Let's talk about hydrodistilled oils

May 18, 2006

Historically, tender flowers such as jasmine, tuberose, lotus and osmanthus

were solvent-extracted for their aromatics. They supposedly didn't hold up

under distillation, the scent being corrupted or otherwise unusable. If

Butch as the time, he can chime in on the differences in distillation

processes, but that info is also in our Files section.

In the past few years, I've seen more and more offerings of hydrodistilled

oils of these flowers. I've obtained a few samples. They smell wonderful. I

have not seen any GC/MSs on them.

I just received several very nice samples and I'm going to start to play

with them. I have some questions, more in the practical realm:

1. Does the higher cost justify them? Eg, one kg of jasmine grandi absolute

is $1200, one kb of the hydrodistilled oil is $6000. Hydrodistilled

tuberose is $15000/kg. Yow.

2. The odor intensity does not seem approx. six times that of the absolute,

which, to the practical mind, would be one justification for the higher

price. At first sniff, undiluted, the odor quality does not seem that much

superior to the absolutes. I'll play later today, I got them late

yesterday, and I'm out of the office for much of today.

3. Is this product aimed at those who wish to avoid solvents? That may be

the main justification, in my mind. For those with the wish to avoid

solvents, this is the way to go, no matter what the cost. I am of the

belief that solvents dissipate.

4. Has anyone blended with them and can give feedback as to any superior

qualities it has upon blending that justifies the higher cost?

>

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

May 18, 2006

(Sheri, edited to correct topposting)

Anya <mccoy@...> wrote:

Historically, tender flowers such as jasmine, tuberose, lotus and osmanthus

were solvent-extracted for their aromatics. They supposedly didn't hold up under

distillation, the scent being corrupted or otherwise unusable. If Butch as the

time, he can chime in on the differences in distillation processes, but that

info is also in our Files section.

In the past few years, I've seen more and more offerings of hydrodistilled

oils of these flowers. I've obtained a few samples. They smell wonderful. I

have not seen any GC/MSs on them.

Hi Anya,

In response to the GC/MS on the hydrodistills. I am not so sure they can be

run on the instruments since the water content tends to affect the columns

(depending on what columns are being used).

May 19, 2006

> Historically, tender flowers such as jasmine, tuberose, lotus and

> osmanthus

> were solvent-extracted for their aromatics. They supposedly didn't

> hold up

> under distillation, the scent being corrupted or otherwise unusable.

>

> 3. Is this product aimed at those who wish to avoid solvents? That

> may be

> the main justification, in my mind. For those with the wish to avoid

> solvents, this is the way to go, no matter what the cost. I am of the

> belief that solvents dissipate.

Hi Anya,

My understanding is that the hydrodistilled flower oils are

hydrodistilled from the floral concrete not the flowers themselves.

--- So, the flowers still do not hold up under distillation. --- The

concrete is extracted from the flowers using hexane or similar

solvent. The second step is to extract the 'essential oil' by

hydrodistillation of the concrete.

And, by the way, this is also how some of the floral CO2 extracts are

being made (ie. Rose and Jasmine and Tuberose). But in this case the

'essential oil' is extracted from the concrete using CO2 instead of

distillation. (The term 'essential oil' is used very loosely here. Hi

!)

A couple of points about the process: Both the hydrodistillation and

CO2 extraction of the concretes avoids the use of alcohol completely,

and so avoids any alcohol residue in the final product (which can

typically be 2-3%, but can also vary depending on who is doing the

extraction). This is a big plus for some people belonging to cultures

or religions that do not allow alcohol. But the distillation and CO2

extraction will also remove any residues from the making of the

concrete. So, both processes should completely remove any solvent or

contaminent that happened to be in the solvent (unfortunately, hexane

or similar solvents can contain contaminents).

The small percentage of alcohol in floral absolutes probably does not

pose a problem for alcohol perfumery but they can cause separation to

occur in perfumes that use a fixed oil base.

As I mentioned CO2 and hydrodistilled floral concretes above, I

should also say that the resulting 'oil' is very different using the

2 methods. The distillation removes all the wax, pigments and heavy

constituents, while the CO2 extraction does not. Also the CO2

extracts will likely be semi-solid or at least not a free flowing oil.

I do not have experience with the hydrodiffused concretes and so will

not comment on your other questions...

The simplest explanation of hydrodistillation is: it is similar to

steam distillation except the plant material is placed in the water

versus being placed above the water. In both cases the essential oils

constituents are carried off the plant material as the material is

heated over time.

Will

Eden Botanicals

May 19, 2006

This is something that I have been interested in as

well. I recently purchased some Hydrodiffused Vetiver.

(same thing I am supposing)....?

Like the CO2's. It has a lighter more airy essence

than the traditionally processed oil.

I have also tried some of the CO2, Jasmines and Rose.

These new oils/absolutes, etc...

Are nice, but different. To use them, new perfumes

would have to be created around them. I have not found

them to be a substitute in an already existing

formula.

The Vetiver (hydro) that I purchased would have to be

used elsewhere as well, and I am not sure that I even

like it yet.

It probably sounds a bit loopy, but the Vetiver that I

like has a nice warm vintage aroma. It reminds me of

my grandmothers attic, filled with old boxes of really

cool shoes from the 40's, and faded lace curtains on

the windows.

I think for someone looking to create clean, crisp

perfumes, the new oils are just the thing, and I will

probably take that route with them later on.

But, an interested in whatever others have to say on

the subject.

Peace, Zz...........

>

Peace Angel Farm, Orgaincs

http://www.peaceangelfarm.com

Zz's Petals, Natural Perfumery....

http://www.zzspetals.com

__________________________________________________

May 19, 2006

This is something that I have been interested in as

well. I recently purchased some Hydrodiffused Vetiver.

(same thing I am supposing)....?

Like the CO2's. It has a lighter more airy essence

than the traditionally processed oil.

I have also tried some of the CO2, Jasmines and Rose.

These new oils/absolutes, etc...

Are nice, but different. To use them, new perfumes

would have to be created around them. I have not found

them to be a substitute in an already existing

formula.

The Vetiver (hydro) that I purchased would have to be

used elsewhere as well, and I am not sure that I even

like it yet.

It probably sounds a bit loopy, but the Vetiver that I

like has a nice warm vintage aroma. It reminds me of

my grandmothers attic, filled with old boxes of really

cool shoes from the 40's, and faded lace curtains on

the windows.

I think for someone looking to create clean, crisp

perfumes, the new oils are just the thing, and I will

probably take that route with them later on.

But, an interested in whatever others have to say on

the subject.

Peace, Zz...........

>

Peace Angel Farm, Orgaincs

http://www.peaceangelfarm.com

Zz's Petals, Natural Perfumery....

http://www.zzspetals.com

__________________________________________________

May 19, 2006

> This is something that I have been interested in as

> well. I recently purchased some Hydrodiffused Vetiver.

> (same thing I am supposing)....?

> Like the CO2's. It has a lighter more airy essence

> than the traditionally processed oil.

> I have also tried some of the CO2, Jasmines and Rose.

> These new oils/absolutes, etc...

> Are nice, but different. To use them, new perfumes

> would have to be created around them. I have not found

> them to be a substitute in an already existing

> formula.

> Peace, Zz...........

Hi Zz,

Actually, the Vetiver hydrodiffused is a different process than the

hydrodiffused floral concretes. Here's the difference:

Hydrodistillation (hydrodiffusion) is a common (and old, accepted)

method of distilling plant materials to obtain essential oils.

Vetiver roots are commonly distilled this way (as are many other

plants). It is similar to steam distillation, but typically takes a

little more time and energy. The new way to distill some of the

flowers, which are too tender to be distilled themselves, is to first

extract the concrete from the flowers using solvents and then

hydrodistill the concrete.

As for vetiver, the essential oil varies widely depending on where it

is grown, whether it is steam distilled or hydrodistilled and whether

it was collected wild and distilled in India using the traditional

style of hydrodistillation. This type of Indian vetiver is the most

different than the others and I am wondering if that is the one that

you have?

Yes, I think you are right - that the new hydrodistilled and CO2

extracted concretes are very different and cannot just be substituted

for the corresponding absolute. They will create something different,

and your observation that you would create new perfumes around them

is quite valid...

Happy blending!

Will

Eden Botanicals

May 19, 2006

> This is something that I have been interested in as

> well. I recently purchased some Hydrodiffused Vetiver.

> (same thing I am supposing)....?

> Like the CO2's. It has a lighter more airy essence

> than the traditionally processed oil.

> I have also tried some of the CO2, Jasmines and Rose.

> These new oils/absolutes, etc...

> Are nice, but different. To use them, new perfumes

> would have to be created around them. I have not found

> them to be a substitute in an already existing

> formula.

> Peace, Zz...........

Hi Zz,

Actually, the Vetiver hydrodiffused is a different process than the

hydrodiffused floral concretes. Here's the difference:

Hydrodistillation (hydrodiffusion) is a common (and old, accepted)

method of distilling plant materials to obtain essential oils.

Vetiver roots are commonly distilled this way (as are many other

plants). It is similar to steam distillation, but typically takes a

little more time and energy. The new way to distill some of the

flowers, which are too tender to be distilled themselves, is to first

extract the concrete from the flowers using solvents and then

hydrodistill the concrete.

As for vetiver, the essential oil varies widely depending on where it

is grown, whether it is steam distilled or hydrodistilled and whether

it was collected wild and distilled in India using the traditional

style of hydrodistillation. This type of Indian vetiver is the most

different than the others and I am wondering if that is the one that

you have?

Yes, I think you are right - that the new hydrodistilled and CO2

extracted concretes are very different and cannot just be substituted

for the corresponding absolute. They will create something different,

and your observation that you would create new perfumes around them

is quite valid...

Happy blending!

Will

Eden Botanicals

May 20, 2006

At 11:11 AM 5/19/2006, you wrote:

>This is something that I have been interested in as

>well. I recently purchased some Hydrodiffused Vetiver.

> (same thing I am supposing)....?

>Like the CO2's. It has a lighter more airy essence

>than the traditionally processed oil.

>I have also tried some of the CO2, Jasmines and Rose.

>These new oils/absolutes, etc...

Hi Zzz

Hydrodiffused? Hydrodistilled? Wassup? I'm confused again, lol.

The hydrodistilled essences I got were slightly more delicate than the

typical absolutes.

>Are nice, but different. To use them, new perfumes

>would have to be created around them. I have not found

>them to be a substitute in an already existing

>formula.

Exactly. Different, and, for the money, not " x " number of times stronger in

odor. I'm still trying to figure out why they're being produced.

>I think for someone looking to create clean, crisp

>perfumes, the new oils are just the thing, and I will

>probably take that route with them later on.

>But, an interested in whatever others have to say on

>the subject.

I'd be more apt to play with them if they didn't cost many times what the

usual stuff costs. I can be experimental and say yes, there is a new avenue

opened for all of us, and yes, there are those among us who have clients

with the big bucks that we can create much pricier perfumes, but it's just

given me a lot to think about in the long run.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with them. I'm of the belief that they

haven't made their way out into the general natural perfumery public too

much, perhaps due to scarcity, lack of distribution, and yes, cost.

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

May 20, 2006

At 11:11 AM 5/19/2006, you wrote:

>This is something that I have been interested in as

>well. I recently purchased some Hydrodiffused Vetiver.

> (same thing I am supposing)....?

>Like the CO2's. It has a lighter more airy essence

>than the traditionally processed oil.

>I have also tried some of the CO2, Jasmines and Rose.

>These new oils/absolutes, etc...

Hi Zzz

Hydrodiffused? Hydrodistilled? Wassup? I'm confused again, lol.

The hydrodistilled essences I got were slightly more delicate than the

typical absolutes.

>Are nice, but different. To use them, new perfumes

>would have to be created around them. I have not found

>them to be a substitute in an already existing

>formula.

Exactly. Different, and, for the money, not " x " number of times stronger in

odor. I'm still trying to figure out why they're being produced.

>I think for someone looking to create clean, crisp

>perfumes, the new oils are just the thing, and I will

>probably take that route with them later on.

>But, an interested in whatever others have to say on

>the subject.

I'd be more apt to play with them if they didn't cost many times what the

usual stuff costs. I can be experimental and say yes, there is a new avenue

opened for all of us, and yes, there are those among us who have clients

with the big bucks that we can create much pricier perfumes, but it's just

given me a lot to think about in the long run.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with them. I'm of the belief that they

haven't made their way out into the general natural perfumery public too

much, perhaps due to scarcity, lack of distribution, and yes, cost.

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

May 20, 2006

At 12:55 PM 5/19/2006, you wrote:

>Hi Zz,

>

>Actually, the Vetiver hydrodiffused is a different process than the

>hydrodiffused floral concretes. Here's the difference:

>

>Hydrodistillation (hydrodiffusion) is a common (and old, accepted)

>method of distilling plant materials to obtain essential oils.

>Vetiver roots are commonly distilled this way (as are many other

>plants). It is similar to steam distillation, but typically takes a

>little more time and energy. The new way to distill some of the

>flowers, which are too tender to be distilled themselves, is to first

>extract the concrete from the flowers using solvents and then

>hydrodistill the concrete.

Thanks for clarifying that for all of us, Will. The vetiver hydro history

makes sense. The new way to hydrodistill the *concrete* is an eyeopener.

>Yes, I think you are right - that the new hydrodistilled and CO2

>extracted concretes are very different and cannot just be substituted

>for the corresponding absolute. They will create something different,

>and your observation that you would create new perfumes around them

>is quite valid...

Will, since you are so in tune with the business end of the extraction

processes, could you fill us in on the reason and economics of the new

style of hydrodistillation of the concretes? The product that results is

not superion (IMO) to the absolute, but the price is astronomical. Next

week I'll have some time to dilute and evaluate some tuberose hydro v.

tuberose absolute side-by-side and see the differences. I'll report back.

Anya

http://artisannaturalperfumers.com The Artisan Natural Perfumers Guild

http://.com The premier site on beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Biggest, most dynamic natural perfumery chat group

May 20, 2006

> Will, since you are so in tune with the business end of the extraction

> processes, could you fill us in on the reason and economics of the new

> style of hydrodistillation of the concretes? The product that

> results is

> not superion (IMO) to the absolute, but the price is astronomical.

> Next

> week I'll have some time to dilute and evaluate some tuberose hydro v.

> tuberose absolute side-by-side and see the differences. I'll report

> back.

>

> Anya

Hi Anya,

I am very interested in your (and others) evaluation and

experimentation of the hydrodistilled floral concretes. I really do

not know much about them and have not even sampled them yet. And for

now we would not be able to carry them due to the pricing issues...

And so I can only make guesses here (and perhaps others can let me

know if I am correct or not). I think that it is a new process that

some creative person tried and it worked. Why did they try it? Well,

they distill essential oils and experiment with various plants and

techniques. And got the idea to try distilling the floral concretes.

It was a brilliant idea and a new product was created...

These oils are much more expensive than the absolutes because less

end product is produced. It simply costs more to produce a smaller

quantity of the end product. What are these products? Essential OIls?

Absolutes? Hydrodistilled Tuberose? I think that they are a new item

and to call them Hydrodistilled Tuberose for instance, is misleading.

Hydrodistilled Tuberose from the concrete would better.

Much of the above holds true for the CO2 extracted floral concretes.

However, the yield is better because more of the constituents come

through to the final product. It is easier to control which

constituents come through using CO2 as the solvent versus using

steam. The CO2 extracts also are not as concentrated. And while they

are slightly more expensive than the corresponding absolutes they are

not 6 times more expensive...

BTW, I tried the Tuberose CO2 from the concrete, but it was not that

interesting (as compared to the absolute) like the Jasmines and the

rose are, so we are not planning on carrying it.

Will

Eden Botanicals

May 20, 2006