ATF Prohibits Perfumes Made With Drinking Alcohol ??

[Guest guest]

At 11:41 AM 5/31/2006, you wrote:

> " Campen " <dcampen@> wrote:

> > >> This is just not correct. Snowdrift farns should remove this

> > >> misinformation from their web site. Once someone has purchased

>Tax Paid alcohol they are free to use it in manufacturing perfumes for

>sale.

> > >> Of course, this is just my lay opinion.

> > >>

> > >> Trina, are you a lawyer?

I want to remind everyone on this group that we can debate but we *cannot*

make it personal. We're known for our friendly banter, and I want it kept

that way.

> > > Hi all, I trust that the following official response from BATF

>(Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms) clears up any confusion:

> > >

> > > " If the alcoholic products that you use ( " Vodka or Everclear " )

>have

> > > had the Federal excise tax paid, and if the products that you

>produce are

> > > unfit for beverage use, then you may offer your products to the

>public

> > > without a permit from us (the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade

>Bureau).

I'm reading this and see a big gap. They do not regard adding aromatics as

making it " unfit for beverage use " . This is also an issue with herbal

tinctures.

>Dear Friends,

>

>No, I am not an attorney. Does that really matter? Are any of you

>lawyers? Are you saying only lawyers can understand and abide by the

>law?

>

>All sniping aside, I fail to understand your point. Quoting you:

>

> " The term " unfit for beverage use " means that a normal person would

>not consume the product as an alcoholic beverage. "

>

>Are you saying that the alcohol you purchase at the liquor store and

>use to make your perfumes is NOT suitable for consumption? Why is it

>sold at a liquor store?

Trina backs up my previous challenge to the BATF agent's letter. It is a

big issue, and parts of it are still very unclear to me, and it could have

negative legal consequences for the perfumer who doesn't get it all straight.

>Please read the law in its entirety and make your decisions however

>you please.

I know that the onus is on the end user/producer (us). I know that when I

order alcohol I agree to a disclaimer that I know and abide by my state

laws. I cannot tell you the confusion my lawyer had talking with BATF! This

was about two years ago, when I paired with an herbal tincture producer in

Northern Florida because she was concerned about a perceived 153-proof

limit in the state statutes.

I just reread a lengthy post by Trina few days ago on all this -- I suggest

y'all go back and read it. I know I said at the time I was going to print

all this out and study it, and I didn't have time yet. All I know is that

Trina did her homework and decided to sell a product in such a manner that

the purchaser would be protected.

Marcia -- what is your take on all this?

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

[Guest guest]

" The term " unfit for beverage use " means that a normal person would

not consume the product as an alcoholic beverage. "

Are you saying that the alcohol you purchase at the liquor store and

use to make your perfumes is NOT suitable for consumption? Why is it

sold at a liquor store?

Trina, et. al.

The alcohol itself is suitable for consumption, however if things are added

to it that aren't suitable for consumption (Meaning internal use) then it

seems they don't have a problem as long as you have paid the Taxes...

Meaning that you go through the retail and not through the wholesale...

That's just what I glean from the information presented. Also you can send

a sample to see if it's unfit for consumption...

Now this presents a different dilemma for me... The fact that I know that

your skin can absorb said perfumes, etc. (being a Trained Massage therapist

I've learned that not to mention the plethora of patches that have come out

that prove that skin is a way to the blood stream.) I don't want to cast

aspersions because I don't know everything, and sometimes lawyers just make

things worse... Not saying they're bad, just saying that they like to spin

things too.

[Guest guest]

" The term " unfit for beverage use " means that a normal person would

not consume the product as an alcoholic beverage. "

Are you saying that the alcohol you purchase at the liquor store and

use to make your perfumes is NOT suitable for consumption? Why is it

sold at a liquor store?

Trina, et. al.

The alcohol itself is suitable for consumption, however if things are added

to it that aren't suitable for consumption (Meaning internal use) then it

seems they don't have a problem as long as you have paid the Taxes...

Meaning that you go through the retail and not through the wholesale...

That's just what I glean from the information presented. Also you can send

a sample to see if it's unfit for consumption...

Now this presents a different dilemma for me... The fact that I know that

your skin can absorb said perfumes, etc. (being a Trained Massage therapist

I've learned that not to mention the plethora of patches that have come out

that prove that skin is a way to the blood stream.) I don't want to cast

aspersions because I don't know everything, and sometimes lawyers just make

things worse... Not saying they're bad, just saying that they like to spin

things too.

[Guest guest]

________________________________

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Anya

Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 11:23 AM

Subject: Re: Re: ATF Prohibits Perfumes Made With

Drinking Alcohol ??

I know that the onus is on the end user/producer (us). I know that

when I

order alcohol I agree to a disclaimer that I know and abide by my

state

laws. I cannot tell you the confusion my lawyer had talking with

BATF! This

was about two years ago, when I paired with an herbal tincture

producer in

Northern Florida because she was concerned about a perceived

153-proof

limit in the state statutes.

I just reread a lengthy post by Trina few days ago on all this -- I

suggest

y'all go back and read it. I know I said at the time I was going to

print

all this out and study it, and I didn't have time yet. All I know is

that

Trina did her homework and decided to sell a product in such a

manner that

the purchaser would be protected.

Marcia -- what is your take on all this?

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers

Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural

Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

Hi All,

I believe that " unfit for human consumption " would include a wide range of

perfumes and cosmetic products that contain alcohol, and obviously the BATF

opinion submitted by penchantdefleur leads one in a practical direction. If

you are producing/selling something that is *meant* to be consumed, and you

call it perfume not a beverage, then, obviously you could be challenged by

BATF if discovered. This would be fraudulent, and this is what they wish to

control by the regulations. It's really about tax revenue. However, I

think that BATF, like the FDA, has ways to help you into compliance without

immediate punitive measures if what you are doing is legitimate. There are

thousands of perfumes sold every day. Sold by companies or corporations who

manufacture or import them. The same permit or licensing they obtain is

available to any small manufacturer/distributor.

The key phrase from BATF is " consumed by a normal person " , meaning sensible

adults. If crazed druggies purchase or steal your perfumes to include in

their latest meth concoction, and if it happens so often as to alert the

authorities to you as the manufacturer, specifically, then you will probably

have to negotiate a reasonable agreement with the authorities to help

prevent such abuse such as those steps taken with cold meds containing

ephedrine. Since we don't' see anything like this happening (at least at

this time) with alcohol-based perfumes in general, we are probably never

going to have to deal with something like that. In the meantime, however,

I think we are all reasonably covered by keeping to the law in our

respective states and following their licensing procedures, which are tied

to BATF regulations. If you approach your state liquor control board for a

permit or licensing, you can ask questions about your intended use and

specific products to satisfy your understanding of compliance in this

regard. They may direct you to BATF, but I'd have a dialog locally in lieu

of going that direction first.

Be Well,

Marcia Elston http://www.wingedseed.com

" Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot. " Hausa Saying from

Nigeria

[Guest guest]

________________________________

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Anya

Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 11:23 AM

Subject: Re: Re: ATF Prohibits Perfumes Made With

Drinking Alcohol ??

I know that the onus is on the end user/producer (us). I know that

when I

order alcohol I agree to a disclaimer that I know and abide by my

state

laws. I cannot tell you the confusion my lawyer had talking with

BATF! This

was about two years ago, when I paired with an herbal tincture

producer in

Northern Florida because she was concerned about a perceived

153-proof

limit in the state statutes.

I just reread a lengthy post by Trina few days ago on all this -- I

suggest

y'all go back and read it. I know I said at the time I was going to

print

all this out and study it, and I didn't have time yet. All I know is

that

Trina did her homework and decided to sell a product in such a

manner that

the purchaser would be protected.

Marcia -- what is your take on all this?

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers

Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural

Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

Hi All,

I believe that " unfit for human consumption " would include a wide range of

perfumes and cosmetic products that contain alcohol, and obviously the BATF

opinion submitted by penchantdefleur leads one in a practical direction. If

you are producing/selling something that is *meant* to be consumed, and you

call it perfume not a beverage, then, obviously you could be challenged by

BATF if discovered. This would be fraudulent, and this is what they wish to

control by the regulations. It's really about tax revenue. However, I

think that BATF, like the FDA, has ways to help you into compliance without

immediate punitive measures if what you are doing is legitimate. There are

thousands of perfumes sold every day. Sold by companies or corporations who

manufacture or import them. The same permit or licensing they obtain is

available to any small manufacturer/distributor.

The key phrase from BATF is " consumed by a normal person " , meaning sensible

adults. If crazed druggies purchase or steal your perfumes to include in

their latest meth concoction, and if it happens so often as to alert the

authorities to you as the manufacturer, specifically, then you will probably

have to negotiate a reasonable agreement with the authorities to help

prevent such abuse such as those steps taken with cold meds containing

ephedrine. Since we don't' see anything like this happening (at least at

this time) with alcohol-based perfumes in general, we are probably never

going to have to deal with something like that. In the meantime, however,

I think we are all reasonably covered by keeping to the law in our

respective states and following their licensing procedures, which are tied

to BATF regulations. If you approach your state liquor control board for a

permit or licensing, you can ask questions about your intended use and

specific products to satisfy your understanding of compliance in this

regard. They may direct you to BATF, but I'd have a dialog locally in lieu

of going that direction first.

Be Well,

Marcia Elston http://www.wingedseed.com

" Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot. " Hausa Saying from

Nigeria

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> Please read the law in its entirety and make your

> > decisions however

> > you please.

> >

>

>

>

> Hi all

>

> I am not a lawyer either, but I do have some

> background reading and interpreting legal documents,

> and I had a hard time understanding Title 27 which I

> read in its entirety (ack!). It does say:

>

> § 1.62 Use of distilled spirits or wine for

> experimental purposes and in manufacture of

> nonbeverage products.

>

> The use of distilled spirits or wine for experimental

> purposes and in the manufacture of (a) medicinal,

> pharmaceutical, or antiseptic products, including

> prescriptions compounded by retail druggists; (

> toilet preparations; © flavoring extracts, syrups,

> or food products; or (d) scientific, chemical,

> mechanical, or industrial products, provided such

> products are unfit for beverage use, is regarded as

> " industrial, " and will be excluded from any

> application of the term " nonindustrial use. "

>

> -----------------------------------------------------

>

> Not entirely clear, but it suggests to me that

> perfume, as a toilet preparation, would not be subject

> to any requirements (permits or the like) that a

> drinkable form (i.e. " nonindustrial use " ) of alcohol

> would be. I sure would be interested if the folks who

> claim you need a permit to sell perfume with

> undenatured alcohol could point me to the exact part

> of the law that says so.

>

> In the meantime, the best bet is to go with the

> official opinion from the BATF on this issue, which

> another member posted (thanks!)which said that if your

> product you produce with non-denatured alcohol is

> unfit for drinking (can't imagine any perfumes you'd

> want to drink)then you can sell it and you don't need

> a permit.

>

> -Patty

Thanks for both pieces of info - Section 1.62 of Title 27 and the

BATF opinion letter. Between the two, it seems quite clear to me that

there is _no_ Federal prohibtion against selling fragrance

preparations made using tax paid drinking alcohol.