Re: denature

April 20, 2006

,

I am new to this site. Could you please explain what you mean by " having

possessions denature " after 5 years of storage. I am also seeking any

information on using UV germicidal light on books that were in a building with

elevated

levels of toxic mold in the air and now in storage. These are books that each

are worth an average of $150-$250 a piece. (the books were not in an area of

the source of the mold, though my understanding is this makes no difference as

the books should be disposed of as well) The entire collection running around

$10,000. My understanding is that paper work must be disposed of. Any

references to any info offered up on this would be helpful.

I have never heard of mold penetrating hard smooth surface that you speak

of, such as non pourous items. Any more info you can offer up on any of this

would be greatly appreciated.

In a message dated 4/20/06 5:48:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

erikmoldwarrior@... writes:

> " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

> None of these are " enough " because killing mold is not " enough. " I

> surveyed this group and other about a year ago, asking if they

> could tell the difference between live mold and dead mold. Not one

> said they could.

> Killing will keep mold from spreading, but so will drying the area.

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> Yessir, and since low molecular weight T2 toxins from decomposing

> spores can adsorb via intermolecular dipole attraction onto smooth

> materials, the concept that spores can be washed away from hard

> suface materials is very misleading when the toxins can still remain.

> Just because it's glass, plastic, or a hard surface is no guarantee

> it's toxin-free after remediation of fungal conidial detritus.

> -

> (I'm STILL not in favor of " tossing everything " since I've seen

> similiar experiences to my own of having possessions denature after

> five years or more in storage)

> ((And I had the same experience in FLA as I did in deserty Las Vegas.

> Wonderful place - loved it, no particular problems - as long as I

> stay away from particular mold plumes. Can't wait to go back and do

> more kayaking amongst the birdz and crox. in the Everglades ))

>

April 21, 2006

bobbinsbiomed@... wrote:

> , I am new to this site. Could you please explain what you

mean by " having possessions denature " after 5 years of storage. I

am also seeking any information on using UV germicidal light on

books that were in a building with elevated levels of toxic mold in

the air and now in storage. These are books that each are worth an

average of $150-$250 a piece. (the books were not in an area of

the source of the mold, though my understanding is this makes no

difference as the books should be disposed of as well) The entire

collection running around $10,000. My understanding is that paper

work must be disposed of. Any references to any info offered up on

this would be helpful.

> I have never heard of mold penetrating hard smooth surface that

you speak of, such as non pourous items. Any more info you can

offer up on any of this would be greatly appreciated.

>

, if you saw Ki_Clayton's post about the mug, you get a good

example of a object that has picked up a toxin load that vigorous

cleaning does little to resolve.

One can't " kill " a toxin, and if spores have been cleaned off,

toxins are all that is still left. If an object is stored in a very

dry location with good air circulation, there is a good possibility

that the toxins will lose their punch over time.

I packed my books very loosely so the air could flow around them

and put them in a desert storage facility - and after five years,

they didn't bother me at all. Naturally, the variables of toxicity

means that no two situations, or even two books are going to be

identical, but a doctor that I evacuated from a moldy place in 2000

reported to me that after five years, the only things that still

bother her are the ones she had wrapped tightly in plastic before I

saw her doing this and told her this was a bad thing to do.

I have every confidence that in the future, strategies for

denaturing toxins will be developed. Some promising experiments

have already taken place. I wouldn't toss anything precious.

There's a very real possibility that it might not be necessary.

One has to balance the cost of storage against the value of the

possessions.

-

April 21, 2006

,

Is there any research showing that neurotoxins from spores loose their

toxicity over time (denature) or is this something you personally have

experienced? Also are you able to rule in or out of you being less sensitive

to the

mold? Do you have any information on individuals sensitivity decreasing over

time?

In a message dated 4/21/06 5:01:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

erikmoldwarrior@... writes:

> bobbinsbiomed@... wrote:

> >, I am new to this site. Could you please explain what you

> mean by " having possessions denature " after 5 years of storage. I

> am also seeking any information on using UV germicidal light on

> books that were in a building with elevated levels of toxic mold in

> the air and now in storage. These are books that each are worth an

> average of $150-$250 a piece. (the books were not in an area of

> the source of the mold, though my understanding is this makes no

> difference as the books should be disposed of as well) The entire

> collection running around $10,000. My understanding is that paper

> work must be disposed of. Any references to any info offered up on

> this would be helpful.

> > I have never heard of mold penetrating hard smooth surface that

> you speak of, such as non pourous items. Any more info you can

> offer up on any of this would be greatly appreciated.

> >

>

> , if you saw Ki_Clayton's post about the mug, you get a good

> example of a object that has picked up a toxin load that vigorous

> cleaning does little to resolve.

> One can't " kill " a toxin, and if spores have been cleaned off,

> toxins are all that is still left. If an object is stored in a very

> dry location with good air circulation, there is a good possibility

> that the toxins will lose their punch over time.

> I packed my books very loosely so the air could flow around them

> and put them in a desert storage facility - and after five years,

> they didn't bother me at all. Naturally, the variables of toxicity

> means that no two situations, or even two books are going to be

> identical, but a doctor that I evacuated from a moldy place in 2000

> reported to me that after five years, the only things that still

> bother her are the ones she had wrapped tightly in plastic before I

> saw her doing this and told her this was a bad thing to do.

> I have every confidence that in the future, strategies for

> denaturing toxins will be developed. Some promising experiments

> have already taken place. I wouldn't toss anything precious.

> There's a very real possibility that it might not be necessary.

> One has to balance the cost of storage against the value of the

> possessions.

> -

>

April 22, 2006

bobbinsbiomed@... wrote:

> ,

Is there any research showing that neurotoxins from spores loose

their toxicity over time (denature) or is this something you

personally have experienced? Also are you able to rule in or out

of you being less sensitive to the mold? Do you have any

information on individuals sensitivity decreasing over time?

>

Well. After twenty years of being told that science and research

has proven that CFS does not exist, and that mold is harmless, I'm

not so sure that these words, " science and research " means what

doctors think they mean.

Since I started with all doctors saying that mold illness is

impossible, I tested every concept myself, and trusted my

perceptions rather than trying to act like everything that was

happening was " impossible " .

Seeing denaturing is purely from personal experience.

Since the source of the original exposure still kicks my butt, I

know that my reactivity isn't gone. If the possessions don't bother

me anymore when I know darn well they used to when I visited them in

storage - the only explanation I have is that I am still reactive

but the toxins on these possessions died down over time.

My reactivity has decreased considerably, but I still cannot stand

much exposure. No return to a normal life. I can only go into bad

places and pretend to be normal for a short time, but that's quite

an improvement over being laid out for days and never being able to

predict when I could stand up.

-

April 22, 2006

Nonporous posessions can be decontaminated by cleaning them with

ammonia or any one of several other cleaning agents. As far as books

go, the age of the books probably makes a big difference. Newer,

glossier books are denser, less porous and easier to clean.

Older books are very difficult, I'd imagine.

I have yet to be able to gauge the success of my own stab at this, but

it can't hurt to HEPA vacumn them, wipe their covers with an ammonia

solution-dampened cloth, and then dry and store them in a dry place

with UV light on them (even sunlight might work)

Do this in a place with HEPA-filtered air. When you take the books out

of storage, do it outdoors in the sun, open each one and 'use' it a

bit in the dry sunny air. Leave it in the sun.

(if you are a scientist, think oxidation environment)

Then, after a few hours, bring it inside and see if it still makes you ill.

April 22, 2006

Regarding the cleaning of the books, since the paper is porous would a UV

light work in helping to decontaminate the mold????. This is where I am getting

confused here. This would be new information for me if this was possible?

HEPA Vacuum is not sufficient. Again, I am talking about books without actual

mold growth which seems to me make the possibility of saving books slightly

more viable. No play on words here....

Does anyone really know the answer to this or are we all just guessing? For

instance research has shown that clothes dry-cleaned 5 times still show mold

spores present. Most Certified Industrial Hygienists tell you it is fine to

dry clean clothes and HEPA vacumn belongings that have been in an area with

elevated spore counts. I agree this will reduce the number of spores. However,

for those that are highly sensitized, this is not something that should be

done. Often most will not know how sensitized they will end up until a while

after they have removed themselves from the mold infested environment. If they

bring belongings with them, they may never know what is up or down. Or who

knows, it all may come down to trial and error. I just do not want to error on

the side of reintroducing Stachybotris into an environment where there is none.

Which is why I am of the school that recommends disposal of items or storage,

until someone comes up with something better which I am looking for.

So much of the information we have is often based on plaintiff vs defense

work. Other info is not backed up with any evidence at all. This makes

legitimate information very difficult to access. However, specializing in

alternative modalities has made me open to experience. A lot can come out of

this, one

just has to be careful. I am open but cautious.

In a message dated 4/21/06 6:58:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

quackadillian@... writes:

> Nonporous posessions can be decontaminated by cleaning them with

> ammonia or any one of several other cleaning agents. As far as books

> go, the age of the books probably makes a big difference. Newer,

> glossier books are denser, less porous and easier to clean.

>

> Older books are very difficult, I'd imagine.

>

> I have yet to be able to gauge the success of my own stab at this, but

> it can't hurt to HEPA vacumn them, wipe their covers with an ammonia

> solution-dampened cloth, and then dry and store them in a dry place

> with UV light on them (even sunlight might work)

>

> Do this in a place with HEPA-filtered air. When you take the books out

> of storage, do it outdoors in the sun, open each one and 'use' it a

> bit in the dry sunny air. Leave it in the sun.

>

> (if you are a scientist, think oxidation environment)

>

> Then, after a few hours, bring it inside and see if it still makes you ill.

>

April 22, 2006

,

Thank you for clarifying this for me. I hear what you are saying about CFS

(and MCSD.) As a practitioner I have strong opinions on this myself.

However, we are in dire need of " science and research " Please do not knock

this, for this is how we in medicine will ever be able to make mold syndrome a

legitimate syndrome and then find treatment. You as well as anyone know this

is a political fight. Politics needs statistics. Medicine needs statistics

and research. And yes, medicine is political. I am an acupuncturist and

herbologist and though acupuncture and herbology has been around for thousands

years

without research ( " evidence based medicine " ) and the Chinese do not question

this, even they have stepped up in the area of research and jumped on the

evidence based medicine bandwagon.

I am not knocking what is experiential. Most of what I have learned about

mold has been unfortunately experiential. To then find the evidence that backs

up what I have been experiencing is a blessing. Thank god for the few

physicians who are so dedicated to this. I only wish there were some of these

good

physicians here in Los Angeles where I am. The only specialists I know are in

it

charging a small fortune for a visit, with nothing to offer other than expert

witness work or so called treatments by them that cost another fortune. The

only board certified toxicologist here in LA specializing in mold exposure,

last I heard a few years back was charging and getting $8,000 for a

consultation. This is insane. This whole field has become about defense vs

plaintiff.

Because, bottom line is, this is where the money is at. Phew, I know you know

all this, I just had vent. Individuals sick from toxic mold exposure have

fallen victim to all that is involved with the politics of toxic mold infested

homes/ buildings then fall victim again in the seeking of medical treatment. I

know this is nothing new to anyone involved in this site. To jump off of my

soapbox:

What I can say is that without what is experiential we would not have

Chinese Medicine. Given this, it is important to define what is of our own

experience versus what is evidenced based. As I said, I am new to this site. I

am

hoping to access peoples own individual experience as well as the latest on any

research and findings. I will be in touch, I just wanted to respond to this.

In a message dated 4/21/06 6:12:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

erikmoldwarrior@... writes:

> bobbinsbiomed@... wrote:

> >,

> Is there any research showing that neurotoxins from spores loose

> their toxicity over time (denature) or is this something you

> personally have experienced? Also are you able to rule in or out

> of you being less sensitive to the mold? Do you have any

> information on individuals sensitivity decreasing over time?

> >

>

> Well. After twenty years of being told that science and research

> has proven that CFS does not exist, and that mold is harmless, I'm

> not so sure that these words, " science and research " means what

> doctors think they mean.

>

> Since I started with all doctors saying that mold illness is

> impossible, I tested every concept myself, and trusted my

> perceptions rather than trying to act like everything that was

> happening was " impossible " .

> Seeing denaturing is purely from personal experience.

> Since the source of the original exposure still kicks my butt, I

> know that my reactivity isn't gone. If the possessions don't bother

> me anymore when I know darn well they used to when I visited them in

> storage - the only explanation I have is that I am still reactive

> but the toxins on these possessions died down over time.

> My reactivity has decreased considerably, but I still cannot stand

> much exposure. No return to a normal life. I can only go into bad

> places and pretend to be normal for a short time, but that's quite

> an improvement over being laid out for days and never being able to

> predict when I could stand up.

> -

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

April 22, 2006

There is no way someone highly sensitized to mold would safely be able to

look through contaminated paper left in storage or otherwise, without

recontamination of themselves, even if outside. So, looking through it first is

not a

good idea. I know some who had a copy service pick up their paper work. This

is fine if you do not care about others. Of course taking the contaminated

paper work yourself to be copied in full suit and mask might bring some unwanted

attention..... And this of course does not solve the contamination of someone

else's environment problem, that is if you care enough to care about this.

In a message dated 4/22/06 4:48:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

barb1283@... writes:

> I say hypothesize your house burned down to the ground and ask

> yourself what papers, if any, would you cry about not having? Take

> those and make or get new copies of them, and throw everything else

> away. (...but look through it first! - outside)

>

April 23, 2006

Books have me stumped. I have some very very old antique books that

I must get appraised. I would imagine Library of Congress means of

preservation would aim to stop deterioration of paper, which I would

assume to be stop deterioration from mold, so with that in mind, I

found this: Basically saying storage in cool, dry place, in box.

It says UV would discolor leather covers, so if you don't care about

cover, I guess that would be okay. I guess try any technique you

experiment with on a book you don't mind losing. As for toxins,

they would have to be able to air out I would imagine. Other papers

I would just copy and throw originals away, unless having original

is important for legal purposes, then you might see if you can get

an 'official copy', i.e. have insurance company or whoever it is

from to issue another one to replace it.

http://www.loc.gov/preserv/care/books.html

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Nonporous posessions can be decontaminated by cleaning them with

> ammonia or any one of several other cleaning agents. As far as

books

>

April 23, 2006

I say hypothesize your house burned down to the ground and ask

yourself what papers, if any, would you cry about not having? Take

those and make or get new copies of them, and throw everything else

away. (...but look through it first! - outside)

>

> Regarding the cleaning of the books, since the paper is porous would

a UV

> light work in helping to decontaminate the mold????. This is where

I am getting

April 23, 2006

Barb,

Keep in mind that most of the growth and contamination on books is usually

on the outside, particularly if the book is tightly closed on a shelf. If

you are dealing with such a book for the first time, take care not to allow

dust from the top of the book to fall between the pages. (This can make a

big difference.) When the book is first moved, it should be kept tightly

closed and the outside HEPA vacuumed.

C. May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

1522 Cambridge Street

Cambridge, MA 02139

617-354-1055

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

>From: " barb1283 " barb1283@...

>Date: Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:34pm(PDT)

>Subject: Re: denature