Re: Issey Miyake??- questions on ingredients...

[Guest guest]

I decided to give Liberty a call, and spoke to someone who was helpful

and informative (and patient!)

he said that Liberty buys this as a natural absolute from a producer

in India that they have been dealing with for a very long time. as far

as Liberty knows it's not diluted (and Liberty does not dilute

themselves).

i am going to experiment with other absolutes that i have collected

and see how they act with oil. i already know that Liberty's cocoa

absolute does not mix with fixed oils. i have 2 varieties of cocoa

absolute, one from Liberty, and another from a source that i respect

very highly. i will try them both in oil to see if they react

differently. (i'll also try water).

could it be possible that when saffron is grown, only the best gets

used for the culinary market? perhaps the inferior saffron pieces get

used to make absolute? (perhaps as a byproduct of the culinary industry?)

only someone who has visited the producers would really know, as anya

mentioned.

-linda

The Perfumer's Apprentice

www.perfumersapprentice.com

[Guest guest]

>

i tested both cocoa absolutes in fixed oil (jojoba and fract.

coconut) and neither would blend in all the way, so it could just be

that some absolutes are like that? maybe depending on the solvent?

Below is an excerpt from an email that of Liberty Natural

follwed up with, when I had asked if he could check for the

documentation on this absolute

********************************

Dear

..... As there has been much interest lately in

the Saffron absolute, I've had an opportunity to gather all the

available information regarding the item. The Saffron comes from a

reputable supplier; a distiller in India that we have been in

business

with for a decade or more. (As our computerized records only go back

to the mid 1990's it is difficult to tell exactly when our

relationship began without digging through a few filing cabinets).

The

distiller indicates that the item is pure, natural, and uncut. As a

result you can expect the item to be free of adulterants. One must

remember that all solvent extracted items, including absolutes, will

retain a trace amount of the solvent used in the extraction process.

Having had a chance to review the mass spectrometer plot for the

item,

I've found it to conform to the expected standards of an

unadulterated

absolute with no peak data indicating the presence of synthetics or

other contaminants.

-

[Guest guest]

> >

>

> i tested both cocoa absolutes in fixed oil (jojoba and fract.

> coconut) and neither would blend in all the way, so it could just be

> that some absolutes are like that? maybe depending on the solvent?

>

> Below is an excerpt from an email that of Liberty Natural

> follwed up with, when I had asked if he could check for the

> documentation on this absolute

>

> ********************************

> Dear

>

> .... As there has been much interest lately in

> the Saffron absolute, I've had an opportunity to gather all the

> available information regarding the item. The Saffron comes from a

> reputable supplier; a distiller in India that we have been in

> business

> with for a decade or more. (As our computerized records only go back

> to the mid 1990's it is difficult to tell exactly when our

> relationship began without digging through a few filing cabinets).

> The

> distiller indicates that the item is pure, natural, and uncut. As a

> result you can expect the item to be free of adulterants. One must

> remember that all solvent extracted items, including absolutes, will

> retain a trace amount of the solvent used in the extraction process.

> Having had a chance to review the mass spectrometer plot for the

> item,

> I've found it to conform to the expected standards of an

> unadulterated

> absolute with no peak data indicating the presence of synthetics or

> other contaminants.

>

> -

>

It's very good of Liberty Natural to respond so quickly on this, but verbal

assurances

(though good to hear) cannot be taken on their own as a guarantee of purity. I

wonder if

they would be willing to share their analytical findings.

It still concerns me that this saffron absolute is completely water-soluble. The

fact that

other absolutes may also be wholly water-soluble is not reassuring either. Some

aromatic

molecules do possess some water solubility, but this degree of hydrophilicity

and

lipophobicity surely does not make sense in any genuine absolute.

Adulteration in the form of " extending " with a non-aromatic material is not

something I

know much about, but I know there are a number of possible extenders, and I

believe that

some may be difficult to spot on a gc trace.

Tisserand

[Guest guest]

>

>

> It still concerns me that this saffron absolute is completely

water-soluble. The fact that

> other absolutes may also be wholly water-soluble is not reassuring

either. Some aromatic

> molecules do possess some water solubility, but this degree of

hydrophilicity and

> lipophobicity surely does not make sense in any genuine absolute.

>

> Tisserand

>

hi robert

i had the same type of situation with vanilla absolute, that thick

resin. i bought it from a few places because i was having so much

trouble and wanted to compare. it was not really soluble in oil,

pretty soluble in alcohol (but took a long time) but was completely

soluble in water. have you had experience with this?

i finally gave up and started tincturing and macerating my own beans.

-linda

The Perfumer's Apprentice

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > It still concerns me that this saffron absolute is completely

> water-soluble. The fact that

> > other absolutes may also be wholly water-soluble is not reassuring

> either. Some aromatic

> > molecules do possess some water solubility, but this degree of

> hydrophilicity and

> > lipophobicity surely does not make sense in any genuine absolute.

> >

> > Tisserand

> >

>

> hi robert

> i had the same type of situation with vanilla absolute, that thick

> resin. i bought it from a few places because i was having so much

> trouble and wanted to compare. it was not really soluble in oil,

> pretty soluble in alcohol (but took a long time) but was completely

> soluble in water. have you had experience with this?

> i finally gave up and started tincturing and macerating my own beans.

>

> -linda

> The Perfumer's Apprentice

>

I have a et vanilla absolute, which is pretty fluid, not soluble in oil,

readily soluble in

alcohol, and completely insoluble in water.

Tisserand

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > It still concerns me that this saffron absolute is completely

> water-soluble. The fact that

> > other absolutes may also be wholly water-soluble is not reassuring

> either. Some aromatic

> > molecules do possess some water solubility, but this degree of

> hydrophilicity and

> > lipophobicity surely does not make sense in any genuine absolute.

> >

> > Tisserand

> >

>

> hi robert

> i had the same type of situation with vanilla absolute, that thick

> resin. i bought it from a few places because i was having so much

> trouble and wanted to compare. it was not really soluble in oil,

> pretty soluble in alcohol (but took a long time) but was completely

> soluble in water. have you had experience with this?

> i finally gave up and started tincturing and macerating my own beans.

>

> -linda

> The Perfumer's Apprentice

>

.....But I'm not saying the et vanilla is a great product as far as smell

goes - it lacks

the rich sweetness you expect from vanilla.

Tisserand

[Guest guest]

> i tested both cocoa absolutes in fixed oil (jojoba and fract.

> coconut) and neither would blend in all the way, so it could just be

> that some absolutes are like that? maybe depending on the solvent?

Hi ,

Well, you got me to rumage through a stash of old oils to find some of the " so

called "

Saffron Absolute. Surprisingly, as also found, it is water soluable. And

as I

remembered from some years ago - it also separates from fixed oils.

There are many absolutes (resinoids, oleoresins, etc) that do not blend with

fixed oils,

however, it is the way in which the Saffron absolute separates from the fixed

oil that is

very suspicious to me. It doesn't look or feel right. It looks and acts

differently than when I

try to blend cocao absolute, vanilla absolute, balsam of peru resin, benzoin,

labdanum etc.

I certainly do not know if it is extended with DPG, but the way that it

separates is how an

oil in DPG acts. That was the first clue. That it blends completely in water is

the second

clue. Water solubility is an atribute of DPG (or similar chemical in the same

family: ethylene

glycol, propylene glycol, etc.). DPG feels like an oil, and yet it is completely

water soluble. I

forgot to actually feel the Saffron Absolute while I was in the shop, but try

feeling it

between your fingers, and see if it feels just like a fixed oil does. (Another

idea is to put it

on some blotter paper and see what happens when it dries out.) The third clue is

the price.

The fourth clue is that I do not see Saffron Absolute listed on (any that I

remember)

reputable manufacturers or suppliers product lists. I do see Saffron Oleoresin

and such

occassionally, but haven't checked them out (but now I will).

This field of Essential Oils, Absolutes, etc. is full (very full) of

misinformation,

disinformation, adulteration, substitution, sophistication, extending, etc. etc.

Even fully

trained, professional eo chemists can not tell you 100% truthfully that an oil

is not

adulterated in one form or another by looking at a GC/MS (if it was

professionally

adulterated). But they can offer their professional opinions.

The Saffron Absolute to me is a rather obvious one to be very suspicious of. I

bet it sells

well though.

I have seen another so called Saffron Absolute from India and it was much the

same, I

haven't seen the one that Anya mentioned...

Will Lapaz

Eden Botanicals

[Guest guest]

>

i just wonder if the type of solvent makes a difference. i know

that justin mentioned that alcohol was the solvent for the saffron,

and i also believe that alcohol was the solvent for the vanilla.

since robertet's was fluid, (which i could not find - i was never

able to purchase from robertet because i'm too small)

perhaps theirs was a different solvent? just a thought.

-linda

The Perfumer's Apprentice

[Guest guest]

>

i just wonder if the type of solvent makes a difference. i know

that justin mentioned that alcohol was the solvent for the saffron,

and i also believe that alcohol was the solvent for the vanilla.

since robertet's was fluid, (which i could not find - i was never

able to purchase from robertet because i'm too small)

perhaps theirs was a different solvent? just a thought.

-linda

The Perfumer's Apprentice

[Guest guest]

> i just wonder if the type of solvent makes a difference. i know

> that justin mentioned that alcohol was the solvent for the saffron,

> and i also believe that alcohol was the solvent for the vanilla.

> since robertet's was fluid, (which i could not find - i was never

> able to purchase from robertet because i'm too small)

> perhaps theirs was a different solvent? just a thought.

>

> -linda

> The Perfumer's Apprentice

Hi !

Different solvents are used in the 2 step process for making absolutes.

Typically hexane is

used in step 1, but there are a whole host of other solvents that can be used.

Each

different solvent has the potential to affect the final product, and so

different

manufacturers will use different solvents depending on what they are looking

for.

The second step solvent is typically alcohol (ethyl alcohol, ethanol). There is

usually a trace

and sometimes up to 4 % or so of the alcohol left in the absolute. If an

absolute blends

pretty well into a fixed oil, yet partially separates out after a few days time

- this is an

indication that there may be more than a trace of alcohol in the absolute.

Sometime a

small percentage of alcohol is intentionally left in the absolute to allow it to

be more

pourable, and this causes no concern for the alcohol perfumer, but can be

troublesome to

the fixed oil blender.

The first step solvents are typically completely removed from the absolute

(detectable at

the ppm level only) so the answer to your question would most of the time be -

no. If a

solvent other than alcohol was used in the second step or a unique method of

extraction

(such as the butane extracted " butaflors " ) was performed it very well could make

a

difference. But these extractions are not common.

And, please remember that there are a few solvents such as DPG that are fairly

commonly

added (added - after extraction) to resinoids and some other very thick and

un-pourable

materials simply to make them pourable. Pourable Benzoin is the most common

example...

I believe that the answer as to why some absolutes blend in fixed oils and

others do not

(and why most blend perfectly into alcohol, yet some blend imperfectly) has to

do with the

actual constituents in the absolutes, that were extracted from the plant

material, rather

than the solvents used to extract the product from the plants. (I do not know

the

chemistry here... such as which constituents in Vanilla are not soluable,

etc...)

Best to do is to take Salaam's advise and put up a new bottle on your shelf with

dried

saffron and alcohol in it and make your own tincture. Then you will be sure what

you have.

And to keep looking for the perfect Vanilla absolute....

Will

Eden Botanicals

[Guest guest]

--- ambientgravity33 <tisserand@...> wrote:

>

> > >

> > >

> > > It still concerns me that this saffron absolute

> is completely water-soluble. \

This makes sense to me as a few stamens of saffron

color a small bowl of water yellow. Then that makes

me think that it could be then used as a coloring

agent.

Of course then problem comes that perfume must be

mixed then on water solubility. Is this ok thinking/

possible?

When I get home I' do a test. I bought a small

quantity (maybe 3 oz.) of saffron, non edible, for

altar offering from a Tibetan vendor for $5

Hope this helps

Bb

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