Re: Issey Miyake??- questions on ingredients...

[Guest guest]

(edited to correct topposting and gently snipped)

> Hi everybody....

> I am not versed in many of the scents on the market.

> > Usually not my kind of thing. but a friend came

> over> and he was wearing L'Eau d'Issey Pour Homme by

> miyake.> does anyone know it? on sephora they listed quite

> a> few oils

ok Part 2:

here is what is listed for the notes in this cologne.

Verbena, Tangerine, Cypress, Yuzu Zest, Coriander,

Clary Sage, Geranium Bourbon, Blue Water Lily, Nutmeg,

Saffron, Cinnamon Bark from Ceylon, Amber Tobacco,

Vetiver, Sandalwood, Musk.

I have two questions. Please forgive my untrained and

inexperienced questions....

1. what the heck is yuzu zest

2. What is used in replacement of musk?

3. saffron? how and why would they have used saffron,

there is no saffron eo, am I right?

4. Amber?

5. Tobacco?

I am so curious! Could these be synthetic fragrances

?

thanks!!

Jeanne

[Guest guest]

> 1. what the heck is yuzu zest

> 2. What is used in replacement of musk?

> 3. saffron? how and why would they have used

> saffron,

> there is no saffron eo, am I right?

> 4. Amber?

> 5. Tobacco?

> I am so curious! Could these be synthetic

> fragrances

> ?

> thanks!!

> Jeanne

>

Yuzu is a Japanese citrus-- you can buy the essential

oil from sunrosearomatics.com among many other

suppliers. (zest is the citrus peel)

saffron esssential oil or absolute is carried by

Liberty Natural (and others). Both these suppliers

have tobacco absolute.

Musk and amber are more complicated. Natural

perfumer's have their own ways of creating these and I

am not yet confident enough to share my methods. Maybe

someone else will. Good luck creating your fragrance!

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> saffron esssential oil or absolute is carried by

> Liberty Natural (and others). Both these suppliers

> have tobacco absolute.

>

I have very strong doubts about the existence of absolute or essential

oils of saffron. In nfact to my knowledge they do not exist.

The Saffrron smell comes from Saffranal which is produced from Carotene.

The color of the product is then given by addintg a little of Carotene.

I produce my tincture of Iranian Saffran pistils putting them first

into Sandalwood then after a few month the result into alcohool.

Abdessalaam Attar

www.profumo.it <http://www.profumo.it/>

kodo, La Via del Profumo

[Guest guest]

Edited to correct top post....

> Yuzu is a Japanese citrus-- you can buy the

> essential

> oil from sunrosearomatics.com among many other

> suppliers. (zest is the citrus peel)

>

> saffron esssential oil or absolute is carried by

> Liberty Natural (and others). Both these suppliers

> have tobacco absolute.

>

> Musk and amber are more complicated. Natural

> perfumer's have their own ways of creating these and

> I

> am not yet confident enough to share my methods.

> Maybe

> someone else will. Good luck creating your

> fragrance!

>

>

>

thank you! I had no idea that there was a saffron eo!

thanks for the suppliers!

Jeanne

[Guest guest]

Edited to correct top post and trimmed....

--- salaam_attar007 <salaam@...> wrote:

<Snip>

>

> I produce my tincture of Iranian Saffran pistils

> putting them first

> into Sandalwood then after a few month the result

> into alcohool.

>Abdessalaam Attar

>

>

> www.profumo.it <http://www.profumo.it/>

>

> kodo, La Via del Profumo

hi!

Do you do this for the color, or does it impart a

scent that changes the sandalwood?

Jeanne

[Guest guest]

>

> hi!

> Do you do this for the color, or does it impart a

> scent that changes the sandalwood?

> Jeanne

>

The perfume of the pistils blends exceptionally with Sandalwood.

The result is a deep, oriental, mystic fragrance where the Saffron lover

will fully recognize the aroma of the precious spice.

The color is the major problem, Saffron stains.

Abdessalaam Attar

www.profumo.it <http://www.profumo.it>

kodo, La Via del Profumo

[Guest guest]

> I have very strong doubts about the existence of

> absolute or essential

> oils of saffron. In nfact to my knowledge they do

> not exist.

>

This is interesting. I wish there was some way for

the consumer to know when something is real. I assume

that the reputable companies would only sell the real

thing. So how do you know if saffron absolute exists

or not?

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > I have very strong doubts about the existence of

> > absolute or essential

> > oils of saffron. In nfact to my knowledge they do

> > not exist.

> >

>

>

> This is interesting. I wish there was some way for

> the consumer to know when something is real. I assume

> that the reputable companies would only sell the real

> thing. So how do you know if saffron absolute exists

> or not?

>

>

>

The " volatile constituents " of saffron have been cited as consisting of 50-60%

safranal.

Since safranal is available as an aromachemical it seems very unlikely that pure

safranal

would be offered to the perfumery trade in the guise of, for example, saffron

absolute.

No-one with access to gc equipment would buy it. However, that is itself no

guarantee

that all saffron extracts are 100% natural. Some may be adulterated with some

added

artificial safranal, or indeed other odorants. Safranal, incidentally, is a skin

sensitizer,

regulated by IFRA.

Tisserand

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > I have very strong doubts about the existence of

> > absolute or essential

> > oils of saffron. In nfact to my knowledge they do

> > not exist.

> >

>

>

> This is interesting. I wish there was some way for

> the consumer to know when something is real. I assume

> that the reputable companies would only sell the real

> thing. So how do you know if saffron absolute exists

> or not?

>

>

>

The " volatile constituents " of saffron have been cited as consisting of 50-60%

safranal.

Since safranal is available as an aromachemical it seems very unlikely that pure

safranal

would be offered to the perfumery trade in the guise of, for example, saffron

absolute.

No-one with access to gc equipment would buy it. However, that is itself no

guarantee

that all saffron extracts are 100% natural. Some may be adulterated with some

added

artificial safranal, or indeed other odorants. Safranal, incidentally, is a skin

sensitizer,

regulated by IFRA.

Tisserand

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > > I have very strong doubts about the existence of

> > > absolute or essential

> > > oils of saffron. In nfact to my knowledge they do

> > > not exist.

> > >

i have the saffron absolute from liberty natural. i have also sniffed

safranal, and i have cooked a lot with saffron. the safranal does not

smell to me like real saffron, and to me the absolute does smell

exactly like saffron. my opinion is that it is natural and i really

like it, but it's just an opinion since i don't have testing equipment.

-linda

the Perfumer's Apprentice

[Guest guest]

At 02:38 PM 8/13/2006, you wrote:

>I have very strong doubts about the existence of absolute or essential

>oils of saffron. In nfact to my knowledge they do not exist.

>

>The Saffrron smell comes from Saffranal which is produced from Carotene.

>

>The color of the product is then given by addintg a little of Carotene.

>

>I produce my tincture of Iranian Saffran pistils putting them first

>into Sandalwood then after a few month the result into alcohool.

Hi Salaam:

The tradition of making saffron attars and absolutes has a long tradition

in India, I believe. I trust many of my saffron suppliers, some of whom

have traveled to India and seen the raw materials turned into extracts:

http://www.whitelotusaromatics.com/newsletters/50saffron.html

http://cqoj.typepad.com/chest/2005/05/le_santal_de_no.html

There is a perfume chemist in So. Calif. who is distilling saffron now, in

trials. He's trying to get a colorless one that won't stain.

I also make tinctures,and like them very much.

>

Anya

http://anyasgarden.com/perfumes.htm Parfums Natural

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The Premier Natural Perfume Site Gateway

[Guest guest]

At 07:20 PM 8/13/2006, you wrote:

> >

>The " volatile constituents " of saffron have been cited as consisting of

>50-60% safranal.

>Since safranal is available as an aromachemical it seems very unlikely

>that pure safranal

>would be offered to the perfumery trade in the guise of, for example,

>saffron absolute.

>No-one with access to gc equipment would buy it. However, that is itself

>no guarantee

>that all saffron extracts are 100% natural. Some may be adulterated with

>some added

>artificial safranal, or indeed other odorants. Safranal, incidentally, is

>a skin sensitizer,

>regulated by IFRA.

, not sure about this, but I think it was posted here in the past few

months that safranal can also come from sassafras root, and that is the one

that sensitizes, according to IFRA. Not sure about this!

Anya

http://anyasgarden.com/perfumes.htm Parfums Natural

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The Premier Natural Perfume Site Gateway

[Guest guest]

At 07:20 PM 8/13/2006, you wrote:

> >

>The " volatile constituents " of saffron have been cited as consisting of

>50-60% safranal.

>Since safranal is available as an aromachemical it seems very unlikely

>that pure safranal

>would be offered to the perfumery trade in the guise of, for example,

>saffron absolute.

>No-one with access to gc equipment would buy it. However, that is itself

>no guarantee

>that all saffron extracts are 100% natural. Some may be adulterated with

>some added

>artificial safranal, or indeed other odorants. Safranal, incidentally, is

>a skin sensitizer,

>regulated by IFRA.

, not sure about this, but I think it was posted here in the past few

months that safranal can also come from sassafras root, and that is the one

that sensitizes, according to IFRA. Not sure about this!

Anya

http://anyasgarden.com/perfumes.htm Parfums Natural

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The Premier Natural Perfume Site Gateway

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > This is interesting. I wish there was some way

> for

> > the consumer to know when something is real. I

> assume

> > that the reputable companies would only sell the

> real

> > thing. So how do you know if saffron absolute

> exists

> > or not?

> >

> >

> >

> The " volatile constituents " of saffron have been

> cited as consisting of 50-60% safranal.

> Since safranal is available as an aromachemical it

> seems very unlikely that pure safranal

> would be offered to the perfumery trade in the guise

> of, for example, saffron absolute.

> No-one with access to gc equipment would buy it.

> However, that is itself no guarantee

> that all saffron extracts are 100% natural. Some may

> be adulterated with some added

> artificial safranal, or indeed other odorants.

> Safranal, incidentally, is a skin sensitizer,

> regulated by IFRA.

>

> Tisserand

>

>

>

,

Thanks. Your information is always helpful. I feel

better knowing that saffron absolute prabably does

exist.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > This is interesting. I wish there was some way

> for

> > the consumer to know when something is real. I

> assume

> > that the reputable companies would only sell the

> real

> > thing. So how do you know if saffron absolute

> exists

> > or not?

> >

> >

> >

> The " volatile constituents " of saffron have been

> cited as consisting of 50-60% safranal.

> Since safranal is available as an aromachemical it

> seems very unlikely that pure safranal

> would be offered to the perfumery trade in the guise

> of, for example, saffron absolute.

> No-one with access to gc equipment would buy it.

> However, that is itself no guarantee

> that all saffron extracts are 100% natural. Some may

> be adulterated with some added

> artificial safranal, or indeed other odorants.

> Safranal, incidentally, is a skin sensitizer,

> regulated by IFRA.

>

> Tisserand

>

>

>

,

Thanks. Your information is always helpful. It is

nice to know that saffron absolute probably does

exist. I like the saffron absolute from Liberty

Natural and I think I'll just go on believing that

it's real! I'll also be careful about sensitization.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> No-one with access to gc equipment would buy it. However, that is

itself no guarantee

> that all saffron extracts are 100% natural. Some may be adulterated

with some added

> artificial safranal, or indeed other odorants. Safranal, incidentally,

is a skin sensitizer,

> regulated by IFRA.

>

> Tisserand

>

You will not find in on the natural list of any major compagny (et

ecc) and if you ask them they will tell you that it does not exist.

Commonsense tells that Rose O.E cannot cost just a few bucks a bottle,

in the same way the sheer price of Saffron pistils makes me think that

there is no real saffron absolute or E.O sold on the market.

Abdessalaam Attar

www.profumo.it <http://www.profumo.it/>

kodo, La Via del Profumo

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > No-one with access to gc equipment would buy it. However, that is

> itself no guarantee

> > that all saffron extracts are 100% natural. Some may be adulterated

> with some added

> > artificial safranal, or indeed other odorants. Safranal, incidentally,

> is a skin sensitizer,

> > regulated by IFRA.

> >

> > Tisserand

> >

>

> You will not find in on the natural list of any major compagny (et

> ecc) and if you ask them they will tell you that it does not exist.

>

> Commonsense tells that Rose O.E cannot cost just a few bucks a bottle,

> in the same way the sheer price of Saffron pistils makes me think that

> there is no real saffron absolute or E.O sold on the market.

>

>

>

> Abdessalaam Attar

>

et have offered a saffron resinoid for some years. I believe the last

price I had from

them was about $8,000 per kg. I'm not sure that we can use price as a guide to

purity in

this case because producers such as et may be paying very much less than

we

imagine.

Tisserand

[Guest guest]

> > >

> >The " volatile constituents " of saffron have been cited as consisting of

> >50-60% safranal.

> >Since safranal is available as an aromachemical it seems very unlikely

> >that pure safranal

> >would be offered to the perfumery trade in the guise of, for example,

> >saffron absolute.

> >No-one with access to gc equipment would buy it. However, that is itself

> >no guarantee

> >that all saffron extracts are 100% natural. Some may be adulterated with

> >some added

> >artificial safranal, or indeed other odorants. Safranal, incidentally, is

> >a skin sensitizer,

> >regulated by IFRA.

>

> , not sure about this, but I think it was posted here in the past few

> months that safranal can also come from sassafras root, and that is the one

> that sensitizes, according to IFRA. Not sure about this!

>

>

> Anya

As far a I know IFRA refer simply to safranal, without specifying any particular

origin. I

don't believe there is any safranal in sassafras root oil. Tony Burfield where

are you!?

Tisserand

[Guest guest]

> > >

> >The " volatile constituents " of saffron have been cited as consisting of

> >50-60% safranal.

> >Since safranal is available as an aromachemical it seems very unlikely

> >that pure safranal

> >would be offered to the perfumery trade in the guise of, for example,

> >saffron absolute.

> >No-one with access to gc equipment would buy it. However, that is itself

> >no guarantee

> >that all saffron extracts are 100% natural. Some may be adulterated with

> >some added

> >artificial safranal, or indeed other odorants. Safranal, incidentally, is

> >a skin sensitizer,

> >regulated by IFRA.

>

> , not sure about this, but I think it was posted here in the past few

> months that safranal can also come from sassafras root, and that is the one

> that sensitizes, according to IFRA. Not sure about this!

>

>

> Anya

As far a I know IFRA refer simply to safranal, without specifying any particular

origin. I

don't believe there is any safranal in sassafras root oil. Tony Burfield where

are you!?

Tisserand

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > >

> > > > I have very strong doubts about the existence of

> > > > absolute or essential

> > > > oils of saffron. In nfact to my knowledge they do

> > > > not exist.

> > > >

>

> i have the saffron absolute from liberty natural. i have also sniffed

> safranal, and i have cooked a lot with saffron. the safranal does not

> smell to me like real saffron, and to me the absolute does smell

> exactly like saffron. my opinion is that it is natural and i really

> like it, but it's just an opinion since i don't have testing equipment.

>

> -linda

> the Perfumer's Apprentice

>

Hi , I love the Liberty Natural saffron absolute. I have never smelt

safranal, and

thanks so much for your perspective on this.

Tisserand

[Guest guest]

> >

> > > > > I have very strong doubts about the existence of

> > > > > absolute or essential

> > > > > oils of saffron. In nfact to my knowledge they do

> > > > > not exist.

> > > > >

> >

> > i have the saffron absolute from liberty natural. i have also

> sniffed

> > safranal, and i have cooked a lot with saffron. the safranal does

> not

> > smell to me like real saffron, and to me the absolute does smell

> > exactly like saffron. my opinion is that it is natural and i really

> > like it, but it's just an opinion since i don't have testing

> equipment.

> >

> > -linda

> > the Perfumer's Apprentice

> >

> Hi , I love the Liberty Natural saffron absolute. I have never

> smelt safranal, and

> thanks so much for your perspective on this.

>

> Tisserand

> i also have the libert saffron,and love it xoxoxo Libby

>

>

>

> _

>

[Guest guest]

> > > i have the saffron absolute from liberty natural. i have also

> > sniffed

> > > safranal, and i have cooked a lot with saffron. the safranal does

> > not

> > > smell to me like real saffron, and to me the absolute does smell

> > > exactly like saffron. my opinion is that it is natural and i really

> > > like it, but it's just an opinion since i don't have testing

> > equipment.

> > >

> > > -linda

> > > the Perfumer's Apprentice

> > >

> > Hi , I love the Liberty Natural saffron absolute. I have never

> > smelt safranal, and

> > thanks so much for your perspective on this.

> >

> > Tisserand

>

>

> > i also have the libert saffron,and love it xoxoxo Libby

Several years ago, I also purchased the Saffron Absolute from LN, but it did not

blend with

fixed oils. It seperated completely like oil and water, leading me to believe it

was pre-

diluted in something like DPG which is water miscible but does not blend in

fixed oils. The

price seemed illogically inexpensive to be real saffron absolute anyway, but it

did have a

very nice aroma. I don't remember if I tried dropping some into a cup of water,

but that is

a simple test to detect DPG because the drop disperses over the water when DPG

is used

as a carrier or dilutant. I haven't check to see what LN has lately however, and

it may well

be a different saffron absolute.

Will

Eden Botanicals

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > > > i have the saffron absolute from liberty natural. i have also

> > > sniffed

> > > > safranal, and i have cooked a lot with saffron. the safranal does

> > > not

> > > > smell to me like real saffron, and to me the absolute does smell

> > > > exactly like saffron. my opinion is that it is natural and i really

> > > > like it, but it's just an opinion since i don't have testing

> > > equipment.

> > > >

> > > > -linda

> > > > the Perfumer's Apprentice

> > > >

> > > Hi , I love the Liberty Natural saffron absolute. I have never

> > > smelt safranal, and

> > > thanks so much for your perspective on this.

> > >

> > > Tisserand

> >

> >

> > > i also have the libert saffron,and love it xoxoxo Libby

>

> Several years ago, I also purchased the Saffron Absolute from LN, but it did

not blend

with

> fixed oils. It seperated completely like oil and water, leading me to believe

it was pre-

> diluted in something like DPG which is water miscible but does not blend in

fixed oils.

The

> price seemed illogically inexpensive to be real saffron absolute anyway, but

it did have a

> very nice aroma. I don't remember if I tried dropping some into a cup of

water, but that

is

> a simple test to detect DPG because the drop disperses over the water when DPG

is used

> as a carrier or dilutant. I haven't check to see what LN has lately however,

and it may

well

> be a different saffron absolute.

>

> Will

> Eden Botanicals

>

I think it is the same saffron absolute. I tried mixing with a fixed oil, and it

would not mix.

I tried a drop in some water, and it seemed at home. With a little stirring the

drop mixed

100% into the water. Maybe what we have is a completely or largely natural

absolute that

has been diluted in something like DPG - explaining price discrepancies. I

wonder what

ratio of DPG to absolute you would need to attain water solubility.

Tisserand

[Guest guest]

Just to answer a few points from this discussion I shall not quote a

particular post.

Saffrol which is taken from Sassafras (of which it is 80%) has a

completely different smell than Saffron (major constituent Saffranal

cheaply made from cheap Carotene) and it is a completely different

molecule.

By the way my chemist consultant tells me is is very easy to make extasy

from saffrol.

The price of saffron pistils is indeed a strong argument to doubt the

existence of OE or absolute of Saffron, I know it as I buy from

producers in Italy and from wholesalers in Asia.

In fact the fact that NL saffron is diluted in DPG just shows that what

they call absolute is not absolute. How reliable are they?

There is a strong romantic connotation in the NP group in the will to

believe that the thing really exists, but reason is the support of my

faith and knowing the price and the limited production that the planet

provides, as well as the huge culinary market (very much adulterated

itself) I still have very strong doubts.

I am surprised that an expert such as discovers just now DPG in

his absolute.

et and others in Grasse are closed for a week more but I shall

certainly call them and ask et (of whom I am customer as well)

about their passed Saffron resinoid, and about the availability of

Saffron pistils O.E and absolute on the international market.

In any case the tincture obtained from just a few grams of pistils is

strong enough to insert the saffron note in a composition. It is even

too strong, seeing that it stains so much and that a staining perfume is

practically unsellable.

My chemist friend tells me that there is a chemical way to take the

color (croktene) out, though.

Thanks to Will and for their sharing their knowledge, once I was

teaching , I am now learning from her.

Abdessalaam Attar

www.profumo.it <http://www.profumo.it/>

kodo, La Via del Profumo

[Guest guest]

At 11:38 PM 8/14/2006, you wrote:

> > a simple test to detect DPG because the drop disperses over the water

> when DPG is used

> > as a carrier or dilutant. I haven't check to see what LN has lately

> however, and it may

>well

> > be a different saffron absolute.

> >

> > Will

> > Eden Botanicals

> >

>I think it is the same saffron absolute. I tried mixing with a fixed oil,

>and it would not mix.

>I tried a drop in some water, and it seemed at home. With a little

>stirring the drop mixed

>100% into the water. Maybe what we have is a completely or largely natural

>absolute that

>has been diluted in something like DPG - explaining price discrepancies. I

>wonder what

>ratio of DPG to absolute you would need to attain water solubility.

>

> Tisserand

Will, -- thanks for your insight. Want to hear how I got my saffron

abs from Liberty? A long time ago I ordered their smallest bottle of Mitti,

to see how it compared to my stash. They sent saffron abs by mistake! I

called, they resent the right stuff. I never played around with the

saffron, mainly due to the staining, and I haven't been inspired to make a

perfume containing it.

Does DPG mix with alcohol? Somebody should write them about this. I wish

of WL was on the group -- he's not the group type, his

account bounced while he was here, couldn't get back on -- he's seen

saffron attar production in India.

Another supplier sent me a saffron whole flower absolute, with a slight

vanilla scent. Have you come across this?

Anya

http://anyasgarden.com/perfumes.htm Parfums Natural

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The Premier Natural Perfume Site Gateway