Re: Good article on mechanism by which mycotoxins may cause depression- Please read

[Guest guest]

Sure some of this information could be true regarding depression. I

take ativan and clonidine for a neruological tic I have, but my

depression is because of all this stuff we have to go through just

because we unfortunately got an illness that we have to fight and

fight for help. Of course we are depressed especially when you get

ill around everyday products. I will be a lot happier when someone

does something to actually help us from all of this suffering. I am

tired of vomiting, trying to dodge detergents, fragrances and worse

of all mold.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> There is a good article at

>

> http://molinterv.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/8/441

>

> that everyone here should read..

>

> _____cut here_______

>

> *A neurogenic theory of depression gains

>

momentum.*<http://molinterv.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/8/441

>

>

> * RM*<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

db=PubMed & cmd=Search & itool=PubMed_Abstract & term=%22+RM%22%

5BAuthor%5D>,

> * DA*<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

db=PubMed & cmd=Search & itool=PubMed_Abstract & term=%22+DA%22%

5BAuthor%5D>

> .

>

> Department of Neuroscience, The Chicago Medical School North

Chicago, IL,

> USA.

>

> The rate of adult neurogenesis fluctuates in response to several

> environmental factors. Chronic stress, which can lead to neuronal

apoptosis

> and dendritic atrophy, certainly affects the overall rate of

neurogenesis in

> the adult brain. Depression, which arises from several causes,

including

> chronically stressful situations, is known to correlate with altered

> hippocampal morphology. But is the link between depression and

neuronal

> regeneration merely coincidental? Recent studies indicate that

ingestion of

> antidepressants leads to increased neurogenesis in the hippocampus.

However,

> the hippocampus is generally thought important for learning and

memory-not

> for " mood " state-thus, there is much more to the story that requires

> clarification. Also, caveats abound in the interpretation of

neurogenesis in

> the amelioration of depression; nonetheless, these results are quite

> intriguing and might point to better design and prediction of new-

generation

> antidepressants.

>

> PMID: 14993452 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

> ____end abstract_____

>

> My logic goes like this:

>

> Mycotoxicosis from stachybotrys and perhaps other mycotoxins can

cause an

> inability in the body to create new cells by inhibiting protein

synthesis.

> In addition to preventing other natural repair processes, like

those in the

> joints, eyes, nose, etc, this inhibition is probably the mechanism

by which

> mycotoxins prevent long term memories from forming during sleep -

the period

> during which the body turns a days memories into physical brain

> connections..

>

> This inhibits nuts and bolts integration of new learning, ('long

term

> potentiation') - it also seems to cause depressive illness in many..

>

> The theory described in the article above would explain all this...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--The vomiting and nausea are terrible. Please keep in touch with me. I

am a new member and don't know too many people with this condition. Robin Leigh

ldelp84227 <ldelp84227@...> wrote: Sure some of this information

could be true regarding depression. I

take ativan and clonidine for a neruological tic I have, but my

depression is because of all this stuff we have to go through just

because we unfortunately got an illness that we have to fight and

fight for help. Of course we are depressed especially when you get

ill around everyday products. I will be a lot happier when someone

does something to actually help us from all of this suffering. I am

tired of vomiting, trying to dodge detergents, fragrances and worse

of all mold.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> There is a good article at

>

> http://molinterv.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/8/441

>

> that everyone here should read..

>

> _____cut here_______

>

> *A neurogenic theory of depression gains

>

momentum.*<http://molinterv.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/8/441

>

>

> * RM*<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

db=PubMed & cmd=Search & itool=PubMed_Abstract & term=%22+RM%22%

5BAuthor%5D>,

> * DA*<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

db=PubMed & cmd=Search & itool=PubMed_Abstract & term=%22+DA%22%

5BAuthor%5D>

> .

>

> Department of Neuroscience, The Chicago Medical School North

Chicago, IL,

> USA.

>

> The rate of adult neurogenesis fluctuates in response to several

> environmental factors. Chronic stress, which can lead to neuronal

apoptosis

> and dendritic atrophy, certainly affects the overall rate of

neurogenesis in

> the adult brain. Depression, which arises from several causes,

including

> chronically stressful situations, is known to correlate with altered

> hippocampal morphology. But is the link between depression and

neuronal

> regeneration merely coincidental? Recent studies indicate that

ingestion of

> antidepressants leads to increased neurogenesis in the hippocampus.

However,

> the hippocampus is generally thought important for learning and

memory-not

> for " mood " state-thus, there is much more to the story that requires

> clarification. Also, caveats abound in the interpretation of

neurogenesis in

> the amelioration of depression; nonetheless, these results are quite

> intriguing and might point to better design and prediction of new-

generation

> antidepressants.

>

> PMID: 14993452 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

> ____end abstract_____

>

> My logic goes like this:

>

> Mycotoxicosis from stachybotrys and perhaps other mycotoxins can

cause an

> inability in the body to create new cells by inhibiting protein

synthesis.

> In addition to preventing other natural repair processes, like

those in the

> joints, eyes, nose, etc, this inhibition is probably the mechanism

by which

> mycotoxins prevent long term memories from forming during sleep -

the period

> during which the body turns a days memories into physical brain

> connections..

>

> This inhibits nuts and bolts integration of new learning, ('long

term

> potentiation') - it also seems to cause depressive illness in many..

>

> The theory described in the article above would explain all this...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I so agree with you if Landlord had to pay your Medical Bills this too shall

pass. I know someone getting ready to sale a home the mold is so bad I can't go

inside any longer. the Mold will be covered up and sold I feel for the person or

persons that buy it that is unless they plain to tare it down Buyer beware.

Elvira

[] Re: Good article on mechanism by which mycotoxins may

cause depression- Please read

Sure some of this information could be true regarding depression. I

take ativan and clonidine for a neruological tic I have, but my

depression is because of all this stuff we have to go through just

because we unfortunately got an illness that we have to fight and

fight for help. Of course we are depressed especially when you get

ill around everyday products. I will be a lot happier when someone

does something to actually help us from all of this suffering. I am

tired of vomiting, trying to dodge detergents, fragrances and worse

of all mold.

>

> There is a good article at

>

> http://molinterv.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/8/441

>

> that everyone here should read..

>

> _____cut here_______

>

> *A neurogenic theory of depression gains

>

momentum.*<http://molinterv.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/8/441

>

>

> * RM*<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

db=PubMed & cmd=Search & itool=PubMed_Abstract & term=%22+RM%22%

5BAuthor%5D>,

> * DA*<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

db=PubMed & cmd=Search & itool=PubMed_Abstract & term=%22+DA%22%

5BAuthor%5D>

> .

>

> Department of Neuroscience, The Chicago Medical School North

Chicago, IL,

> USA.

>

> The rate of adult neurogenesis fluctuates in response to several

> environmental factors. Chronic stress, which can lead to neuronal

apoptosis

> and dendritic atrophy, certainly affects the overall rate of

neurogenesis in

> the adult brain. Depression, which arises from several causes,

including

> chronically stressful situations, is known to correlate with altered

> hippocampal morphology. But is the link between depression and

neuronal

> regeneration merely coincidental? Recent studies indicate that

ingestion of

> antidepressants leads to increased neurogenesis in the hippocampus.

However,

> the hippocampus is generally thought important for learning and

memory-not

> for " mood " state-thus, there is much more to the story that requires

> clarification. Also, caveats abound in the interpretation of

neurogenesis in

> the amelioration of depression; nonetheless, these results are quite

> intriguing and might point to better design and prediction of new-

generation

> antidepressants.

>

> PMID: 14993452 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

> ____end abstract_____

>

> My logic goes like this:

>

> Mycotoxicosis from stachybotrys and perhaps other mycotoxins can

cause an

> inability in the body to create new cells by inhibiting protein

synthesis.

> In addition to preventing other natural repair processes, like

those in the

> joints, eyes, nose, etc, this inhibition is probably the mechanism

by which

> mycotoxins prevent long term memories from forming during sleep -

the period

> during which the body turns a days memories into physical brain

> connections..

>

> This inhibits nuts and bolts integration of new learning, ('long

term

> potentiation') - it also seems to cause depressive illness in many..

>

> The theory described in the article above would explain all this...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would have that is the case with me. My doctor keeps trying to tell

me I'm depressed (-well not any more but he did at first-) and give me

antidepressants. Sure I was depressed, who wouldn't be if you feel

sick and can't get any help, it robs you of income, your homes, your

future. But, don't give me an antidepressant, help me with the

illness, or at least ***TRY***, even a little step forward in improved

health and energy lifts my mood; or do BOTH, give me antidepressant

AND help me with illness. My experience with doctors is they are

trained to " MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER **ABOUT** BEING SICK " , and that's

about all.

--- In , " ldelp84227 " <ldelp84227@...>

wrote:

>

> Sure some of this information could be true regarding depression. I

[Guest guest]

Nothing to say but -- VERY insightful........sad but true......

barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote: I would have that is the case with

me. My doctor keeps trying to tell

me I'm depressed (-well not any more but he did at first-) and give me

antidepressants. Sure I was depressed, who wouldn't be if you feel

sick and can't get any help, it robs you of income, your homes, your

future. But, don't give me an antidepressant, help me with the

illness, or at least ***TRY***, even a little step forward in improved

health and energy lifts my mood; or do BOTH, give me antidepressant

AND help me with illness. My experience with doctors is they are

trained to " MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER **ABOUT** BEING SICK " , and that's

about all.

--- In , " ldelp84227 " <ldelp84227@...>

wrote:

>

> Sure some of this information could be true regarding depression. I

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

barb--where do you live??? there are some doctors who treat this condition.

Email me privately and I will try to help you find somebody. Robin

barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote: I would have that is the case with

me. My doctor keeps trying to tell

me I'm depressed (-well not any more but he did at first-) and give me

antidepressants. Sure I was depressed, who wouldn't be if you feel

sick and can't get any help, it robs you of income, your homes, your

future. But, don't give me an antidepressant, help me with the

illness, or at least ***TRY***, even a little step forward in improved

health and energy lifts my mood; or do BOTH, give me antidepressant

AND help me with illness. My experience with doctors is they are

trained to " MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER **ABOUT** BEING SICK " , and that's

about all.

--- In , " ldelp84227 " <ldelp84227@...>

wrote:

>

> Sure some of this information could be true regarding depression. I

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I was specifically thinking about trichothecene mycotoxins causing

apoptopsis (programmed cell death) and blocking protein synthesis which I

think explains a lot of the symptoms I have gotten from mold.

Yes, losing your job, your memory, your home, your relationship, etc. can

and does cause depression in and of themselves, but the depression I am

talking about I think for me was a direct result of nonlethal, low-level,

chronic exposure to trichothecene mycotoxins such as those in stachybotrys

('toxic black mold') - I came to ths conclusion because of its timing.

BTW, if you lose your job or other important aspects of your life as a

direct result of mold illness, I feel that whoever caused that IS

responsible for the aftermath in your life.

If someone shoots your leg off with a gun and then you lose your ability to

work normally because you can't walk without a wheelchair, even if you are

not '100% disabled' I think that compensation should occur at an appropriate

level.. not just a token..

Because you will be struggling for the rest of your life with that...

[Guest guest]

Physical illness does affect your nervous system also. I was just

saying that I feel the biggest impact to me have been the losses

impacting my present and future financial security. I can't

retrieve loss as there is noone to sue. All losses can't be

retrieved. I got hit by a car in a parking lot during Christmas

rush season and couldn't work for three months. Person that hit me

had no insurance and no money, no assets, just 19; shopping center

which had no crosswalks to cross over busy intersection was

protected in their lease from being at fault for any accidents

there. (Be aware of that at shopping malls. They are private

property and many have a 'no fault' clause written in. Next day

they placed a guard there to stop traffic for pedestrians). Driver

didn't even get a moving violation for hitting a pedestrian at an

intersection. I should have had right of way naturally. Police said

they had no jurisdiction at mall as it was private property. They

got his drivers license information for me was all they did and made

note of accident. I got a lawyer but in the end, all the expenses

were mine, so financial losses, loss of job and health cannot always

be recuperated from someone else.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> I was specifically thinking about trichothecene mycotoxins causing

> apoptopsis (programmed cell death) and blocking protein synthesis

which I

>

[Guest guest]

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

> I was specifically thinking about trichothecene mycotoxins causing

apoptopsis (programmed cell death) and blocking protein synthesis

which I think explains a lot of the symptoms I have gotten from

mold.

> Yes, losing your job, your memory, your home, your relationship,

etc. can and does cause depression in and of themselves, but the

depression I am talking about I think for me was a direct result of

nonlethal, low-level, chronic exposure to trichothecene mycotoxins

such as those in stachybotrys

> ('toxic black mold') - I came to ths conclusion because of its

timing.

Yes, the mechanism is explained in both Desperation Medicine and

Mold Warriors, and been covered extensively in the old messages on

this message board. It is the direct effect of inflammatory

cytokines which are released as an immunological response to the

toxins - it is not a result of just being emotionally " down " from

your illness, although that certainly happens as well.

The cellular apoptosis is a programmed response to systematically

dismantle dysfunctional cells before they undergo catastrophic cell

death. Apoptosis allows the body to reclaim cellular constituents

while the cell is still viable. Once the cell has been

catastrophically lysed, its components place a much greater burden

on the immune system for total removal, because nothing can be

recycled.

Apoptosis is a good thing in that the effects of reclaiming damaged

cells is far less catastrophic than cell death.

This programming for apoptosis is also an effect of toxin induced

cytokine release, so the effect runs in parallel with cytokine

induced " depression " .

-

[Guest guest]

thanks for explaining that complicated process. I am new here and things are

making more sense to me. I have been ill for a long time due to long term

exposure. very long term. It is a shame that we patients know more about

mycotoxins than doctors. Keep up the faith and the wonderful wonderful work.

erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote: LiveSimply

<quackadillian@...> wrote:

> I was specifically thinking about trichothecene mycotoxins causing

apoptopsis (programmed cell death) and blocking protein synthesis

which I think explains a lot of the symptoms I have gotten from

mold.

> Yes, losing your job, your memory, your home, your relationship,

etc. can and does cause depression in and of themselves, but the

depression I am talking about I think for me was a direct result of

nonlethal, low-level, chronic exposure to trichothecene mycotoxins

such as those in stachybotrys

> ('toxic black mold') - I came to ths conclusion because of its

timing.

Yes, the mechanism is explained in both Desperation Medicine and

Mold Warriors, and been covered extensively in the old messages on

this message board. It is the direct effect of inflammatory

cytokines which are released as an immunological response to the

toxins - it is not a result of just being emotionally " down " from

your illness, although that certainly happens as well.

The cellular apoptosis is a programmed response to systematically

dismantle dysfunctional cells before they undergo catastrophic cell

death. Apoptosis allows the body to reclaim cellular constituents

while the cell is still viable. Once the cell has been

catastrophically lysed, its components place a much greater burden

on the immune system for total removal, because nothing can be

recycled.

Apoptosis is a good thing in that the effects of reclaiming damaged

cells is far less catastrophic than cell death.

This programming for apoptosis is also an effect of toxin induced

cytokine release, so the effect runs in parallel with cytokine

induced " depression " .

-

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I don't think a statement like 'we people know more about mycotoxins than

doctors' has even a chance of being accurate. Why? Because medicine is a

huge and rapidly evolving field, like any science. Most primary care

practicioners are trained to recognize the things that our society in its

infinite wisdom, has decided are the worst threats.

They don't know much about mold. We have to give them the tools to make

their own decisions based on a wider array of facts.

IMO, The real people to blame are the people controlling the rigid and

inflexible mechanisms that act as gateways to the title of 'recognized

science'. Many of those people these days are in politics or they are

lobbyists. (Notice how lobbyists, not scientists, 'wrote' the Bush

administrations climate and energy policy documents - which are full of

blatant lies!)

Even things that are pretty clear - that have political implications - like

mold, are being blocked by the current adminstration also. (Just look at

their non-policy on global warming)

You can't expect these monolithic, politics-driven power blocs to stand up

for average people. We don't pay their paychecks. Lobbyists for industries

like the building, real-estate, insurance and pharmaceutical industries - if

somewhat indirectly - DO.

We need to get politics out of medicine..and money out of politics.

Otherwise, we can give up on this country's future for all but the rich and

well connected..

Its happening already.

[Guest guest]

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

>

> I don't think a statement like 'we people know more about

mycotoxins than doctors' has even a chance of being accurate. Why?

Because medicine is a huge and rapidly evolving field, like any

science. Most primary care practicioners are trained to recognize

the things that our society in its infinite wisdom, has decided are

the worst threats.

> They don't know much about mold. We have to give them the tools to

make their own decisions based on a wider array of facts.

>

> IMO, The real people to blame are the people controlling the rigid

and inflexible mechanisms that act as gateways to the title

of 'recognized science'. Many of those people these days are in

politics or they are lobbyists. (Notice how lobbyists, not

scientists, 'wrote' the Bush administrations climate and energy

policy documents - which are full of blatant lies!)

> Even things that are pretty clear - that have political

implications - like mold, are being blocked by the current

adminstration also. (Just look at their non-policy on global warming)

> You can't expect these monolithic, politics-driven power blocs to

stand up for average people. We don't pay their paychecks. Lobbyists

for industries like the building, real-estate, insurance and

pharmaceutical industries - if somewhat indirectly - DO.

> We need to get politics out of medicine..and money out of politics.

Otherwise, we can give up on this country's future for all but the

rich and well connected..

>

I spent years contacting doctors, telling my story and asking if

they were interested in learning about the mycotoxin connection to

CFS.

They all refused. except for one notable exception who didn't even

need to be asked, and took the initiative upon himself to

investigate this clue.

I agree that the political monolith is suppressing science, but it

is too late for doctors to get themselves off the hook. They were

at the leading edge of that suppression. I gave them the chance to

show what they knew, when I put the proposition before them - and

they made their choice.

They cannot undo their actions, and their actions speak for

themselves.

What little we know about mycotoxins has been demonstrably more

than doctors know.

-

[Guest guest]

I think that there is already a lot of evidence on other inhibitors of

protein (i.e. new brain connections) synthesis

(causing depression, attention, and especially, memory problems - because

daytime experiences cannot be integrated into actual hardwired connections

as we sleep)

So how come they can't make this connection when they seem to make it easily

with other toxins that do the same things - that are found less frequently?

With lifetime learning being all important to careers, a 'stumble' of a year

or two or three - that time lost - probably makes a huge difference in one's

career path.

We need to be able to learn all the time, not just when we are lucky enough

to live in mold free homes or work in mold-free workplaces..

The economic value of being able to learn - or not to learn, is very high...

Imagine the effect on a schoolchild who spent several years in a moldy

school. It would mean the difference between a life spent in hellish

low-paid jobs or a sucessful, prosperous future. Also, since the growth of

young brains is never repeated, toxic mold could also cause permanent

learning disabilities..

On 6/16/06, erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

>

> LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

> >

> > I don't think a statement like 'we people know more about

> mycotoxins than doctors' has even a chance of being accurate. Why?

> Because medicine is a huge and rapidly evolving field, like any

> science. Most primary care practicioners are trained to recognize

> the things that our society in its infinite wisdom, has decided are

> the worst threats.

> > They don't know much about mold. We have to give them the tools to

> make their own decisions based on a wider array of facts.

> >

> > IMO, The real people to blame are the people controlling the rigid

> and inflexible mechanisms that act as gateways to the title

> of 'recognized science'. Many of those people these days are in

> politics or they are lobbyists. (Notice how lobbyists, not

> scientists, 'wrote' the Bush administrations climate and energy

> policy documents - which are full of blatant lies!)

> > Even things that are pretty clear - that have political

> implications - like mold, are being blocked by the current

> adminstration also. (Just look at their non-policy on global warming)

>

> > You can't expect these monolithic, politics-driven power blocs to

> stand up for average people. We don't pay their paychecks. Lobbyists

> for industries like the building, real-estate, insurance and

> pharmaceutical industries - if somewhat indirectly - DO.

> > We need to get politics out of medicine..and money out of politics.

> Otherwise, we can give up on this country's future for all but the

> rich and well connected..

> >

>

>

> I spent years contacting doctors, telling my story and asking if

> they were interested in learning about the mycotoxin connection to

> CFS.

> They all refused. except for one notable exception who didn't even

> need to be asked, and took the initiative upon himself to

> investigate this clue.

>

> I agree that the political monolith is suppressing science, but it

> is too late for doctors to get themselves off the hook. They were

> at the leading edge of that suppression. I gave them the chance to

> show what they knew, when I put the proposition before them - and

> they made their choice.

> They cannot undo their actions, and their actions speak for

> themselves.

> What little we know about mycotoxins has been demonstrably more

> than doctors know.

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

> So how come they can't make this connection when they seem to make

it easily with other toxins that do the same things - that are found

less frequently?

>

> With lifetime learning being all important to careers, a 'stumble'

of a year or two or three - that time lost - probably makes a huge

difference in one's career path.

>

First, doctors like to bask in the reflected glow of science and

technology, as if they were researchers and scientists themselves,

but they are no more likely to research a new paradigm than a car

salesman is likely to design you a new type of car.

Doctors are following the manual, and any deviation from the status

quo earns them the derision and censure of their colleagues.

We have seen time and again that any doctor who is the first to

identify anything, is the first to be crucified by his own peers.

As we saw with the first dentists to reject mercury, although they

were correct, taking a public stand to protect their patients was a

major stumble in their career path - as both their fellow dentists

and the ADA threatened them with loss of their licenses if they

didn't retract their statements and adhere to official policy.

With this in mind, consider that the qualities of mycotoxins are

known to those researchers who are in " pure " research, which is not

applied to the medical field yet. The scientific " disconnect "

occurs at the bottleneck where it becomes time to interface this

knowledge with the political and economic consequences.

For example:

> " General helps mount attack against mold "

Retired Gen. Tommy s is warring these days against mold. The

former commander of U.S. Central Command at MacDill Air Force Base

has

partnered with Tampa's Innovative Decon Solutions to pitch a cure

for " sick building syndrome, " that is, structures infested with mold

and other contaminants. A nontoxic decontamination chemical developed

by the military to neutralize chemical warfare agents in the Gulf War

is now licensed for civilian use.<

Now, it is fairly obvious that the military, for a long time, has

possessed a great deal of knowledge regarding mold toxins, for it

must have, in order to license a product for civilian use to treat a

problem that doctors don't even believe IS a problem yet.

Why wasn't this knowledge imparted to the medical community or to

the public before?

Apparently it wasn't until now that they believed that the economic

benefit outweight the political and social ramifications

-