Re: MCS Different Triggers

[Guest guest]

> This is NOT a SLAM on Shoemaker but a comment that the statement

about mold is NOT set in concrete/stone/metal etc.

> No one CAUSE and no one CURE....

> I repeat myelf....why hasn't he teamed up wiht (Marin Pall)

Ziem....and see her pts and how they are not ALL mold related.

> Mold is NOT the prevsailing trigger and not prevelant as everyone

on here seems to think it is!

> We created this years ago for people to read the FIRST HAND

accounts not watered down tales/stories etc. -Angel!!

Angel. When you read my words, you are seeing a " FIRST HAND

account " from the origin of " Chronic Fatigue Syndrome " , an epidemic

of concurrent symptomology which has become very well known in the

last twenty years.

Our stories of individually determining that mycotoxins are a

mediating factor in our illnesses are told in our own words, and

have not been retold or recycled as " watered down tales/stories etc " .

All the years of people joining this list and expressing their MCS

onsets in association with water damaged buildings has only inspired

you to reject " the mycotoxin connection " instead of possibly viewing

this as a possible means to ameliorating MCS severity in those

victims who possess the HLA DR for metabolic deficiency in clearance

of ionophore toxins.

Why would you turn away from a clue that has been repeated so many

times by people telling their stories in this group?

We are looking for ANSWERS to this connection - not denials that it

exists!

Mold is exactly as prevalent as we perceive it is.

I wrote a letter of my experience to Grace Ziem and told it in full

detail to Dr Pall - and they were not interested in my story of the

mycotoxin connection to the initiation of the CFS epidemic in

Incline Village, nor in my strategy of avoidance.

I assume that this is why they are not currently collaborating with

Dr Shoemaker.

Please refrain from misrepresenting Dr Shoemakers concepts.

NOWHERE does he state that there is one cause and one cure for MCS,

or anything else for that matter.

Once the infection/toxic exposure overwhelms and depletes the

capacity of the hypothalamus to compensate for toxic exposure, it is

the genetic susceptibility to mycotoxins that is " unveiled " . This

means that even though the initial chemical onslaught has been

removed, that the proinflammatory cytokines are STILL kept

upregulated by the unmasked response to common and prevalent mold

toxins.

Dr. Shoemaker says that this over-response is " mediated " by

biotoxins - and although they can be initiated by mycotoxins alone,

this response can also be triggered by a number of

different " cytokine events " . This is far from claiming that " mold

is the cause of everything " . I tried to make this clear in the

original post regarding Dr Shoemakers views on MCS and my reference

to " different triggers " :

------------------------------------------------------------

Many SBS patients also begin to notice that they become more

sensitive to fumes, smells and chemicals. With repeated exposures,

the sensitivity for some becomes more pronounced. In the full-blown

sensitive patient, someone with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity

(MCS), just a few seconds of smelling fumes is overwhelming. Mere

seconds of " off-gassing " coming from computers and phones, new

paint, new carpet, freshly printed reading material, or even just a

ream of copy paper , can make patients sick for weeks. Our

treatment protocols for " multiple Chemical Sensitivity " may bring

order to this difficult-to-confirm diagnosis if the illnesss is

caught quickly after it appears. To date, having seen over 500 MCS

patients, I have yet to find one who wasn't made ill early in the

illness by exposure to water-damaged buildings.

I continue to look for sources of the origin of MCS other than mold

exposure - so far without success "

Page 53 " Why the Courthouse was Dangerous "

Mold Warriors.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you have to look carefully at what Dr Shoemaker is saying here.

MCSers who had a triggering chemical exposure recoil, and get angry

at this paragraph because their perception is that this claims " Mold

is the Cause of Everything " - which is obviously not the case.

If you read the ENTIRE book, what Dr Shoemaker says that the HLA

susceptibility to molds is " unveiled " by a cytokine storm from

various infections and toxic exposures.

So different " Triggers " unleashes the inflammatory " overkill " and

the biotoxins - which include mycotoxins then become the chronic

mediators of the illness.

Perhaps the chemically sensitized patient managed to successfully

avoid the exposure that initially unleashed the illness, but if he

has the genetic susceptibility for cytokine storm from mycotoxins,

the immune system is kept upregulated by a completely different,

very prevalent and ubiquitous-difficult-to-avoid toxin.

Read Chapt. 24 " 21st Century Medicine:

" It's the Inflammation, Stupid " for an explanation of this.

-

[Guest guest]

" victims who possess the HLA DR for metabolic deficiency in clearance

of ionophore toxins. "

,

What are inophore toxins, and is the HLA DR you're describing one of

the ones in the book (the " mold-susceptible genotype, " the " Lyme-

susceptible genotype, " or the " dreaded genotype " ), or another one?

And do you have any more information on this metabolic deficiency,

like how it might show up on Amy Yasko's tests, or on the Genovations

genetic detox profile? Or if increasing glutathione might help, or

not?

(I loaned my copy of Mold Warriors to someone, gotta get it back...)

Thanks!

>

> > This is NOT a SLAM on Shoemaker but a comment that the statement

> about mold is NOT set in concrete/stone/metal etc.

> > No one CAUSE and no one CURE....

> > I repeat myelf....why hasn't he teamed up wiht (Marin Pall)

> Ziem....and see her pts and how they are not ALL mold related.

> > Mold is NOT the prevsailing trigger and not prevelant as everyone

> on here seems to think it is!

> > We created this years ago for people to read the FIRST HAND

> accounts not watered down tales/stories etc. -Angel!!

>

>

> Angel. When you read my words, you are seeing a " FIRST HAND

> account " from the origin of " Chronic Fatigue Syndrome " , an epidemic

> of concurrent symptomology which has become very well known in the

> last twenty years.

> Our stories of individually determining that mycotoxins are a

> mediating factor in our illnesses are told in our own words, and

> have not been retold or recycled as " watered down tales/stories

etc " .

>

> All the years of people joining this list and expressing their MCS

> onsets in association with water damaged buildings has only

inspired

> you to reject " the mycotoxin connection " instead of possibly

viewing

> this as a possible means to ameliorating MCS severity in those

> victims who possess the HLA DR for metabolic deficiency in

clearance

> of ionophore toxins.

> Why would you turn away from a clue that has been repeated so many

> times by people telling their stories in this group?

> We are looking for ANSWERS to this connection - not denials that

it

> exists!

> Mold is exactly as prevalent as we perceive it is.

>

> I wrote a letter of my experience to Grace Ziem and told it in

full

> detail to Dr Pall - and they were not interested in my story of

the

> mycotoxin connection to the initiation of the CFS epidemic in

> Incline Village, nor in my strategy of avoidance.

> I assume that this is why they are not currently collaborating with

> Dr Shoemaker.

>

> Please refrain from misrepresenting Dr Shoemakers concepts.

> NOWHERE does he state that there is one cause and one cure for MCS,

> or anything else for that matter.

> Once the infection/toxic exposure overwhelms and depletes the

> capacity of the hypothalamus to compensate for toxic exposure, it

is

> the genetic susceptibility to mycotoxins that is " unveiled " . This

> means that even though the initial chemical onslaught has been

> removed, that the proinflammatory cytokines are STILL kept

> upregulated by the unmasked response to common and prevalent mold

> toxins.

> Dr. Shoemaker says that this over-response is " mediated " by

> biotoxins - and although they can be initiated by mycotoxins alone,

> this response can also be triggered by a number of

> different " cytokine events " . This is far from claiming that " mold

> is the cause of everything " . I tried to make this clear in the

> original post regarding Dr Shoemakers views on MCS and my reference

> to " different triggers " :

> ------------------------------------------------------------

> Many SBS patients also begin to notice that they become more

> sensitive to fumes, smells and chemicals. With repeated exposures,

> the sensitivity for some becomes more pronounced. In the full-blown

> sensitive patient, someone with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity

> (MCS), just a few seconds of smelling fumes is overwhelming. Mere

> seconds of " off-gassing " coming from computers and phones, new

> paint, new carpet, freshly printed reading material, or even just a

> ream of copy paper , can make patients sick for weeks. Our

> treatment protocols for " multiple Chemical Sensitivity " may bring

> order to this difficult-to-confirm diagnosis if the illnesss is

> caught quickly after it appears. To date, having seen over 500 MCS

> patients, I have yet to find one who wasn't made ill early in the

> illness by exposure to water-damaged buildings.

> I continue to look for sources of the origin of MCS other than mold

> exposure - so far without success "

> Page 53 " Why the Courthouse was Dangerous "

> Mold Warriors.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------

> Now you have to look carefully at what Dr Shoemaker is saying

here.

> MCSers who had a triggering chemical exposure recoil, and get angry

> at this paragraph because their perception is that this claims " Mold

> is the Cause of Everything " - which is obviously not the case.

> If you read the ENTIRE book, what Dr Shoemaker says that the HLA

> susceptibility to molds is " unveiled " by a cytokine storm from

> various infections and toxic exposures.

> So different " Triggers " unleashes the inflammatory " overkill " and

> the biotoxins - which include mycotoxins then become the chronic

> mediators of the illness.

> Perhaps the chemically sensitized patient managed to successfully

> avoid the exposure that initially unleashed the illness, but if he

> has the genetic susceptibility for cytokine storm from mycotoxins,

> the immune system is kept upregulated by a completely different,

> very prevalent and ubiquitous-difficult-to-avoid toxin.

> Read Chapt. 24 " 21st Century Medicine:

> " It's the Inflammation, Stupid " for an explanation of this.

> -

>

[Guest guest]

" shakerz25 " wrote:

> ,

What are inophore toxins, and is the HLA DR you're describing one

of the ones in the book (the " mold-susceptible genotype, " the " Lyme-

susceptible genotype, " or the " dreaded genotype " ), or another one?

And do you have any more information on this metabolic deficiency,

like how it might show up on Amy Yasko's tests, or on the

Genovations genetic detox profile? Or if increasing glutathione

might help, or not?

> (I loaned my copy of Mold Warriors to someone, gotta get it

back...)

> Thanks!

I'm not familiar with them, so I don't know if it shows up in

Genovations or Yasko's tests.

I suppose increasing glutathione would help, I just haven't seen it

happen yet. It would be great if they find a way to keep

glutathione from breaking down - so it might be more effective.

I'm looking forward to the day when you can just " take something "

and make this problem go away.

As far as I can make out, once you've been " triggered " into a

chronic inflammatory response by infection or various toxin

exposures - whether or not you become a " moldie " is determined by

your HLA DR genetic susceptibility. It seems that if you HAVE the

double dreaded mold gene - regardless of what initiated your

illness - you are now one of us! And the " estimated one in five

large buildings " determined by the Cornell study now have the

potential to prevent you from damping down that chronic upregulation.

So you never get a chance to " get clear " and recover.

Certainly chemicals kick peoples butts, but when someone gets away

from that particular exposure - and the horrific immunological

attack just keeps going on and on despite the best efforts to stay

away from those offending chemicals - why not consider the

possibility that an unsuspected, but very prevalent toxin is what is

keeping the response going?

I took a wild leap at the chance that these mold toxins were what

was keeping me chronically ill - and I'm glad I did.

I've had quite a few adventures that were only made possible by

mold avoidance.

Not a cure, but hiking the Evolution Wilderness is sure a lot more

fun than laying in bed, hoping to die.

For years, all I knew was that mold avoidance was a critical factor

in keeping me going. I've been waiting a long time to hear a doctor

tell me WHY it was working instead of insisting that " it couldn't

possibly be helping - so any improvement you feel must be

psychological " .

-

Ionophores - from DM and MW:

__________________________________________________________________

Second, it soon became evident that although each of the toxins

involved in the various neurotoxin-mediated illnesses is

manufactured by a different organims, the symptoms they cause are

remarkably similar.

Looking more closely at the organic chemistry involved, I soon

discovered that a particular part of the structure of the toxin-

attack was always the same, regardless of the particular poison

involved. In every case, the toxin molecules worked by configuring

themselves into three-dimensional rings of atoms that shared

negatively charged atoms.

It didn't matter if the negative charge was shared by oxygen

(dinoflagellates and fungi) nitrogen (blue-green algae, or possibly

sulfur (spirochetes)

In scientific terms, this toxin structure is known as a " molecular

dipole " or " ion ring " .

Page 256 Desperation Medicine

_______________________________________________________________

Toxins have molecular structures that consist of an inner water-

loving (hydophilic) system surrounded by a fat-loving (hydrophilic)

group of molecules. Biotoxins are a lot like the emulsions we use in

cooking. With a mixture of active agents divided by their affinity

for water.

Curiously, the size of the toxin's innermost part is identical to

the size of a water molecule. What at extraordinary findinging in

evolution! It seems as though the structure of the toxins made by

fungi, blue-greem algae, bacteria , dinoflagellates,

apicocomplexans, spirochetes and recluse spiders ( and what else?)

all evolved based on the sttucuture of water, I haven't seen the

same stuructural similarity in toxins made by plants.

This dangerous. water-like structure alllowse the molecules to

diffuse easily across cell membranes, causing damage. It's this

property of toxins that makes them part of a larger group of

compounds called ionophores. Not all ionophores are toxins, buto

date, the biotoxins in my work have all been ionophores.

Ionophores can move quickly across membranes and go from cell to

cell, distributing themselves through the body. Amazingly, they do

not need blood to travel , but can jump from one cell to the next.

So a biotoxin in the nasal passages can end up in your skin, heart

liver lungs, muscles and brain.

Page 70 Mold Warriors

[Guest guest]

thank you , yes like me and others, you have found that

advoidence can help so much but is not a cure. I too, refuse to lie

in bed and suffer, I did that for the most part of 10-11 years of my

exposure and several years after I found out and got out. I was

raised on a farm and was always outside, working or fishing, or

planting garden and flowers. I hated being ill and went from never

being sick to being sick 3-4 days at a time, maybe haveing a better

day than it would start again, than slowly becomeing constant and

cronic right along with the mold in my first home. there is not one

single dought in my mind of what toxic molds can do. and like you, I

try to be patient and wait for a cure. needless to say, we all have

anger because of the lack of knowledge out there, but all we can do

is try how ever we are able, to get this

reconized.

> > ,

> What are inophore toxins, and is the HLA DR you're describing one

> of the ones in the book (the " mold-susceptible genotype, " the " Lyme-

> susceptible genotype, " or the " dreaded genotype " ), or another

one?

> And do you have any more information on this metabolic

deficiency,

> like how it might show up on Amy Yasko's tests, or on the

> Genovations genetic detox profile? Or if increasing glutathione

> might help, or not?

> > (I loaned my copy of Mold Warriors to someone, gotta get it

> back...)

> > Thanks!

>

> I'm not familiar with them, so I don't know if it shows up in

> Genovations or Yasko's tests.

> I suppose increasing glutathione would help, I just haven't seen

it

> happen yet. It would be great if they find a way to keep

> glutathione from breaking down - so it might be more effective.

> I'm looking forward to the day when you can just " take something "

> and make this problem go away.

>

> As far as I can make out, once you've been " triggered " into a

> chronic inflammatory response by infection or various toxin

> exposures - whether or not you become a " moldie " is determined by

> your HLA DR genetic susceptibility. It seems that if you HAVE the

> double dreaded mold gene - regardless of what initiated your

> illness - you are now one of us! And the " estimated one in five

> large buildings " determined by the Cornell study now have the

> potential to prevent you from damping down that chronic

upregulation.

> So you never get a chance to " get clear " and recover.

> Certainly chemicals kick peoples butts, but when someone gets away

> from that particular exposure - and the horrific immunological

> attack just keeps going on and on despite the best efforts to stay

> away from those offending chemicals - why not consider the

> possibility that an unsuspected, but very prevalent toxin is what

is

> keeping the response going?

> I took a wild leap at the chance that these mold toxins were what

> was keeping me chronically ill - and I'm glad I did.

> I've had quite a few adventures that were only made possible by

> mold avoidance.

> Not a cure, but hiking the Evolution Wilderness is sure a lot more

> fun than laying in bed, hoping to die.

> For years, all I knew was that mold avoidance was a critical

factor

> in keeping me going. I've been waiting a long time to hear a doctor

> tell me WHY it was working instead of insisting that " it couldn't

> possibly be helping - so any improvement you feel must be

> psychological " .

> -

>

> Ionophores - from DM and MW:

> __________________________________________________________________

>

> Second, it soon became evident that although each of the toxins

> involved in the various neurotoxin-mediated illnesses is

> manufactured by a different organims, the symptoms they cause are

> remarkably similar.

>

> Looking more closely at the organic chemistry involved, I soon

> discovered that a particular part of the structure of the toxin-

> attack was always the same, regardless of the particular poison

> involved. In every case, the toxin molecules worked by configuring

> themselves into three-dimensional rings of atoms that shared

> negatively charged atoms.

>

> It didn't matter if the negative charge was shared by oxygen

> (dinoflagellates and fungi) nitrogen (blue-green algae, or possibly

> sulfur (spirochetes)

>

> In scientific terms, this toxin structure is known as a " molecular

> dipole " or " ion ring " .

>

> Page 256 Desperation Medicine

> _______________________________________________________________

>

>

> Toxins have molecular structures that consist of an inner water-

> loving (hydophilic) system surrounded by a fat-loving (hydrophilic)

> group of molecules. Biotoxins are a lot like the emulsions we use

in

> cooking. With a mixture of active agents divided by their affinity

> for water.

>

> Curiously, the size of the toxin's innermost part is identical to

> the size of a water molecule. What at extraordinary findinging in

> evolution! It seems as though the structure of the toxins made by

> fungi, blue-greem algae, bacteria , dinoflagellates,

> apicocomplexans, spirochetes and recluse spiders ( and what else?)

> all evolved based on the sttucuture of water, I haven't seen the

> same stuructural similarity in toxins made by plants.

>

> This dangerous. water-like structure alllowse the molecules to

> diffuse easily across cell membranes, causing damage. It's this

> property of toxins that makes them part of a larger group of

> compounds called ionophores. Not all ionophores are toxins, buto

> date, the biotoxins in my work have all been ionophores.

>

> Ionophores can move quickly across membranes and go from cell to

> cell, distributing themselves through the body. Amazingly, they do

> not need blood to travel , but can jump from one cell to the next.

> So a biotoxin in the nasal passages can end up in your skin, heart

> liver lungs, muscles and brain.

>

> Page 70 Mold Warriors

>