Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 This sentence led me to believe that perhaps the majority of her ingredients in the scents are natural? Does anyone know? Thanks, Jeanie Hi Jeanie, I was intrigued, so I went to visit the Antonia's Flowers website. She describes notes that are not in production: honeysuckle, freesia, and lily of the valley, among others. None of these notes can be truly replicated using only naturals, to the best of my knowledge. I have some old formulas for each, and the results are pleasant, but a far cry from the smell of those flowers in nature. I do know that all three of them can be created from a combination of naturals and synthetics. On her site, she also mentions going to " the perfumer for the leading essential oil house in the country. " Maybe others can suggest who that might be, but I sure don't know of any true " essential oil house " in our country, let alone one that employs a trained perfumer. This was even more true in 1985, when she states she made this visit. We have some companies that produce a few selected oils (citrus oils come to mind), but none that produce a full range of oils and, especially, floral absolutes. We do, however, have major offices of major producers of synthetics (along with some naturals) such as International Flavors and Fragrances, Givaudan, and others. They employ many trained perfumers. Some of the French essential oil houses now also have offices here, and may employ perfumers here. All of this makes me believe that Antonia's descriptions are more marketing than fact. You asked whether a majority of her ingredients are natural, and I would guess that they are. But, that doesn't make them natural perfumes. S teve Earl Glen Custom Perfumery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 >describes notes that are not in production: honeysuckle, freesia, and lily >of the valley, among others. Honeysuckle is available... and produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 On Sun, 12 Mar 2006, -= C Ã^_ =- wrote: > >describes notes that are not in production: honeysuckle, freesia, and lily > >of the valley, among others. > > Honeysuckle is available... and produced. Hi Chris! Would you know anyone who makes honeysuckle available to small time retail buyers like me? TIA, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 > > > > > > This sentence led me to believe that > perhaps the majority of her ingredients in the scents are natural? > Does anyone know? > > Thanks, > Jeanie > > Hi Jeanie, > > I was intrigued, so I went to visit the Antonia's Flowers website. She > describes notes that are not in production: honeysuckle, freesia, and lily > of the valley, among others. According to Mandy Aftel's book Essence and Alchemy, she states " ...it is a telltale signthat a perfume is made from syntheics if it contains any of the following flowers, because they cannot be rendered naturally: freesia, honeysuckle, violet, tulip,lily, gardenia, heliotrope, orchid, lilac, and lily of the Valley. " I have seen some of these for sale as essential oils or absolutes, but unless these are incredibly expensive, they are most likely synthetic. I think there are many who use some natural elements, but for the most part unless they specify all natural and no synthetics, you can be sure they are using symthetics. And usually the synthetics make up a magority of ingredients. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Hi Chris > Honeysuckle is available... and produced. Do you know where and/or by whom ? TIA Bella from Tel Aviv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Some of these do make enfleurrage though, honeysuckle for instance, though it's a very stained pomade at the end. It's an awful amount of work but they flower profusely and for a long period. It's one of the first I made as a girl; iirc we just used it up in pot pourri. I thought Gardenia and lily of the valley were suitable for the same process too. The range of materials discussed on this list is fascinating, I know those that I grow or can find easily, or know of from old texts but so many are new to me. Thanks for all the information and links. Cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 07:44:13 -0000, you wrote: > According to Mandy Aftel's book Essence and Alchemy, she > states " ...it is a telltale sign that a perfume is made from synthetics > if it contains any of the following flowers, because they cannot be > rendered naturally: freesia, honeysuckle, violet, tulip,lily, > gardenia, heliotrope, orchid, lilac, and lily of the Valley. " Aside from the cost, which of course is expensive, honeysuckle* (aka, chevrefeuille), violet* and gardenia* have been available as absolutes to fine fragrance perfumers. Albeit, gardenia is more for " claim " than odor value. Of the above, I have used violet and honeysuckle. Gardenia was not cost effective. Freesia, tulip, lily, heliotrope, orchid, lilac and lily of the valley are not. There may be some out there, but strictly for academic purposes, with no commercial value. Therefore, the claim is for " odor " perception AND does not necessarily mean the actual extract from the flower is in the perfume. In any event, the above do not smell good, or correct. All the latter can be recreated very easily using common ingredients. Violet is a key note, not easily replicated, so it is still used. Mandy Aftel an authority? > " . . . it is a telltale sign that a perfume is made from synthetics > if it contains any of the following flowers . . " Could be, and IS for cheap fragrances, but not a absolute statement. > " . . because they cannot be rendered naturally . . " That is not correct. The question is the definition of " rendered naturally " . The fact remains that the ones I mention (*) are absolutes from the botanical. You can decide if this is natural or not. For the person that asked me who supplies these absolutes, just do a " Google " . Unfortunately what will be found are brokers and not the sources. -= ß =- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 At 08:22 AM 3/12/2006, you wrote: >On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 07:44:13 -0000, you wrote: >In any event, the above do not smell good, or correct. All the latter can be >recreated very easily using common ingredients. Violet is a key note, not >easily >replicated, so it is still used. > >Mandy Aftel an authority? > > > " . . . it is a telltale sign that a perfume is made from synthetics > > if it contains any of the following flowers . . because they cannot be > rendered naturally: freesia, honeysuckle, violet, tulip,lily, > gardenia, heliotrope, orchid, lilac, and lily of the Valley. " > " > >Could be, and IS for cheap fragrances, but not a absolute statement. When Mandy Aftel wrote that statement, as far as natural perfumery is concerned, it was true. However, in the years since 2001, several inventive natural perfumers have created doppelganger scents for violet flower (Ayala) and lilac flower (Terry). Their shared information is in the Files section. Luca Turin made a bit of a fool of himself by delcaring that the natural perfumers whose scents he evaluated (on a scent strip, not skin, BTW) were using synthetics, albeit unknowingly. Even after I explained to him (two times), it didn't sink in: they were using their doppelganger blends to mimic the scents. It can be done, and perhaps some day someone will dupe my favorite, daffodils. what about your opinion on the natural alpha ionone, from cassie flowers, and heliotropin natural? Anya http://.com The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume / Join to study natural perfumery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 > It can be done, and perhaps some day someone > will dupe my favorite, daffodils. Same as yellow jonquils? n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 > what about your opinion on the natural alpha ionone, from cassie flowers, and heliotropin natural? Never saw any " commercial " applications or neat product. Maybe for flavor use? I'm not a flavorist. Heliotropin natural? Heliotropin can be synthesized from a natural. The one I saw from China was too " technical " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 > what about your opinion on the natural alpha ionone, from cassie flowers, and heliotropin natural? Never saw any " commercial " applications or neat product. Maybe for flavor use? I'm not a flavorist. Heliotropin natural? Heliotropin can be synthesized from a natural. The one I saw from China was too " technical " . Goodmorning (here), I have a curiuos question about this thread, And I am enclosing a link to a site that claims to sell Naturals of the two above as well as many others. Is this site attempting to decieve customers? http://www.fleurchem.com/atoz.html Time for coffee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 > I have a curiuos question about this thread, And I am enclosing a link to a site that claims to sell Naturals of the two above as well as many others. Is this site attempting to decieve customers? > http://www.fleurchem.com/atoz.html Maybe you should contact them for specifics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 > > > I have a curiuos question about this thread, And I am enclosing a link to a site that claims to sell Naturals of the two above as well as many others. Is this site attempting to decieve customers? > > > http://www.fleurchem.com/atoz.html > > Maybe you should contact them for specifics. > I too, have been very interested in this topic and have been doing some research. Heliotropin(e) can be producted from natural materials including sassafras. When they do this production, they end up with a molecule that is described here (also with a nice picture) http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1005891.html however, an identical molecule can be manufactured without the use of sassafras. my guess is that there are probably cost differences involved. so i see no reason to doubt fleurchem, but phone calls are always good. i have many of these " aromachemicals " at my shop in Santa Cruz, including heliotropine and the ionones, and they are very interesting. If anyone wishes, I could send sample scent strips. I love violet, and grow it in my garden, and have been on a quest to get the closest scent possible. (to my nose, anyway) I tried enfleurage and tincturing; neither worked very well. I had long ago purchased from a vendor no longer in business a " true violet oil " that was supposed to be natural. it was quite expensive. but when i recently received my order of methyl ionone, i quickly realized that the " natural " violet oil was methyl ionone! (The aroma is so distinctive and penetrating, that even my untrained nose could recognize it) (lesson learned - buyer beware) i am still on the lookout to smell true violet oil, and one day hope to find it. but i have heard that it does not really smell like the flowers, as also can be said of other oils and absolutes (like carnation) I have blended Ayala's violet, playing with the proportions, and I agree, very beautiful fragrances that are reminiscent of the beauty of violet can be produced. And i really love these, and that's what botanical perfumery is all about. I am also playing with the older, pre-synth formulas found in many books. but from what I've experienced, there is no mistaking a violet accord made from botanical oils for methyl ionone, the " violet " aromachemical. If you get a chance to sniff methyl ionone, you'll know why. It seems to pierce your sense of smell in a peculiar way and is very strong, but very very violetty. The closest recipe to the violet flowers in my garden that i have found was non-botanical, by of Cranemoon, and was a formula that contained methyl ionone as well as other ingredients that I am playing with. So I guess my question is, for heliotropin and the other natural chemicals (not methyl ionone), if a molecule is produced from a natural substance, is it a " natural " ingredient? And if a completely identical in every way molecule is produced by mankind, (after all, a molecule is simply a grouping of atoms, and has a particular structure or vibration) which is indistinguishable from the former, can that too be used as a " natural " ingredient? I guess each perfumer would have to decide for themselves? I don't have the answer, but I find the quest very interesting and hoo boy am I learning a lot, bit by bit! -linda The Perfumer's Apprentice www.perfumersapprentice.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 On 12/03/06, s <lindaan@...> wrote: <BIG snip > if a molecule is produced from a natural substance, is it > a " natural " ingredient? And if a completely identical in every way > molecule is produced by mankind, (after all, a molecule is > simply a grouping of atoms, and has a particular structure or > vibration) which is indistinguishable from the > former, can that too be used as a " natural " ingredient? None chemist speaking here, but my understanding is that nature identical chemicals *don't* vibrate (or evolve - bond - with other atoms) and that is the difference between natural and synthetics. Perhaps that's how synth perfumes get the nasty, no development (bonding) aspect/staying power? It would be interesting to see if synths display any activity under Kirlian (sp?) photography (anyone know?) I guess each perfumer would have to decide for themselves? I don't > have the answer, but I find the quest very interesting and hoo boy am > I learning a lot, bit by bit! My decision would be if it man made (test tube) its not natural - full stop. ) Not that keen on the idea of isolates either. But others may differ.... LLx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Liz <liztams@...> wrote: It would be interesting to see if synths display any activity under Kirlian (sp?) photography (anyone know?) I read that synths do NOT show the aura of the comparable naturals... and they weren't able to really explain why. There were photos also which impressed me greatly (long before NP was an interest). It may have been in that famous book, " Chaos " (?) 10-15 years ago that introduced that new scientic concept... What was it? Something about a single beat of a butterfly's wing in Japan could create a sumani on the other side of the world? It'll look it up. Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 > > I have a curiuos question about this thread, And I am enclosing a link to a site that claims to sell Naturals of the two above as well as many others. Is this site attempting to decieve customers? > > > http://www.fleurchem.com/atoz.html Hi ! You might also want to check this link, www.moorelab.com. They provide Certification of Naturalness(both US & Europe). They not only offer heliotropine, natural but other synthetics like cinnamic aldehyde. :josephine --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 ....All of this makes me believe that > Antonia's descriptions are more marketing than fact. > > You asked whether a majority of her ingredients are natural, and I would > guess that they are. But, that doesn't make them natural perfumes. Steve Earl > I would have responded sooner but I recently came down with a really nasty bout of a cold! Still recovering. Thanks to Steve, , Anya and everyone else for their input. A fascinating continuing morphing thread as well on the topic of " what is natural " and kirlian photography. I decided to google Antonia's Flowers to see who the perfumer might be. It turns out it is Bernard Chant who created Gres Cabochard, Clinique's Aromtics Elixir, etc. Definitely not someone who worked an essential oil house! On another note,I just received my Arctander book by Allured. I am ecstatic to start reading my book but I have to mention that I was highly disappointed in the printing quality of such an expensive book! There are several pages where the printing has already faded or perhaps never " imprinted " correctly. I know I'm buying access to Arctander's impressive knowledge, but it's a shame that the printing quality could not be reflected on the exboritant price. Jeanie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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