Re: Reaching Out: Think Fathers in Families

[Guest guest]

Thanks for this link. A year on I am still beavering away with the Fathers Art Project in Bath, trying to attract fathers who are at home in the day to come and be creative in a variety of ways on their estate. These are the most vulnerable men I come across in that they are discouraged men (disabled by their circumstances), failed by the education system, not working much, often involved in drugs, ex-offenders or tagged, may be involved in domestic violence and child protection proceedings and sometimes separated from their families or caring for children alone. I am too tired to write much more than to say that it is very hard work. It is founded on a health visiting relationship built because they have young children. They are harder to engage than their partners in the sister group (although it is slowly possible). Their habitual way of living in the moment means they intend turning up

(I believe) but get side tracked on the day or can't be arsed. Patience and perserverence and not giving up on them without being a critical nag requires qualities that I think might be hard to sustain for very long. I am constantly phoning, writing, knocking on doors, encouraging and responding in anyway that feels useful, often egged on by their partners who wish their blokes would show more committment to anything useful. We change direction, try new ideas, use theirs, cope with dissent. There are magic moments and my heart soars when we enjoy being together doing something, dispersed between the heart sink times when I am still surprised when they don't turn up and surprised again when they do, or they wander in to apologise or to ask a favour. I actually don't mind as much that they don't do art, come on a picnic at the beach or whatever as much as I care that they find it worth coming at

all. I cannot see this ever becoming mainstream health visiting because it is so exhausting. I have learnt so much about men over the last year, particularly discouraged ones and it has been worth the effort. I can imagine questions such as why men, why not families? What do we do? Who pays? Another day for writing all the details. Your link shows me there is not much going on for fathers such as these and the art projects around seem to be for mentally ill men, homeless or captive (imprisoned) or or because they have to attend under a compulsion order, which I found complicates the relationships and is different from those one tries to establish in health visiting. I believe we are onto something good but it is really hard to achieve. Robyn Bidmead <christine@...> wrote: Please see a web link below to access this report released by the Social Exclusion unit todayhttp://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/social_exclusion_task_force/families_at_risk/reaching_out_summary.aspBest wishes,

Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Guest guest]

Dear Robyn

take heart! I recently set out to interview fathers from backgrounds where there

were more likely to be risks for child abuse. It took about 1 year to find 3

groups for men, and then the story was of groups just closed or just struggling

to get going. You are at the forefront of father work which takes enourmous

dedication to persevere with and the development of a whole new range of skills.

After this work my hv colleague gets approached in clinic by fathers and asked

if she is the hv for Dads? I think the normalising of communicating with fathers

as people in their own right, not problems, will help bring them into more

mainstream focus but it also will need champions to change the emphasis in care

from what is essentially a mother dominated -in the sense of who is addressed in

the literture handed out and who is the focus of appointments- to make such

changes. It will take commitment, specific funding and recognition of outcomes

to be measured in terms of achievement.

Dr Coles PhD BA RHV RGN

Honorary Senior Research Fellow

Department of Child Health

Cardiff School of Medicine

Cardiff University

Heath Park

Cardiff CF14 4XN

Telephone: Department Secretary 02920 743374/5

>>> Robyn Pound <robyn_pound@...> 19/06/07 5:46 PM >>>

Thanks for this link. A year on I am still beavering away with the

Fathers Art Project in Bath, trying to attract fathers who are at home in the

day to come and be creative in a variety of ways on their estate. These are the

most vulnerable men I come across in that they are discouraged men (disabled by

their circumstances), failed by the education system, not working much, often

involved in drugs, ex-offenders or tagged, may be involved in domestic violence

and child protection proceedings and sometimes separated from their families or

caring for children alone. I am too tired to write much more than to say that

it is very hard work.

It is founded on a health visiting relationship built because they have young

children. They are harder to engage than their partners in the sister group

(although it is slowly possible). Their habitual way of living in the moment

means they intend turning up (I believe) but get side tracked on the day or

can't be arsed. Patience and perserverence and not giving up on them without

being a critical nag requires qualities that I think might be hard to sustain

for very long. I am constantly phoning, writing, knocking on doors, encouraging

and responding in anyway that feels useful, often egged on by their partners who

wish their blokes would show more committment to anything useful. We change

direction, try new ideas, use theirs, cope with dissent.

There are magic moments and my heart soars when we enjoy being together doing

something, dispersed between the heart sink times when I am still surprised when

they don't turn up and surprised again when they do, or they wander in to

apologise or to ask a favour. I actually don't mind as much that they don't do

art, come on a picnic at the beach or whatever as much as I care that they find

it worth coming at all. I cannot see this ever becoming mainstream health

visiting because it is so exhausting. I have learnt so much about men over the

last year, particularly discouraged ones and it has been worth the effort. I

can imagine questions such as why men, why not families? What do we do? Who

pays? Another day for writing all the details.

Your link shows me there is not much going on for fathers such as

these and the art projects around seem to be for mentally ill men, homeless or

captive (imprisoned) or or because they have to attend under a compulsion order,

which I found complicates the relationships and is different from those one

tries to establish in health visiting. I believe we are onto something good but

it is really hard to achieve.

Robyn

Bidmead <christine@...> wrote:

Please see a web link below to access this report released by the

Social

Exclusion unit today

http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/social_exclusion_task_force/families_at_risk/rea\

ching_out_summary.asp

Best wishes,

---------------------------------

Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Guest guest]

Dear Robyn I do hope you're getting support from your colleagues and peers...you sound so deflated and isolated! Your work comes from the heart and that is sometimes all the harder to deal with when you don't see much outcome for a lot of effort. We have a specific Young Fathers Worker attached to our Surestart centre, who has similar probs to those you describe. However by visiting the venues he knows the young dads frequent (which means pubs, snooker halls etc) he has manged to "key in" with the dads and offer a service that they have chosen rather than one that was being based on our perception of their need. Hope this helps LesleyRobyn Pound <robyn_pound@...> wrote: Thanks for this link. A year on I am still beavering away with the Fathers Art Project in Bath, trying to attract fathers who are at home in the day to come and be creative in a variety of ways on their estate. These are the most vulnerable men I come across in that they are discouraged men (disabled by their circumstances), failed by the education system, not working much, often involved in drugs, ex-offenders or tagged, may be involved in domestic violence and child protection proceedings and sometimes separated from their families or caring for children alone. I am too tired to write much more than to say that it is very hard work. It is founded on a health visiting

relationship built because they have young children. They are harder to engage than their partners in the sister group (although it is slowly possible). Their habitual way of living in the moment means they intend turning up (I believe) but get side tracked on the day or can't be arsed. Patience and perserverence and not giving up on them without being a critical nag requires qualities that I think might be hard to sustain for very long. I am constantly phoning, writing, knocking on doors, encouraging and responding in anyway that feels useful, often egged on by their partners who wish their blokes would show more committment to anything useful. We change direction, try new ideas, use theirs, cope with dissent. There are magic moments and my heart soars when we enjoy being together doing something, dispersed between the heart sink times when I am still surprised when they don't turn up and surprised again

when they do, or they wander in to apologise or to ask a favour. I actually don't mind as much that they don't do art, come on a picnic at the beach or whatever as much as I care that they find it worth coming at all. I cannot see this ever becoming mainstream health visiting because it is so exhausting. I have learnt so much about men over the last year, particularly discouraged ones and it has been worth the effort. I can imagine questions such as why men, why not families? What do we do? Who pays? Another day for writing all the details. Your link shows me there is not much going on for fathers such as these and the art projects around seem to be for mentally ill men, homeless or captive (imprisoned) or or because they have to attend under a compulsion order, which I found complicates the relationships and is different from those one tries to establish in health

visiting. I believe we are onto something good but it is really hard to achieve. Robyn Bidmead <christinebidmead (DOT) f9.co.uk> wrote: Please see a web link below to access this report released by the Social Exclusion unit todayhttp://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/social_exclusion_task_force/families_at_risk/reaching_out_summary.aspBest wishes, Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel

today!

[Guest guest]

Lesley, Yes I had a male student nurse for three months (who now wants to be a health visitor!) who the men liked. On the picnic to the beach with their families (for which the nurse took a day out from his current hospital placement to come) they discovered they were all Bristol Rovers fans and had all been to Wembley to watch the recent play off. As an All Blacks fan I am really a polite joke! They have had their own kick around place on meadows near here. It lasted for months last year. Enthusiam waned when two people broke legs when the grass got long. (it is now cut regularly by the council - organised by them). Fear of each other is a big factor that keeps them indoors looking out at those dodgy people over there. 'I don't want my missus mixing with those people' can affect the girls group too. I usually have my scales in the car as a magnet. Several men have said

they don't want to make friends but are interested in the activities because they are bored. The girls seem to get over their fear of each other quicker in their group and form friendships and see each other at other times. I could write more about the part fear plays in people's lives. A third independently funded family group that has a creche and has been running for six+ years now doesn't grow much. I am sure it is because of this same wariness of who will be there. Unfortunately it is now on a day I cannot go. Flyers and sending people because its there is less effective. Getting people in the other two groups works because I am there and they know me (or each other) and it is a stepping stone from home visiting. It is a fascinating process that is intense and in the scale of things only touches a small proportion (albeit some of the most needy) of the health visiting caseload. My colleagues do most of the rest and I am grateful for that because postnatal depression and the rest gets a bit 'been there and done that' as the years go on. I have found it increasingly difficult to make a quick switch across the concerns of the classes and be as empathic for the worried well as is necessary (and I have done in spadeloads in the past) when I have just come back from the grinding anxt, fear and chaos of the other group - another interesting point about locaIity working if you are going to really get involved in what matters to people. I had better quickly state my unconditional support of a universal service however. I wouldn't be able to do this without cutting my teeth on the rest and it is keeping my head in all camps that gives me a constant over view of what society is like and what is 'normalish' and how things go wrong. The priviledge of health visiting for keeping real is constantly

obvious to me. I find I need to keep an eye on what other agencies want to provide in the groups because agenda-led activities (for their own outcomes) could act like fly-spray on a group (strange metaphor!). Robyn lesley baillie <lesleya.baillie@...> wrote: Dear Robyn I do hope you're getting support from your colleagues and peers...you sound so deflated and isolated! Your work comes from the heart and that is sometimes all the harder to deal

with when you don't see much outcome for a lot of effort. We have a specific Young Fathers Worker attached to our Surestart centre, who has similar probs to those you describe. However by visiting the venues he knows the young dads frequent (which means pubs, snooker halls etc) he has manged to "key in" with the dads and offer a service that they have chosen rather than one that was being based on our perception of their need. Hope this helps LesleyRobyn Pound <robyn_pound > wrote: Thanks for this link. A year on I am still beavering away with the Fathers Art Project in Bath, trying to attract fathers who are at home in the day to come and be creative in a variety of ways on their estate. These are the most vulnerable men I come across in

that they are discouraged men (disabled by their circumstances), failed by the education system, not working much, often involved in drugs, ex-offenders or tagged, may be involved in domestic violence and child protection proceedings and sometimes separated from their families or caring for children alone. I am too tired to write much more than to say that it is very hard work. It is founded on a health visiting relationship built because they have young children. They are harder to engage than their partners in the sister group (although it is slowly possible). Their habitual way of living in the moment means they intend turning up (I believe) but get side tracked on the day or can't be arsed. Patience and perserverence and not giving up on them without being a critical nag requires qualities that I think might be hard to sustain for very long. I am constantly phoning, writing, knocking on doors,

encouraging and responding in anyway that feels useful, often egged on by their partners who wish their blokes would show more committment to anything useful. We change direction, try new ideas, use theirs, cope with dissent. There are magic moments and my heart soars when we enjoy being together doing something, dispersed between the heart sink times when I am still surprised when they don't turn up and surprised again when they do, or they wander in to apologise or to ask a favour. I actually don't mind as much that they don't do art, come on a picnic at the beach or whatever as much as I care that they find it worth coming at all. I cannot see this ever becoming mainstream health visiting because it is so exhausting. I have learnt so much about men over the last year, particularly discouraged ones and it has been worth the effort. I can imagine questions such as why men, why not families?

What do we do? Who pays? Another day for writing all the details. Your link shows me there is not much going on for fathers such as these and the art projects around seem to be for mentally ill men, homeless or captive (imprisoned) or or because they have to attend under a compulsion order, which I found complicates the relationships and is different from those one tries to establish in health visiting. I believe we are onto something good but it is really hard to achieve. Robyn Bidmead <christinebidmead (DOT) f9.co.uk> wrote: Please see a web link below to access this report released by the Social Exclusion unit todayhttp://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/social_exclusion_task_force/families_at_risk/reaching_out_summary.aspBest wishes, Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

[Guest guest]

Robyn, thank you for sharing your practice, which is always inspiring to read about.  sarahOn 20 Jun 2007, at 08:05, Robyn Pound wrote:Lesley, Yes I had a male student nurse for three months (who now wants to be a health visitor!) who the men liked.  On the picnic to the beach with their families (for which the nurse took a day out from his current hospital placement to come) they discovered they were all Bristol Rovers fans and had all been to Wembley to watch the recent play off.  As an All Blacks fan I am really a polite joke!  They have had their own kick around place on meadows near here.  It lasted for months last year.  Enthusiam waned when two people broke legs when the grass got long. (it is now cut regularly by the council - organised by them). Fear of each other is a big factor that keeps them indoors looking out at those dodgy people over there.  'I don't want my missus mixing with those people' can affect the girls group too.  I usually have my scales in the car as a magnet.  Several men have said they don't want to make friends but are interested in the activities because they are bored.  The girls seem to get over their fear of each other quicker in their group and form friendships and see each other at other times. I could write more about the part fear plays in people's lives. A third independently funded family group that has a creche and has been running for six+ years now doesn't grow much.  I am sure it is because of this same wariness of who will be there. Unfortunately it is now on a day I cannot go. Flyers and sending people because its there is less effective.  Getting people in the other two groups works because I am there and they know me (or each other) and it is a stepping stone from home visiting. It is a fascinating process that is intense and in the scale of things only touches a small proportion (albeit some of the most needy) of the health visiting caseload.  My colleagues do most of the rest and I am grateful for that because postnatal depression and the rest gets a bit 'been there and done that' as the years go on. I have found it increasingly difficult to make a quick switch across the concerns of the classes and be as empathic for the worried well as is necessary (and I have done in spadeloads in the past) when I have just come back from the grinding anxt, fear and chaos of the other group - another interesting point about locaIity working if you are going to really get involved in what matters to people.   I had better quickly state my unconditional support of a universal service however.  I wouldn't be able to do this without cutting my teeth on the rest and it is keeping my head in all camps that gives me a constant over view of what society is like and what is 'normalish' and how things go wrong.  The priviledge of health visiting for keeping real is constantly obvious to me.  I find I need to keep an eye on what other agencies want to provide in the groups because agenda-led activities (for their own outcomes) could act like fly-spray on a group (strange metaphor!).Robyn lesley baillie <lesleya.bailliebtinternet> wrote:Dear RobynI do hope you're getting support from your colleagues and peers...you sound so deflated and isolated! Your work comes from the heart and that is sometimes all the harder to deal with when you don't see much outcome for a lot of effort.We have a specific Young Fathers Worker attached to our Surestart centre, who has similar probs to those you describe. However by visiting the venues he knows the young dads frequent (which means pubs, snooker halls etc) he has manged to "key in" with the dads and offer a service that they have chosen rather than one that was being based on our perception of their need.Hope this helpsLesleyRobyn Pound <robyn_pound > wrote:Thanks for this link. A year on I am still beavering away with the Fathers Art Project in Bath, trying to attract fathers who are at home in the day to come and be creative in a variety of ways on their estate.  These are the most vulnerable men I come across in that they are discouraged men (disabled by their circumstances), failed by the education system, not working much, often involved in drugs, ex-offenders or tagged, may be involved in domestic violence and child protection proceedings and sometimes separated from their families or caring for children alone.  I am too tired to write much more than to say that it is very hard work. It is founded on a health visiting relationship built because they have young children.  They are harder to engage than their partners in the sister group (although it is slowly possible). Their habitual way of living in the moment means they intend turning up (I believe) but get side tracked on the day or can't be arsed.  Patience and perserverence and not giving up on them without being a critical nag requires qualities that I think might be hard to sustain for very long.  I am constantly phoning, writing, knocking on doors, encouraging and responding in anyway that feels useful, often egged on by their partners who wish their blokes would show more committment to anything useful.  We change direction, try new ideas, use theirs, cope with dissent. There are magic moments and my heart soars when we enjoy being together doing something, dispersed between the heart sink times when I am still surprised when they don't turn up and surprised again when they do, or they wander in to apologise or to ask a favour. I actually don't mind as much that they don't do art, come on a picnic at the beach or whatever as much as I care that they find it worth coming at all.  I cannot see this ever becoming mainstream health visiting because it is so exhausting.  I have learnt so much about men over the last year, particularly discouraged ones and it has been worth the effort.  I can imagine questions such as why men, why not families? What do we do? Who pays? Another day for writing all the details.  Your link shows me there is not much going on for fathers such as these and the art projects around seem to be for mentally ill men, homeless or captive (imprisoned) or or because they have to attend under a compulsion order, which I found complicates the relationships and is different from those one tries to establish in health visiting.  I believe we are onto something good but it is really hard to achieve.  Robyn Bidmead <christinebidmead (DOT) f9.co.uk> wrote:Please see a web link below to access this report released by the Social Exclusion unit todayhttp://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/social_exclusion_task_force/families_at_risk/reaching_out_summary.aspBest wishes, Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

[Guest guest]

Robyn, thank you for sharing your practice, which is always inspiring to read about.  sarahOn 20 Jun 2007, at 08:05, Robyn Pound wrote:Lesley, Yes I had a male student nurse for three months (who now wants to be a health visitor!) who the men liked.  On the picnic to the beach with their families (for which the nurse took a day out from his current hospital placement to come) they discovered they were all Bristol Rovers fans and had all been to Wembley to watch the recent play off.  As an All Blacks fan I am really a polite joke!  They have had their own kick around place on meadows near here.  It lasted for months last year.  Enthusiam waned when two people broke legs when the grass got long. (it is now cut regularly by the council - organised by them). Fear of each other is a big factor that keeps them indoors looking out at those dodgy people over there.  'I don't want my missus mixing with those people' can affect the girls group too.  I usually have my scales in the car as a magnet.  Several men have said they don't want to make friends but are interested in the activities because they are bored.  The girls seem to get over their fear of each other quicker in their group and form friendships and see each other at other times. I could write more about the part fear plays in people's lives. A third independently funded family group that has a creche and has been running for six+ years now doesn't grow much.  I am sure it is because of this same wariness of who will be there. Unfortunately it is now on a day I cannot go. Flyers and sending people because its there is less effective.  Getting people in the other two groups works because I am there and they know me (or each other) and it is a stepping stone from home visiting. It is a fascinating process that is intense and in the scale of things only touches a small proportion (albeit some of the most needy) of the health visiting caseload.  My colleagues do most of the rest and I am grateful for that because postnatal depression and the rest gets a bit 'been there and done that' as the years go on. I have found it increasingly difficult to make a quick switch across the concerns of the classes and be as empathic for the worried well as is necessary (and I have done in spadeloads in the past) when I have just come back from the grinding anxt, fear and chaos of the other group - another interesting point about locaIity working if you are going to really get involved in what matters to people.   I had better quickly state my unconditional support of a universal service however.  I wouldn't be able to do this without cutting my teeth on the rest and it is keeping my head in all camps that gives me a constant over view of what society is like and what is 'normalish' and how things go wrong.  The priviledge of health visiting for keeping real is constantly obvious to me.  I find I need to keep an eye on what other agencies want to provide in the groups because agenda-led activities (for their own outcomes) could act like fly-spray on a group (strange metaphor!).Robyn lesley baillie <lesleya.bailliebtinternet> wrote:Dear RobynI do hope you're getting support from your colleagues and peers...you sound so deflated and isolated! Your work comes from the heart and that is sometimes all the harder to deal with when you don't see much outcome for a lot of effort.We have a specific Young Fathers Worker attached to our Surestart centre, who has similar probs to those you describe. However by visiting the venues he knows the young dads frequent (which means pubs, snooker halls etc) he has manged to "key in" with the dads and offer a service that they have chosen rather than one that was being based on our perception of their need.Hope this helpsLesleyRobyn Pound <robyn_pound > wrote:Thanks for this link. A year on I am still beavering away with the Fathers Art Project in Bath, trying to attract fathers who are at home in the day to come and be creative in a variety of ways on their estate.  These are the most vulnerable men I come across in that they are discouraged men (disabled by their circumstances), failed by the education system, not working much, often involved in drugs, ex-offenders or tagged, may be involved in domestic violence and child protection proceedings and sometimes separated from their families or caring for children alone.  I am too tired to write much more than to say that it is very hard work. It is founded on a health visiting relationship built because they have young children.  They are harder to engage than their partners in the sister group (although it is slowly possible). Their habitual way of living in the moment means they intend turning up (I believe) but get side tracked on the day or can't be arsed.  Patience and perserverence and not giving up on them without being a critical nag requires qualities that I think might be hard to sustain for very long.  I am constantly phoning, writing, knocking on doors, encouraging and responding in anyway that feels useful, often egged on by their partners who wish their blokes would show more committment to anything useful.  We change direction, try new ideas, use theirs, cope with dissent. There are magic moments and my heart soars when we enjoy being together doing something, dispersed between the heart sink times when I am still surprised when they don't turn up and surprised again when they do, or they wander in to apologise or to ask a favour. I actually don't mind as much that they don't do art, come on a picnic at the beach or whatever as much as I care that they find it worth coming at all.  I cannot see this ever becoming mainstream health visiting because it is so exhausting.  I have learnt so much about men over the last year, particularly discouraged ones and it has been worth the effort.  I can imagine questions such as why men, why not families? What do we do? Who pays? Another day for writing all the details.  Your link shows me there is not much going on for fathers such as these and the art projects around seem to be for mentally ill men, homeless or captive (imprisoned) or or because they have to attend under a compulsion order, which I found complicates the relationships and is different from those one tries to establish in health visiting.  I believe we are onto something good but it is really hard to achieve.  Robyn Bidmead <christinebidmead (DOT) f9.co.uk> wrote:Please see a web link below to access this report released by the Social Exclusion unit todayhttp://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/social_exclusion_task_force/families_at_risk/reaching_out_summary.aspBest wishes, Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

[Guest guest]

That is helpful . It is obvious, although I hadn't thought of it, that change towards including and valuing fathers through groups such as ours is a stepping stone towards a cultural change in the same way that the children's rights movement was ten years ago and the women's movement in the decades before that. Thanks, that helps. I expect I'll soldier on because there are outcomes in terms of these men seeking and accepting help. Robyn Coles <colesew@...> wrote: Dear Robyntake heart! I recently set out to interview fathers from backgrounds where there were more likely to be risks for child abuse. It took about 1 year to find 3 groups for men, and then the story was of groups just closed or just struggling to get going. You are at the forefront of father work which takes enourmous dedication to persevere with and the development of a whole new range of skills. After this work my hv colleague gets approached in clinic by fathers and asked if she is the hv for Dads? I think the normalising of communicating with fathers as people in their own right, not problems, will help bring them into more mainstream focus but it also will need champions to change the emphasis in care from what is essentially a mother dominated -in the sense of who is addressed in the literture handed out and who is the focus of appointments- to make such changes. It will take commitment, specific funding and recognition of outcomes to be measured

in terms of achievement.Dr Coles PhD BA RHV RGNHonorary Senior Research FellowDepartment of Child HealthCardiff School of MedicineCardiff UniversityHeath ParkCardiff CF14 4XNTelephone: Department Secretary 02920 743374/5>>> Robyn Pound <robyn_pound > 19/06/07 5:46 PM >>>Thanks for this link. A year on I am still beavering away with the Fathers Art Project in Bath, trying to attract fathers who are at home in the day to come and be creative in a variety of ways on their estate. These are the most vulnerable men I come across in that they are discouraged men (disabled by their circumstances), failed by the education system, not working much, often involved in drugs, ex-offenders or tagged, may be involved in domestic violence and child protection proceedings and sometimes separated from their families or caring for

children alone. I am too tired to write much more than to say that it is very hard work. It is founded on a health visiting relationship built because they have young children. They are harder to engage than their partners in the sister group (although it is slowly possible). Their habitual way of living in the moment means they intend turning up (I believe) but get side tracked on the day or can't be arsed. Patience and perserverence and not giving up on them without being a critical nag requires qualities that I think might be hard to sustain for very long. I am constantly phoning, writing, knocking on doors, encouraging and responding in anyway that feels useful, often egged on by their partners who wish their blokes would show more committment to anything useful. We change direction, try new ideas, use theirs, cope with dissent. There are magic moments and my heart soars when we enjoy being together doing something, dispersed between the heart sink

times when I am still surprised when they don't turn up and surprised again when they do, or they wander in to apologise or to ask a favour. I actually don't mind as much that they don't do art, come on a picnic at the beach or whatever as much as I care that they find it worth coming at all. I cannot see this ever becoming mainstream health visiting because it is so exhausting. I have learnt so much about men over the last year, particularly discouraged ones and it has been worth the effort. I can imagine questions such as why men, why not families? What do we do? Who pays? Another day for writing all the details. Your link shows me there is not much going on for fathers such as these and the art projects around seem to be for mentally ill men, homeless or captive (imprisoned) or or because they have to attend under a compulsion order, which I found complicates the relationships and is different from those one tries to establish in health visiting. I

believe we are onto something good but it is really hard to achieve. Robyn Bidmead <christinebidmead (DOT) f9.co.uk> wrote:Please see a web link below to access this report released by the Social Exclusion unit todayhttp://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/social_exclusion_task_force/families_at_risk/reaching_out_summary.aspBest wishes, ---------------------------------Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

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That is helpful . It is obvious, although I hadn't thought of it, that change towards including and valuing fathers through groups such as ours is a stepping stone towards a cultural change in the same way that the children's rights movement was ten years ago and the women's movement in the decades before that. Thanks, that helps. I expect I'll soldier on because there are outcomes in terms of these men seeking and accepting help. Robyn Coles <colesew@...> wrote: Dear Robyntake heart! I recently set out to interview fathers from backgrounds where there were more likely to be risks for child abuse. It took about 1 year to find 3 groups for men, and then the story was of groups just closed or just struggling to get going. You are at the forefront of father work which takes enourmous dedication to persevere with and the development of a whole new range of skills. After this work my hv colleague gets approached in clinic by fathers and asked if she is the hv for Dads? I think the normalising of communicating with fathers as people in their own right, not problems, will help bring them into more mainstream focus but it also will need champions to change the emphasis in care from what is essentially a mother dominated -in the sense of who is addressed in the literture handed out and who is the focus of appointments- to make such changes. It will take commitment, specific funding and recognition of outcomes to be measured

in terms of achievement.Dr Coles PhD BA RHV RGNHonorary Senior Research FellowDepartment of Child HealthCardiff School of MedicineCardiff UniversityHeath ParkCardiff CF14 4XNTelephone: Department Secretary 02920 743374/5>>> Robyn Pound <robyn_pound > 19/06/07 5:46 PM >>>Thanks for this link. A year on I am still beavering away with the Fathers Art Project in Bath, trying to attract fathers who are at home in the day to come and be creative in a variety of ways on their estate. These are the most vulnerable men I come across in that they are discouraged men (disabled by their circumstances), failed by the education system, not working much, often involved in drugs, ex-offenders or tagged, may be involved in domestic violence and child protection proceedings and sometimes separated from their families or caring for

children alone. I am too tired to write much more than to say that it is very hard work. It is founded on a health visiting relationship built because they have young children. They are harder to engage than their partners in the sister group (although it is slowly possible). Their habitual way of living in the moment means they intend turning up (I believe) but get side tracked on the day or can't be arsed. Patience and perserverence and not giving up on them without being a critical nag requires qualities that I think might be hard to sustain for very long. I am constantly phoning, writing, knocking on doors, encouraging and responding in anyway that feels useful, often egged on by their partners who wish their blokes would show more committment to anything useful. We change direction, try new ideas, use theirs, cope with dissent. There are magic moments and my heart soars when we enjoy being together doing something, dispersed between the heart sink

times when I am still surprised when they don't turn up and surprised again when they do, or they wander in to apologise or to ask a favour. I actually don't mind as much that they don't do art, come on a picnic at the beach or whatever as much as I care that they find it worth coming at all. I cannot see this ever becoming mainstream health visiting because it is so exhausting. I have learnt so much about men over the last year, particularly discouraged ones and it has been worth the effort. I can imagine questions such as why men, why not families? What do we do? Who pays? Another day for writing all the details. Your link shows me there is not much going on for fathers such as these and the art projects around seem to be for mentally ill men, homeless or captive (imprisoned) or or because they have to attend under a compulsion order, which I found complicates the relationships and is different from those one tries to establish in health visiting. I

believe we are onto something good but it is really hard to achieve. Robyn Bidmead <christinebidmead (DOT) f9.co.uk> wrote:Please see a web link below to access this report released by the Social Exclusion unit todayhttp://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/social_exclusion_task_force/families_at_risk/reaching_out_summary.aspBest wishes, ---------------------------------Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

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