ATF Prohibits Perfumes Made With Drinking Alcohol ??

[Guest guest]

Butch Owen wrote:

>

> Hi Trina,

>

> >>I just read the following on a website: STOP USING VODKA!

> >>Did you know that per US Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms laws, the sale

> >>of perfumes made with vodka or Everclear are not allowed?

> >>

> >>Thank you much!

> >>

> Is this prohibition in writing .. on an ATF web site .. or is it an

> interpretation or opinion?

>

What Butch is saying makes sense.....because if one uses high proof

(190) vodka or high proof (190) Everclear, the Federal Government, and

your State has already collected their taxes on the stuff when you buy

it....

So BATF really shouldn't be concerned....

I've often thought that Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms are such diverse

commodities that it was interesting that they fell under one agency's

jurisdiction...

It's the tax $$ that unites them, I guess...

On the other hand.....I once worked as a convenience store

employee......

Because my store sold beer and malt beverages.......someone who had a

bartender's license had to be in the store during all legal alcohol sale

hours....

Now....that was a local requirement (Milwaukee, WI), rather than the

Feds....

Also in Milwaukee....there are many establishments that sell alcohol

based perfumes where this is not required....

And...Listerine type mouthwash is 40 proof or so.....but no license

requirement for that particular commodity, either....

--

W. Bourbonais

L'Hermite Aromatique

[Guest guest]

Butch Owen wrote:

>

> Hi Trina,

>

> >>I just read the following on a website: STOP USING VODKA!

> >>Did you know that per US Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms laws, the sale

> >>of perfumes made with vodka or Everclear are not allowed?

> >>

> >>Thank you much!

> >>

> Is this prohibition in writing .. on an ATF web site .. or is it an

> interpretation or opinion?

>

What Butch is saying makes sense.....because if one uses high proof

(190) vodka or high proof (190) Everclear, the Federal Government, and

your State has already collected their taxes on the stuff when you buy

it....

So BATF really shouldn't be concerned....

I've often thought that Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms are such diverse

commodities that it was interesting that they fell under one agency's

jurisdiction...

It's the tax $$ that unites them, I guess...

On the other hand.....I once worked as a convenience store

employee......

Because my store sold beer and malt beverages.......someone who had a

bartender's license had to be in the store during all legal alcohol sale

hours....

Now....that was a local requirement (Milwaukee, WI), rather than the

Feds....

Also in Milwaukee....there are many establishments that sell alcohol

based perfumes where this is not required....

And...Listerine type mouthwash is 40 proof or so.....but no license

requirement for that particular commodity, either....

--

W. Bourbonais

L'Hermite Aromatique

[Guest guest]

Hi Trina,

>>I just read the following on a website: STOP USING VODKA!

>>Did you know that per US Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms laws, the sale

>>of perfumes made with vodka or Everclear are not allowed?

>>

>>Thank you much!

>>

>

> Hi ,

>

> That's from our website!

>

> The reason that the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) forbids the

sale

> of " perfumes " made with drinking alcohols is because you are now

> construed as " serving " -- and of course, we assume, you have no

license

> to serve drinking alcohol? The US Federal government is not interested

> in whether you have added essential oils, they are only interested in

> collecting all the taxes due to them and to prevent illegal

consumption.

>

> Trina at Snowdrift Farm

Butch responded:

>>Is this prohibition in writing .. on an ATF web site .. or is it an

interpretation or opinion?

I doubt if ATF is too concerned about illegal consumption of bonded

alcoholic beverages .. and when someone buys Vodka or Everclear from a

liquor store the Gummit is getting their taxes.

If this prohibition is real .. then it has far reaching effects .. and I

betcha folks would like to know if its real.

I did a search and found something that makes sense but I doubt if one

can get their tax back .. still .. worth looking at.

<http://www.ttb.gov/lab/non_beverage_products.htm>

http://www.ttb.gov/lab/non_beverage_products.htm

<http://www.ttb.gov/alcohol/info/faq/spirits.htm>

http://www.ttb.gov/alcohol/info/faq/spirits.htm

<http://search.treas.gov/search?output=xml_no_dtd & client=ttb & site=ttb & pr

oxystylesheet=ttb & query=perfume & image.x=46 & image.y=7>

http://search.treas.gov/search?output=xml_no_dtd & client=ttb & site=ttb & pro

xystylesheet=ttb & query=perfume & image.x=46 & image.y=7

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch <http://www.AV-AT.com>

http://www.AV-AT.com<<

Dear Butch,

While it is true that " drawback " is available for manufacturers who

choose to use fully taxed spirits, the process is time-consuming and

adds cost to your product. And you still must obtain a license and pay

excise taxes. There is no legal loophole. This is why the specially

denatured alcohol exists. The direct use of either SD alcohol or

beverage alcohol has requirements that many small perfumers may not wish

to go through.

Here is the process for obtaining a refund of the tax on beverage

alcohol (per the TTB website):

. Obtain a tax stamp from TTB's

<http://ntcdevweb19/ttb_internet_prototype/nrc/contact.html> National

Revenue Center (NRC)

. Complete Packet Form 5154.1 Formula and Process for Nonbeverage

Product

. Submit a composition of the product and 4 ounce sample of the

finished product to:

Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau

Nonbeverage Products Laboratory

6000 Ammendale Road

Ammendale, MD 20705-1250

. The approval process takes up to three weeks

. Upon approval the manufacture may file a claim with the NRC to

drawback the excise tax.

Technically, you must be licensed to use taxed spirits in your products.

The first step is to obtain a permit and tax stamp. Licensees must pay a

yearly tax to keep the license and are required to file reports about

alcohol usage. The second step is approval of your formula. Each and

every formula must be approved separately. A narrow range of

concentration may be specified for each component, but a new product

will need a new approval. The drawback process is mainly for

manufacturers of edible products. Tinctures, food flavorings and similar

products need to be produced from drinkable alcohol.

Since the same process for licensure and product approval is also

required for products made with SD alcohol, why pay the beverage tax and

then go through the hassle of trying to get it back? Some exceptions to

the pre-approval rule do exist, but you still must obtain a license and

pay excise taxes. See http://tinyurl.com/hqokv has the regulations of

the use and distribution of SD alcohol.

The use of pre-approved alcohol bases eliminates the need to travel

through this time-consuming and costly regulatory process. The Snowdrift

Farm perfumery alcohols offered for sale by us to consumers have been

approved by ATF for direct unlimited distribution to consumers. Our

approved alcohol blends may be used in any manner without government

restriction by the consumer in cosmetic applications that SD 40B alcohol

is approved for. These products may then be sold and distributed without

restriction. In a nutshell, this means you can purchase our perfumer's

alcohols and resell them for any purpose. You can buy them from us and

resell them, as is. The same can not be said for beverage alcohol or any

SD alcohol.

I hope this explanation is helpful to you.

In re: your statement above " I doubt if ATF is too concerned about

illegal consumption of bonded alcoholic beverages .. and when someone

buys Vodka or Everclear from a liquor store the Gummit is getting their

taxes. "

I don't know if many ATF employees share that opinion. I hope not.

Happy Memorial Day to all.

Sincerely,

Trina at Snowdrift Farm

[Guest guest]

Hi Trina,

>>I just read the following on a website: STOP USING VODKA!

>>Did you know that per US Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms laws, the sale

>>of perfumes made with vodka or Everclear are not allowed?

>>

>>Thank you much!

>>

>

> Hi ,

>

> That's from our website!

>

> The reason that the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) forbids the

sale

> of " perfumes " made with drinking alcohols is because you are now

> construed as " serving " -- and of course, we assume, you have no

license

> to serve drinking alcohol? The US Federal government is not interested

> in whether you have added essential oils, they are only interested in

> collecting all the taxes due to them and to prevent illegal

consumption.

>

> Trina at Snowdrift Farm

Butch responded:

>>Is this prohibition in writing .. on an ATF web site .. or is it an

interpretation or opinion?

I doubt if ATF is too concerned about illegal consumption of bonded

alcoholic beverages .. and when someone buys Vodka or Everclear from a

liquor store the Gummit is getting their taxes.

If this prohibition is real .. then it has far reaching effects .. and I

betcha folks would like to know if its real.

I did a search and found something that makes sense but I doubt if one

can get their tax back .. still .. worth looking at.

<http://www.ttb.gov/lab/non_beverage_products.htm>

http://www.ttb.gov/lab/non_beverage_products.htm

<http://www.ttb.gov/alcohol/info/faq/spirits.htm>

http://www.ttb.gov/alcohol/info/faq/spirits.htm

<http://search.treas.gov/search?output=xml_no_dtd & client=ttb & site=ttb & pr

oxystylesheet=ttb & query=perfume & image.x=46 & image.y=7>

http://search.treas.gov/search?output=xml_no_dtd & client=ttb & site=ttb & pro

xystylesheet=ttb & query=perfume & image.x=46 & image.y=7

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch <http://www.AV-AT.com>

http://www.AV-AT.com<<

Dear Butch,

While it is true that " drawback " is available for manufacturers who

choose to use fully taxed spirits, the process is time-consuming and

adds cost to your product. And you still must obtain a license and pay

excise taxes. There is no legal loophole. This is why the specially

denatured alcohol exists. The direct use of either SD alcohol or

beverage alcohol has requirements that many small perfumers may not wish

to go through.

Here is the process for obtaining a refund of the tax on beverage

alcohol (per the TTB website):

. Obtain a tax stamp from TTB's

<http://ntcdevweb19/ttb_internet_prototype/nrc/contact.html> National

Revenue Center (NRC)

. Complete Packet Form 5154.1 Formula and Process for Nonbeverage

Product

. Submit a composition of the product and 4 ounce sample of the

finished product to:

Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau

Nonbeverage Products Laboratory

6000 Ammendale Road

Ammendale, MD 20705-1250

. The approval process takes up to three weeks

. Upon approval the manufacture may file a claim with the NRC to

drawback the excise tax.

Technically, you must be licensed to use taxed spirits in your products.

The first step is to obtain a permit and tax stamp. Licensees must pay a

yearly tax to keep the license and are required to file reports about

alcohol usage. The second step is approval of your formula. Each and

every formula must be approved separately. A narrow range of

concentration may be specified for each component, but a new product

will need a new approval. The drawback process is mainly for

manufacturers of edible products. Tinctures, food flavorings and similar

products need to be produced from drinkable alcohol.

Since the same process for licensure and product approval is also

required for products made with SD alcohol, why pay the beverage tax and

then go through the hassle of trying to get it back? Some exceptions to

the pre-approval rule do exist, but you still must obtain a license and

pay excise taxes. See http://tinyurl.com/hqokv has the regulations of

the use and distribution of SD alcohol.

The use of pre-approved alcohol bases eliminates the need to travel

through this time-consuming and costly regulatory process. The Snowdrift

Farm perfumery alcohols offered for sale by us to consumers have been

approved by ATF for direct unlimited distribution to consumers. Our

approved alcohol blends may be used in any manner without government

restriction by the consumer in cosmetic applications that SD 40B alcohol

is approved for. These products may then be sold and distributed without

restriction. In a nutshell, this means you can purchase our perfumer's

alcohols and resell them for any purpose. You can buy them from us and

resell them, as is. The same can not be said for beverage alcohol or any

SD alcohol.

I hope this explanation is helpful to you.

In re: your statement above " I doubt if ATF is too concerned about

illegal consumption of bonded alcoholic beverages .. and when someone

buys Vodka or Everclear from a liquor store the Gummit is getting their

taxes. "

I don't know if many ATF employees share that opinion. I hope not.

Happy Memorial Day to all.

Sincerely,

Trina at Snowdrift Farm

[Guest guest]

Hi Trina,

>>I just read the following on a website: STOP USING VODKA!

>>Did you know that per US Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms laws, the sale

>>of perfumes made with vodka or Everclear are not allowed?

>>

>>Thank you much!

>>

>

> Hi ,

>

> That's from our website!

>

> The reason that the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) forbids the sale

> of " perfumes " made with drinking alcohols is because you are now

> construed as " serving " -- and of course, we assume, you have no license

> to serve drinking alcohol? The US Federal government is not interested

> in whether you have added essential oils, they are only interested in

> collecting all the taxes due to them and to prevent illegal consumption.

>

> Trina at Snowdrift Farm

Is this prohibition in writing .. on an ATF web site .. or is it an

interpretation or opinion?

I doubt if ATF is too concerned about illegal consumption of bonded

alcoholic beverages .. and when someone buys Vodka or Everclear from a

liquor store the Gummit is getting their taxes.

If this prohibition is real .. then it has far reaching effects .. and I

betcha folks would like to know if its real.

I did a search and found something that makes sense but I doubt if one

can get their tax back .. still .. worth looking at.

http://www.ttb.gov/lab/non_beverage_products.htm

http://www.ttb.gov/alcohol/info/faq/spirits.htm

http://search.treas.gov/search?output=xml_no_dtd & client=ttb & site=ttb & proxystyles\

heet=ttb & query=perfume & image.x=46 & image.y=7

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch http://www.AV-AT.com

[Guest guest]

________________________________

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Butch Owen

Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 5:53 PM

Subject: ATF Prohibits Perfumes Made With

Drinking Alcohol ??

Is this prohibition in writing .. on an ATF web site .. or is it an

interpretation or opinion?

I doubt if ATF is too concerned about illegal consumption of bonded

alcoholic beverages .. and when someone buys Vodka or Everclear from

a

liquor store the Gummit is getting their taxes.

If this prohibition is real .. then it has far reaching effects ..

and I

betcha folks would like to know if its real.

I did a search and found something that makes sense but I doubt if

one

can get their tax back .. still .. worth looking at.

http://www.ttb.gov/lab/non_beverage_products.htm

http://www.ttb.gov/alcohol/info/faq/spirits.htm

http://search.treas.gov/search?output=xml_no_dtd & client=ttb & site=ttb & proxyst

ylesheet=ttb & query=perfume & image.x=46 & image.y=7

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch http://www.AV-AT.com

Hi , Trina, Butch,

All alcohol SALES are granted by the state you operate in, with varying

licensing requirements and procedures. In the state of WA, I purchase an

annual license (permit) to purchase and sell alcohol (even Everclear) in my

manufactured products. I have to declare in advance the amount I will

purchase each year and keep track of inventory usage. It's a simple

procedure run through our state liquor control board, who also issue

licenses to those who sell for consumption.

I do not think that federal law supercedes state law in this regard; the

states are required to abide by ATF regs. Can you show us the exact ATF law

you refer to, Trina? We should clear this up; folks seem to be getting

paranoid and I don't think they need be.

Be Well,

Marcia Elston http://www.wingedseed.com

" Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot. " Hausa Saying from

Nigeria

[Guest guest]

________________________________

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Butch Owen

Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 5:53 PM

Subject: ATF Prohibits Perfumes Made With

Drinking Alcohol ??

Is this prohibition in writing .. on an ATF web site .. or is it an

interpretation or opinion?

I doubt if ATF is too concerned about illegal consumption of bonded

alcoholic beverages .. and when someone buys Vodka or Everclear from

a

liquor store the Gummit is getting their taxes.

If this prohibition is real .. then it has far reaching effects ..

and I

betcha folks would like to know if its real.

I did a search and found something that makes sense but I doubt if

one

can get their tax back .. still .. worth looking at.

http://www.ttb.gov/lab/non_beverage_products.htm

http://www.ttb.gov/alcohol/info/faq/spirits.htm

http://search.treas.gov/search?output=xml_no_dtd & client=ttb & site=ttb & proxyst

ylesheet=ttb & query=perfume & image.x=46 & image.y=7

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch http://www.AV-AT.com

Hi , Trina, Butch,

All alcohol SALES are granted by the state you operate in, with varying

licensing requirements and procedures. In the state of WA, I purchase an

annual license (permit) to purchase and sell alcohol (even Everclear) in my

manufactured products. I have to declare in advance the amount I will

purchase each year and keep track of inventory usage. It's a simple

procedure run through our state liquor control board, who also issue

licenses to those who sell for consumption.

I do not think that federal law supercedes state law in this regard; the

states are required to abide by ATF regs. Can you show us the exact ATF law

you refer to, Trina? We should clear this up; folks seem to be getting

paranoid and I don't think they need be.

Be Well,

Marcia Elston http://www.wingedseed.com

" Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot. " Hausa Saying from

Nigeria

[Guest guest]

Hi , Trina, Butch,

All alcohol SALES are granted by the state you operate in, with varying

licensing requirements and procedures. In the state of WA, I purchase

an

annual license (permit) to purchase and sell alcohol (even Everclear) in

my

manufactured products. I have to declare in advance the amount I will

purchase each year and keep track of inventory usage. It's a simple

procedure run through our state liquor control board, who also issue

licenses to those who sell for consumption.

I do not think that federal law supercedes state law in this regard; the

states are required to abide by ATF regs. Can you show us the exact ATF

law

you refer to, Trina? We should clear this up; folks seem to be getting

paranoid and I don't think they need be.

Be Well,

Marcia Elston http://www.wingedseed.com

" Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot. " Hausa Saying from

Nigeria

Dear Marcia,

Thank you for your reply. I think discussion of the subject is the best

way to understand it. Reading through the law is what inspired us to

begin selling specially denatured alcohol for perfumery purposes. I hope

we are not making anybody paranoid. We simply wish to stay within the

letter of the law.

The references for the ATF regulations that speak to specially denatured

alcohol sales can be found at 27 CFR Parts 19, 20 and 21. The ATF

regulations that speak to tax-free sales of alcohol can be found at 27

CFR Part 22. Specific information regarding who can and who can not sell

liquor is available at 27 CFR Part 31:23.You can read these laws in full

at <http://tinyurl.com/loajc> http://tinyurl.com/loajc. I highly

recommend that any person who intends to sell perfumes or any type of

alcohol become familiar with the entire federal law as provided at 27

CFR. The law is to be taken in total, not in small parts.

Individual states may collect the taxes for the federal government and

administer their rules. It is my understanding from reading the State of

Washington's Liquor Control Board website, that its authority to operate

is pursuant to federal law, specifically, 27 CFR. The rules pertaining

to inventory taking and other record keeping you may have to provide to

the Liquor Control Board are taken from 27 CFR. In reading the

Washington State law, as provided at the state's Liquor Control Board

website, it seems that their rules pertain only to beverage alcohol,

which is, apparently, what you are using to make your products? There do

not seem to be any references within the Washington state law to

specially denatured alcohol and its use in perfumery (though I might

have missed something while reading through the law). In this case, it

would seem to me, federal law applies.

Bottom line: No matter what avenue you choose to take and whether you

choose to use beverage alcohol or specially denatured alcohol, you must

pay taxes and obtain permits, as you have stated you have to do --

UNLESS you use a pre-approved alcohol such as we sell at Snowdrift Farm.

Trina at http://www.snowdriftfarm.com

[Guest guest]

Hi , Trina, Butch,

All alcohol SALES are granted by the state you operate in, with varying

licensing requirements and procedures. In the state of WA, I purchase

an

annual license (permit) to purchase and sell alcohol (even Everclear) in

my

manufactured products. I have to declare in advance the amount I will

purchase each year and keep track of inventory usage. It's a simple

procedure run through our state liquor control board, who also issue

licenses to those who sell for consumption.

I do not think that federal law supercedes state law in this regard; the

states are required to abide by ATF regs. Can you show us the exact ATF

law

you refer to, Trina? We should clear this up; folks seem to be getting

paranoid and I don't think they need be.

Be Well,

Marcia Elston http://www.wingedseed.com

" Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot. " Hausa Saying from

Nigeria

Dear Marcia,

Thank you for your reply. I think discussion of the subject is the best

way to understand it. Reading through the law is what inspired us to

begin selling specially denatured alcohol for perfumery purposes. I hope

we are not making anybody paranoid. We simply wish to stay within the

letter of the law.

The references for the ATF regulations that speak to specially denatured

alcohol sales can be found at 27 CFR Parts 19, 20 and 21. The ATF

regulations that speak to tax-free sales of alcohol can be found at 27

CFR Part 22. Specific information regarding who can and who can not sell

liquor is available at 27 CFR Part 31:23.You can read these laws in full

at <http://tinyurl.com/loajc> http://tinyurl.com/loajc. I highly

recommend that any person who intends to sell perfumes or any type of

alcohol become familiar with the entire federal law as provided at 27

CFR. The law is to be taken in total, not in small parts.

Individual states may collect the taxes for the federal government and

administer their rules. It is my understanding from reading the State of

Washington's Liquor Control Board website, that its authority to operate

is pursuant to federal law, specifically, 27 CFR. The rules pertaining

to inventory taking and other record keeping you may have to provide to

the Liquor Control Board are taken from 27 CFR. In reading the

Washington State law, as provided at the state's Liquor Control Board

website, it seems that their rules pertain only to beverage alcohol,

which is, apparently, what you are using to make your products? There do

not seem to be any references within the Washington state law to

specially denatured alcohol and its use in perfumery (though I might

have missed something while reading through the law). In this case, it

would seem to me, federal law applies.

Bottom line: No matter what avenue you choose to take and whether you

choose to use beverage alcohol or specially denatured alcohol, you must

pay taxes and obtain permits, as you have stated you have to do --

UNLESS you use a pre-approved alcohol such as we sell at Snowdrift Farm.

Trina at http://www.snowdriftfarm.com

[Guest guest]

(note: moderator edited to correct topposting and snip excessive quotes)

>

> Dear Marcia,

>

> Thank you for your reply. I think discussion of the

> subject is the best

> way to understand it. Reading through the law is

> what inspired us to

> begin selling specially denatured alcohol for

> perfumery purposes. I hope

> we are not making anybody paranoid. We simply wish

> to stay within the

> letter of the law.

>

> The references for the ATF regulations that speak to

> specially denatured

> alcohol sales can be found at 27 CFR Parts 19, 20

> and 21. The ATF

> regulations that speak to tax-free sales of alcohol

> can be found at 27

> CFR Part 22. Specific information regarding who can

> and who can not sell

> liquor is available at 27 CFR Part 31:23.You can

> read these laws in full

> at <http://tinyurl.com/loajc>

> http://tinyurl.com/loajc. I highly

> recommend that any person who intends to sell

> perfumes or any type of

> alcohol become familiar with the entire federal law

> as provided at 27

> CFR. The law is to be taken in total, not in small

> parts.

>

> Individual states may collect the taxes for the

> federal government and

> administer their rules. It is my understanding from

> reading the State of

> Washington's Liquor Control Board website, that its

> authority to operate

> is pursuant to federal law, specifically, 27 CFR.

> The rules pertaining

> to inventory taking and other record keeping you may

> have to provide to

> the Liquor Control Board are taken from 27 CFR. In

> reading the

> Washington State law, as provided at the state's

> Liquor Control Board

> website, it seems that their rules pertain only to

> beverage alcohol,

> which is, apparently, what you are using to make

> your products? There do

> not seem to be any references within the Washington

> state law to

> specially denatured alcohol and its use in perfumery

> (though I might

> have missed something while reading through the

> law). In this case, it

> would seem to me, federal law applies.

>

> Bottom line: No matter what avenue you choose to

> take and whether you

> choose to use beverage alcohol or specially

> denatured alcohol, you must

> pay taxes and obtain permits, as you have stated you

> have to do --

> UNLESS you use a pre-approved alcohol such as we

> sell at Snowdrift Farm.

>

>

> Trina at http://www.snowdriftfarm.com

Trina,

I am actually using the denatured alcohol from

Snowdrift Farm and so far I like it for my purposes.

But I read in the files from this website that

denatured alcohol often contains unnatural chemicals.

I'm sure Snowdrift isn't selling alcohol with some of

the harmful chemicals listed but could you please

explain what makes this " denatured " alcohol as opposed

to the undenatured alcohol recommended by Mandy Aftel

as well as the natural perfume group?

[Guest guest]

Thank you *so* much Marcia, Trina and Butch, for tackling this confusing

subject. I'm going to print out all the posts, sort through the websites,

and call both the state reps and an alcohol producer. Trina has the best

handle on it, because she resells, with permits, perfumers alcohol. Marcia

has a great perspective because she uses the alcohol with all state and fed

permits in place. Still, I think there are some ways for the end

user-perfumer to fall through the cracks, especially those who want to use

undenatured alcohol.

As it stands now, some perfumers may NEVER be able to use undenatured

alcohol, depending on where they live. This is just reality. Using the

gorgeous natural essences to create their perfumes is the biggest step in

the right direction to creating natural perfumes, so having to live with

using denatured alcohols has to be a concession.

One of the Guild members is taking on some of the regulatory pitfalls that

are thrown our way, and is going to summarize her findings. All of you

input on this situation is invaluable to her, and if you would be so kind,

I'll ask you if you might assist her if she requests some clarification.

She working in Barbados, so I'm betting she's under leftover UK regs.

Taking the long view, I'm wondering if this might be a good project for us

to take on, regarding " legalizing " the use of undenatured alcohol for all

the perfumers. Let's face it: the high upfront fees for licenses and taxes

due to the drinkable nature of the alcohol can be a stumbling block as much

as state regs that are more Draconian than federal law. Most who produce

herbal tinctures using the undenatured alcohol tend to have big businesses

and can easily absorb the costs. The average start-up natural perfumer has

their pocked drained enough buying samples of exotic aromatics and other

supplies.

This regulation really needs to be addressed for our cottage industry.

This is not a USA-only problem, although only USA-based folks have been

posting. Australia, Canada and the UK are also very harsh about access to

undenatured, or denatured alcohol, for that matter. If anyone on this

international group has any feedback, please let us know.

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

[Guest guest]

Thank you *so* much Marcia, Trina and Butch, for tackling this confusing

subject. I'm going to print out all the posts, sort through the websites,

and call both the state reps and an alcohol producer. Trina has the best

handle on it, because she resells, with permits, perfumers alcohol. Marcia

has a great perspective because she uses the alcohol with all state and fed

permits in place. Still, I think there are some ways for the end

user-perfumer to fall through the cracks, especially those who want to use

undenatured alcohol.

As it stands now, some perfumers may NEVER be able to use undenatured

alcohol, depending on where they live. This is just reality. Using the

gorgeous natural essences to create their perfumes is the biggest step in

the right direction to creating natural perfumes, so having to live with

using denatured alcohols has to be a concession.

One of the Guild members is taking on some of the regulatory pitfalls that

are thrown our way, and is going to summarize her findings. All of you

input on this situation is invaluable to her, and if you would be so kind,

I'll ask you if you might assist her if she requests some clarification.

She working in Barbados, so I'm betting she's under leftover UK regs.

Taking the long view, I'm wondering if this might be a good project for us

to take on, regarding " legalizing " the use of undenatured alcohol for all

the perfumers. Let's face it: the high upfront fees for licenses and taxes

due to the drinkable nature of the alcohol can be a stumbling block as much

as state regs that are more Draconian than federal law. Most who produce

herbal tinctures using the undenatured alcohol tend to have big businesses

and can easily absorb the costs. The average start-up natural perfumer has

their pocked drained enough buying samples of exotic aromatics and other

supplies.

This regulation really needs to be addressed for our cottage industry.

This is not a USA-only problem, although only USA-based folks have been

posting. Australia, Canada and the UK are also very harsh about access to

undenatured, or denatured alcohol, for that matter. If anyone on this

international group has any feedback, please let us know.

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

[Guest guest]

At 12:13 AM 5/28/2006, you wrote:

>

>The references for the ATF regulations that speak to specially denatured

>alcohol sales can be found at 27 CFR Parts 19, 20 and 21. The ATF

>regulations that speak to tax-free sales of alcohol can be found at 27

>CFR Part 22. Specific information regarding who can and who can not sell

>liquor is available at 27 CFR Part 31:23.You can read these laws in full

>at <http://tinyurl.com/loajc> http://tinyurl.com/loajc. I highly

>recommend that any person who intends to sell perfumes or any type of

>alcohol become familiar with the entire federal law as provided at 27

>CFR. The law is to be taken in total, not in small parts.

Hi Trina:

Thank you so much for those refs, but please bear with me, as I'm not very

savvy on plowing through them. I clicked on part 27. Then I scrolled down,

and it jumped from 27.11 to 17.30, so I never saw the 19, 20, 21 and 22.

Where did I go wrong? I did find 27:31, but it was just one paragraph, I

never found it as 27:31:23.

The rest of your post is very meaty with info, I'll tackle it later today.

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

[Guest guest]

At 12:13 AM 5/28/2006, you wrote:

>

>The references for the ATF regulations that speak to specially denatured

>alcohol sales can be found at 27 CFR Parts 19, 20 and 21. The ATF

>regulations that speak to tax-free sales of alcohol can be found at 27

>CFR Part 22. Specific information regarding who can and who can not sell

>liquor is available at 27 CFR Part 31:23.You can read these laws in full

>at <http://tinyurl.com/loajc> http://tinyurl.com/loajc. I highly

>recommend that any person who intends to sell perfumes or any type of

>alcohol become familiar with the entire federal law as provided at 27

>CFR. The law is to be taken in total, not in small parts.

Hi Trina:

Thank you so much for those refs, but please bear with me, as I'm not very

savvy on plowing through them. I clicked on part 27. Then I scrolled down,

and it jumped from 27.11 to 17.30, so I never saw the 19, 20, 21 and 22.

Where did I go wrong? I did find 27:31, but it was just one paragraph, I

never found it as 27:31:23.

The rest of your post is very meaty with info, I'll tackle it later today.

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

[Guest guest]

>The references for the ATF regulations that speak to specially

denatured

>alcohol sales can be found at 27 CFR Parts 19, 20 and 21. The ATF

>regulations that speak to tax-free sales of alcohol can be found at 27

>CFR Part 22. Specific information regarding who can and who can not

sell

>liquor is available at 27 CFR Part 31:23.You can read these laws in

full

>at <http://tinyurl.com/loajc> http://tinyurl.com/loajc. I highly

>recommend that any person who intends to sell perfumes or any type of

>alcohol become familiar with the entire federal law as provided at 27

>CFR. The law is to be taken in total, not in small parts.

>>Anya replied:

Hi Trina:

Thank you so much for those refs, but please bear with me, as I'm not

very

savvy on plowing through them. I clicked on part 27. Then I scrolled

down,

and it jumped from 27.11 to 17.30, so I never saw the 19, 20, 21 and 22.

Where did I go wrong? I did find 27:31, but it was just one paragraph, I

never found it as 27:31:23.

The rest of your post is very meaty with info, I'll tackle it later

today.

Anya <<

Hi Anya,

If you start at http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr

<http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr & tpl=%2Findex.tpl>

& tpl=%2Findex.tpl, use the radio button to choose Title 27. It should

take you to the entire CFR.

Trina at http://www.snowdriftfarm.com <http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/>

[Guest guest]

And...Listerine type mouthwash is 40 proof or so.....but no license

requirement for that particular commodity, either....

And we all know that Listerine is high on the " Alcoholics " list to drink now

a days...

[Guest guest]

..

>

> Bottom line: No matter what avenue you choose to take and whether you

> choose to use beverage alcohol or specially denatured alcohol, you

> must pay taxes and obtain permits, as you have stated you have to do

> UNLESS you use a pre-approved alcohol such as we sell at Snowdrift

> Farm.

>

>

> Trina at http://www.snowdriftfarm.com

>

This is just not correct. Snowdrift farns should remove this

misinformation from their web site. Once someone has purchased Tax Paid

alcohol they are free to use it in manufacturing perfumes for sale.

Of course, this is just my lay opinion.

Trina, are you a lawyer?

[Guest guest]

At 07:56 PM 5/29/2006, you wrote:

>And...Listerine type mouthwash is 40 proof or so.....but no license

>requirement for that particular commodity, either....

>

>And we all know that Listerine is high on the " Alcoholics " list to drink now

>a days...

I remember products such as Listerine being discussed on a toiletries list.

Manufacturers of products such as they have a special license. Money talks ;P

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

[Guest guest]

> This is just not correct. Snowdrift farns should remove this

> misinformation from their web site. Once someone has purchased Tax Paid

> alcohol they are free to use it in manufacturing perfumes for sale.

>

> Of course, this is just my lay opinion.

>

> Trina, are you a lawyer?

>

Hi all, I trust that the following official response from BATF (Bureau of

Alcohol, Tobacco &

Firearms) clears up any confusion:

" If the alcoholic products that you use ( " Vodka or Everclear " ) have

had the Federal excise tax paid, and if the products that you produce are

unfit for beverage use, then you may offer your products to the public

without a permit from us (the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau). If

you buy your alcoholic ingredients through normal retail channels, such as

from a liquor store, you may presume that the Federal tax was paid. The

term " unfit for beverage use " means that a normal person would not consume

the product as an alcoholic beverage. The determination of unfitness for

beverage use is based solely on the composition of the product, not on

extraneous factors such as price, labeling, etc. If you are unsure whether

your products are fit or unfit for beverage use, you may submit a sample and

statement of composition to our laboratory, along with a written request for

a tax status determination. The address is:

Alcohol and Tobacco Laboratory

(ATTN: Nonbeverage Products Section)

6500 Ammendale Road

Ammendale, MD 20705 "

[Guest guest]

> From: " penchantdefleur " <japonica@...>

> Reply-

> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 04:17:49 -0000

>

> Subject: Re: ATF Prohibits Perfumes Made With Drinking

> Alcohol ??

>

>

>> This is just not correct. Snowdrift farns should remove this

>> misinformation from their web site. Once someone has purchased Tax Paid

>> alcohol they are free to use it in manufacturing perfumes for sale.

>>

>> Of course, this is just my lay opinion.

>>

>> Trina, are you a lawyer?

>>

> Hi all, I trust that the following official response from BATF (Bureau of

> Alcohol, Tobacco &

> Firearms) clears up any confusion:

>

> " If the alcoholic products that you use ( " Vodka or Everclear " ) have

> had the Federal excise tax paid, and if the products that you produce are

> unfit for beverage use, then you may offer your products to the public

> without a permit from us (the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau). If

> you buy your alcoholic ingredients through normal retail channels, such as

> from a liquor store, you may presume that the Federal tax was paid. The

> term " unfit for beverage use " means that a normal person would not consume

> the product as an alcoholic beverage. The determination of unfitness for

> beverage use is based solely on the composition of the product, not on

> extraneous factors such as price, labeling, etc. If you are unsure whether

> your products are fit or unfit for beverage use, you may submit a sample and

> statement of composition to our laboratory, along with a written request for

> a tax status determination. The address is:

> Alcohol and Tobacco Laboratory

> (ATTN: Nonbeverage Products Section)

> 6500 Ammendale Road

> Ammendale, MD 20705 "

Thank you so much!!!!

Dorothy

[Guest guest]

> >

> > From: " penchantdefleur " <japonica@...>

> > Reply-

> > Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 04:17:49 -0000

> >

> > Subject: Re: ATF Prohibits Perfumes Made With

Drinking

> > Alcohol ??

> >

> > Hi all, I trust that the following official response from BATF

(Bureau of

> > Alcohol, Tobacco &

> > Firearms) clears up any confusion:

> >

> > " If the alcoholic products that you use ( " Vodka or Everclear " )

have

> > had the Federal excise tax paid, and if the products that you

produce are

> > unfit for beverage use, then you may offer your products to the

public

> > without a permit from us (the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade

Bureau). If

> > you buy your alcoholic ingredients through normal retail

channels, such as

> > from a liquor store, you may presume that the Federal tax was

paid. The

> > term " unfit for beverage use " means that a normal person would

not consume

> > the product as an alcoholic beverage. The determination of

unfitness for

> > beverage use is based solely on the composition of the product,

not on

> > extraneous factors such as price, labeling, etc. If you are

unsure whether

> > your products are fit or unfit for beverage use, you may submit

a sample and

> > statement of composition to our laboratory, along with a written

request for

> > a tax status determination. The address is:

> > Alcohol and Tobacco Laboratory

> > (ATTN: Nonbeverage Products Section)

> > 6500 Ammendale Road

> > Ammendale, MD 20705 "

>

> Thank you so much!!!!

> Dorothy

>

Dear Friends,

No, I am not an attorney. Does that really matter? Are any of you

lawyers? Are you saying only lawyers can understand and abide by the

law?

All sniping aside, I fail to understand your point. Quoting you:

" The term " unfit for beverage use " means that a normal person would

not consume the product as an alcoholic beverage. "

Are you saying that the alcohol you purchase at the liquor store and

use to make your perfumes is NOT suitable for consumption? Why is it

sold at a liquor store?

Please read the law in its entirety and make your decisions however

you please.

Trina at Snowdrift Farm

[Guest guest]

At 11:41 AM 5/31/2006, you wrote:

> " Campen " <dcampen@> wrote:

> > >> This is just not correct. Snowdrift farns should remove this

> > >> misinformation from their web site. Once someone has purchased

>Tax Paid alcohol they are free to use it in manufacturing perfumes for

>sale.

> > >> Of course, this is just my lay opinion.

> > >>

> > >> Trina, are you a lawyer?

I want to remind everyone on this group that we can debate but we *cannot*

make it personal. We're known for our friendly banter, and I want it kept

that way.

>

>

> > > From: " penchantdefleur " <japonica@...>

> > > Reply-

> > > Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 04:17:49 -0000

> > >

> > > Subject: Re: ATF Prohibits Perfumes Made With

>Drinking

> > > Alcohol ??

> > >

>

> > > Hi all, I trust that the following official response from BATF

>(Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms) clears up any confusion:

> > >

> > > " If the alcoholic products that you use ( " Vodka or Everclear " )

>have

> > > had the Federal excise tax paid, and if the products that you

>produce are

> > > unfit for beverage use, then you may offer your products to the

>public

> > > without a permit from us (the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade

>Bureau).

I'm reading this and see a big gap. They do not regard adding aromatics as

making it " unfit for beverage use " . This is also an issue with herbal

tinctures.

>Dear Friends,

>

>No, I am not an attorney. Does that really matter? Are any of you

>lawyers? Are you saying only lawyers can understand and abide by the

>law?

>

>All sniping aside, I fail to understand your point. Quoting you:

>

> " The term " unfit for beverage use " means that a normal person would

>not consume the product as an alcoholic beverage. "

>

>Are you saying that the alcohol you purchase at the liquor store and

>use to make your perfumes is NOT suitable for consumption? Why is it

>sold at a liquor store?

Trina backs up my previous challenge to the BATF agent's letter. It is a

big issue, and parts of it are still very unclear to me, and it could have

negative legal consequences for the perfumer who doesn't get it all straight.

>Please read the law in its entirety and make your decisions however

>you please.

I know that the onus is on the end user/producer (us). I know that when I

order alcohol I agree to a disclaimer that I know and abide by my state

laws. I cannot tell you the confusion my lawyer had talking with BATF! This

was about two years ago, when I paired with an herbal tincture producer in

Northern Florida because she was concerned about a perceived 153-proof

limit in the state statutes.

I just reread a lengthy post by Trina few days ago on all this -- I suggest

y'all go back and read it. I know I said at the time I was going to print

all this out and study it, and I didn't have time yet. All I know is that

Trina did her homework and decided to sell a product in such a manner that

the purchaser would be protected.

Marcia -- what is your take on all this?

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

[Guest guest]

At 11:41 AM 5/31/2006, you wrote:

> " Campen " <dcampen@> wrote:

> > >> This is just not correct. Snowdrift farns should remove this

> > >> misinformation from their web site. Once someone has purchased

>Tax Paid alcohol they are free to use it in manufacturing perfumes for

>sale.

> > >> Of course, this is just my lay opinion.

> > >>

> > >> Trina, are you a lawyer?

I want to remind everyone on this group that we can debate but we *cannot*

make it personal. We're known for our friendly banter, and I want it kept

that way.

>

>

> > > From: " penchantdefleur " <japonica@...>

> > > Reply-

> > > Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 04:17:49 -0000

> > >

> > > Subject: Re: ATF Prohibits Perfumes Made With

>Drinking

> > > Alcohol ??

> > >

>

> > > Hi all, I trust that the following official response from BATF

>(Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms) clears up any confusion:

> > >

> > > " If the alcoholic products that you use ( " Vodka or Everclear " )

>have

> > > had the Federal excise tax paid, and if the products that you

>produce are

> > > unfit for beverage use, then you may offer your products to the

>public

> > > without a permit from us (the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade

>Bureau).

I'm reading this and see a big gap. They do not regard adding aromatics as

making it " unfit for beverage use " . This is also an issue with herbal

tinctures.

>Dear Friends,

>

>No, I am not an attorney. Does that really matter? Are any of you

>lawyers? Are you saying only lawyers can understand and abide by the

>law?

>

>All sniping aside, I fail to understand your point. Quoting you:

>

> " The term " unfit for beverage use " means that a normal person would

>not consume the product as an alcoholic beverage. "

>

>Are you saying that the alcohol you purchase at the liquor store and

>use to make your perfumes is NOT suitable for consumption? Why is it

>sold at a liquor store?

Trina backs up my previous challenge to the BATF agent's letter. It is a

big issue, and parts of it are still very unclear to me, and it could have

negative legal consequences for the perfumer who doesn't get it all straight.

>Please read the law in its entirety and make your decisions however

>you please.

I know that the onus is on the end user/producer (us). I know that when I

order alcohol I agree to a disclaimer that I know and abide by my state

laws. I cannot tell you the confusion my lawyer had talking with BATF! This

was about two years ago, when I paired with an herbal tincture producer in

Northern Florida because she was concerned about a perceived 153-proof

limit in the state statutes.

I just reread a lengthy post by Trina few days ago on all this -- I suggest

y'all go back and read it. I know I said at the time I was going to print

all this out and study it, and I didn't have time yet. All I know is that

Trina did her homework and decided to sell a product in such a manner that

the purchaser would be protected.

Marcia -- what is your take on all this?

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

[Guest guest]

Please read the law in its entirety and make your

> decisions however

> you please.

>

Hi all

I am not a lawyer either, but I do have some

background reading and interpreting legal documents,

and I had a hard time understanding Title 27 which I

read in its entirety (ack!). It does say:

§ 1.62 Use of distilled spirits or wine for

experimental purposes and in manufacture of

nonbeverage products.

The use of distilled spirits or wine for experimental

purposes and in the manufacture of (a) medicinal,

pharmaceutical, or antiseptic products, including

prescriptions compounded by retail druggists; (

toilet preparations; © flavoring extracts, syrups,

or food products; or (d) scientific, chemical,

mechanical, or industrial products, provided such

products are unfit for beverage use, is regarded as

“industrial,” and will be excluded from any

application of the term “nonindustrial use.”

-----------------------------------------------------

Not entirely clear, but it suggests to me that

perfume, as a toilet preparation, would not be subject

to any requirements (permits or the like) that a

drinkable form (i.e. " nonindustrial use " ) of alcohol

would be. I sure would be interested if the folks who

claim you need a permit to sell perfume with

undenatured alcohol could point me to the exact part

of the law that says so.

In the meantime, the best bet is to go with the

official opinion from the BATF on this issue, which

another member posted (thanks!)which said that if your

product you produce with non-denatured alcohol is

unfit for drinking (can't imagine any perfumes you'd

want to drink)then you can sell it and you don't need

a permit.

-Patty

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

At 11:41 AM 5/31/2006, you wrote:

> " Campen " <dcampen@> wrote:

> > >> This is just not correct. Snowdrift farns should remove this

> > >> misinformation from their web site. Once someone has purchased

>Tax Paid alcohol they are free to use it in manufacturing perfumes for

>sale.

> > >> Of course, this is just my lay opinion.

> > >>

> > >> Trina, are you a lawyer?

I want to remind everyone on this group that we can debate but we *cannot*

make it personal. We're known for our friendly banter, and I want it kept

that way.

> > > Hi all, I trust that the following official response from BATF

>(Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms) clears up any confusion:

> > >

> > > " If the alcoholic products that you use ( " Vodka or Everclear " )

>have

> > > had the Federal excise tax paid, and if the products that you

>produce are

> > > unfit for beverage use, then you may offer your products to the

>public

> > > without a permit from us (the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade

>Bureau).

I'm reading this and see a big gap. They do not regard adding aromatics as

making it " unfit for beverage use " . This is also an issue with herbal

tinctures.

>Dear Friends,

>

>No, I am not an attorney. Does that really matter? Are any of you

>lawyers? Are you saying only lawyers can understand and abide by the

>law?

>

>All sniping aside, I fail to understand your point. Quoting you:

>

> " The term " unfit for beverage use " means that a normal person would

>not consume the product as an alcoholic beverage. "

>

>Are you saying that the alcohol you purchase at the liquor store and

>use to make your perfumes is NOT suitable for consumption? Why is it

>sold at a liquor store?

Trina backs up my previous challenge to the BATF agent's letter. It is a

big issue, and parts of it are still very unclear to me, and it could have

negative legal consequences for the perfumer who doesn't get it all straight.

>Please read the law in its entirety and make your decisions however

>you please.

I know that the onus is on the end user/producer (us). I know that when I

order alcohol I agree to a disclaimer that I know and abide by my state

laws. I cannot tell you the confusion my lawyer had talking with BATF! This

was about two years ago, when I paired with an herbal tincture producer in

Northern Florida because she was concerned about a perceived 153-proof

limit in the state statutes.

I just reread a lengthy post by Trina few days ago on all this -- I suggest

y'all go back and read it. I know I said at the time I was going to print

all this out and study it, and I didn't have time yet. All I know is that

Trina did her homework and decided to sell a product in such a manner that

the purchaser would be protected.

Marcia -- what is your take on all this?

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group