Re: CPT Grades

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your informative reply. You must have sussed the reason for my enquiry. So now to battle to get the recognition we deserve. Tell me though, does the PGCE have a specific course for nurses/HVs or is it general?

[Guest guest]

Thank you Kathy for raising this, and well done , for fighting for

and getting recognition, and for this excellent 'case for. . . .' the

proper recognition of professional education and leadership, which is really

what this is about. Do you, or any of the other CPTs have a view about

the NMCs new, proposed 'Standard to Support Learning and Assessment in Practice?'

Responses requested by 8th October. It is quite huffy, but does seem to

have got the message that education in practice in the community is not like

in hospitals. It is probably worth responding, because the new teaching

standards will automatically be covered within the new NMC3 standards, which

will govern HV training (or its replacement) in future. They state (p.17)

that

"The NMC requires educators to be prepared to meet the outcomes defined in

its standards for

the preparation of teachers of nursing and midwifery. Students should be

supported in both academic and practice learning environments by appropriately

qualified teachers."

It then goes to explain something quite vague about the teachers' qualifications,

because this register is for various groups other than HVs who do not have

CPTs or any other qualification, and Hvs are included in this. However, in

the rationale, it is stronger, stating:

"This guidance is intended to provide programme planners and those approving

programmes on behalf of the NMC, with a strong steer about the expectations

held by the NMC about the nature of student support to be considered ‘appropriate’;

that is, for example, someone with the same practice qualification and who

meets the recognised NMC standards for teachers when setting up and running

programmes. Given the shortage of qualified teachers who are also school

nurses, occupational health nurses, and public health nurses, precise ratios

cannot be given for those areas of practice. However, the NMC will expect

that each student will have unlimited access to a practitioner with an appropriate

qualification and experience in their chosen area of practice.

"The level of qualification held by teachers in the practice setting needs

to take into account

that the practice teacher must co-ordinate a sophisticated programme of student

experience in

the practice field through the entirety of the programme, a function carried

out by university

lecturers in pre-registration nursing and midwifery programmes, and contribute

in large

measure to summative assessment and the decision of whether or not to register

the student."

The document overall has lots of ambiguities and omissions, because so much

that helped it to make sense was removed in the process between preparation

and delivery. However, that last paragraph is worth bearing in mind for

anyone faced with demands that 'mentors' are all that students need.

best wishes

Tom Lund-Lack wrote:

Dear Kathy

Here in Ipswich we get paid an H. Originally we were paid an allowance

of approx. £800 a year once qualified as a CPT but that was silly because

it didn't take into account the possibility of a student leaving and what

would happen if the student had to be taken on by someone else. Was the

allowance withdrawn or given to someone else. Then of course there was the

pensionable aspect plus the inequity of newly qualified CPTs having no parity

with existing CPTs who were on H grades historically. There was such little

understanding by our managers about the true scope of our role and the level

of teaching and assessing that was required once the award rose to BSc level. I

bartered long and vociferously to get equity with the aid of an RCN rep

and finally it was agreed that we would get paid the equivalent of the H

grade with increments but only when we had students. We were allowed one

paid 'rest' year during which time we were expected to help with recruitment

for the next round of students and be a spare CPT should one be needed.

This meant that at the start of the academic year I would going to my manager

to ask for the payment to be continued and all the forms had to be filled

out again. It was rather humiliating. Then the extended role of the CPT

became more recognised as their skills were used for a wide range of clinical

governance issues. Eventually, a sympathetic new manager saw that the situation

was rather ridiculous and another regrading attempt was successful. We now

have a different job description that brings out the extended role:

training and education adviser

assisting manager with G grade interviews

deputising for manager in her absence or representing her

picking up issues around poor practice of qualified staff

leading practice development strategies

providing clinical practice leadership

and so on .........

Locally, we feel so strongly about the devaluation by default that

has happened to the CPT role, no thanks to the NMC and it's hospital model

of Practice Education, that we have taken the bull by the horns and stated

as a group of CPTs that proper preparation must be undertaken for the role.

As there is now no such thing as a CPT course we have recruited new CPTs

on the basis that they undertake the PGCE. We have also changed our title

to Specialist Practice Teachers. Specialist Practice Mentor does not do

the role justice but neither are the vast majority of us able to call ourselves

Practice Educators as we do not have a masters qualification. I recently

heard some HVs in Hertfordshire call themselves Practice Assessors and I

wondered who did the teaching bit.

I would be very interested to hear what CPT or other courses are running

elsewhere. The Community Practitioner journal recently had an article about

a joint Social Work Field Work Teacher and CPT course but it did not state

what the award was.

Long winded I know but a very important and often overlooked area

of practice.

Lund-Lack

From: kms160360@...

To:

Sent:

Wednesday, August 25, 2004 8:04 AM

Subject:

CPT Grades

Dear All, I am investigating what pay scale CPT's are currently

on around the country. In Enfield we are paid an H only for the time we

have a student, (not during the summer recess, unless you have a part-time

student, when you only get half an H grade). The Cpt does not rise up

the H grade scale, therefore no real incentive to continue and become

more experienced. Does any Trust have a more progressive way of rewarding

their CPT's.??? Many thanks in anticipation of any replies. Kathy Soderquist

[Guest guest]

Re: CPT Grades

Thanks for your informative reply. You must have sussed the reason for my enquiry. So now to battle to get the recognition we deserve. Tell me though, does the PGCE have a specific course for nurses/HVs or is it general?

[Guest guest]

Kathy, to be recognised, PGCE (or more often these days, post graduate

diplomas, rather than certificates) courses must be validated with NMC as

well as being an academic award in educational studies. This generally means

including assessment of practice (i.e., teaching practice in your particular

professional field) as well as the theoretical bit; like all professional

programmes the balance has to be 50-50. Most places, like us at King's, will

have a dual route, whereby people who want to be recognised as teachers by

NMC can ensure they take courses/modules through which they can achieve this,

although individual modules can be taken by anyone interested in learning

about e.g. facilating learning as part of another Masters programme. We

developed our programme specifically for practice teachers at the request

of our local Trusts. I expect your Trust will have a contract with your

local university, but in case you or anyone else is interested, our post-graduate

prospectus, which gives all this information, can be downloaded from http://www.kcl.ac.uk/nursing/postgrad/index.html

best wishes

Thanks for your informative reply. You must have sussed the reason

for my enquiry. So now to battle to get the recognition we deserve. Tell

me though, does the PGCE have a specific course for nurses/HVs or is it

general?

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much

[Guest guest]

Sorry to be late in replying to this. The PGCE is interprofessional locally. The course leader is a radiographer by background and that has caused a bit of an issue. The problem arose when assignments needed to be written in relation to clinical supervision. The HV CPT students found it very difficult to get across that clinical supervision for HVs could not follow a medical or therapeutic model. The course leader had very clear ideas about what the assignment should include and struggled to understand that HVs have a very different need within Clin. Sup. and that there is not much literature available to comment on. Here I call on Neil Brocklehurst to comment on what I'm saying. The other thing was the amount of teaching hours needed to complete the course and the problems of taking that out of a classroom setting. The theory content also was very institution/classroom biased.

Lund-Lack

Re: CPT Grades

Thanks for your informative reply. You must have sussed the reason for my enquiry. So now to battle to get the recognition we deserve. Tell me though, does the PGCE have a specific course for nurses/HVs or is it general?

[Guest guest]

I have now responded to the consultation document. All I can say is thank god we decided in Suffolk to hold fast to the need for properly prepared CPTs. Other Community Specialist Practice Nursing disciplines who historically have not had CPTs have had to try and address the lack of CPTs in these disciplines. This has not been easy and not always well understood or received. However, where a lack existed and someone had to be found to 'mentor' a specialist practice student it was often not at all successful and very stressful for students and mentors alike. The college lecturers have had real problems at times. I note that in the consultation document in section on 'Employer and Education use of Teaching roles it states 'In Midwifery a different picture emerges as these practitioners have greater autonomy for practice from the point of registration'. Why doesn't it recognise that it is also the case for health visitors? I have spent the whole of last week at work advocating for very vulnerable clients and putting my neck on the line for them. I have represented issues at the highest levels in the community, acute and local partnership services. It takes some formidable skills to do this as well as guts and confidence! The role of nurse practitioners is now being spoken of in sometimes somewhat hallowed terms yet all they have learnt to do is take their practice further in that they are able to make referrals. It is so under-recognised that they are only playing catch-up with us. Their reward is they get H grades.

Lund-Lack

CPT Grades

Dear All, I am investigating what pay scale CPT's are currently on around the country. In Enfield we are paid an H only for the time we have a student, (not during the summer recess, unless you have a part-time student, when you only get half an H grade). The Cpt does not rise up the H grade scale, therefore no real incentive to continue and become more experienced. Does any Trust have a more progressive way of rewarding their CPT's.??? Many thanks in anticipation of any replies. Kathy Soderquist

[Guest guest]

, one of the things that did get through in the NMC3 standards document was a description of the 'Management of community public health practice,' which does go some to recognising this high level of expertise and autonomy:

not that it mentions health visiting, of course! It says:

"The specialist community public health function involves a capacity not only to participate actively in public health provision but also to accept responsibility for the effective and efficient management of that provision, practised within a safe environment. Specialist community public health nurses are responsible for organising practice for a defined population that may be neither differentiated by diagnosis nor actively receiving medical care, yet which may involve very vulnerable individuals. As well as the ability to make fine judgements based on risk assessments and to deal with contradictions in practice, specialist community public health nursing accepts accountability and takes responsibility for the delegation of aspects of practice to others, and effectively supervises and facilitates the work of team members. It also involves the capacity to work effectively within wider multi-disciplinary and multi-agency teams, to accept leadership roles within

such teams, and to demonstrate overall competence in community public health

practice."

I think, if we could substitute 'health visiting' for the long nursing phrase that no-one can ever remember, it would reasonably describe the senior level needed on qualifying. best wishes

Tom Lund-Lack wrote:

I have now responded to the consultation

document. All I can say is thank god we decided in Suffolk to hold fast

to the need for properly prepared CPTs. Other Community Specialist Practice

Nursing disciplines who historically have not had CPTs have had to try and

address the lack of CPTs in these disciplines. This has not been easy and

not always well understood or received. However, where a lack existed and

someone had to be found to 'mentor' a specialist practice student it was

often not at all successful and very stressful for students and mentors

alike. The college lecturers have had real problems at times. I note that

in the consultation document in section on 'Employer and Education use of

Teaching roles it states 'In Midwifery a different picture emerges as these

practitioners have greater autonomy for practice from the point of registration'.

Why doesn't it recognise that it is also the case for health visitors?

I have spent the whole of last week at work advocating for very vulnerable

clients and putting my neck on the line for them. I have represented issues

at the highest levels in the community, acute and local partnership services.

It takes some formidable skills to do this as well as guts and confidence!

The role of nurse practitioners is now being spoken of in sometimes somewhat

hallowed terms yet all they have learnt to do is take their practice further

in that they are able to make referrals. It is so under-recognised that

they are only playing catch-up with us. Their reward is they get H grades.

Lund-Lack