Re: HV Banding

[Guest guest]

Hi here in Enfield we have been assimilated to band 6 also. As I work as a mentor for an HV student, I get paid half band 6 and half an 'H' as that part has not been assimilated yet. Myself and colleagues wait with something that I would not call optimism to see where we are, (My student is part-time thats why I get half and half). I too would be interested how the lucky hvs who got awarded a 7 managed it. Does anyone have copies of job descriptions, job outlines etc to send me to compare? Kathy Soderquist

[Guest guest]

HI

I don't know what trust you work for but here in Islington HVs have been awarded Band 7 which we are really thrilled about, especially as we have a severe shortage of HVs and recruitment is very difficult.

It was our managers who fought this for us - our job description was revised and most of us are also line managers to one or 2 skillmix staff such as nursery nurses, staff nurses and health care assistants

June

[Guest guest]

Interesting re:

disparities between 6 and 7 and differing PCT’s. Can anyone share the

differences? Are band 7 HV’s specialist posts? Band 6 generalists? Is there a

stronger managerial responsibility e.g. budget holder etc?

I remember Mark (CPHVA conference 2003)

saying that there was no ‘average’ health visitor when it came to

describing the HV role and I took that to mean that one job description did not

fit all. I appreciated Mark’s comment at that time and tended to agree.

On reflection a lot of man hours have been spent writing job descriptions by

individual PCT’s and AFC generally. A unified approach may have been more

effective. Job descriptions could then have been modified for individual PCT’s

if required.

Kathy, the issue around mentorship is an interesting

one too. Practice teachers seem to fall into band H/7. Mentors are being used as

practice teachers but in some trusts are not paid H but G. Kathy,

I feel you are either a G or H not a split grade! Regardless of whether your

student is part time or not you are still having to mentor a student (although

you are probably really enjoying the role) but your skills are transferable too

and the trust are reaping the benefits of your expertise to peers and the organization

as well.

I wonder if any mentors have been banded 7?

We are lucky that we don’t have a

staffing problem in my trust, but I know that my health visiting colleagues would

be very demoralized if they were not awarded the same banding for doing the

same job as another trust.

It would be useful to see job descriptions

for both HV and SN’s for band 6 and band 7.

Does any one else find banding such hard

work? Maybe not the HV’s who are

band 7 … and that’s a really positive move.

Dalton

Re: HV

Banding

Hi here

in Enfield we have been assimilated to band 6 also. As I work as a mentor

for an HV student, I get paid half band 6 and half an 'H' as that part has not

been assimilated yet. Myself and colleagues wait with something that I would

not call optimism to see where we are, (My student is part-time thats why I get

half and half). I too would be interested how the lucky hvs who got awarded a 7

managed it. Does anyone have copies of job descriptions, job outlines etc to

send me to compare? Kathy Soderquist

[Guest guest]

Yes I feel the same, that our pct are getting their moneys worth out of us mentors (cpts). There are currently 6 of us working in this role, but have been told that it may not continue if we don't have as many students in September. We have recently been told that our pct has money for 3 students, meaning that 3 of us will return to our 'G' band 6 grade. We are waiting to meet with our Director of Nursing to discuss the opportunities for cpts without students. Like taking forward professional development, standing in for managers, interviewing etc, etc, etc. In Enfield we manage other skillmix staff also and do not have a reduced caseload if we are mentoring. My caseload is currently 520 families, this is grossly unfair on my student and gives me no time to develop an effective programme for my student. We have an up hill battle to ensure fairness here and it is very disheartening to hear that other trusts have rewarded colleagues justly. (I think good for those who have band 7, we should all strive for the same). Kathy

[Guest guest]

Yes I feel the same, that our pct are getting their moneys worth out of us mentors (cpts). There are currently 6 of us working in this role, but have been told that it may not continue if we don't have as many students in September. We have recently been told that our pct has money for 3 students, meaning that 3 of us will return to our 'G' band 6 grade. We are waiting to meet with our Director of Nursing to discuss the opportunities for cpts without students. Like taking forward professional development, standing in for managers, interviewing etc, etc, etc. In Enfield we manage other skillmix staff also and do not have a reduced caseload if we are mentoring. My caseload is currently 520 families, this is grossly unfair on my student and gives me no time to develop an effective programme for my student. We have an up hill battle to ensure fairness here and it is very disheartening to hear that other trusts have rewarded colleagues justly. (I think good for those who have band 7, we should all strive for the same). Kathy

[Guest guest]

From Lund-Lack

One of the most important issues for me as a CPT or SPT Specialist PracticeTeacher (SPT) as we call ourselves locally, is that if this role is to be undertaken then the practitioner must have the appropriate preparation. For us locally and I know it happens in other PCTs it means doing the PGCE or PGDE thus embarking on the Practice Educator pathway and keeping in line with NMC guidelines. This gives the necessary knowledge and skills as well credence and authority to the role. It's no good fulfilling a teaching and assessing role and having no appropriate academic standing to back it. There should not be a short cut into an H grade for this role. I feel very strongly about this as I know what difference it makes to the CPT and most importantly, the student. Employersrecognisethe academic achievement we've gained and consider that we have additional skills that can be put to good use when we do not have students. In fact we always try to have a 'spare CPT' so that there is back up if a problem arises with a placement and the spare CPT also is delegated responsibilities for the recruitment process for the following academic year. We are all seen as senior practitioners and provide a advisory and leadership role by our managers. We have monthly meetings with our manager to discuss practice/education issues. Those wishing to become a CPT have to apply and be interviewed and are then funded onto the PGCE pathway. The one issue that arises with this is that running a caseload, attending college and having a student can be very demanding for a year but it is possible. We are paid substantive H grade once qualified and colleagues respect that knowing what has gone into getting there. Reduced caseloads do not happen! However, as we are now moving into working in geographical teams around primary school/secondary school pyramids there may be opportunities to barter around workloads especially in the first module when teaching and supervision is at its most intense. There will also be greater flexibility for student experiences and for CPTs to provide a wider role to the team itself and any other students. Theory must inform practice and and this needs specialist teaching, assessing supervision skills and personal characteristics to do the role justice and be effective. It really worries me when the CPT role is handed out ad hoc on the basis that someone has a degree and is available, it's not something you can just step into without properly considering what it means in it's widest sense to the student, practitioner, employer and the profession.

Re: HV Banding

Yes I feel the same, that our pct are getting their moneys worth out of us mentors (cpts). There are currently 6 of us working in this role, but have been told that it may not continue if we don't have as many students in September. We have recently been told that our pct has money for 3 students, meaning that 3 of us will return to our 'G' band 6 grade. We are waiting to meet with our Director of Nursing to discuss the opportunities for cpts without students. Like taking forward professional development, standing in for managers, interviewing etc, etc, etc. In Enfield we manage other skillmix staff also and do not have a reduced caseload if we are mentoring. My caseload is currently 520 families, this is grossly unfair on my student and gives me no time to develop an effective programme for my student. We have an up hill battle to ensure fairness here and it is very disheartening to hear that other trusts have rewarded colleagues justly. (I think good for those who have band 7, we should all strive for the same). Kathy

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[Guest guest]

From Lund-Lack

One of the most important issues for me as a CPT or SPT Specialist PracticeTeacher (SPT) as we call ourselves locally, is that if this role is to be undertaken then the practitioner must have the appropriate preparation. For us locally and I know it happens in other PCTs it means doing the PGCE or PGDE thus embarking on the Practice Educator pathway and keeping in line with NMC guidelines. This gives the necessary knowledge and skills as well credence and authority to the role. It's no good fulfilling a teaching and assessing role and having no appropriate academic standing to back it. There should not be a short cut into an H grade for this role. I feel very strongly about this as I know what difference it makes to the CPT and most importantly, the student. Employersrecognisethe academic achievement we've gained and consider that we have additional skills that can be put to good use when we do not have students. In fact we always try to have a 'spare CPT' so that there is back up if a problem arises with a placement and the spare CPT also is delegated responsibilities for the recruitment process for the following academic year. We are all seen as senior practitioners and provide a advisory and leadership role by our managers. We have monthly meetings with our manager to discuss practice/education issues. Those wishing to become a CPT have to apply and be interviewed and are then funded onto the PGCE pathway. The one issue that arises with this is that running a caseload, attending college and having a student can be very demanding for a year but it is possible. We are paid substantive H grade once qualified and colleagues respect that knowing what has gone into getting there. Reduced caseloads do not happen! However, as we are now moving into working in geographical teams around primary school/secondary school pyramids there may be opportunities to barter around workloads especially in the first module when teaching and supervision is at its most intense. There will also be greater flexibility for student experiences and for CPTs to provide a wider role to the team itself and any other students. Theory must inform practice and and this needs specialist teaching, assessing supervision skills and personal characteristics to do the role justice and be effective. It really worries me when the CPT role is handed out ad hoc on the basis that someone has a degree and is available, it's not something you can just step into without properly considering what it means in it's widest sense to the student, practitioner, employer and the profession.

Re: HV Banding

Yes I feel the same, that our pct are getting their moneys worth out of us mentors (cpts). There are currently 6 of us working in this role, but have been told that it may not continue if we don't have as many students in September. We have recently been told that our pct has money for 3 students, meaning that 3 of us will return to our 'G' band 6 grade. We are waiting to meet with our Director of Nursing to discuss the opportunities for cpts without students. Like taking forward professional development, standing in for managers, interviewing etc, etc, etc. In Enfield we manage other skillmix staff also and do not have a reduced caseload if we are mentoring. My caseload is currently 520 families, this is grossly unfair on my student and gives me no time to develop an effective programme for my student. We have an up hill battle to ensure fairness here and it is very disheartening to hear that other trusts have rewarded colleagues justly. (I think good for those who have band 7, we should all strive for the same). Kathy

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[Guest guest]

I agree with your sentiments . I think that the CPT role and level of

responsibility is being eroded by some trusts. In ours we operate a similar

system to your own. In other areas health visitors should be campaigning for

the role recognition.

Alison

-----Original

Message-----

From: Tom Lund-Lack

[mailto:tcll@...]

Sent: 02 April, 2005 11:48

Subject: Re: HV

Banding

From

Lund-Lack

One of

the most important issues for me as a CPT or SPT Specialist PracticeTeacher

(SPT) as we call ourselves locally, is that if this role is to be

undertaken then the practitioner must have the appropriate preparation. For us

locally and I know it happens in other PCTs it means doing the PGCE or

PGDE thus embarking on the Practice Educator pathway and keeping in

line with NMC guidelines. This gives the necessary knowledge and skills as

well credence and authority to the role. It's no good fulfilling a teaching and

assessing role and having no appropriate academic standing to back

it. There should not be a short cut into an H grade for this

role. I feel very strongly about this as I know what difference it makes to

the CPT and most importantly, the student. Employersrecognisethe academic

achievement we've gained and consider that we have additional skills that can

be put to good use when we do not have students. In fact we always try to have

a 'spare CPT' so that there is back up if a problem arises with a placement and

the spare CPT also is delegated responsibilities for the recruitment process

for the following academic year. We are all seen as senior practitioners and

provide a advisory and leadership role by our managers. We have monthly

meetings with our manager to discuss practice/education issues. Those wishing

to become a CPT have to apply and be interviewed and are then funded onto the

PGCE pathway. The one issue that arises with this is that running a caseload,

attending college and having a student can be very demanding for a year but it

is possible. We are paid substantive H grade once qualified and colleagues

respect that knowing what has gone into getting there. Reduced caseloads do not

happen! However, as we are now moving into working in geographical teams around

primary school/secondary school pyramids there may be opportunities to barter

around workloads especially in the first module when teaching and supervision

is at its most intense. There will also be greater flexibility for student

experiences and for CPTs to provide a wider role to the team itself and any

other students. Theory must inform practice and and this needs specialist

teaching, assessing supervision skills and personal characteristics to do the

role justice and be effective. It really worries me when the CPT role is handed

out ad hoc on the basis that someone has a degree and is available, it's not

something you can just step into without properly considering what it means in

it's widest sense to the student, practitioner, employer and the profession.

-----

Original Message -----

From: kms160360@...

Sent: Saturday, April 02,

2005 11:07 AM

Subject: Re:

HV Banding

Yes I feel the same, that our pct are getting their moneys worth

out of us mentors (cpts). There are currently 6 of us working in this role, but

have been told that it may not continue if we don't have as many students in

September. We have recently been told that our pct has money for 3 students,

meaning that 3 of us will return to our 'G' band 6 grade. We are waiting to

meet with our Director of Nursing to discuss the opportunities for cpts without

students. Like taking forward professional development, standing in for

managers, interviewing etc, etc, etc. In Enfield we manage other skillmix staff

also and do not have a reduced caseload if we are mentoring. My caseload is

currently 520 families, this is grossly unfair on my student and gives me no

time to develop an effective programme for my student. We have an up hill

battle to ensure fairness here and it is very disheartening to hear that other

trusts have rewarded colleagues justly. (I think good for those who have band

7, we should all strive for the same). Kathy

No

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[Guest guest]

, I fully agree with what you say. Our trust stance is that you do not need a teaching qualification to mentor the future HVs we should all be able to do it, so it could be a different HV each year!!! I dread to think what quality of Health Visitor we would get if it continues to happen this way. I would love to do the PGCE or equivilent, I have a few years teaching experience before i came into Health Visiting, as a clinical practice teacher in hospital. I and my 'CPT' colleagues see the role developing further as I mentioned before, perhaps our Director will also see the value in this when we have our meeting. Kathy

[Guest guest]

Yes as I relied to , we are trying hard in Enfield to do just that.

[Guest guest]

Yes as I relied to , we are trying hard in Enfield to do just that.

[Guest guest]

From Lund-Lack

I think your Trust needs to take on board the NMC guidance and also consider the rigorous standards set by Clinical Governance policy. Quality of education and training underpins the whole of NHS practice. I'ts strange that some things like health and safety are taken to the nth degree and yet clinical practice issues can be treated in an almost cavalier fashion. What's worse is that practitioners are not demanding to have the proper preparation. If they were to refuse to have students without the necessary training it could be a powerful tool to persuade trustsparticularly if they are exerting undue pressure on practitioners. Just refer to the NMC and enough said. However, I fear that the temptation of a short cut to an H grade is too tempting for some. After all we all like the extra money especially if it's not too hard to get.

Cynic or what!

Re: HV Banding

, I fully agree with what you say. Our trust stance is that you do not need a teaching qualification to mentor the future HVs we should all be able to do it, so it could be a different HV each year!!! I dread to think what quality of Health Visitor we would get if it continues to happen this way. I would love to do the PGCE or equivilent, I have a few years teaching experience before i came into Health Visiting, as a clinical practice teacher in hospital. I and my 'CPT' colleagues see the role developing further as I mentioned before, perhaps our Director will also see the value in this when we have our meeting. Kathy

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[Guest guest]

From Lund-Lack

I think your Trust needs to take on board the NMC guidance and also consider the rigorous standards set by Clinical Governance policy. Quality of education and training underpins the whole of NHS practice. I'ts strange that some things like health and safety are taken to the nth degree and yet clinical practice issues can be treated in an almost cavalier fashion. What's worse is that practitioners are not demanding to have the proper preparation. If they were to refuse to have students without the necessary training it could be a powerful tool to persuade trustsparticularly if they are exerting undue pressure on practitioners. Just refer to the NMC and enough said. However, I fear that the temptation of a short cut to an H grade is too tempting for some. After all we all like the extra money especially if it's not too hard to get.

Cynic or what!

Re: HV Banding

, I fully agree with what you say. Our trust stance is that you do not need a teaching qualification to mentor the future HVs we should all be able to do it, so it could be a different HV each year!!! I dread to think what quality of Health Visitor we would get if it continues to happen this way. I would love to do the PGCE or equivilent, I have a few years teaching experience before i came into Health Visiting, as a clinical practice teacher in hospital. I and my 'CPT' colleagues see the role developing further as I mentioned before, perhaps our Director will also see the value in this when we have our meeting. Kathy

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[Guest guest]

I agree, and Kathy. Health visitor education has suffered numerous

losses and attacks on it in recent years, mainly due to the absolute determination

to promote nursing education instead, with the implication that we all have

to learn the same things and in the same way as pre and post registration

nurses.

However, one clear gain made when the NMC3 register was set up, was the specific

guidance about 'student support,' covering both practice and theory. The

old guidance that came in in 1995, (which was when the requirement for a

specifically prepared teacher in practice settings was discarded) has been

reversed in the new guidance. In case anyone is looking for it, the full

NMC3 standards can be downloaded from the NMC website, but the actual standard

is Standard 7, which states categorically that:

"The NMC requires educators to be prepared to meet the outcomes defined in

its Standards for the preparation of teachers of nursing and midwifery. Students

should be supported in both academic and practice learning environments by

appropriately qualified teachers. It is expected that teachers in the practice

field, as well as those leading academic programmes, will hold qualifications

and experience relevant for the area of practice in which they are supporting

students, as they will be required to contribute to summative assessments."

It goes on to give clear guidance about what is meant by ‘Appropriately qualified

teachers,’ who are (my added emphasis)

"those who hold practice qualifications in the same area of practice as the

qualification sought by the students they are supporting, AND who meet the

standards for teaching required by the NMC. Audits of both the academic

and practice learning environments should identify the number and nature

of students that may be effectively supported by a single, appropriately

qualified teacher."

There is an additional rationale, which explains:

"- Students should be supported in both academic and practice learning environments

by teachers who are ‘appropriately qualified’. Guidance about what constitutes

an ‘appropriately qualified teacher’ is given along with an expectation that

the academic and practice areas be audited to identify how many students

can be supported by a single practitioner.

-This guidance is intended to provide programme planners and those approving

programmes on behalf of the NMC, with a strong steer about the expectations

held by the NMC about the nature of student support to be considered ‘appropriate’;

that is, for example, someone with the same practice qualification and who

meets the recognised NMC standards for teachers when setting up and running

programmes. Given the shortage of qualified teachers who are also school

nurses, occupational health nurses, and public health nurses, precise ratios

cannot be given for those areas of practice. However, the NMC will expect

that each student will have unlimited access to a practitioner with an appropriate

qualification and experience in their chosen area of practice.

- The level of qualification held by teachers in the practice setting needs

to take into account that the practice teacher must co-ordinate a sophisticated

programme of student experience in the practice field through the entirety

of the programme, a function carried out by university lecturers in pre-registration

nursing and midwifery programmes, and contribute in large measure to summative

assessment and the decision of whether or not to register the student."

Mentor training is not considered sufficient and would not count as an 'appropriate'

level of qualification to meet the expectation in this final paragraph. Until

the new standards for teaching in practice are approved (still under discussion

at Council, I think, unless I have missed them), the former CPT qualification,

or the practice educator/PGCE or PGDE is the expectation.

So, you are right ; unless those proposing new programmes can clearly

demonstrate that they have in place suitable arrangements for supporting

students in practice with 'approriately qualified' teachers, the programme

may not be validated. We are in a transitional phase, with most universities

still operating under the old standards, but they will all be preparing for

the change. Of course, it may be that some Trusts will just decide not to

meet these standards, and not to support students in practice, particularly

where recruitment is not an issue. It would then be up to local workforce

confederations to ensure that they all pull their weight, but I am not sure

that they (or the Trusts) are really up to speed on the new requirements

yet.

best wishes

Tom Lund-Lack wrote:

From Lund-Lack

I think your Trust needs to take on board the NMC guidance and also

consider the rigorous standards set by Clinical Governance policy. Quality

of education and training underpins the whole of NHS practice. I'ts strange

that some things like health and safety are taken to the nth degree and

yet clinical practice issues can be treated in an almost cavalier fashion.

What's worse is that practitioners are not demanding to have the proper

preparation. If they were to refuse to have students without the necessary

training it could be a powerful tool to persuade trustsparticularly if

they are exerting undue pressure on practitioners. Just refer to the NMC

and enough said. However, I fear that the temptation of a short cut to

an H grade is too tempting for some. After all we all like the extra money

especially if it's not too hard to get.

Cynic or what!

Re: HV Banding

, I fully agree with what you say. Our trust stance is that

you do not need a teaching qualification to mentor the future HVs we

should all be able to do it, so it could be a different HV each year!!!

I dread to think what quality of Health Visitor we would get if it continues

to happen this way. I would love to do the PGCE or equivilent, I have

a few years teaching experience before i came into Health Visiting,

as a clinical practice teacher in hospital. I and my 'CPT' colleagues

see the role developing further as I mentioned before, perhaps our Director

will also see the value in this when we have our meeting. Kathy

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[Guest guest]

June, how wonderful that, for once, there is good news from your Trust. Congratulations

to you all. I suspect the management issue is the thing that swung it. Managing

a caseload (however complex that is, and it is complex!) is not acknowledged

in the same way as managing people. Are there other important arguments that

anyone has managed to make, to push HVs onto band 7? I heard someone comment

recently that most G grades are being assimilated onto Band 7. But I am

sure that is not a sufficient argument for the majority of trusts, however

much we might wish it was.

best wishes

junet579@... wrote:

HI

I don't know what trust you work for but here in Islington HVs have

been awarded Band 7 which we are really thrilled about, especially as we

have a severe shortage of HVs and recruitment is very difficult.

It was our managers who fought this for us - our job description was

revised and most of us are also line managers to one or 2 skillmix staff

such as nursery nurses, staff nurses and health care assistants

June

[Guest guest]

June, how wonderful that, for once, there is good news from your Trust. Congratulations

to you all. I suspect the management issue is the thing that swung it. Managing

a caseload (however complex that is, and it is complex!) is not acknowledged

in the same way as managing people. Are there other important arguments that

anyone has managed to make, to push HVs onto band 7? I heard someone comment

recently that most G grades are being assimilated onto Band 7. But I am

sure that is not a sufficient argument for the majority of trusts, however

much we might wish it was.

best wishes

junet579@... wrote:

HI

I don't know what trust you work for but here in Islington HVs have

been awarded Band 7 which we are really thrilled about, especially as we

have a severe shortage of HVs and recruitment is very difficult.

It was our managers who fought this for us - our job description was

revised and most of us are also line managers to one or 2 skillmix staff

such as nursery nurses, staff nurses and health care assistants

June

[Guest guest]

Hi,

In replying to your posting, I am a CPT and have been banded a 7. We

recieve our H (or 7) whether or not we have a student and have been

renamed Practice Development Facilitator, We are expected to work on

practice development and policies particularly when we don't have a

student as a way of uustifying our grading and to prefent reverting

to a lower grade without a student . This way the trust benefits and

so do we!

-- In , kms160360@a... wrote:

> Yes I feel the same, that our pct are getting their moneys worth

out of us

> mentors (cpts). There are currently 6 of us working in this role,

but have been

> told that it may not continue if we don't have as many students

in

> September. We have recently been told that our pct has money for

3 students, meaning

> that 3 of us will return to our 'G' band 6 grade. We are waiting

to meet with

> our Director of Nursing to discuss the opportunities for cpts

without

> students. Like taking forward professional development, standing

in for managers,

> interviewing etc, etc, etc. In Enfield we manage other skillmix

staff also and

> do not have a reduced caseload if we are mentoring. My caseload

is currently

> 520 families, this is grossly unfair on my student and gives me

no time to

> develop an effective programme for my student. We have an up hill

battle to

> ensure fairness here and it is very disheartening to hear that

other trusts have

> rewarded colleagues justly. (I think good for those who have band

7, we

> should all strive for the same). Kathy

[Guest guest]

Hi,

In replying to your posting, I am a CPT and have been banded a 7. We

recieve our H (or 7) whether or not we have a student and have been

renamed Practice Development Facilitator, We are expected to work on

practice development and policies particularly when we don't have a

student as a way of uustifying our grading and to prefent reverting

to a lower grade without a student . This way the trust benefits and

so do we!

-- In , kms160360@a... wrote:

> Yes I feel the same, that our pct are getting their moneys worth

out of us

> mentors (cpts). There are currently 6 of us working in this role,

but have been

> told that it may not continue if we don't have as many students

in

> September. We have recently been told that our pct has money for

3 students, meaning

> that 3 of us will return to our 'G' band 6 grade. We are waiting

to meet with

> our Director of Nursing to discuss the opportunities for cpts

without

> students. Like taking forward professional development, standing

in for managers,

> interviewing etc, etc, etc. In Enfield we manage other skillmix

staff also and

> do not have a reduced caseload if we are mentoring. My caseload

is currently

> 520 families, this is grossly unfair on my student and gives me

no time to

> develop an effective programme for my student. We have an up hill

battle to

> ensure fairness here and it is very disheartening to hear that

other trusts have

> rewarded colleagues justly. (I think good for those who have band

7, we

> should all strive for the same). Kathy

[Guest guest]

I would also find it interesting to see the differences in J.Ds between those of us who have been banded 6 & those who have been awarded 7. Do we actually do different work/have different responsibilities (that are not accounted for by the differences in caseload sizes which is usually reflected by recuitment/retention influences rather then the content of the JD) or is it all in how the JD is worded?? What have been the key differences between 6 & 7, skill-mix teams, corporate caseloads?? Surely as says it would have been better for AfC to have had a unified approach to the JD. In Trusts where HVs have been awarded 6, what have the practice teachers & other specialist roles been awarded?

How are we going to standardise this process? We are going to ask for a review, what are others on a 6 going to do???

Dalton <.Dalton@...> wrote:

Interesting re: disparities between 6 and 7 and differing PCT’s. Can anyone share the differences? Are band 7 HV’s specialist posts? Band 6 generalists? Is there a stronger managerial responsibility e.g. budget holder etc?

I remember Mark (CPHVA conference 2003) saying that there was no ‘average’ health visitor when it came to describing the HV role and I took that to mean that one job description did not fit all. I appreciated Mark’s comment at that time and tended to agree. On reflection a lot of man hours have been spent writing job descriptions by individual PCT’s and AFC generally. A unified approach may have been more effective. Job descriptions could then have been modified for individual PCT’s if required.

Kathy, the issue around mentorship is an interesting one too. Practice teachers seem to fall into band H/7. Mentors are being used as practice teachers but in some trusts are not paid H but G. Kathy, I feel you are either a G or H not a split grade! Regardless of whether your student is part time or not you are still having to mentor a student (although you are probably really enjoying the role) but your skills are transferable too and the trust are reaping the benefits of your expertise to peers and the organization as well.

I wonder if any mentors have been banded 7?

We are lucky that we don’t have a staffing problem in my trust, but I know that my health visiting colleagues would be very demoralized if they were not awarded the same banding for doing the same job as another trust.

It would be useful to see job descriptions for both HV and SN’s for band 6 and band 7.

Does any one else find banding such hard work? Maybe not the HV’s who are band 7 … and that’s a really positive move.

Dalton

-----Original Message-----From: kms160360@... [mailto:kms160360@...] Sent: 01 April 2005 11:14 Subject: Re: HV Banding

Hi here in Enfield we have been assimilated to band 6 also. As I work as a mentor for an HV student, I get paid half band 6 and half an 'H' as that part has not been assimilated yet. Myself and colleagues wait with something that I would not call optimism to see where we are, (My student is part-time thats why I get half and half). I too would be interested how the lucky hvs who got awarded a 7 managed it. Does anyone have copies of job descriptions, job outlines etc to send me to compare? Kathy Soderquist

[Guest guest]

I would also find it interesting to see the differences in J.Ds between those of us who have been banded 6 & those who have been awarded 7. Do we actually do different work/have different responsibilities (that are not accounted for by the differences in caseload sizes which is usually reflected by recuitment/retention influences rather then the content of the JD) or is it all in how the JD is worded?? What have been the key differences between 6 & 7, skill-mix teams, corporate caseloads?? Surely as says it would have been better for AfC to have had a unified approach to the JD. In Trusts where HVs have been awarded 6, what have the practice teachers & other specialist roles been awarded?

How are we going to standardise this process? We are going to ask for a review, what are others on a 6 going to do???

Dalton <.Dalton@...> wrote:

Interesting re: disparities between 6 and 7 and differing PCT’s. Can anyone share the differences? Are band 7 HV’s specialist posts? Band 6 generalists? Is there a stronger managerial responsibility e.g. budget holder etc?

I remember Mark (CPHVA conference 2003) saying that there was no ‘average’ health visitor when it came to describing the HV role and I took that to mean that one job description did not fit all. I appreciated Mark’s comment at that time and tended to agree. On reflection a lot of man hours have been spent writing job descriptions by individual PCT’s and AFC generally. A unified approach may have been more effective. Job descriptions could then have been modified for individual PCT’s if required.

Kathy, the issue around mentorship is an interesting one too. Practice teachers seem to fall into band H/7. Mentors are being used as practice teachers but in some trusts are not paid H but G. Kathy, I feel you are either a G or H not a split grade! Regardless of whether your student is part time or not you are still having to mentor a student (although you are probably really enjoying the role) but your skills are transferable too and the trust are reaping the benefits of your expertise to peers and the organization as well.

I wonder if any mentors have been banded 7?

We are lucky that we don’t have a staffing problem in my trust, but I know that my health visiting colleagues would be very demoralized if they were not awarded the same banding for doing the same job as another trust.

It would be useful to see job descriptions for both HV and SN’s for band 6 and band 7.

Does any one else find banding such hard work? Maybe not the HV’s who are band 7 … and that’s a really positive move.

Dalton

-----Original Message-----From: kms160360@... [mailto:kms160360@...] Sent: 01 April 2005 11:14 Subject: Re: HV Banding

Hi here in Enfield we have been assimilated to band 6 also. As I work as a mentor for an HV student, I get paid half band 6 and half an 'H' as that part has not been assimilated yet. Myself and colleagues wait with something that I would not call optimism to see where we are, (My student is part-time thats why I get half and half). I too would be interested how the lucky hvs who got awarded a 7 managed it. Does anyone have copies of job descriptions, job outlines etc to send me to compare? Kathy Soderquist

[Guest guest]

Unfortuneately here in Enfield we are in outer London, we do get a proportion of the inner city social problems in parts of the borough and never get the funding. Gun crime, drugs, prostitution, asylum seekers and professionals with pnd are some of the range of work we have here. If, as I have previously commented, we were to get banded the same throughout the country, maybe we would feel we could 'Liberate Our Talents' as requested by the powers that be and become more community focused, rather than individual problem focused. We have the expertise here, just not the time or head room to think about how to use it best. Moral seems to be always pretty low, we have heard the same spin on how to move forward for years. We have recently had workshops to ask us how we want to move the childrens and young peoples services forward, lots of great ideas came out, but lots of cynicism too, sorry to moan on but I am on leave this week so I suppose I have time to think and respond. Kathy

[Guest guest]

Unfortuneately here in Enfield we are in outer London, we do get a proportion of the inner city social problems in parts of the borough and never get the funding. Gun crime, drugs, prostitution, asylum seekers and professionals with pnd are some of the range of work we have here. If, as I have previously commented, we were to get banded the same throughout the country, maybe we would feel we could 'Liberate Our Talents' as requested by the powers that be and become more community focused, rather than individual problem focused. We have the expertise here, just not the time or head room to think about how to use it best. Moral seems to be always pretty low, we have heard the same spin on how to move forward for years. We have recently had workshops to ask us how we want to move the childrens and young peoples services forward, lots of great ideas came out, but lots of cynicism too, sorry to moan on but I am on leave this week so I suppose I have time to think and respond. Kathy

[Guest guest]

This is an interesting discussion and from my perspective - I feel several things are going on here.

In the positive where health visiting is understood by senior managers and is strongly led - there will be an understanding of the role and functions, its need and what it can achieve to meet targets and I guess a more developed role as policy would advocate which would fit the banding for 7 - where there is the reverse the development - although it may be in pockets - is less likely and with little understanding at senior levels of the role automatically there will be an inclination to band at 6 as suggested.

From a more cynical stance - in London it is difficult to get HVs and it maybe that senior managers have worked hard to raise the level to 7 to try and ensure they recruit - of course in London what will happen is that Hvs will move to areas which are banded at 7 form those at 6 so we may see a rise in banding by default. However, those HVs banded at 7 I guess will be required to take a real responsibility for their team and do much more in terms of community work and so on than they perhaps have previously.

My third thought is that the differences in bandings may be used to move people on, ensure staff develop and really as needs to happen develop qualified HV and SN roles - my sense is that if roles really developed as they could across communities and across the wider partnership and health and social care agenda - it would be automatic to place team leaders on 7. Perhaps we will see HVs on different levels according to their levels of experience and the responsibilities they are prepared to take and exercise.

Lots to think about

Margaret

RE: HV Banding

I would also find it interesting to see the differences in J.Ds between those of us who have been banded 6 & those who have been awarded 7. Do we actually do different work/have different responsibilities (that are not accounted for by the differences in caseload sizes which is usually reflected by recuitment/retention influences rather then the content of the JD) or is it all in how the JD is worded?? What have been the key differences between 6 & 7, skill-mix teams, corporate caseloads?? Surely as says it would have been better for AfC to have had a unified approach to the JD. In Trusts where HVs have been awarded 6, what have the practice teachers & other specialist roles been awarded?

How are we going to standardise this process? We are going to ask for a review, what are others on a 6 going to do???

Dalton <.Dalton@...> wrote:

Interesting re: disparities between 6 and 7 and differing PCT’s. Can anyone share the differences? Are band 7 HV’s specialist posts? Band 6 generalists? Is there a stronger managerial responsibility e.g. budget holder etc?

I remember Mark (CPHVA conference 2003) saying that there was no ‘average’ health visitor when it came to describing the HV role and I took that to mean that one job description did not fit all. I appreciated Mark’s comment at that time and tended to agree. On reflection a lot of man hours have been spent writing job descriptions by individual PCT’s and AFC generally. A unified approach may have been more effective. Job descriptions could then have been modified for individual PCT’s if required.

Kathy, the issue around mentorship is an interesting one too. Practice teachers seem to fall into band H/7. Mentors are being used as practice teachers but in some trusts are not paid H but G. Kathy, I feel you are either a G or H not a split grade! Regardless of whether your student is part time or not you are still having to mentor a student (although you are probably really enjoying the role) but your skills are transferable too and the trust are reaping the benefits of your expertise to peers and the organization as well.

I wonder if any mentors have been banded 7?

We are lucky that we don’t have a staffing problem in my trust, but I know that my health visiting colleagues would be very demoralized if they were not awarded the same banding for doing the same job as another trust.

It would be useful to see job descriptions for both HV and SN’s for band 6 and band 7.

Does any one else find banding such hard work? Maybe not the HV’s who are band 7 … and that’s a really positive move.

Dalton

-----Original Message-----From: kms160360@... [mailto:kms160360@...] Sent: 01 April 2005 11:14 Subject: Re: HV Banding

Hi here in Enfield we have been assimilated to band 6 also. As I work as a mentor for an HV student, I get paid half band 6 and half an 'H' as that part has not been assimilated yet. Myself and colleagues wait with something that I would not call optimism to see where we are, (My student is part-time thats why I get half and half). I too would be interested how the lucky hvs who got awarded a 7 managed it. Does anyone have copies of job descriptions, job outlines etc to send me to compare? Kathy Soderquist

[Guest guest]

HI Kathy

What you are expressing is exactly what I find happens when you work in PCT with all groups of community staff - workshops I find are okay but the change that is needed - needs to be led and developed over time with on-going support and development and with plenty of opportunities for staff to get out their concerns. I did work around school nursing in an outer London borough a couple of years ago where the change is now really happening and where interestingly a school nurse team member said recently to the manager - "when Margaret talked about how it could be I never believed her, but now I can see it and see what she meant"

For me - I find the real change and implementation happens when someone is appointed to specifically lead it , with time to deal with the concerns and with the authority to make the changes required not just in practice but also more widely across the organisation and out into others. When I do review work I always insist I see a wide variety of stakeholders as sometimes others are the saboteurs not the practitioners.

what are they going to do with the ideas and cynicism in yourPCT?

Margaret

Re: HV Banding

Unfortuneately here in Enfield we are in outer London, we do get a proportion of the inner city social problems in parts of the borough and never get the funding. Gun crime, drugs, prostitution, asylum seekers and professionals with pnd are some of the range of work we have here. If, as I have previously commented, we were to get banded the same throughout the country, maybe we would feel we could 'Liberate Our Talents' as requested by the powers that be and become more community focused, rather than individual problem focused. We have the expertise here, just not the time or head room to think about how to use it best. Moral seems to be always pretty low, we have heard the same spin on how to move forward for years. We have recently had workshops to ask us how we want to move the childrens and young peoples services forward, lots of great ideas came out, but lots of cynicism too, sorry to moan on but I am on leave this week so I suppose I have time to think and respond. Kathy

[Guest guest]

HI Kathy

What you are expressing is exactly what I find happens when you work in PCT with all groups of community staff - workshops I find are okay but the change that is needed - needs to be led and developed over time with on-going support and development and with plenty of opportunities for staff to get out their concerns. I did work around school nursing in an outer London borough a couple of years ago where the change is now really happening and where interestingly a school nurse team member said recently to the manager - "when Margaret talked about how it could be I never believed her, but now I can see it and see what she meant"

For me - I find the real change and implementation happens when someone is appointed to specifically lead it , with time to deal with the concerns and with the authority to make the changes required not just in practice but also more widely across the organisation and out into others. When I do review work I always insist I see a wide variety of stakeholders as sometimes others are the saboteurs not the practitioners.

what are they going to do with the ideas and cynicism in yourPCT?

Margaret

Re: HV Banding

Unfortuneately here in Enfield we are in outer London, we do get a proportion of the inner city social problems in parts of the borough and never get the funding. Gun crime, drugs, prostitution, asylum seekers and professionals with pnd are some of the range of work we have here. If, as I have previously commented, we were to get banded the same throughout the country, maybe we would feel we could 'Liberate Our Talents' as requested by the powers that be and become more community focused, rather than individual problem focused. We have the expertise here, just not the time or head room to think about how to use it best. Moral seems to be always pretty low, we have heard the same spin on how to move forward for years. We have recently had workshops to ask us how we want to move the childrens and young peoples services forward, lots of great ideas came out, but lots of cynicism too, sorry to moan on but I am on leave this week so I suppose I have time to think and respond. Kathy