to the point that it's visibly blue)? Is there something specific to the distillation process that creates the chamazulene? > the oil is already fairly old - or has been very poorly > stored. Either way, not good. do you think I should discard it? Or keep it for " lower-level " purpose, e.g. in my bath? > I also don't know what your " small goooey filandrous matters " might be. Natural azulene is > quite viscous, but as far as I know the oil should still solubilize well in alcohol. I was hoping to be answered " of course there is a precipitate, it's completely normal, we all have this with our chamomille oils " Apparently, it's not the case and the oil has probably been modified. I was also hoping that someone would say " yes, chamomille is often doctored with this/that, it's a classical trick, but no worry, it's safe, just lower quality " not the case neither... how disapointing. But loosing some $$ is also a good lesson. I ordered to this company because I wanted to save a little bit, and I noticed several details that I find unpleasant. thank you again! fab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 > > HI Fab! > I was thinking about this while at work tonight. At first I thought > maybe your chamomile had been doctored with Chaulmoogra oil > {Hydnocarpus kurzii}, but after checking I see it has the wrong > constituents. That might have explained the precipitaion you get when > adding to alcohol-the heavier oil falling out of the true EO. Thank you to you too iel! Is chaulmoogra oil green? My EO is a dark blue-greenish color. I put a drop on a paper, and it extents a lot (more than EO ususally do), and the green color becomes obvious. However, the precipitate comes at the surface of the alcoholic solution, and does not fall to the bottom. It is lighter than alcohol, and sticky to the touch. Dissolution in vinegar is cloudly, with tiny greenish droplets in suspension. I have no idea if this is informative? > " Few analysis have been reported for Artemisia arborescens, but two > have been characterized: the high chamazulene type and the high beta- > thujone type (Codignola, 1984.) > Pacific NW high chamazulene type: In contrast to the thujone type, > this deep blue-black colored high chamazulene type of oil does not > present a thujone character, but is more low-key in impact being > fresh, slightly sweet, slightly minty at first, becoming much more > minty after five minutes, with a lift reminiscent of angelica seed > oil. There is also a hint of fruitiness. The dry-out is minty, fruity- > apricot, sweet with some fresh tobacco leaf character. In comparison > to the normal type, the dry-down of the Pacific NW type is more > fruity, and makes the normal type look woodier and soapier in > comparison. " > The full article is a PDF at: > http://atlanticinstitute.com/artemisia.pdf > I read it, thank you so much! If I understand well, since artemisia arborescens oil has such a high level a azulene, it would be easy to doctor a chamomille oil with it? I wish it was the case, since this article states that the azulene type is rather mild and has no thujone. It's funny because I intended to use the matricaria exactly as they state for the artemisia arborescens, in association with helychrisum for scars... If this was my blue-green component, would that explain the precipitate that surfaces my solution? > Does your EO have any of these odor qualities? I wish I had more experience and be able to answer a clear yes or no. This makes me feel like a unexperienced child (which I am obviously on this topic).Very slightly minty, maybe, but the whole thing rather smells like chamomille to me... Thank you once more! fab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 On 19/12/06, fab <thefabfab@...> wrote: > I was hoping to be answered " of course there is a precipitate, it's > completely normal, we all have this with our chamomille oils " > Apparently, it's not the case and the oil has probably been modified. Hi Fab No, not necessarily adulterated, as wrote : > > the oil is already fairly old - or has been very poorly > > stored. Either way, not good. As chamomile ages, or is exposed to air and light, it loses its rich blue colour and turns greeny/blue. So - it seems - your chamomile has been badly stored or kept to long. That is still not good, but is quite away from being adulterated. How does it react in oil? I tried blending Yarrow in vodka and that got *floaty* bits in it as well. In oil it needs a little mixing, but does blend. This is a good yarrow from a reputable supplier. If its a recent purchase, get in touch with the supplier and ask them to change it because it has degraded. A simple note along the lines of " Hi, As you will be aware Chamomile matricaria should be a rich inky blue colour. Unfortunately the oil I have received from you is green, indicating that it has degraded. I am therefore returning it to you for refund or replacement. I look forward to hearing from you. " Should do the trick. HTH LLx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Hi Fab, >By the way, how come that some chamomille EO contain azulene and some >don't (not to the point that it's visibly blue)? Is there something >specific to the distillation process that creates the chamazulene? Those are different kinds of chamomile: blue or german chamomile is Chamomila matricaria, and roman chamomile which isn't blue or green is Anthemis nobilis or Chamomila nobile. Only in the matricaria enough chamazulene is created during the destillation process to give the EO the typical color. Love, Saskia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 > HI Fab! > I was thinking about this while at work tonight. At first I thought > maybe your chamomile had been doctored with Chaulmoogra oil > {Hydnocarpus kurzii}, but after checking I see it has the wrong > constituents. That might have explained the precipitaion you getwhen > adding to alcohol-the heavier oil falling out of the true EO. Thank you to you too iel! Is chaulmoogra oil green? My EO is a dark blue-greenish color. I puta drop on a paper, and it extents a lot (more than EO ususally do),and the green color becomes obvious. However, the precipitate comes atthe surface of the alcoholic solution, and does not fall to the bottom. It is lighter than alcohol, and sticky to the touch. Dissolution in vinegar is cloudly, with tiny greenish droplets in suspension. I have noidea if this is informative? Hello Fab, iel, Chaulmoogra oil is a fixed oil . . . This is the first I have heard that it has been used to doctor chamomile essential oil. iel, could you please elaborate an instance in which you have found this? Very interesting. The description of Fab's tincture does seem to indicate that a fixed oil might be present. Marcia Elston, Samara Botane http://www.wingedseed.com " When the power of love becomes stronger than the love of power, we will have peace. " Jimi Hendrix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Hello Fab, iel, Chaulmoogra oil is a fixed oil . . . This is the first I have heard that it has been used to doctor chamomile essential oil. iel, could you please elaborate an instance in which you have found this? Very interesting. The description of Fab's tincture does seem to indicate that a fixed oil might be present. Marcia Elston, Samara Botane HI Marcia, The chaulmooga oil was a random thought. For some reason I thought it was high in chamazulene, and after looking at my notes realized it wasn't. And to compound that, its not a very common fixed oil. After reading the rest of the topic's threads, a stale EO behaving badly is a more likely situation. Fab probably has a heavier extraction with more plant waxes, etc. iel __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 > As chamomile ages, or is exposed to air and light, it loses its rich > blue colour and turns greeny/blue. So - it seems - your chamomile has > been badly stored or kept to long. That is still not good, but is > quite away from being adulterated. > Liz, thank you! Yes, I should give the benefit of doubt to this producer. However, I can't help suspecting something fishy with this oil. It smells very chamomilly to me, but I'm not an expert nose. I made a test : one drop on a piece of paper, comparing -- a cape code chamomille from a reputable supplier -- a blue chamomille from a reputable supplier -- my own extra blue chamomille my extra blue really tints the paper, leaving no transparency, as if it was some kind of ink. I continued on this idea, and I put on drop of each on my skin, and rubbed to see what's happening. The two first oil give a slight blue shade to my skin, that goes away within minutes. the extra blue one looks like I am rubbing water based paint on my skin. It goes away, but takes longer. It might be a quality inherent to that type of oil, indeed. Would any specialist be intersted in receiveing a sample and give his opinion on it? > How does it react in oil? I tried blending Yarrow in vodka and that > got *floaty* bits in it as well. In oil it needs a little mixing, but > does blend. This is a good yarrow from a reputable supplier. > it's hard to say if it's a normal " floaty " characteristic, or clearly a reaction with a component that is *not* a volatile component (like ink for example, if my suspicion is founded) > If its a recent purchase, get in touch with the supplier and ask them > to change it because it has degraded. > I know I should do that. However, it is so against my culture (we never do such a thing in france) that I don't think i'll be able to do so, silly as it may sounds to you. I'm enjoying the lesson though, trying to make my own judgement on something. And maybe, next time, I'll feel ready to do what looks so american to me : returning a product :-))) cheers fab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 > Those are different kinds of chamomile: blue or german chamomile is > Chamomila matricaria, and roman chamomile which isn't blue or green is > Anthemis nobilis or Chamomila nobile. Only in the matricaria enough > chamazulene is created during the destillation process to give the EO the > typical color. > Saskia, thanks to you too. It makes sense. How come some are " blue " and some are " extra blue " ? Is it related to the varieties of the plant? cheers fab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 > The description of Fab's tincture does seem to indicate that a > fixed oil might be present. > Marcia Elston, Samara Botane > > [...] a stale EO behaving badly is a more likely situation. Fab probably has a heavier extraction with more plant waxes, etc. > iel Thank you iel and Marcia. yes, a fixed oil could explain the situation. But what's the intesrest of adding a fixed oil to an EO? Natural ink is based on fixed oil as a carrier (ink is similar in structure to perfume. requires a pigment+a carrier+a fixative), which made me suspect the presence of ink, that would be used to deepen the blue. However, the presence of plant waxes would also perfectly explain the phenomenon. I had no idea that plant non volatile material could stain the EO! How could that happen through a steam distillation process? Now, could this indicate a solvent extraction? so many questions... cheers, fab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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